Budget 2020 new motor tax scale

Sam Russell

Shefwedfan wrote: »

End of 2020 and start of 2021 they will need to have large sales after the huge investment

The initial model is only for pre-release and will be far from poor spec

But not low priced - in fact not priced. By 2022, they will be priced for value. They need to sell a lot - an enormous number not just to recoup their investment but to meet their CO2 targets. By 2025, they will need to be a major supplier of electric vehicles - probably supplying other marques with chassis and components. Already they are going to be supplying the Transit chassis.

Interesting times ahead.

Shefwedfan

Sam Russell wrote: »

But not low priced - in fact not priced. By 2022, they will be priced for value. They need to sell a lot - an enormous number not just to recoup their investment but to meet their CO2 targets. By 2025, they will need to be a major supplier of electric vehicles - probably supplying other marques with chassis and components. Already they are going to be supplying the Transit chassis.

Interesting times ahead.

Hard to know yet, probably mid 30's for the ID 1st


VW group will flood market, Skoda/Audi/VW and Seat all have models comign out. You can preorder the entry eUp now and Skoda version is coming out as well

The Seat version of ID will be out soon after the ID...etc etc.....really I am waiting for the Buzz but I would expect 2023 before I can get that

RedorDead

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-welcomes-germanys-60b-plan-meet-co2-targets

Id say you could copy and paste for Ireland for this time 2 weeks as its bound to be something similar. Hit the normal motorist to support a sleuth of EVs.

Micky 32

RedorDead wrote: »

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-welcomes-germanys-60b-plan-meet-co2-targets

Id say you could copy and paste for Ireland for this time 2 weeks as its bound to be something similar. Hit the normal motorist to support a sleuth of EVs.

Did you see what VW are charging for their 190 km range Golf? 50k!

krissovo

Micky 32 wrote: »

Did you see what VW are charging for their 190 km range Golf? 50k!

More like 350km, unless you are doing 150kmph with the id3. The e-golf has just had the price reduced.

Micky 32

krissovo wrote: »

More like 350km, unless you are doing 150kmph with the id3. The e-golf has just had the price reduced.

Not a chance unless you're coasting down a hill all day with everything switched off.

Gumbo

Micky 32 wrote: »

Not a chance unless you're coasting down a hill all day with everything switched off.

You do realize most systems run off the 12V battery, lights, radio, heated seats etc
The only thing that runs from the HV Battery and therefore reducing range is the heater and AC.

Micky 32

kceire wrote: »

You do realize most systems run off the 12V battery, lights, radio, heated seats etc
The only thing that runs from the HV Battery and therefore reducing range is the heater and AC.

It doesn't change the fact of the short range, go check out the reviews.

_Brian

carsfan2 wrote: »

I can’t see the SIMI being at all happy with these proposals. New car sales are down already. Lots of garages are struggling and this will only make new cars more expensive and buyers uncertain.
I’d say a lot of lobbying will go on.

We need to seriously reduce buying new cars and learn to extend the life of existing cars and put up with having an older number plate.

It’s much more environmentally friendly to use and existing car than scrap it and buy a shiny new one. .

un5byh7sqpd2x0

_Brian wrote: »

We need to seriously reduce buying new cars and learn to extend the life of existing cars and put up with having an older number plate.

It’s much more environmentally friendly to use and existing car than scrap it and buy a shiny new one. .

Are you proposing that old cars be re-engined with Euro 6 complaint engines?

Andrewf20

As depressing as it sounds, we in effect need to become poorer so that we have less money to consume things and higher taxation is one way of making that happen.

Why stitch up old jeans when you can afford new ones etc...

Eric Cartman

well government, i guess you win this one, time for me to hang up my filthy diesel 4x4 and go to a more environmentally friendly fuel https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201908070871730?fuel-type=Petrol&colour=Black&radius=1500&year-from=2011&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=price-asc&postcode=se10ab&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&minimum-badge-engine-size=4.0&make=LAND%20ROVER&page=3

Schorpio

Andrewf20 wrote: »

As depressing as it sounds, we in effect need to become poorer so that we have less money to consume things and higher taxation is one way of making that happen.

Why stitch up old jeans when you can afford new ones etc...

I think that's completely the wrong mindset. The key isn't taxation, it's incentivisation.

Don't tax us to make us less able to afford new cars, incentivise us to keep our old ones. Tax new cars more, and our existing ones less.

The key should be to reward people for doing the right thing, not constantly punish them in doing what you want them to do.

However, that wouldn't make the Government any more money. Something something.....getting up early in the morning.

Andrewf20

Schorpio wrote: »

I think that's completely the wrong mindset. The key isn't taxation, it's incentivisation.

Don't tax us to make us less able to afford new cars, incentivise us to keep our old ones. Tax new cars more, and our existing ones less.

The key should be to reward people for doing the right thing, not constantly punish them in doing what you want them to do.

However, that wouldn't make the Government any more money. Something something.....getting up early in the morning.

I'm an advocate of old cars and I have a car on a classic policy and so I agree with your sentiment. It's especially true in light of the sf6 emissions from electricity generation that's getting very little press attention. It raises an eyebrow on how 'green' electric cars really are.

However our habits in relation to car usage see that we are more likely to take the car to the shops a kilometre away instead of walk because we can afford it. We have become a very disposable society because we are used to the convenience of it. I drive to work, but if I really needed to I could cycle. I'm just too darned selfish and lazy to deal with the hassle.

From reading up on climate change, it appears that every avenue needs to be explored to reduce global warming including our own habits. If we don't change them, it appears they will have to be forced upon us through taxation etc. The less money we have, the less likely we are to dispose of old things or to drive more miles etc.

martyc5674

Andrewf20 wrote: »

I'm an advocate of old cars and I have a car on a classic policy and so I agree with your sentiment. It's especially true in light of the sf6 emissions from electricity generation that's getting very little press attention. It raises an eyebrow on how 'green' electric cars really are.

However our habits in relation to car usage see that we are more likely to take the car to the shops a kilometre away instead of walk because we can afford it. We have become a very disposable society because we are used to the convenience of it. I drive to work, but if I really needed to I could cycle. I'm just too darned selfish and lazy to deal with the hassle.

From reading up on climate change, it appears that every avenue needs to be explored to reduce global warming including our own habits. If we don't change them, it appears they will have to be forced upon us through taxation etc. The less money we have, the less likely we are to dispose of old things or to drive more miles etc.

This...
We don’t need to change our cars to electric, we need to get rid of them.
We need better public transport and cycling/walking infrastructure. It’s a modal shift we need. Electric will solve nothing, it will only kick the can down the road, whilst keeping the car industries propped up.
Marty.

Gumbo

Micky 32 wrote: »

It doesn't change the fact of the short range, go check out the reviews.

No need to check out reviews. I’ve been driving EV’s since 2012 alongside my S3, 535d
And various other ICE cars.

Micky 32

kceire wrote: »

No need to check out reviews. I’ve been driving EV’s since 2012 alongside my S3, 535d
And various other ICE cars.

Ah you have one of those E golfs? I'm assuming you have, so what range are you genuinly getting out of it?

Eric Cartman

martyc5674 wrote: »

This...
We don’t need to change our cars to electric, we need to get rid of them.
We need better public transport and cycling/walking infrastructure. It’s a modal shift we need. Electric will solve nothing, it will only kick the can down the road, whilst keeping the car industries propped up.
Marty.

I agree that other people should do that to free up the roads for me , thus having my ICE cars on the road less, thus reducing emissions. Fantastic plan.

mgn

martyc5674 wrote: »

This...
We don’t need to change our cars to electric, we need to get rid of them.
We need better public transport and cycling/walking infrastructure. It’s a modal shift we need. Electric will solve nothing, it will only kick the can down the road, whilst keeping the car industries propped up.
Marty.

Bet you live in a city too.

Micky 32

martyc5674 wrote: »

This...
We don’t need to change our cars to electric, we need to get rid of them.
We need better public transport and cycling/walking infrastructure. It’s a modal shift we need. Electric will solve nothing, it will only kick the can down the road, whilst keeping the car industries propped up.
Marty.

So you're on for reducing peoples freedom and independence?

Micky 32

mgn wrote: »

Bet you live in a city too.

Of course he/she does and I bet quite wealthy too.

Idbatterim

car sharing autonomous battery powered cars, would be a total gamechanger! Now in bigger apartment schemes in dublin, gocar are being approached to base their cars in them and they plan on massively expanding their fleet in dublin over the next few years.

They have my plans royally fcuked, IF and its a big IF, they plan on revising the VRT rates!

This total irrelevant bull**** lower down the brackets of the tiny increases for every 10g/km etc or whatever is laughable. But if you want to drive larger engined petrol towards the top end, the vrt and motor tax are serious considerations!

spare me this "down the country" bs! there has been the option of driving stupidly cheap cars for over a decade, diesel, wrongly, is taxed less than petrol. If you want to spend virtually nothing on tax, maintenance and fuel, electric cars that would suit a lot of drivers, have been around for years and a leaf can be purchased for 6,000!

You think the exception should be made for the minority of drivers who cant afford a new electric with large range, who do massive amounts of driving ,so all of the people currently driving their diesel with stupidly cheap motor tax for a few km a day, can continue to wreck the environment? LOL!

they wouldnt give a toss about spending E6 on a pint, so I'm sure they can spare a pittance a week extra on fuel, for far better air quality. We will be kicked dragging and screaming into the future as usual, by the germans etc!

another poster on this forum enlightened me, that the dutch motor tax system charges far more for diesel. To ensure they are only used by those that mileage warrants a diesel!

Over here, with no motor industry, all those fools did with their pittance motor tax for the vast majority of new cars, has cost them billions in income! Then they dont have the money to improve public transport etc and actually reduce emission that way! Its total comedy! Its Ireland!

mgn

Idbatterim wrote: »

car sharing autonomous battery powered cars, would be a total gamechanger! Now in bigger apartment schemes in dublin, gocar are being approached to base their cars in them and they plan on massively expanding their fleet in dublin over the next few years.

They have my plans royally fcuked, IF and its a big IF, they plan on revising the VRT rates!

This total irrelevant bull**** lower down the brackets of the tiny increases for every 10g/km etc or whatever is laughable. But if you want to drive larger engined petrol towards the top end, the vrt and motor tax are serious considerations!

spare me this "down the country" bs! there has been the option of driving stupidly cheap cars for over a decade, diesel, wrongly, is taxed less than petrol. If you want to spend virtually nothing on tax, maintenance and fuel, electric cars that would suit a lot of drivers, have been around for years and a leaf can be purchased for 6,000!

You think the exception should be made for the minority of drivers who cant afford a new electric with large range, who do massive amounts of driving ,so all of the people currently driving their diesel with stupidly cheap motor tax for a few km a day, can continue to wreck the environment? LOL!

they wouldnt give a toss about spending E6 on a pint, so I'm sure they can spare a pittance a week extra on fuel, for far better air quality. We will be kicked dragging and screaming into the future as usual, by the germans etc!

another poster on this forum enlightened me, that the dutch motor tax system charges far more for diesel. To ensure they are only used by those that mileage warrants a diesel!

Over here, with no motor industry, all those fools did with their pittance motor tax for the vast majority of new cars, has cost them billions in income! Then they dont have the money to improve public transport etc and actually reduce emission that way! Its total comedy! Its Ireland!

Who the f*ck do you think you are telling people what the should and shouldn't drive, just because you can afford an electric car doesn't mean everyone else can.

Idbatterim

they were given stupid cheap tax, then taxes less than on petrol, which is also laughable. This was obviously idiotic, its not even up for debate. Many can lose thousands on depreciation and loan interest, but cant afford a few cent more on diesel a week?

there are 1100 premature deaths in ireland due to air pollution, the set up here has been farcical from the government, a total disgrace. Its not the peoples fault for this idiocy, but on the otherhand, I dont accept the environmental or human impact it has, is in any way acceptable. They should ban diesel sales after 2025 tops!

with low mileage, how many of these diesel cars, are working out cheaper than petrol, if you factor in diesel related issues, that wouldnt or probably wouldnt arise with petrol?

I dont drive electric, I drive a petrol. But I realise what a total disgrace the irish government have here to the environment, the mistakes they have made, the billions it has cost and how utterly spineless and inept they are!

in relation to the above post, given that you can now drive a used leaf, which would suit a lot of drivers for sub 6,000 a year, I think its fair to say that the vast majority can "afford" to drive electric!

73bc61lyohr0mu

All this talk of electric cars and higher tax and I'm on my way to collect a 2.3 petrol Saab 95 Aero...

mgn

Ainsley Rotten Mobster wrote: »

All this talk of electric cars and higher tax and I'm on my way to collect a 2.3 petrol Saab 95 Aero...

Nice car, enjoy it.

mgn

Idbatterim wrote: »

they were given stupid cheap tax, then taxes less than on petrol, which is also laughable. This was obviously idiotic, its not even up for debate. Many can lose thousands on depreciation and loan interest, but cant afford a few cent more on diesel a week?

there are 1100 premature deaths in ireland due to air pollution, the set up here has been farcical from the government, a total disgrace. Its not the peoples fault for this idiocy, but on the otherhand, I dont accept the environmental or human impact it has, is in any way acceptable. They should ban diesel sales after 2025 tops!

with low mileage, how many of these diesel cars, are working out cheaper than petrol, if you factor in diesel related issues, that wouldnt or probably wouldnt arise with petrol?

I dont drive electric, I drive a petrol. But I realise what a total disgrace the irish government have here to the environment, the mistakes they have made, the billions it has cost and how utterly spineless and inept they are!

in relation to the above post, given that you can now drive a used leaf, which would suit a lot of drivers for sub 6,000 a year, I think its fair to say that the vast majority can "afford" to drive electric!

Why are you not driving an electric car seen that you think everyone else should, I live in the country and drive a diesel as do most of the people around my area do and air quality is fine. Your answer seems to be tax diesel cars out of existence just because you don't drive one.

Idbatterim

mgn wrote: »

Why are you not driving an electric car seen that you think everyone else should, I live in the country and drive a diesel as do most of the people around my area do and air quality is fine. Your answer seems to be tax diesel cars out of existence just because you don't drive one.

Im not saying everyone should. If fuel costs are such a big concern though, many people are choosing not to drive an electric car that would cost far less than a diesel and still be suitable for their needs. Diesel and its motor tax and vrt have been far cheaper than they should have been... Thats the issues the government have idiotically created for themselves...

fossil fuel cars in general should be phased out as quick as possible...

and if I hear about dublin and its "fantastic transport" the city transport is an off the wall disgrace how poor it is! Its as if its a similar scale city on the continent with proper rail intergrated transport, multiple metro lines etc! Let me tell you, it isnt.

bazz26

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im not saying everyone should. If fuel costs are such a big concern though, many people are choosing not to drive an electric car that would cost far less than a diesel and still be suitable for their needs. Diesel and its motor tax and vrt have been far cheaper than they should have been... Thats the issues the government have idiotically created for themselves...

fossil fuel cars in general should be phased out as quick as possible...

Do you honestly think if the majority switched to electric cars that the Government would just let them be as cheap to run as they are now? They are already talking about removing the grants because it's not sustainable. Revenue stream from the Irish motorist has to be maintained no matter what powers your car. How would areas of the public service be funded if revenue from motor tax, vrt and fuel duty be substituted once EVs become the main mode of transport? Who would pay for the public transport needed? Maybe the PAYE or self employed tax payer should subsidize the shortfall even if you don't own a car? Not so easy when it's thought about.

Also lets not kid ourselves, replacing 1 million fossil fuel cars with 1 million electric cars isn't fixing anything. Energy and resources are still spent making electric cars too and could be better spent on other areas. The aim should be to remove peoples dependency on them, remove as many cars from the road as possible but that's never going to happen because big business rules and public services exist that have to be paid for. Same goes with other consumables like a TV or mobile phone, if you were told tomorrow to give them up in order to save the planet, would you be so quick to do it?

Idbatterim

Do you honestly think if the majority switched to electric cars that the Government would just let them be as cheap to run as they are now?

no absolutely not, because as you say, its unsustainable. They have already cost themselves a fortune though. The early adopters of EV can probably benefit from the current more generous system, than will be the case over the next few years. I dont think they will be able to gouge anything like the amounts they have before though, like on the old system for mid to big sized engines on motor tax. How do they want to start gouging people for electric, when they have the fear of god struck into them about charging a few extra cent for diesel! I can imagine the dramatic depiction of the elderly all sitting around their open fires again, only able to heat that room :rolleyes:

also with electric, you throw up your own wind turbine or pv cells (which have come down massively in price). you could get a battery, you can be totally off grid if you want to , you can fuel your EV for free after the initial investment.

In terms of maintenance etc, there is way less to go wrong. I think their total motor related revenue will start decreasing... unless they start congestion charging etc, increasing duty on fuel etc...

they made a total ballsup of the co2 based system and they are stuck with the effects of that now. You think they will be able to increase motor tax rates for typical cars up to E500 ish a pop, not a chance as they are spineless. They will recoup it through higher fuel costs...

martyc5674

Micky 32 wrote: »

So you're on for reducing peoples freedom and independence?

No ... less single occupancy vehicles on the road would leave more space for those who want to be independent.
Driving a car shouldn’t be considered “freedom”... it’s a privilege, walking/cycling freely is freedom. Freedom to move, freedom from ownership costs.

martyc5674

Micky 32 wrote: »

Of course he/she does and I bet quite wealthy too.

I’m far from wealthy.
Yes I live in a city, didn’t grow up in one but see the sense in living in one. Most of the people I grew up with out the sticks built mansions out there and are struggling to keep them heated, running 2 cars in and out to work. Planning in this country facilitated this and has made a lot of people totally car dependent.
Marty.

punisher5112

Yay more ways to hit the ones that can't afford to change....

Fooking robbing backstards.

BonnieSituation

My Carina hits €56.00 next April. If they hit that there'll be cornage!

Idbatterim

Marty you are right that the planning is appalling here. But it’s a tiny country and if you are doing lighting to moderate mileage , you can buy electric used for a few thousand. If doing high enough mileage , you might be able to afford a new electric and at least fuel and motor tax and maintenance will cost virtually nothing. Any jokes increases in the cost of fossil fuel will be miniscule every year over a period of years. A few months ago I could get petrol for Dublin for 118c it’s now 148 c without any government interference and somehow life has still gone on ...

martyc5674

martyc5674 wrote: »

I’m far from wealthy.
Yes I live in a city, didn’t grow up in one but see the sense in living in one. Most of the people I grew up with out the sticks built mansions out there and are struggling to keep them heated, running 2 cars in and out to work. Planning in this country facilitated this and has made a lot of people totally car dependent.
Marty.

And the vast majority if not all are happy to be car dependent and living in proper sized houses not the kennels that are considered houses in the city. I know I am very glad to be building my own house, as I want and the size I want and the fact it means I will rely on cars is of no concern.

Idbatterim

If you have the means , posters are aware that they can live off the grid power wise and even fuel their car off the electricity they generate too ?

martyc5674

Saul Thundering Revenue wrote: »

And the vast majority if not all are happy to be car dependent and living in proper sized houses not the kennels that are considered houses in the city. I know I am very glad to be building my own house, as I want and the size I want and the fact it means I will rely on cars is of no concern.

This is exactly what’s wrong with so many people in the country... planning has facilitated this, and now a large proportion of people feel entitled to live where they want them whinge when they can’t get broadband/gas, or their house floods, or their 2 mile boreen is not being maintained by the council. And of course this props up car dependency, and now people are whining about what tax they may be paying to keep their car on the road. Planning and poor government policy has facilitated this, and to use your word it’s the “majority” that vote a lot of these gombeens in. It’s the “I’m alright jack” mentality, I’ll pollute the air you breathe because I can afford it etc etc etc.

krissovo

The fun police are in:eek:

Holly crap, some people will not be happy until we are all living in drab communist housing projects and packed in like sardines on public transport.

FYI we are entitled to live where we want, as long as we have means we can within reason oh and in case you forgot we are a rural country. Only Dublin could in reality sustain a decent public transport system our other cities need different solutions.

martyc5674

krissovo wrote: »

The fun police are in:eek:

Holly crap, some people will not be happy until we are all living in drab communist housing projects and packed in like sardines on public transport.

FYI we are entitled to live where we want, as long as we have means we can within reason oh and in case you forgot we are a rural country. Only Dublin could in reality sustain a decent public transport system our other cities need different solutions.

Yes planning has facilitated the “I can live wherever I want” attitude, but slowly government are realising the mess that’s creating. And they will slowly tax people back into the cities if that’s what it takes. It’s a crap way of doing things. (Property tax/motor tax/removing essential services from rural locations.. all making it less attractive)
Also cities if planned properly can be really vibrant engaging places to live. Very little of that here though again due to poor planning/greed.
Hard to say ireland is truly rural anymore... it’s not like people in these big houses out the country are actually working near where they live. The vast majority of them are driving into cities to work, then leaving in the evening, neither of which are of value to their own community or the city they work in.
All for what?..

mgn

martyc5674 wrote: »

This is exactly what’s wrong with so many people in the country... planning has facilitated this, and now a large proportion of people feel entitled to live where they want them whinge when they can’t get broadband/gas, or their house floods, or their 2 mile boreen is not being maintained by the council. And of course this props up car dependency, and now people are whining about what tax they may be paying to keep their car on the road. Planning and poor government policy has facilitated this, and to use your word it’s the “majority” that vote a lot of these gombeens in. It’s the “I’m alright jack” mentality, I’ll pollute the air you breathe because I can afford it etc etc etc.

For a start the quality of the air in the country is just fine, The Dubs complaining on here about improving transport and getting cars of the road is laughable, when the plan a new bus routes into the city, what happens all out protesting about a few trees being cut. And for gombeen politicians, the biggest ones in the Dail at the moment are from Dublin, so that not saying much for the likes of you so.

Idbatterim

mgn wrote: »

For a start the quality of the air in the country is just fine, The Dubs complaining on here about improving transport and getting cars of the road is laughable, when the plan a new bus routes into the city, what happens all out protesting about a few trees being cut. And for gombeen politicians, the biggest ones in the Dail at the moment are from Dublin, so that not saying much for the likes of you so.

The planners in this country , Dublin and outside are a bloody disgrace. End of ! If Dublin transport was so efficient , why is it one if the most congested cities In Europe ? That’s why the traffic starts building twenty km out from the m50!

mgn

martyc5674 wrote: »

Yes planning has facilitated the “I can live wherever I want” attitude, but slowly government are realising the mess that’s creating. And they will slowly tax people back into the cities if that’s what it takes. It’s a crap way of doing things. (Property tax/motor tax/removing essential services from rural locations.. all making it less attractive)
Also cities if planned properly can be really vibrant engaging places to live. Very little of that here though again due to poor planning/greed.
Hard to say ireland is truly rural anymore... it’s not like people in these big houses out the country are actually working near where they live. The vast majority of them are driving into cities to work, then leaving in the evening, neither of which are of value to their own community or the city they work in.
All for what?..

Where would all these people live if the wanted to move to a city, the cant house the people that want to live there now,
And one thing i will guarantee you there will be a lot of people moving out of the likes of Dublin to the country in the next 10 years with the way some areas are turning out.

mgn

Idbatterim wrote: »

The planners in this country , Dublin and outside are a bloody disgrace. End of ! If Dublin transport was so efficient , why is it one if the most congested cities In Europe ? That’s why the traffic starts building twenty km out from the m50!

There is no proper transport in Dublin, this is why motorists should not be penalized, it's not there fault at the end of the day.

punisher5112

What if I said I drove my car. Few weeks back off the road but no tax... should I be linched?

martyc5674

mgn wrote: »

For a start the quality of the air in the country is just fine, The Dubs complaining on here about improving transport and getting cars of the road is laughable, when the plan a new bus routes into the city, what happens all out protesting about a few trees being cut. And for gombeen politicians, the biggest ones in the Dail at the moment are from Dublin, so that not saying much for the likes of you so.

Air quality is fine yeah?
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0925/1077992-air-pollution-epa/

mgn

martyc5674 wrote: »

Air quality is fine yeah?
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0925/1077992-air-pollution-epa/

Yes air quality is fine in the country, it's the city's that has the problems,

martyc5674

mgn wrote: »

Where would all these people live if the wanted to move to a city, the cant house the people that want to live there now,
And one thing i will guarantee you there will be a lot of people moving out of the likes of Dublin to the country in the next 10 years with the way some areas are turning out.

No idea where they would live, I never suggested they should abandon their country homes and head for Dublin. Poor planning has allowed the mess we have to be created. Correcting it will not be easy, I don’t know what the answer is now only we need to stop a lot of one off housing and plan our communities a bit better, with sustainable transport from the start. Small villages and towns are struggling too as a result.

martyc5674

mgn wrote: »

Yes air quality is fine in the country, it's the city's that has the problems,

Contributed to in large by those driving long distances from the country to work. Instead of living and working close enough to walk/cycle/avail of public transport.

careless sherpa

martyc5674 wrote: »

Contributed to in large by those driving long distances from the country to work. Instead of living and working close enough to walk/cycle/avail of public transport.

What are you basing that on?