Budget 2020 new motor tax scale

road_high

Phileas Frog wrote: »

It's still kite flying, seeing how the _proposals_ are received.

Very badly I would hope and the dopes “might” listen. You can’t keep lumping taxes upon taxes and expect revenue to increase. A point cones when it’s just too much and we are well at that tipping point now

lalababa

Had major difficulty understanding the IT article. Seem hard to defrienciate between VRT changes and motor tax changes.
What exactly are they kite flying? Thanks.

bazz26

The world's most expensive children's hospital, National Broadband program, etc all need to be paid for. We also have to keep shoveling money into that bottomless pit that is the Health Service.

lalababa

lalababa wrote: »

Had major difficulty understanding the IT article. Seem hard to defrienciate between VRT changes and motor tax changes.
What exactly are they kite flying? Thanks.

Edit: like the 1st list is titled new motor tax rates...and they have co2 bands and corresponding rates but they give the rates in %s ...like %s of what??

R.O.R

lalababa wrote: »

Edit: like the 1st list is titled new motor tax rates...and they have co2 bands and corresponding rates but they give the rates in %s ...like %s of what??

VRT %'s

terrydel

lalababa wrote: »

Had major difficulty understanding the IT article. Seem hard to defrienciate between VRT changes and motor tax changes.
What exactly are they kite flying? Thanks.

I agree, its dreadfully written. That was my first thought on it.
They are kite flying the planned changes, to see what reaction they get. Classic government tactic.

terrydel

bazz26 wrote: »

The world's most expensive children's hospital, National Broadband program, etc all need to be paid for. We also have to keep shoveling money into that bottomless pit that is the Health Service.

And servicing the unprecedented debt they saddled us with, and our children, grandchildren etc etc.

Henry Ford III

There's a big risk of the Government levying so much tax on cars that it'll be into diminishing marginal returns soon.

terrydel

Henry Ford III wrote: »

There's a big risk of the Government levying so much tax on cars that it'll be into diminishing marginal returns soon.

Very possibly.
But these things are drawn up by bean counters, they come up with a target they want to achieve and then dream up methods of getting at least that amount, and probably pick the one that they calculate will be the most advantageous in terms of getting reelected.
I dont think any other form of thinking goes into it.

NIMAN

I thought I'd be moving out of my diesel soon to a petrol, as I could see the Gov taxing the hell out of diesel to get people to stop buying them, but reading this it looks like they might hit petrol nearly as hard?

road_high

NIMAN wrote: »

I thought I'd be moving out of my diesel soon to a petrol, as I could see the Gov taxing the hell out of diesel to get people to stop buying them, but reading this it looks like they might hit petrol nearly as hard?

Yes this is a revenue increasing exercise so all possibilities will be hit hard.

jmreire

NIMAN wrote: »

I thought I'd be moving out of my diesel soon to a petrol, as I could see the Gov taxing the hell out of diesel to get people to stop buying them, but reading this it looks like they might hit petrol nearly as hard?

The end game is that all ICE powered vehicles will be gone,,leaving only EV's, and this is only the beginning to get the ball rolling. Year on year, it will get progressively more and more expensive to run Petrol / Diesel cars.:(

road_high

jmreire wrote: »

The end game is that all ICE powered vehicles will be gone,,leaving only EV's, and this is only the beginning to get the ball rolling. Year on year, it will get progressively more and more expensive to run Petrol / Diesel cars.:(

And a raft of new ways to replace the taxes on those with new ones on EVs. This is a terrible approach and not a fraction of the disquiet over water charges (which unlike these was a fair and rationale charge).

Micky 32

mgn wrote: »

A few Mickey Mouse Councillors and 2 MEPs.Wait and see what the will get in the next election.Hopefully the next election will be after the budget and when people see how much this greenwave is going to cost them it will be more like a little ripple.

What about all these students with their climate change protests especially if a lot of them are 18 plus, the Greens could get a hell of a lot of votes in the next election?

road_high

Micky 32 wrote: »

What about all these students with their climate change protests especially if a lot of them are 18 plus, the Greens could get a hell of a lot of votes in the next election?

The idealistic clowns will soon learn when they see half their future payslip evaporate to pay for this non sense.
I’m mid 30s and the younger ones have way better cars than we ever had and more of them. Audi A4s and Mini how are ya!

mgn

road_high wrote: »

The idealistic clowns will soon learn when they see half their future payslip evaporate to pay for this non sense.
I’m mid 30s and the younger ones have way better cars than we ever had and more of them. Audi A4s and Mini how are ya!

No sign of them protesting lately,probably flying around Europe on their holidays and then come back and tell us about saving the planet.

road_high

mgn wrote: »

No sign of them protesting lately,probably flying around Europe on their holidays and then come back and tell us about saving the planet.

Exactly. Same clowns off to the states on J1s, clubbing hols to Spain and rugby in England. Clearly preachy teachers have been brainwashing too

mgn

Micky 32 wrote: »

What about all these students with their climate change protests especially if a lot of them are 18 plus, the Greens could get a hell of a lot of votes in the next election?

The might get a few new TDs but the will be one hit wonders after the go into government with whoever takes them.Still long enough to do more damage like the last time the were in.

Philb76

Where will this leave the average 1 litre to 1.5 petrol car

Not a chance there will be anything close to the increases in that article. The government want to get re-elected and pulling a stunt like in that article will load them votes hand over fist.

I wish the gov and Eu would just pi** off and let us buy petrol and diesel cars at a reasonable price and tax then cheaply and forget all this nonsense that’s currently going on.

road_high

Saul Thundering Revenue wrote: »

Not a chance there will be anything close to the increases in that article. The government want to get re-elected and pulling a stunt like in that article will load them votes hand over fist.

I wish the gov and Eu would just pi** off and let us buy petrol and diesel cars at a reasonable price and tax then cheaply and forget all this nonsense that’s currently going on.

Taxation is not the answer to climate change- investment and incentives into alternative are- but which is the cheaper easier option for central govt?

bazz26

road_high wrote: »

Taxation is not the Irish answer to climate change and everything else- investment and incentives into alternative are- but which is the cheaper easier option for central give?

Adjusted your post there.

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

Adjusted your post there.

Very true. Wearing a bit thin though now

bazz26

Our problem is that the political establishment and voting here hasn't or won't change much. Take the last recession, FF were punished for all their austerity policies, the Greens were wiped out for getting into bed with them. So people voted for "change" and put FG and Labour in - wash, rinse and repeat.

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

Our problem is that the political establishment and voting here hasn't or won't change much. Take the last recession, FF were punished for all their austerity policies, the Greens were wiped out for getting into bed with them. So people voted for "change" and put FG and Labour in - wash, rinse and repeat.

I suppose but what is the alternative? A SF Clare Daly coalition? FF FG might be bad but the alternative is anarchy

bazz26

See that's the problem, the system and policies remain the same - only the names change.

Black_Knight

Philb76 wrote: »

Where will this leave the average 1 litre to 1.5 petrol car

Depends on the average CO2 emissions from 1-1.5 liter petrol cars. Engine size doesn't matter, CO2 emissions do.*


* I'm aware the bigger the engine, generally the more CO2 emissions.

Atlantic Dawn

The motor tax on your car should never change from the moment you purchase the car, by all means adjust the rates for brand new cars to influence the purchase of them.

ShadowHearth

There was no tax increase on cars for very long time. Every year we expected a nicely lubed up government 12 incher, but it never came.
This year could be the year when they will take out 16 incher and ram it up, to make up for those years.
I would call for a flat fee on all cars as well. Something like 500eu no matter what it is. Put in system where you can't Dodge it too. There is still a sea of tax non payers. I find it extremely funny when those who have only 280eu tax and still don't pay it. My cars in the last 14 years where minimum 2.0 in old tax system and I payed 800eu ( 4x200eu) on the dot. My current car has the smallest tax I ever had 390eu and it's super cheap for me comparing to old days.
I don't like tax like any other person, but it is a tax and needs to be payed. If you don't pay, then those who actually pay it will pay more, because of you.
One thing that really makes situation hilarious, is that it will make new cars so damn expensive again! People won't buy new and the boys in charge will do some "save the dealers" program, which will cost tax payer more money again lol.
There is already something very wrong when 30k eu will barely buy you a half Paddy spec family hatch. And that's ICE!
So you want us to go and buy EV? 30k will buy you **** all in EV form.

Shefwedfan

Is anyone surprised they are changing the tax system for cars. Let take electric out of the loop.

I said this in early 2010's and quick google and I find the following:
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/motor-tax-headache-for-government-1.611658

People swapped a BWM at over 1000 tax to a new BMW at less than 200. The revenue from car tax was falling and even if it turned out today that diesel is very very clean the revenue for car tax is going too low they would of had to change the system.

This time last year they released the "pay per km" which was actually a good idea but people wouldn't accept it. Paying more for driving more made sense to me but people kicked up....

So this year they try option two. Keep the same sort of system just new bands. It might be simpler to understand. People will complain but then again the government got hammered after last budget because they done nothing.

I see the post about SIMI concerned about this, they will love it. New car sales are down because Ireland is the current ground for diesels from the UK. Ok so some SIMI dealers are bringing them in but majority is lads with garages on back street or more than ever people just driving over themselves. Also selling on donedeal. None of this is bringing in revenue to SIMI/Car dealers and of course the government.

The government has to bring in X revenue from cars each year...

mgn

ShadowHearth wrote: »

There was no tax increase on cars for very long time. Every year we expected a nicely lubed up government 12 incher, but it never came.
This year could be the year when they will take out 16 incher and ram it up, to make up for those years.
I would call for a flat fee on all cars as well. Something like 500eu no matter what it is. Put in system where you can't Dodge it too. There is still a sea of tax non payers. I find it extremely funny when those who have only 280eu tax and still don't pay it. My cars in the last 14 years where minimum 2.0 in old tax system and I payed 800eu ( 4x200eu) on the dot. My current car has the smallest tax I ever had 390eu and it's super cheap for me comparing to old days.
I don't like tax like any other person, but it is a tax and needs to be payed. If you don't pay, then those who actually pay it will pay more, because of you.
One thing that really makes situation hilarious, is that it will make new cars so damn expensive again! People won't buy new and the boys in charge will do some "save the dealers" program, which will cost tax payer more money again lol.
There is already something very wrong when 30k eu will barely buy you a half Paddy spec family hatch. And that's ICE!
So you want us to go and buy EV? 30k will buy you **** all in EV form.

Do you work in Government or in Revenue,Why should someone with a little Micra have to pay a €500 flat fee as you suggested, and line "it is a tax that needs to payed" Motor Tax is now diverted into a central fund to pay for the likes of water that other f*uckers refused to pay for and get away with it.
But hit the motorist every time because most people that have a car need it to get to work.

mgn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is anyone surprised they are changing the tax system for cars. Let take electric out of the loop.

I said this in early 2010's and quick google and I find the following:
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/motor-tax-headache-for-government-1.611658

People swapped a BWM at over 1000 tax to a new BMW at less than 200. The revenue from car tax was falling and even if it turned out today that diesel is very very clean the revenue for car tax is going too low they would of had to change the system.

This time last year they released the "pay per km" which was actually a good idea but people wouldn't accept it. Paying more for driving more made sense to me but people kicked up....

So this year they try option two. Keep the same sort of system just new bands. It might be simpler to understand. People will complain but then again the government got hammered after last budget because they done nothing.

I see the post about SIMI concerned about this, they will love it. New car sales are down because Ireland is the current ground for diesels from the UK. Ok so some SIMI dealers are bringing them in but majority is lads with garages on back street or more than ever people just driving over themselves. Also selling on donedeal. None of this is bringing in revenue to SIMI/Car dealers and of course the government.

The government has to bring in X revenue from cars each year...

Don't worry about the poor SIMI dealers their is very few of them that is not importing at the moment.As for the Government there doing very well with out of all the VRT there taking in at the moment.

Shefwedfan

mgn wrote: »

Don't worry about the poor SIMI dealers their is very few of them that is not importing at the moment.As for the Government there doing very well with out of all the VRT there taking in at the moment.

Not as well from selling a new car

Sam Russell

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not as well from selling a new car

A new car gives them the VAT as well.

ShadowHearth

mgn wrote: »

Do you work in Government or in Revenue,Why should someone with a little Micra have to pay a €500 flat fee as you suggested, and line "it is a tax that needs to payed" Motor Tax is now diverted into a central fund to pay for the likes of water that other f*uckers refused to pay for and get away with it.
But hit the motorist every time because most people that have a car need it to get to work.

If that would be a flat tax, then people would buy cars the ones they need or want and not the cars that have cheap tax. Ireland was always mad about cheap tax and put it as main point when buying car. Look what happened in 2008. People just bought diesels when they did not needed them just because cheap tax. Killing petrol cars in the process and making a lot more environmental damage.
I need car to drive to work too. My daily commute is 130km with no public transport available. You missed the point where I pay less then 500eu and I would gladly pay that if there would be system like this. And I bought car that I wanted, which is petrol and tax was the last on my list when I made decision.

mgn

ShadowHearth wrote: »

If that would be a flat tax, then people would buy cars the ones they need or want and not the cars that have cheap tax. Ireland was always mad about cheap tax and put it as main point when buying car. Look what happened in 2008. People just bought diesels when they did not needed them just because cheap tax. Killing petrol cars in the process and making a lot more environmental damage.
I need car to drive to work too. My daily commute is 130km with no public transport available. You missed the point where I pay less then 500eu and I would gladly pay that if there would be system like this. And I bought car that I wanted, which is petrol and tax was the last on my list when I made decision.

The person that buys a Micra or Yaris is not going to buy a 7 series BMW just because the tax is the same,that's why i would not favor a flat tax.

NIMAN

P erhaps this is just kite flying for now, see how we all react?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'm all for carbon taxes, but let's do it in a way that motorists can plan for the next 5 years.
Moderate increase every year and people can save their deposits for EV cars and the motoring industry know to wind down selling diesel cars
And hybrid should be a viable alternative

I actually saw a queue of EVs at a charging point yesterday on the way from the west to Dublin

Every town along a major road will need a bank of 10+ charging points in order to meet demand

wheres Electro when you need him ....

Shefwedfan

Sam Russell wrote: »

A new car gives them the VAT as well.

Thats the point, they make more from a new car than an import from UK

Sam Russell

mgn wrote: »

The person that buys a Micra or Yaris is not going to buy a 7 series BMW just because the tax is the same,that's why i would not favor a flat tax.

A choice between a Diesel or petrol 2 l car will be the decision. Diesel is plus €1,000 to buy but €230 tax per year where the petrol tax is €450. Diesel does 7 l per 100 km, while the petrol does 9 l per 100 km. (figure made up).

You do your sums and make your choice. But most see the tax as the breaking point for many.

Most cars are bought new by business users.

Shefwedfan

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'm all for carbon taxes, but let's do it in a way that motorists can plan for the next 5 years.
Moderate increase every year and people can save their deposits for EV cars and the motoring industry know to wind down selling diesel cars
And hybrid should be a viable alternative

I actually saw a queue of EVs at a charging point yesterday on the way from the west to Dublin

Every town along a major road will need a bank of 10+ charging points in order to meet demand

The government announced the electric cars and networking in 2012.....so they have given 8 years for people to move.....unfortunately the majority didn't bother.....during those 8 years second hand electric car could be got for cheap compared to the prices now.....

NaFirinne

Does any ever feel like we just need to scrap All Taxes, Laws, Government and start again from the Drawing board.

Shefwedfan

NaFirinne wrote: »

Does any ever feel like we just need to scrap All Taxes, Laws, Government and start again from the Drawing board.

The problem is people/world changes...people have different requirements



So scrap and start again, and some people would complain. Then in 5 years time it would be outdated and we would be back to square one


You give people free stuff and they will complain because they didntget enought free stuff.....

Sam Russell

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The government announced the electric cars and networking in 2012.....so they have given 8 years for people to move.....unfortunately the majority didn't bother.....during those 8 years second hand electric car could be got for cheap compared to the prices now.....

Well, the motor manufacturers are hardly producing relevant vehicles.

There is:

1. Tesla - very high spec and price to match and only available in Ireland recently.

2. Nissan Leaf - been on the market since 2011. A basic car, but not cheap even with the incentives.

3. The VW eGolf. Horrendous price, for what - a basic Golf.

4. The Hyundai and Kia electric cars - again horrendous prices for basic cars.

VW have announce the ID electric range due next year - but no prices or real delivery dates.

So you want a plug in electric vehicle, what do you buy? The motor manufacturers do not have product for sale.

Ger Roe

beggars_bush wrote: »

And still noboby has thought of just having a flat rate of taxing cars based on engine size/CO2 and then apply carbon tax to the fuel
As in, the more you drive the more you pay model

They have thought of it, but their motivation is to screw more money from you, not introduce a fairer (for you) but less lucrative (for them) system. Under the present model they can rip you off on two fronts at the same time. They won't give that golden goose option up easily.

Like a lot of our pretend environmental focus policies, they don't want to actually do things properly, they just want to keep charging people at the bottom of the chain instead of forcing those at the top to make the changes that need to be made.

They have declared a climate emergency (because of their own scandalous inaction over many years) and they now have to be seen to be doing something, but in the end they have to keep this place as 'the best little country to do business in.' (Ref Enda Kenny).

How about changing the focus to make it the best little country to live in?

Shefwedfan

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the motor manufacturers are hardly producing relevant vehicles.

There is:

1. Tesla - very high spec and price to match and only available in Ireland recently.

2. Nissan Leaf - been on the market since 2011. A basic car, but not cheap even with the incentives.

3. The VW eGolf. Horrendous price, for what - a basic Golf.

4. The Hyundai and Kia electric cars - again horrendous prices for basic cars.

VW have announce the ID electric range due next year - but no prices or real delivery dates.

So you want a plug in electric vehicle, what do you buy? The motor manufacturers do not have product for sale.

You need to compare like for like. The electric cars are high spec, so eGolf for instance you need to compare to a top of the line automatic Golf and then it isn't actually that much more expensive.

Compare to a base manual and yes it is expensive

Sam Russell

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You need to compare like for like. The electric cars are high spec, so eGolf for instance you need to compare to a top of the line automatic Golf and then it isn't actually that much more expensive.

Compare to a base manual and yes it is expensive

That might be true, but if I am looking for a car, I do not want to only have the high cost one - it is not a choice.

Shefwedfan

Sam Russell wrote: »

That might be true, but if I am looking for a car, I do not want to only have the high cost one - it is not a choice.

It depends on up front and TCO.....


A current eGolf with 0% PCP and the cost saving on fuel/service/tax/tolls compared to a combustion engine will work out a lot lot cheaper....

Sam Russell

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It depends on up front and TCO.....


A current eGolf with 0% PCP and the cost saving on fuel/service/tax/tolls compared to a combustion engine will work out a lot lot cheaper....

PCP is not for me. I will wait for the ID cars to come on stream - which is 2022 if I am being realistic. 2020 first sold at a premium with poor spec as VW does with every new model. 2022 will see their first attempt to get bums behind the wheel.

Shefwedfan

Sam Russell wrote: »

PCP is not for me. I will wait for the ID cars to come on stream - which is 2022 if I am being realistic. 2020 first sold at a premium with poor spec as VW does with every new model. 2022 will see their first attempt to get bums behind the wheel.

End of 2020 and start of 2021 they will need to have large sales after the huge investment

The initial model is only for pre-release and will be far from poor spec