Hotel Workers - Rock bottom pay

hetuzozaho

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not in agreement with Morello's politics, but I think he hit the nail on the head with this one.

Tom "do you know who I am" Morello remember that restaurant and living wage story that time?

topper75

Sonics2k wrote: »

Astonishing, you know so little of the industry.

You know so little of how a wage is derived in a free market economy. That is the real problem here.

I know the laws of economics - esp supply and demand and price mechanism. Most adults in Ireland do. I'm not special in that respect.

I'll ask again. Nobody answered me properly the first time: What is special about the hospitality industry that should allow it to defy the laws of economics?

If you what you are doing is not highly skilled and they can get anyone to do your job and train you up in an afternoon, why would you expect much more than minimum wage?

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

You know so little of how a wage is derived in a free market economy. That is the real problem here.

I know the laws of economics - esp supply and demand and price mechanism. Most adults in Ireland do. I'm not special in that respect.

I'll ask again. Nobody answered me properly the first time: What is special about the hospitality industry that should allow it to defy the laws of economics?

If you what you are doing is not highly skilled and they can get anyone to do your job and train you up in an afternoon, why would you expect much more than minimum wage?

the 'laws' of neoclassical economics have been long proven to be bull**** in reality!

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the 'laws' of neoclassical economics have been long proven to be bull**** in reality!

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

Seanachai

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Tom "do you know who I am" Morello remember that restaurant and living wage story that time?

I like this Meinert guy, "“My problem with movements is if you are not in lockstep, then you are evil.”

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

the 'laws' of neoclassical theory are not actually laws at all, such as the laws of physics etc, which have been proven from theory, hence why they are called laws, the 'laws' of neoclassical theory have never been truly proven, anywhere on this planet, particularly at a macro level, and you may forget about that other law of neoclassical theory, equilibrium, this is also a myth. these 'laws' of economics are so called, largely due to political ideology more so than actual evidence of existence, ideologies such as neoliberalism, whereby actual evidence of proof truly isnt necessary.

one of the main outputs we are currently experiencing from these ideologies is, and frankly, dangerous, is relatively low wage inflation and rapid asset price inflation, largely due to the rapid creation of credit from our financial institutions, which is not particularly good in the long term!

Franz Von Peppercorn II

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

No I didn’t. You said that if wages rise the cost would be added to the consumer. That’s economic illiteracy of the highest order. Unfortunately it’s the kind of thing that is taught in econ 101. Even though it clearly contradicts the laws of supply and demand. (Which are true in most cases, but trivial).

Franz Von Peppercorn II

topper75 wrote: »

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

Economics isn’t a science. It can’t predict the future nor even explain the past. There are multiple explanations for the depression. It’s one of the weakest social sciences, and that’s saying a lot. Basically it’s ideology mascarading as science, but unlike most ideologies it can’t be refuted. There is overwhelming evidence that the basics of the theory is irredeemably flawed.

There might be some useful stuff at post graduate level but at the level as it is taught to undergraduates it’s as useful as astrology.

Junkyard Tom

There is no 'free market'. There are no economic 'laws'. Supply and demand is fine in a simple little 'lego-man' experiment but humans are a lot more complicated.

JupiterKid

Hotels and the wider hospitality industry in general are notorious for working their staff to the bone and paying them as little as they can get away with.

For shame...

I haven't noticed that many Irish staff employed in hotels or restaurants lately myself.

lainey_d_123

Sardonicat wrote: »

What utter insulting hogwash. You do realise that most front of house hotel staff have studied 'Tourism' or related to degree level, don't you? It's often stated as a requirement for reception staff for the 4 and 5 star hotels. My niece did this. She has an Honours Degree in the field and was working in a 5 star as a receptionist at just above minimum wage! She quit the industry (which she loved) because if the sh1t pay . She emigrated and is now in a great job in a totally unrelated field for a company that appreciates her education and work ethic.

You have to be a special kind of stupid to spend several years (and now thousands of euros of your own money) learning how to work in a hotel. Tourism/Hospitality are joke degrees that people do when they can't get into a real degree course. You can't learn those jobs at 'universities', you learn them by doing them. Why would anyone expect more than minimum wage for doing unskilled work? I worked in hotels every summer throughout my degree. It's basic, common sense work. Some of those working alongside me doing 'Hospitality' degrees didn't even have any foreign languages and had less to offer than I did, yet swanned around thinking they were great because they had done a degree which qualified them to do....exactly what I was doing without one.

HappyAsLarE

Minimum wage for minimum ability. If every job paid a higher minimum wage (so called living wage) then the price of everything would just increase.

Osborne

I'm a Hotel Manager in Dublin. We don't pay anyone minimum wage. The least we pay is €11 p/hr. Even this is too low in my opinion, especially for Dublin City Centre.

I try and add value to the employees where I can via various incentives and benefits as I understand how difficult it is.

Some Hotels take the absolute p*ss but some Managers genuinely care about their teams.

Edit: I started off as a pot wash on minimum wage.

Plumbthedepths

HappyAsLarE wrote:

If every job paid a higher minimum wage (so called living wage) then the price of everything would just increase.

Or profits would not be as high.

enricoh

Do many hotels have staff accommodation? the one nearest me did.
It'd be a big bonus in dublin.
Dunno if its all that rosy in the hotel industry, iirc half our tourists are from the uk, brexits gotta be hitting their numbers. Sterling very weak against the euro now also.

FTA69

I used to be the union rep in a prominent Cork City hotel; absolute joke of a gaff.

Everyone working deserves a decent living wage. The idea that people working in hotels, or driving a bus or delivering a bin are somehow uneducated thicks is patronising snobbish nonsense.

I’ve worked in all of the above scenarios and met some of the soundest, most interesting and smartest people in my life. Nobody should be condescended to while working hard.

bucketybuck

Sardonicat wrote: »

You do realise that most front of house hotel staff have studied 'Tourism' or related to degree level, don't you?

And I'm sure most circus clowns went to clown college as well.

My sister has one of those, a degree in hospitality or something. Such a load of rubbish, wasting her time in university on a course to help her succeed in the shittiest industry outside of slurry economics.

"Tourism", the course you do when you like going drinking and think it would be great to work in a pub or as a rep in Ibiza.

lainey_d_123

FTA69 wrote: »

I used to be the union rep in a prominent Cork City hotel; absolute joke of a gaff.

Everyone working deserves a decent living wage. The idea that people working in hotels, or driving a bus or delivering a bin are somehow uneducated thicks is patronising snobbish nonsense.

I’ve worked in all of the above scenarios and met some of the soundest, most interesting and smartest people in my life. Nobody should be condescended to while working hard.

You're missing the point. You can't expect to do a job literally anyone could do and be paid the same as a GP or a software developer. People earning decent salaries have often spent a lot of time (and often money) on their education. Hospitality jobs pay minimum wage because they require minimum qualifications and minimum skills.

FTA69

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You're missing the point. You can't expect to do a job literally anyone could do and be paid the same as a GP or a software developer. People earning decent salaries have often spent a lot of time (and often money) on their education. Hospitality jobs pay minimum wage because they require minimum qualifications and minimum skills.

I’m not missing any point at all. I said a living wage, i.e a wage that doesn’t leave you on the poverty line after working your bollix off for some hotel earning a fortune. I never once said they should be on doctor’s wages.

That’s a silly exaggeration.

Still waters

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

What a load of horse ****e

freshpopcorn

enricoh wrote: »

Do many hotels have staff accommodation? the one nearest me did.
It'd be a big bonus in dublin.

I worked in a place and you used get left over breakfast food for lunch or something that was going off and it was generally burnt to a crisp from sitting in a ban marie from 6:30 that morning. I'm almost certain it was deducted from my wages.

I had friends stay in staff accommodation in a five star hotel before.
A cost for it was deducted out of there wages even if they didn't avail of it from what I remember.
It was cold/damp/etc/few people in one room and you lived with the people you worked with.

lainey_d_123

FTA69 wrote: »

I’m not missing any point at all. I said a living wage, i.e a wage that doesn’t leave you on the poverty line after working your bollix off for some hotel earning a fortune. I never once said they should be on doctor’s wages.

That’s a silly exaggeration.

I used to do a job requiring far more education and skill than a hotel employee and was barely surviving on that wage. Lots of people are underpaid, not just hotel workers.

cena

raise minimum wage to 20 euro an hour

Del.Monte

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

This is absolutely sweeping generalisation says more about your educational attainment than that of the people you are slagging off. How on earth do you pretend to know how people end up in poorly paid jobs?

Always Tired

Sky King wrote: »

Great idea, lets pay some flunkie who failed their inter cert and answers phones all day the same amount as someone who worked and got a qualification.

Yeah buddy guess what you could be a genius but if you're in Donegal, Sligo, Mayo there is no job for a genius but plenty hotel jobs. And your description of the job shows you have NO CLUE how much mental and physical stamina hotel work takes. All the biggest morons I've worked with were not in hotels they were in big companies usually managers too. People don't work in hotels because they failed and you're an utter gob****e if youre going around thinking that. Im guessing people like you hold that opinion to justify not tipping.

freshpopcorn

A friend of mine worked in another famous five star property.
All there tips were pooled to bring them on a lively day out when then hotel was closed on a wet January day.
Seasonal workers or from colleges abroad who they were delighted to have during the Summer benefitted nothing from it.

Lackadaisical

Well, it's hardly surprising when we've a government that priorities 'flexibility' over everything and a bunch of trade unions who are largely only interested in chasing the low hanging fruit and representing people who already have hugely protected working conditions i.e. mostly civil servants / public sector stuff.

I know there are some exceptions like the nurses unions and so on, but for the most part I don't see what the Irish trade unions do to protect those in some of the most unstable and vulnerable employment in the state.

It's all very well evoking the tales of the Dublin Lockouts or whatever, but when you've still got exploitive labour practices going on in an economy that's currently very flush with money, it's really not saying a lot for our trade union movements.

Lily_Aldrin7

I work in a hotel for very little money, my job is actually revenue related so I know how much money the hotel makes and it’s a lot. Many of the staff who signed contracts 10-11 years ago make a lot of money compared to everyone else which is even more unfair - some making 24 euro an hour when the majority of workers make under the minimum.
The housekeepers for example get minimum wages but get 4.50 a day deducted for staff lunch which is served at 1 pm and if you can’t go at 1 you don’t get anything. Also, when you do go at 1 you get leftovers or frozen chips and nuggets. I bring my own lunch but still get it deducted from my salary- they won’t stop deducting it regardless. It’s so ****ty it hurts ...

freshpopcorn

Lily_Aldrin7 wrote: »

I work in a hotel for very little money, my job is actually revenue related so I know how much money the hotel makes and it’s a lot. Many of the staff who signed contracts 10-11 years ago make a lot of money compared to everyone else which is even more unfair - some making 24 euro an hour when the majority of workers make under the minimum.
The housekeepers for example get minimum wages but get 4.50 a day deducted for staff lunch which is served at 1 pm and if you can’t go at 1 you don’t get anything. Also, when you do go at 1 you get leftovers or frozen chips and nuggets. I bring my own lunch but still get it deducted from my salary- they won’t stop deducting it regardless. It’s so ****ty it hurts ...

Yes. The food I got was poor. Mainly dried out white pudding or sausages.

Hobosan

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I used to do a job requiring far more education and skill than a hotel employee and was barely surviving on that wage. Lots of people are underpaid, not just hotel workers.

If you could barely survive in a job that required far more skill than hotel workers, then hotel workers must be the living dead, since their jobs require 'minimal skill', in your own words.

punisher5112

Oh I hate this.., use to hear oh the poles would work you under the table...
Yeah maybe when the boss is looking or on site other then that they done sweet f all.

goose2005

Redsky121 wrote: »

If you're boss offered you a salary of €x or €x+1 which woul you choose?

The whole point of a business is to make as much profit as they can, why would they pay staff more than they need to?

when an individual acts in this way they're seen as a sociopath, when a company does it's seen as some sort of 'law of nature'

goose2005

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

So if everyone worked hard in school everyone would have good jobs? How would that work, 5 million network admins? You're always going to have unskilled labour and need someone to do it, that doesn't mean that unskilled workers 'deserve' to be crushed

lainey_d_123

Hobosan wrote: »

If you could barely survive in a job that required far more skill than hotel workers, then hotel workers must be the living dead, since their jobs require 'minimal skill', in your own words.

What are you banging on about?

Lots of jobs are poorly paid for what they are. Hotel workers aren't unique in that regard. If you want decent money, then don't work in a bloody hotel. I worked in them for years while I studied and gained qualifications to do something better, and worked my way up from there. You can't do a job literally anyone with a pulse could do and expect anything more than a basic salary.

goose2005

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Minimum wage for minimum ability. If every job paid a higher minimum wage (so called living wage) then the price of everything would just increase.

meanwhile, in the real world, there is little correlation between minimum wage and inflation.

jay1988

Sky King wrote: »

Great idea, lets pay some flunkie who failed their inter cert and answers phones all day the same amount as someone who worked and got a qualification.

That's a proper dickhead response right there.

DaveyDave

You'd be surprised at how many people just don't care. Myself and the GF are in our late 20s and know a handful of people earning anywhere between 20-28k that have no interest in moving up. Only care about going on the piss or getting cheap package holidays and happy to live at home.

If someone is earning crap money for years it's on them. If they can't land themselves in a better paying job easily then they need to upskill.

Lots of jobs are poorly paid or the company itself is crap so you won't go anywhere but at a certain point it's up to the person to move somewhere better. You can do the same job in a better company for more money, you don't even always have to upskill.

If you don't like a job - find a better one, or train for a better one. "Hospitality" jobs are well known for poor pay and crap conditions. Why anyone whose daddy doesn't own a hotel or works for Bord Failte would waste their time on a masters in it is beyond me.

AulWan

Some people work to live, they don't live to work.

I've been pushed to go for promotions in work and I didn't go - not because I am not interested or underqualified, but because I already earn enough to meet my needs comfortably, imo the payrise offered is not worth the added stress or responsibility , plus I have enough going on at home (caring for elderly parent etc) that I need no extra stress.

Life isn't always about clawing your way to the top so you can make as much money as possible. You can't take it with you.

Wanderer2010

DaveyDave wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how many people just don't care. Myself and the GF are in our late 20s and know a handful of people earning anywhere between 20-28k that have no interest in moving up. Only care about going on the piss or getting cheap package holidays and happy to live at home.

If someone is earning crap money for years it's on them. If they can't land themselves in a better paying job easily then they need to upskill.

Lots of jobs are poorly paid or the company itself is crap so you won't go anywhere but at a certain point it's up to the person to move somewhere better. You can do the same job in a better company for more money, you don't even always have to upskill.

True. I know a few people who don't even consider changing their lot, they are in their mid 30s or older, same job since 17 or 18, they don't feel the need to go for promotions, or even find another job. They are content to get by on between 20-25k, they make just enough to pay rent and spend all weekend knocking back pints until the cycle starts all over again. For every person who sees such a job as a tough lesson in life not to settle for less than your talent demands, you get a 100 more people who don't care. Each to their own..

LirW

Ah yeah, good old upskilling like everyone can do that and move into the city and make their millions.
Plenty of areas have pretty much only hotels as employers. Not everyone can move, not everyone can upskill. Not making excuses but it's not as simple for many to hop into a night course and turn their lives around. Maybe it is on paper but let's be realistic here.

There are plenty of hotels with a horrendous amount of staff turnover.
People just want to be treated like human beings and not exploited at every given opportunity. Like someone further up said they get a fiver a day deducted for staff lunch that's effectively kitchen scraps and wedding leftovers someone already paid for.
Some people aren't paid a cent extra for split shifts or working unsocial hours.

I don't get why people kick down on others working in hospitality. On the one hand everyone wants a nice family dinner, a nice stay with perfect security and clean rooms, everyone pays through the nose for a wedding in these hotels that treat their employees like second class citizen and instead of showing some sort of understanding of how precarious these jobs can be, many have nothing better to say than "ah shur their own fault".
People in hospitality know you're not getting rich from it but they want to be treated with dignity and receive fair pay for their often unsocial hours, weekend and holiday work and tough shifts.

Or would the people here love to have a fiver slashed off their pay to be fed day old buffet leftovers that would otherwise go to the bin?

lainey_d_123

LirW wrote: »

Ah yeah, good old upskilling like everyone can do that and move into the city and make their millions.
Plenty of areas have pretty much only hotels as employers. Not everyone can move, not everyone can upskill. Not making excuses but it's not as simple for many to hop into a night course and turn their lives around. Maybe it is on paper but let's be realistic here.

There are plenty of hotels with a horrendous amount of staff turnover.
People just want to be treated like human beings and not exploited at every given opportunity. Like someone further up said they get a fiver a day deducted for staff lunch that's effectively kitchen scraps and wedding leftovers someone already paid for.
Some people aren't paid a cent extra for split shifts or working unsocial hours.

I don't get why people kick down on others working in hospitality. On the one hand everyone wants a nice family dinner, a nice stay with perfect security and clean rooms, everyone pays through the nose for a wedding in these hotels that treat their employees like second class citizen and instead of showing some sort of understanding of how precarious these jobs can be, many have nothing better to say than "ah shur their own fault".
People in hospitality know you're not getting rich from it but they want to be treated with dignity and receive fair pay for their often unsocial hours, weekend and holiday work and tough shifts.

Or would the people here love to have a fiver slashed off their pay to be fed day old buffet leftovers that would otherwise go to the bin?

I know what it's like because I did it for long enough. Thing is, I spent a decade getting myself more qualified and experienced so I didn't have to do it anymore. Most of the people I worked with are still there, working for minimum wage and whining about it. Telling me I'm 'lucky' to have a better job, as if I didn't spend years working extremely hard to get through degrees and exams alongside hotel work. Some people would rather just spend all weekend b1tching and drinking than actually doing something about it.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

What are you banging on about?

Lots of jobs are poorly paid for what they are. Hotel workers aren't unique in that regard. If you want decent money, then don't work in a bloody hotel. I worked in them for years while I studied and gained qualifications to do something better, and worked my way up from there. You can't do a job literally anyone with a pulse could do and expect anything more than a basic salary.

You’re alright jack.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I know what it's like because I did it for long enough. Thing is, I spent a decade getting myself more qualified and experienced so I didn't have to do it anymore. Most of the people I worked with are still there, working for minimum wage and whining about it. Telling me I'm 'lucky' to have a better job, as if I didn't spend years working extremely hard to get through degrees and exams alongside hotel work. Some people would rather just spend all weekend b1tching and drinking than actually doing something about it.

Look nobody cares. I bet most people on this thread are earning more than you.

The question isn’t about you. It’s about whether the hotels can afford to pay more.

AulWan

Redsky121 wrote: »

Who said that life is about clawing your way to the top or making as much money as possible?

Some of the posts I've read here give the impression that if lower paid workers not constantly striving to reach the next rung on the ladder, they're either lazy, or some kind of waster.

Not true. For some its about work / life balance. At least, that was always my priority.

You'll never hear someone on their deathbed say they wished they had worked harder.

myshirt

The mattresses are getting bigger aswell, the women getting smaller, and the amount of beds they have to change is going through the roof due to management pressure.

Any hotel I go to it's mostly small ladies working in laundry and room cleaning. It's a tough business. They are as tough as nails. That's why when I am a hotel I don't be taking the piss like some punters who are a thorn in the arse trying to get value for their 100 or 150 quid a night.

LirW

Redsky121 wrote: »

If you don't like the job then quit.

And if it's either Hotel work or the dole because they live in bloody West Cavan with f all around?

LirW

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I know what it's like because I did it for long enough. Thing is, I spent a decade getting myself more qualified and experienced so I didn't have to do it anymore. Most of the people I worked with are still there, working for minimum wage and whining about it. Telling me I'm 'lucky' to have a better job, as if I didn't spend years working extremely hard to get through degrees and exams alongside hotel work. Some people would rather just spend all weekend b1tching and drinking than actually doing something about it.

That's good on you, I'm not joking but not everyone is in the same situation. Some are so stretched with their bills that upskilling is a struggle, others simply aren't smart enough because they never say their leaving cert or are academically useless. For others it's the only line of work available because they don't live where the highly paid jobs are and can't afford it.

Where I live 80% of all jobs in a 40km radius is hotel work. Commuting to Dublin is 2+ hours in peak traffic. Unemployment is quite high, educational standard is low.

Sometimes having any job is better than having none. Doesn't take the right away from people to give out about their working conditions if they are genuinely bad.

LirW

Redsky121 wrote: »

Move somewhere else with better jobs.

Last time I looked rental prices are through the roof and are pushing people even on higher income further out of the cities and social housing is quite literally unavailable for people right now especially if you're not from the area.

bucketybuck

AulWan wrote: »

Some of the posts I've read here give the impression that if lower paid workers not constantly striving to reach the next rung on the ladder, they're either lazy, or some kind of waster.

Not true. For some its about work / life balance. At least, that was always my priority.

You'll never hear someone on their deathbed say they wished they had worked harder.

This is a thread bemoaning the crap pay and rubbish conditions for hospitality workers, quite literally the last place where the old cliche about enjoying your work has any relevance.