The eBike thread

unkel

Timing? It's not an ICE

Do you agree that both types of motors are connected to the controller only via the 3 wires (3 phase AC)? There is nothing else the controller is doing here, just feeding the motor with up to 30A at 40V

You might be mixing something else up with this?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Timing? It's not an ICE

Do you agree that both types of motors are connected to the controller only via the 3 wires (3 phase AC)? There is nothing else the controller is doing here, just feeding the motor with up to 30A at 40V

You might be mixing something else up with this?

Here's some information on hall sensors that I can find quickly.

https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-what-are-hall-effect-sensors-and-what-is-their-role-in-dc-motors/#targetText=In%20order%20to%20energize%20the,known%20as%20six%2Dstep%20commutation.

unkel

That's a thread about DC motors.

Aren't we discussing 3 phase AC motors here?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That's a thread about DC motors.

Aren't we discussing 3 phase AC motors here?

Never noticed in a rush, Doesn't matter, has the same effect.

Read this.

https://www.ijedr.org/papers/IJEDR1704162.pdf

unkel

That thread is also about DC motors?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That thread is also about DC motors?

Doesn't matter, same thing, provides the same function ( I think ) lol

unkel

Ah ok, you mean that the controller might be looking to be connected to the hall sensor in the motor (if it has one) and if it's not there, it won't work?

I'll look at the connections on the current controller again when I get a chance. But I don't think there is a hall sensor connection going from the controller to the motor. And in none of the eBay ads I have read about cheap controllers do they mention having a connection for a hall sensor (or not). Maybe you are used to this stuff at the higher end eBikes?

Low Energy Eng

unkel wrote: »

When I googled the first half of that number (SY73627) I got a video result on the top:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ze8wvM9GU4

Could be coincidence but that motor is about the same size as mine, so mine could very well also be a geared hub motor, possibly exactly that model. At least I now know how they work and I can see how they are a lot more vulnerable, particularly with plastic gears :eek:

I just realised a geared hub literally means 1 gear. I thought there was some internals going on that would flick between it's own various gears. I feel let down lol.
Good video nonetheless.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

yeah definitely looks like a geared hub you have judging by the size and yes, they're a lot more vulnerable.

Micah sends 52V to his 36V geared hub motors no probs and his motors are still alive several years later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXQr2MPJS8

He does limit the current a bit though, through the cycle analyst that you mentioned. Nice bit of kit, but I couldn't justify the cost. I'll just stick with my EUR5 voltmeter that I can sticky tape to the frame, connected in series between my battery and my controller. And hopefully my common sense when applying the throttle

I think I'll just order the controller and throttle, cheap as chips and interesting to have a play with them, bypassing the current setup

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Micah sends 52V to his 36V geared hub motors no probs and his motors are still alive several years later

He does limit the current a bit though, through the cycle analyst that you mentioned. Nice bit of kit, but I couldn't justify the cost. I'll just stick with my EUR5 voltmeter that I can sticky tape to the frame, connected in series between my battery and my controller. And hopefully my common sense when applying the throttle

I think I'll just order the controller and throttle, cheap as chips and interesting to have a play with them, bypassing the current setup

It's the amps that kill, yanking the throttle etc. Nice gentle acceleration.

unkel

Aye. I have ordered the €19 controller I linked to and a €3 throttle. €22 shipped for the lot. Gonna bypass current system, see what it's like.

Did a bit of eBay searching for a front wheel (only) geared motor but there don't seem to be any decent deals about at the moment. Like the idea of AWD though

Will probably stay with the geared hub motors though. My bike is totally fine to ride when the battery is goosed. Unlike the conversion kit bike I started with. It was just a big dead weight very hard to start from zero too.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Aye. I have ordered the €19 controller I linked to and a €3 throttle. €22 shipped for the lot. Gonna bypass current system, see what it's like.

Did a bit of eBay searching for a front wheel (only) geared motor but there don't seem to be any decent deals about at the moment. Like the idea of AWD though

Will probably stay with the geared hub motors though. My bike is totally fine to ride when the battery is goosed. Unlike the conversion kit bike I started with. It was just a big dead weight very hard to start from zero too.

Yep, too much motor drag with direct drive but great for raw power.

Utter Consternation

Do you need to shift up the PAS on an electric bike like you would with manual gears on a car or can you set it to the top level of assist and then take off?

Utter Consternation

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Do you need to shift up the PAS on an electric bike like you would with manual gears on a car or can you set it to the top level of assist and then take off?

Yes you can set it to the top level of assistance and take off.

unkel

Here's some eBike pr0n for ya Mad_Lad - but I presume you follow this dude already?

Some controller. The price of it and all his other stuff is just eye watering though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7n9sN_XVA

unkel

So I ordered this controller last week:

Linky


It says it's a 36V/48V controller. Does that mean it has a switch somewhere to choose between these voltages? Or does it decide itself what it is based on the battery you connect (I suspect the latter)

I think I'm changing my mind and will build a 48V battery. Then use the controller to send 48V to the motor - these motors can really handle any reasonable voltage, right? And use the throttle sensibly so as to not wear out the nylon gears in the rear gear hub

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Here's some eBike pr0n for ya Mad_Lad - but I presume you follow this dude already?

Some controller. The price of it and all his other stuff is just eye watering though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_7n9sN_XVA

Cool, yes , expensive hobby, since I had 2 Kids my cycling time is severely limited to non existent so I got into Amateur Radio, another expensive hobby, if you think ebikes are expensive , though it doesn't have to be expensive, it doesn't take a lot or expensive equipment to get on the air but the more you want the better you want the more your bank account drains lol.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

So I ordered this controller last week:

Linky


It says it's a 36V/48V controller. Does that mean it has a switch somewhere to choose between these voltages? Or does it decide itself what it is based on the battery you connect (I suspect the latter)

I think I'm changing my mind and will build a 48V battery. Then use the controller to send 48V to the motor - these motors can really handle any reasonable voltage, right? And use the throttle sensibly so as to not wear out the nylon gears in the rear gear hub

No Switch, usually the cut off voltage is set in the factory or there's usually an option for 36 or 48 V option, all it does is cut the battery power t the low voltage cut off.

Yeah motors can take a lot of voltage but it all equals to more watts so watch the heat and the acceleration, hard acceleration are a killer on the cheaper geared hubs.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

No Switch, usually the cut off voltage is set in the factory or there's usually an option for 36 or 48 V option, all it does is cut the battery power t the low voltage cut off.

Look at the link to the controller I put up. There is no option to select whether you want a 36V or a 48V controller and the seller did not ask me which I wanted. And I have confirmation that the item is shipped.

I suspect it can do both and will just sense which to be when you present it with a battery. If you connect a battery that is 42.5V or below, it will be a 36V controller. And if you present over 42.5V it will be a 48V controller. Or something like that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool, yes , expensive hobby, since I had 2 Kids my cycling time is severely limited to non existent

Have you sold all your stuff or are you keeping it?

unkel

Not going to butcher the current battery / controller up until I have bypassed them successfully. Opened up the battery pack and it looks like this:



There's also another cable coming out at the other end of the battery connected to an on / off switch

Any ideas on the above question marks?

The White also looks like the negative.

The cables appear to be joined, Blue, White are negative.

The little board ? God knows. Could be some kind of step down voltage regulator to power a light , etc. Try take a pic of the board with the print on the chips, one of them looks like it has glue to hold down the capacitor.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

The little board ? God knows. Could be some kind of step down voltage regulator to power a light

Yeah it looks like it is connected to the plug that is connected to the lights on the outside of the case

Ordered a load more stuff last night. All cheap, i.e. 13S balance board BMS for €7 including shipping

Pulled the plug on a vruzend kit too. Not cheap. Feel like I'm only doing a half job if I don't build my own battery

What do you do with all the stuff you're no longer using?

unkel

Pain in the neck waiting for the various items to arrive by snail mail. Patience is not one of my virtues

Anyway, thinking ahead already/ Once I get the current setup beefed up with 30A 48V controller, I'll probably want to make the bike AWD. Similar to the rear I could get one of these bad boys:



Bafang 48V geared hub motor €119 including shipping.

Linky


Various setups possible. Simplest would be for the motors to have their own 30A controllers and their own throttles, both drawing from the same 48V battery. 3kW in total

Was talking to Stagg cycles in Lucan and they would re-build my front wheel with it for very reasonable cost of about €35 + cost of the spokes (which can vary quite a bit)

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Pain in the neck waiting for the various items to arrive by snail mail. Patience is not one of my virtues

Anyway, thinking ahead already/ Once I get the current setup beefed up with 30A 48V controller, I'll probably want to make the bike AWD. Similar to the rear I could get one of these bad boys:



Bafang 48V geared hub motor €119 including shipping.

Linky


Various setups possible. Simplest would be for the motors to have their own 30A controllers and their own throttles, both drawing from the same 48V battery. 3kW in total

Was talking to Stagg cycles in Lucan and they would re-build my front wheel with it for very reasonable cost of about €35 + cost of the spokes (which can vary quite a bit)

Just get one of the Em3ev upgraded MAC motors and run 2 Kw through it. Save you all the hassle.

unkel

Like that one that you linked to before?

linky

AT €550 + shipping that's a lot of money for just a motor kit with max 1500W. More than my whole setup including bike itself with 1500W max on front + 1500W max on rear plus + beefed up battery + new controllers and everything else would cost me

And I can understand how torque can be problematic for wheels and forks in hub motors, but surely it must be far more problematic for wear on the drive train (with gears!!!) for a mid drive? The whole mid drive motor setup doesn't make sense to me - unless it is of course the human powering it

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Like that one that you linked to before?

linky

AT €550 + shipping that's a lot of money for just a motor kit with max 1500W. More than my whole setup including bike itself with 1500W max on front + 1500W max on rear plus + beefed up battery + new controllers and everything else would cost me

And I can understand how torque can be problematic for wheels and forks in hub motors, but surely it must be far more problematic for wear on the drive train (with gears!!!) for a mid drive? The whole mid drive motor setup doesn't make sense to me - unless it is of course the human powering it

Get a rear hub like this

https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-ebike-kit-with-47-50v-battery-option-and-black-case-controller-2000w-max/

8T mac, 48 Volts 28 Mph and great fun.

Of course the battery will cost a lot or make a LiPo pack.

do it once, do it right.

unkel

Yeah I was looking at them alright. But I already have a perfectly fine rear hub motor. Not going to replace that. And you confuse my budget with the one you used to have. I like a champagne lifestyle but I only have a beer income, remember?

I've done a good bit more research today and decided that indeed a mid drive is not for me. I understand this is the superior setup for serious trail bikers or people climbing mountains, but I'm not either. And the motor is far more expensive than a hub motor. Add in the chance of drivetrain failure leaving you by the side of the road (even if you replace all the drivetrain bits with expensive ones) vs the redundancy of hub motors and that's me out of ever wanting a mid motor.

My next steps:

1. Use 8Ah new 36V battery to prove that the problem with the kit cutting out is caused by the current degraded battery
2. If proven, bypass the current weak controller, stick in the new 30A Chinese one, connect a throttle, build a small 48V (13S2p) battery for up to 1.5kW (minus losses) through the rear hub motor If proven to work, rip out the current battery / controller setup and customise it for a larger 48V (13S4P) battery with BMS and cell balancing
3. Eventually turn it into an AWD bike. If anyone sees a dirt cheap front geared hub motor kit for 27.5" wheels, let me know

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Yeah I was looking at them alright. But I already have a perfectly fine rear hub motor. Not going to replace that. And you confuse my budget with the one you used to have. I like a champagne lifestyle but I only have a beer income, remember?

I've done a good bit more research today and decided that indeed a mid drive is not for me. I understand this is the superior setup for serious trail bikers or people climbing mountains, but I'm not either. And the motor is far more expensive than a hub motor. Add in the chance of drivetrain failure leaving you by the side of the road (even if you replace all the drivetrain bits with expensive ones) vs the redundancy of hub motors and that's me out of ever wanting a mid motor.

My next steps:

1. Use 8Ah new 36V battery to prove that the problem with the kit cutting out is caused by the current degraded battery
2. If proven, bypass the current weak controller, stick in the new 30A Chinese one, connect a throttle, build a small 48V (13S2p) battery for up to 1.5kW (minus losses) through the rear hub motor If proven to work, rip out the current battery / controller setup and customise it for a larger 48V (13S4P) battery with BMS and cell balancing
3. Eventually turn it into an AWD bike. If anyone sees a dirt cheap front geared hub motor kit for 27.5" wheels, let me know

See , you'd be very surprised how quick everything adds up and you could find yourself spending a lot more than you intended anyway.

Yeah Hubs are fine but you'd be surprised how many big hills I climbed with the 8T Mac and even a magic pie II motor, I ripped out the internal controller and rewired it.

That direct drive motor you have should take a lot of abuse but you might first want to re-wire the phase wires to the motor but see how it goes first, should be good for 2 Kw.

8Ah of battery won't last long. Lipo is your man ! some day you'll believe me !

unkel

Oh I believe you alright.

But the budget just isn't there for spending on batteries. I've decided to go the self build route. Bought the cheap tester that the likes of Jehu Garcia uses. Got vruzend kit, got soldering iron on the way too. Going to rip apart the existing degraded battery and hopefully between that, and the 40 odd batteries I already have, I can get to a decent pack. If not, it's fairly easy for me to get my hands on laptop batteries.

Quite likely that I will come out the other end of this wanting to build a LiFePo4 battery alright

Any cells you would recommend (eBay etc. link with reasonable prices incl shipping)? And what setup did you make, 15S?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Oh I believe you alright.

But the budget just isn't there for spending on batteries. I've decided to go the self build route. Bought the cheap tester that the likes of Jehu Garcia uses. Got vruzend kit, got soldering iron on the way too. Going to rip apart the existing degraded battery and hopefully between that, and the 40 odd batteries I already have, I can get to a decent pack. If not, it's fairly easy for me to get my hands on laptop batteries.

Quite likely that I will come out the other end of this wanting to build a LiFePo4 battery alright

Any cells you would recommend (eBay etc. link with reasonable prices incl shipping)? And what setup did you make, 15S?

To run 48V originally I used the ping battery I linked to earlier in the thread , remember ?

Then I upped that to around 64 volts with LiPo with the Mac 8T kit. Even 44 volts will be plenty fast with the 8T Mac but with direct drive, depending on the winding you'd probably want 52 volts but it's not going to make a huge difference.

LiPo is 4.2 Volts per cell hot off the charger so 4.2 X 12 S would give you 50 volts, so 4 x 5 Ah 6 S packs would give you 10 Ah 50 volts hot off the charger but, ideally you'd charge it to 4.15 volts max to help extend the life, you can set this in the RC charger.

No, I would not recommend old Li Laptop cells, too risky if you short something you risk fire, too easy happen.

You will need a way to weld the tabs with proper fuseable links.

You'll also need to match cells with similar internal resistance.

That would be a major pain in the ass.

At least with a couple of LiPo bricks you can join them together with the 30 Amp Anderson connectors and if you create a short the connection vaporises and acts like a handy safety device.

LiFeP04 is not ideal for ebikes, too bulky and heavy, there's much better alternatives these days.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I would not recommend old Li Laptop cells, too risky if you short something you risk fire, too easy happen.

You will need a way to weld the tabs with proper fuseable links.

You'll also need to match cells with similar internal resistance.

That would be a major pain in the ass.

Yes, pain in the ass, but cheap (free).

Using the vruzend kit (expensive, but won't depreciate), you're not familiar with it? No need for any welding. Will use BMS and battery as a whole will be fused. Only soldering needed is the BMS main wires, even the balance wires can all be crimped and connected to the screw on terminals. None of this will ever be stored or worked on indoors (apart from shed). You really need to take the piss for this to be going on fire like purposefully shorting it or piercing a cell

Deleted User wrote: »

LiFeP04 is not ideal for ebikes, too bulky and heavy, there's much better alternatives these days.

Like what? Link to any cell on eBay?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Yes, pain in the ass, but cheap (free).

Using the vruzend kit (expensive, but won't depreciate), you're not familiar with it?

No I'm not familiar with that particular kit but seem similar before. The problem you're going to have is matching cells with close internal resistance and it's still not fool proof as you can easily connect one cell with wrong polarity.

The other issue will be finding decent cells, what I would suggest is head over to endless-sphere and see if you can find a reputable source there.

unkel wrote: »

Like what? Link to any cell on eBay?

I don't have links but I had LiFeP04 before , it just isn't suitable for ebikes and sure you can get a small pack but then most likely you won't have the range or it can't push out the amps.

None of the big ebike manufacturers, that I know of , or ever used LiFeP04 and for good reason.

To be honest, Cheap 20 C LiPo from hobby king will save you a lot of messing around and it will be new and probably not work out a lot more expensive, sure you got to get a RC charger + Power Supply but they can easily be sold on if you get bored.

LiPO can also be charged at very high currents safely , with caution of course.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

No I'm not familiar with that particular kit but seem similar before. The problem you're going to have is matching cells with close internal resistance and it's still not fool proof as you can easily connect one cell with wrong polarity.

You haven't heard of Micah Toll then either? The vruzend kit was a big success on kickstarter last year. It has improved since then and here is the latest version of the kit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rylbFnTgFI8

I guess you were out of the scene by the time all this came up?

But yeah have to be careful not to short the pack. I'll do a few practice dry runs first I think. I don't see it as a pain, more an interesting hobby. And when I'm done with the kit, I have no doubt I can sell it on with minimal loss - like I usually do. So no money wasted.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

You haven't heard of Micah Toll then either? The vruzend kit was a big success on kickstarter last year. It has improved since then and here is the latest version of the kit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rylbFnTgFI8

I guess you were out of the scene by the time all this came up?

But yeah have to be careful not to short the pack. I'll do a few practice dry runs first I think. I don't see it as a pain, more an interesting hobby. And when I'm done with the kit, I have no doubt I can sell it on with minimal loss - like I usually do. So no money wasted.

Not at all, there's been kits similar to that long ago when the Headway LiFePo4 cylindrical cells came on the scene but the problem for me was weight and bulk, and LiFeP04 is heavy and bulky enough without adding those plastic cell holders but it would be handy actually maybe to make up a small battery for one of my Ham Radios, but LiPo Pouch cells are just a whole lot easier , they are lighter and they can give out all the amps I ever need and they are cheap.

unkel

This is the only solderless 18650 kit I have heard off. Not even yet cloned by the Chinese. Obviously LiFePo4 cells already have built in screw terminals, making it far easier to connect them with plates. These are of course still far too expensive for me to start using

It's easy to do this but remember , the greatest and most absolute pain in the arse you'll have is matching cells unless the source has already done this and you're ok with trusting them, again, over to endless-sphere and try get recommendations.

For me another beauty of using RC LiPo is that I do not have to use an expensive BMS which can be another point of failure and I can run all the power I want direct through the battery, to me a BMS is not required. Of course I have to use an RC charger if they go out of balance but have that anyway.

You can bulk charge LiPO, without BMS easily as long as the cell voltages are monitored and you use a proper charger for LiPo.

If your cells are old and high internal resistance and are too mismatched you will have issues with out of balance , so closely matched cells are a must really.

Best of luck , it will be a good learning experience for you too. Keep us updated

unkel

The cells are all from unknown sources, so will have to be tested. A bit of a pain, but we are talking dozens here, not hundreds. I'd do it for the experience alone. You can't become a proper chef without doing the dishes burning your hands and chopping the veg cutting your fingers

Deleted User wrote: »

that I do not have to use an expensive BMS

Expensive BMS? The 13S I just ordered was €7 including shipping and that includes the balancing leads too

unkel

unkel wrote: »

The cells are all from unknown sources, so will have to be tested. A bit of a pain, but we are talking dozens here, not hundreds. I'd do it for the experience alone. You can't become a proper chef without doing the dishes burning your hands and chopping the veg cutting your fingers




Expensive BMS? The 13S I just ordered was €7 including shipping and that includes the balancing leads too

LOL Holy Sh1t ! Can't wait to see this up and running !

Don't leave it in the house lol.

Use google search engine as it's meant to be used, type the below into the search box, then on the options search within the last year. You might find something interesting.

battery cell source site:endless-sphere.com

unkel

That is a great resource. Thanks for sharing!

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That is a great resource. Thanks for sharing!

Welcome, yes it's a great resource. Enjoy !

unkel

My first Vruzend battery build this evening from 18650 cells forcefully removed from dead laptop batteries I got for free

Look mama, I made a 10S 36V battery!

unkel

What seems to be the standard yoke that everyone uses to determine 18650 capacity: LiitoKala Lii-500 is ordered and on the way.

Last step is to measure battery internal resistance. Could of course buy another tool for this, but I thought this would be an easy measurement. Measure voltage of cell. Stick in a 1 Ohm resistor in series and measure voltage again. Resistance is then voltage drop / voltage under load, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av38iBxcOgQ

When I stick in the 1 Ohm 11W resistor I bought today in RS Radionics, nothing happens, voltages are the same. What am I doing wrong here? Sir Liam?

Well done no stopping you now !

What way are you supposed to connect the radiator?

unkel

So made it into a 10S2P pack, crimped a fuse and an XT60 on it and charging...



Bypassed the existing battery and hooked it up to the controller. Working fine. Getting decent bit of range from it too, even though it is tiny. Which strengthened my feelings that the existing battery was toast and that there was nothing wrong with controller / motor

Took the existing battery apart (not without shorting it once or twice LOL ), measured all 40 cells and indeed, there were 9 cells not charging beyond 3.6V, causing the BMS to cut off the battery very early (particularly under full load) and explaining the poor range. The vast majority of the Samsung cells were charged to around 4.15V, so will be re-used :cool:

Deleted User wrote: »

What way are you supposed to connect the radiator?

The resistor? Looks like they have it in parallel, maybe I went wrong there, must try again

unkel

Put a watt meter between battery and controller. Tested it in the park and getting max 300W draw so not much more than 250W at the motor, LOL! That controller wasn't joking with the "7A" sticker on it 7A * 42V = about 300W. This eBike is 100% road legal (for the moment) :pac:

As soon as I get my 30A 48V controller, this original 36V controller will be ripped out anyway, so I might as well have a bit of craic with it. Increased my vruzend battery pack from 10S2P to 13S2P, 54.4V yeah!

Hooked it up and surprise, surprise it works just fine and the eBike is now a whole lot quicker

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Put a watt meter between battery and controller. Tested it in the park and getting max 300W draw so not much more than 250W at the motor, LOL! That controller wasn't joking with the "7A" sticker on it 7A * 42V = about 300W. This eBike is 100% road legal (for the moment) :pac:

As soon as I get my 30A 48V controller, this original 36V controller will be ripped out anyway, so I might as well have a bit of craic with it. Increased my vruzend battery pack from 10S2P to 13S2P, 54.4V yeah!

Hooked it up and surprise, surprise it works just fine and the eBike is now a whole lot quicker

Is 7 amps and God knows what Peak current not a lot for those old Laptop cells ?

unkel

Remember I put 25A through those hover board packs? They were essentially 10S2P packs made with cheap 18650s

7A through this pack and the batteries didn't even warm up at all

New controller is 30A but I will take it handy enough as long as I have only one 13S2P pack. Micah calls it a "mighty mini" Have nearly enough cells now for another one, now that I can re-use about 26 cells from the dead battery. But even this mighty mini should be able to occasionally take 15A no bother for 800W (3.8C) and the vruzend kit is rated at 20A. If I'll make another pack (have to buy another vruzend kit for that), I'll parallel them and I might be brave enough to do a quick top speed test. Should be fun with 1600W

unkel

Tested the bike with the new battery today, getting 520W. That's better but I can't wait til I get my new controller

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Tested the bike with the new battery today, getting 520W. That's better but I can't wait til I get my new controller

Wait til you're at 5 Kw ! lol