Budget discussion - tax

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.greenncap.com/assessments/Mercedes-Benz-C-Class-2019-0013/

Diesel can be clean, what they need to do if up their game, and put in effect very strong limits for diesel, and let the manufactures reach those limits.
Mercedes proved it can be done.

ELM327

In the real world diesel is not clean.

BorneTobyWilde

ELM327 wrote: »

In the real world diesel is not clean.

They are real world tests. Has a clean air index same as a Nissan Leaf. It's hard to believe but it's true, no VW trickery going on, independently tested.

slicedpanman

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

In the real world diesel is not clean.

They are real world *tests*. Has a clean air index same as a Nissan Leaf. It's hard to believe but it's true, no VW trickery going on, independently tested.

ELM327

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

They are real world tests. Has a clean air index same as a Nissan Leaf. It's hard to believe but it's true, no VW trickery going on, independently tested.

That is not possible, to burn carbon fossil fuels you cannot just not emit anything, it's part of the chemical process of combustion.
Other than DEF what else have they used?

BorneTobyWilde

slicedpanman wrote: »

Green NCAP don't mess around. Mercedes have done what seemed impossible, a Zero Nox diesel

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be happy enough with system of a blanket €500 per year and then you can buy whatever car you want and not have to think about the tax aspect at all.


Unfortunately, that wouldn't be too long turning to €520. Then 535, then 570, and in ten years it'd be nearly and grand and would keep mounting.


People with cars are generally working, so they can't protest it. Easy target.

???? and where would the incentive to less fossil fuel engines come from?

cgcsb

MickH503 wrote: »

But there are a lot of people who cannot avail of home charging so their choice is petrol, diesel or plain hybrid, no?

Those people are apartment dwellers or people who live in townhouses with only on-street parking. Those people will be more likely to opt for no car at all in the future.

ELM327

cgcsb wrote: »

Those people are apartment dwellers or people who live in townhouses with only on-street parking. Those people will be more likely to opt for no car at all in the future.

As an apartment dweller with a home charger installed, I beg to differ.

cgcsb

ELM327 wrote: »

As an apartment dweller with a home charger installed, I beg to differ.

This isn't a common set up though.

heebusjeebus

ELM327 wrote: »

As an apartment dweller with a home charger installed, I beg to differ.

Eh, how does that work? Does the car fit in the lift?

Lumen

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Eh, how does that work? Does the car fit in the lift?

That reminds me, I just gave away a load of those long rubber safety mats with a cable channel. I could have sold them to EV owners to trail their cables over the footpath.

kanuseeme

ELM327 wrote: »

As an apartment dweller with a home charger installed, I beg to differ.

Who drives a diesel for now, till he gets a Tesla model 3/S

ELM327

cgcsb wrote: »

This isn't a common set up though.

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Eh, how does that work? Does the car fit in the lift?

The charger is in the carpark, which is outside the door to my block
It's not common because people aren't arsed. I know I'm not the first apartment owner to have a home charger installed. Another posts on boards and has put photos of his install.

kanuseeme wrote: »

Who drives a diesel for now, till he gets a Tesla model 3/S

The charger is still there though

heebusjeebus

Do you pay the electrify cost alone or is is a communal charger?

ELM327

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Do you pay the electrify cost alone or is is a communal charger?

It's mine linked to my meter

McGiver

unkel wrote:

It has been known for decades that diesel causes cancer. Somehow the attention in this country was put on the benefits of the efficiency of diesel engines (and thus the low CO2 emissions) back in 2008 when the Green Party made it into government and got their wish of low taxes on diesels.
Unfortunately this mistaken belief that diesel was good for the environment lead to Ireland being the country with the highest diesel car penetration in the world. For shame. Diesel vehicles unnessarily kill thousands of people a year in this country alone. If you regularly drive near towns / cities, please do not get a diesel vehicle. Ask yourself is saving a few bob for yourself in chape tax / fuel really worth contributing to killing people? Both my parents and my baby sister died of cancer (none related to people driving diesels) and it's a brutal way to die. Please move away from diesel.

Spot on. Can I sign this?

I'm also seriously anti-diesel, it's a carcinogenic shíte and should be banned immediately given what is known about the toxicity and impact on health. Diesel exhaust contains 15 different type 1 and type 3 carcinogens. Diesel kills. Full stop. Wherever diesel car goes it spreads the poison. Everyone including the children have to breathe the poison, and suffer. Is it worth saving a few quid but polluting your whole environment, killing children and making the country lose billions in healthcare and lost productivity?

If the Irish Government are cowards, can't admit this and ban it straight away, it will have to be heavily taxed to death. There's no other way.

McGiver

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

Green NCAP don't mess around. Mercedes have done what seemed impossible, a Zero Nox diesel

Nox is quote irrelevant. Benzene and all the diesel carcinogenic shíte is. Diesel is toxic and dirty, you can filter it as much as you want but you won't remove the carcinogenic nano particles which blast straight away to any of your cells and cause cancer.

Shefwedfan

zilog_jones wrote: »

They've also saved millions by not designing any more diesel engines for one market (Europe) when the rest of the world couldn't care less. And China are forcing them to make BEVs now. Unfortunately they wasted billions on hydrogen FCVs...

New Diesel engines are coming out, Vw etc are bringing in mild hybrid Diesel engines. Or that was plan last time I checked

Shefwedfan

This was posted on the motors forum just yesterday, this is why the government need to tax the ass out of diesel....the average Irish driver hasn’t a clue

60km is a long drive....


“I'm not doing loads of small drives. My main drive is 60km each way everyday. Then my second drive is usually a 30 mins each way drive on average day to different areas.

The Petrol suggestion is nonsense. I actually had a petrol car when I started this job + it was a nightmare. Couldn't handle the distance I was doing + was forever getting parts of it replaced. I need a diesel. I couldn't care less what the market does”

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This was posted on the motors forum just yesterday, this is why the government need to tax the ass out of diesel....the average Irish driver hasn’t a clue

60km is a long drive....


“I'm not doing loads of small drives. My main drive is 60km each way everyday. Then my second drive is usually a 30 mins each way drive on average day to different areas.

The Petrol suggestion is nonsense. I actually had a petrol car when I started this job + it was a nightmare. Couldn't handle the distance I was doing + was forever getting parts of it replaced. I need a diesel. I couldn't care less what the market does”

In fairness 60km each way is 120km per day plus the other 30 min driving around makes it close to 140-150
Similar to my use case, although I also do 300-400km at the weekends too (the hazards of rural living a dublin centered life)


Wouldn't be doing that in a petrol, the diesel would be cheaper.
No cheap EV will do it either, to do 150km comfortably in all weathers he's going to need an Ioniq/L40/new egolf etc

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

In fairness 60km each way is 120km per day plus the other 30 min driving around makes it close to 140-150
Similar to my use case, although I also do 300-400km at the weekends too (the hazards of rural living a dublin centered life)


Wouldn't be doing that in a petrol, the diesel would be cheaper.
No cheap EV will do it either, to do 150km comfortably in all weathers he's going to need an Ioniq/L40/new egolf etc

Its a crossover and talking about an automatic


I don't see the diesel doing that cheaper than a petrol. I would expect when you actually check it is nowhere near a 60km commute to from work and I doubt during the day anythign close to 150km is done......


This is brand new car and hope to keep for 3 year+. Over the 3 years and with expected rise in diesel it will cost her a fortune and be worthless at the end of it.

slave1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

...
This is brand new car and hope to keep for 3 year+. Over the 3 years and with expected rise in diesel it will cost her a fortune and be worthless at the end of it.

This post is really diluting the argument with a statement that a new car worthless after 3 years :rolleyes:

Pure gibberish

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

This post is really diluting the argument with a statement that a new car worthless after 3 years :rolleyes:

Pure gibberish

Well if she's really doing a 60k each way commute she'll be looking at at least 120k after 3 years. Probably 130+ with other trips
That will be a harder sell than a car with 60k on the clock, not "worthless" but "worth less"

Shefwedfan

slave1 wrote: »

This post is really diluting the argument with a statement that a new car worthless after 3 years :rolleyes:

Pure gibberish

Why is it diluting the argument? is TCO not a consideration if spending 30k on a new car?

First 60km is not diesel....only in Ireland would we consider diesel for it. If diesel/petrol was the same price at the pump you would not be buying a diesel for such a short trip.

Then the trips during the day are all short, again not for diesel.

So you are buying a diesel to do petrol mileage, at the same time the government is telling everyone that diesel is going to get hit hardest over the next few years.

Who exactly is going to want to buy a high mileage diesel cars in 3-4 years? ok not worthless but a lot harder to sell than a petrol equivalent.

Idbatterim

An off the wall taxation system based on emissions. Some bands have a tenner difference! Then one band has a difference of e1150! Diesels should start at a base rate of minimum e500!

mgn

Idbatterim wrote: »

An off the wall taxation system based on emissions. Some bands have a tenner difference! Then one band has a difference of e1150! Diesels should start at a base rate of minimum e500!

Why don't the reduce the tax on a petrol car instead of increasing the tax on diesel cars.Its this bulls*it increase tax on everything get on my nerves.
Why should i have to pay a minimum of €500 to tax my car so the likes of you feel good about yourself.

Shefwedfan

mgn wrote: »

Why don't the reduce the tax on a petrol car instead of increasing the tax on diesel cars.Its this bulls*it increase tax on everything get on my nerves.
Why should i have to pay a minimum of €500 to tax my car so the likes of you feel good about yourself.

I think you forget that the government have to balance the book....

The result of the 2008 change meant the income from car tax was reduced, do a google search and in 2011 it was reported in the press they would need to do something. A BMW which was bringing in 1000+ was suddenly only bringing in 300 quid.

That was never sustainable. Even if they didnt find out diesel was bad they would of had to change the system to grow back the income from cars.



A minimum of 500 euro for a diesel is small. People should buy a car to suit their needs, not because it has cheap tax.



If the system continues as is you might have a car with cheap tax, but you wont have any roads to drive it on




P.S I have a diesel, actually have 2 at the min:P

mgn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you forget that the government have to balance the book....

The result of the 2008 change meant the income from car tax was reduced, do a google search and in 2011 it was reported in the press they would need to do something. A BMW which was bringing in 1000+ was suddenly only bringing in 300 quid.

That was never sustainable. Even if they didnt find out diesel was bad they would of had to change the system to grow back the income from cars.



A minimum of 500 euro for a diesel is small. People should buy a car to suit their needs, not because it has cheap tax.



If the system continues as is you might have a car with cheap tax, but you wont have any roads to drive it on




P.S I have a diesel, actually have 2 at the min:P

Plenty of ways of balancing the books, like paying for water for a start where your car tax is diverted too.
Where does the likes of the new sugar tax go to.Nowhere where it should go but it looks good since we want to be world leaders nonsense.

Idbatterim

People usimg diesel for a few miles a day is a disgrace. Making it a minimum five hundred and their Arguament that they are saving a few cent a day will be null and void !

Taxes on diesel fuel should be raised in line with petrol too.

They could do far better things with that money including lowering the marginal rate of tax and reducing debt, improving infrastructure. Than continuing the error of allowing people nearly free motor tax , driving their tractor engines with the associated societal damage, to save a few cent a week, when they’ve no problem spending e6 on a pint!

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

People usimg diesel for a few miles a day is a disgrace. Making it a minimum five hundred and their Arguament that they are saving a few cent a day will be null and void !

Taxes on diesel fuel should be raised in line with petrol too.

They could do far better things with that money including lowering the marginal rate of tax and reducing debt, improving infrastructure. Than continuing the error of allowing people nearly free motor tax , driving their tractor engines with the associated societal damage, to save a few cent a week, when they’ve no problem spending e6 on a pint!

I use a diesel now for about 50k km per year.
We have a prius but it is a few MPG lower than the diesel and the fuel is 10cpl more expensive so it doesn't make sense
And my diesel isnt a fancy new one getting >60mpg, it's an 09 superb DSG and usually around from lowest 48-52 at best.

My commute is about 70% motorway 15% rural road and 15% urban stop start traffic. Because of the prius being crap on the motorway it drags it down. If it were all rural N roads and urban stop start stuff the prius would win.

charlieIRL

ELM327 wrote: »

In fairness 60km each way is 120km per day plus the other 30 min driving around makes it close to 140-150
Similar to my use case, although I also do 300-400km at the weekends too (the hazards of rural living a dublin centered life)


Wouldn't be doing that in a petrol, the diesel would be cheaper.
No cheap EV will do it either, to do 150km comfortably in all weathers he's going to need an Ioniq/L40/new egolf etc

This is almost identical to my daily commute & weekend driving. I had to use a petrol car when my own diesel was in a garage a few years ago and my fuel bill nearly trebled for the 2 weeks I used it!!

When looking at EV's i also looked at hybrids and all salesmen told me EV is the way to go. I want to make the change ASAP too.

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

I use a diesel now for about 50k km per year.
We have a prius but it is a few MPG lower than the diesel and the fuel is 10cpl more expensive so it doesn't make sense
And my diesel isnt a fancy new one getting >60mpg, it's an 09 superb DSG and usually around from lowest 48-52 at best.

My commute is about 70% motorway 15% rural road and 15% urban stop start traffic. Because of the prius being crap on the motorway it drags it down. If it were all rural N roads and urban stop start stuff the prius would win.

But you're talking about a Gen 2 Prius, right? That tech is over 15 years old now, the current Camry (2.5 petrol) will be better on fuel than your Superb, never mind the smaller hybrids. Efficiency at motorway speeds is no longer an issue.

ELM327

charlieIRL wrote: »

This is almost identical to my daily commute & weekend driving. I had to use a petrol car when my own diesel was in a garage a few years ago and my fuel bill nearly trebled for the 2 weeks I used it!!

When looking at EV's i also looked at hybrids and all salesmen told me EV is the way to go. I want to make the change ASAP too.

EV is the way to go if you are spending 40k anyway and happy with a hyundai/kia/nissan, for sure. Anyone buying a new car should buy an EV for sure.


It's not so clear cut in the second hand market where comparable tech is a lot cheaper in petrol, diesel and HEV. Including much higher fuel cost.

zilog_jones wrote: »

But you're talking about a Gen 2 Prius, right? That tech is over 15 years old now, the current Camry (2.5 petrol) will be better on fuel than your Superb, never mind the smaller hybrids. Efficiency at motorway speeds is no longer an issue.

True but then I have to spend over 30k for the new camry whereas the old prius cost me 4.5k a couple of years ago and probably now worth less than 3k


Comparing like with like, 3k 10 yr old diesel and 3k 10 year old HEV.
A new diesel will get better than 48-52mpg too.


I love the camry, but it's a very expensive car that you still need to buy fossil fuel for.

zilog_jones

Well the tax changes are mostly going to affect new cars, so saying hybrids are not that efficient is misleading considering what is available now compared to 10+ years ago.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

Well the tax changes are mostly going to affect new cars, so saying hybrids are not that efficient is misleading considering what is available now compared to 10+ years ago.

It's not misleading when it is true for me in my experience.


Buying anew car now that's not an EV is madness anyway.

mgn

https://stats.beepbeep.ie/

People are changing without new taxes.Have a look at the stats, it just proves that you don't need to change anything.No douth someone will be along to say if its not done overnight we're all doomed.Can't understand why people cant see it's just a revenue making exercise.

mouthful

September1 wrote: »

Here is document if someone is interested in more details https://assets.gov.ie/19116/c447474fea5e422080a6384b7a84fbed.pdf - it seems that new system is geared toward expensive cars, look at how it will affect most Teslas assuming OMSP will be adjusted in line with new VRT rates:

Model 3 SR+ starts at 48k will be starting now at 55k
Model 3 AWD LR starts at 58k will be 58k
Model 3 Performance starts at 63k will be 61k
Model S 95k LR to 92k
Model S Performance 114k to 110k
Model X LR 102k to 98k
Model X Performance 121k to 116k

If they implement the above, anyone going for model 3 all wheel drive could secure fsd for very little extra.

September1

Updated calculation on Tesla using following method, starting with quoted VRT amount:
1. Add 5k to VRT amount and note this nondiscounted VRT
2. Divide nondiscounted VRT by 14% and get OMSP
3. Take away nondiscounted VRT from OMSP to get "base price"
4. Divide "base price" by 93% to get new OMSP with 7% VRT
5. Take away 5k SEAI grant from this new OMSP

Model 3:
SR+ 47840 47577
LR AWD 58410 57353
PERF 63061 61653

Model S:
LR 95399 91561
Perf 114993 109620

Model X:
LR 102027 97691
Perf 121213 115443

Idbatterim

There should be a rate of say e250 for electric and minimum e400 petrol and 600 diesel. Theyll think twice about doing 6,000 km per annum in a diesel then ! Diesel duty will rise to that of petrol over next few budgets. Was just reading earlier how they have virtually nothing for the budget in terms of spending outside what is already committed , like rural broadband , National children hospital etc , in likely the last budget of this government!

Car99

Idbatterim wrote: »

There should be a rate of say e250 for electric and minimum e400 petrol and 600 diesel. Theyll think twice about doing 6,000 km per annum in a diesel then ! Diesel duty will rise to that of petrol over next few budgets. Was just reading earlier how they have virtually nothing for the budget in terms of spending outside what is already committed , like rural broadband , National children hospital etc , in likely the last budget of this government!

Will the replacement government be any different. No. The system is fooked.

unkel

Idbatterim wrote: »

There should be a rate of say e250 for electric and minimum e400 petrol and 600 diesel. Theyll think twice about doing 6,000 km per annum in a diesel then

In the Netherlands on the old pre-emissions tax system, the motor tax on a diesel was always 3 times higher than on a petrol (as in €2000 instead of €700). So only people who did serious intercity mileage ever bought diesels. That was the place for diesels, not doing much harm.

Unfortunately the green party over here tried to tell us cancer causing diesels were good for the environment, even if driven mostly in cities :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

That’s interesting unkel. On financial and “ environmental “ grounds , not that they give a toss about it , but it’s lookd like the public are starting too (so they’ll come up with optic bull**** ) there is no way given how constrained they are financially, that they won’t or can’t touch motor related revenue this budget... rightfully so In my opinion , we all use the same roads , why are many driving around their cancer boxes for e200 a year! It’s an absolute joke !

mouthful

So the times they are achanging https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/motor-trade-told-no-grants-for-electric-cars-until-after-budget-1.4010306

McGiver

unkel wrote: »

Idbatterim wrote: »

There should be a rate of say e250 for electric and minimum e400 petrol and 600 diesel. Theyll think twice about doing 6,000 km per annum in a diesel then

In the Netherlands on the old pre-emissions tax system, the motor tax on a diesel was always 3 times higher than on a petrol (as in €2000 instead of €700). So only people who did serious intercity mileage ever bought diesels. That was the place for diesels, not doing much harm.

Unfortunately the green party over here tried to tell us cancer causing diesels were good for the environment, even if driven mostly in cities :rolleyes:

The government are clowns. They insist on diesel ban by 2030 and 960k EVs on the ground by 2030 but are doing absolutely nothing to achieve those goals.

We don't really need publicly owned infrastructure, but they could do this:
- legislate mandatory provision of chargers in malls, shopping places, carparks, public service places (from schools to whatever), new estate developments etc.
- legislate regulatory framework and incentives for private companies to install chargers
- legislate incentives or mandatory provision of FCP for any service stations on M roads at least (potentially N roads too)
- legislate EVs to be able to use bus lanes
- legislate LAs requiring to allow free car parking in their areas
- legislate motor tax overhaul (based on CO2, NOX and PM emissions - EV = 0)
- legislate VRT overhaul (based on CO2, NOX and PM emissions - EV = 0 no cap)
- abolish direct EV grant
- legislate VAT exemption for EVs
Etc etc

n97 mini

McGiver wrote: »

The government are clowns. They insist on diesel ban by 2030 and 960k EVs on the ground by 2030 but are doing absolutely nothing to achieve those goals.

We don't really need publicly owned infrastructure, but they could do this:
- legislate mandatory provision of chargers in malls, shopping places, carparks, public service places (from schools to whatever), new estate developments etc.
- legislate regulatory framework and incentives for private companies to install chargers
- legislate incentives or mandatory provision of FCP for any service stations on M roads at least (potentially N roads too)
- legislate EVs to be able to use bus lanes
- legislate LAs requiring to allow free car parking in their areas
- legislate motor tax overhaul (based on CO2, NOX and PM emissions - EV = 0)
- legislate VRT overhaul (based on CO2, NOX and PM emissions - EV = 0 no cap)
- abolish direct EV grant
- legislate VAT exemption for EVs
Etc etc

There isn't even consistent signage or parking rules at CPs! That'd be a start.

Alkers

McGiver wrote: »

- legislate EVs to be able to use bus lanes

This would be the worst thing they could possibly do, could you imagine Dublin ffs, we'd be back to square one.

All they really need to do is fix the rapid charging network, let businesses etc look after destination chargers if they want them. It already makes financial sense to run an EV, we don't need half these incentives you're talking about.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

There isn't even consistent signage or parking rules at CPs! That'd be a start.

They even have this in the North of Ireland ffs.
We really can't tell our ar$e from our elbow when it comes to joined up thinking

liamog

There are only two bits of legislation I'd like to see.

1. Force the facilitation of installation of AC charging in multiple unit dwellings (i.e. apartment and managed estates)
2. Require contact less payment at all rapid charging infrastructure

KCross

liamog wrote: »

There are only two bits of legislation I'd like to see.

1. Force the facilitation of installation of AC charging in multiple unit dwellings (i.e. apartment and managed estates)
2. Require contact less payment at all rapid charging infrastructure

Wasnt item 1 already done?

It applies to all new developments and also to existing developments where significant redevelopment is taking place.

You cant retrospectively force private properties to install charge points but you can attach any conditions you like to planning permissions.