Creches exposed again

Dravokivich

drunkmonkey wrote: »

She's got a drink or drug problem you can see it in her face, a proper bag of cats.

Sardonicat wrote: »

Yeah, thought she looked at bit ropey alright.

Mod-

No unfounded speculation. Do we really need to ask you keep to the topic and away from slander?

Ms2011

scarepanda wrote: »

Ms2011 wrote:

I wouldn't say impossible. Up until 2 years ago we were paying a Dublin mortgage & keeping 2 cars on the road on just my husband's forklift driving wage. Was it easy? No but doable with good budgeting . I know everyone's circumstances, family goals etc are different but to say it can't be done is not necessarily true.

It's hard though. We're a single income family, not living in Dublin, although there is a commute to Dublin a couple days a week. My husband's income is pretty good, were not big spenders by any means and we have every penny accounted for, but we still wouldn't be able to live anywhere near Dublin and be able to afford for me to stay at home.

Definitely not easy but we did it.
Ultimately we wanted a more rural life so moved an hour outside Dublin and are now mortgage free which makes a big difference, we might even get a holiday next year!!

Ms2011

McGaggs wrote: »

Ms2011 wrote: »

I wouldn't say impossible. Up until 2 years ago we were paying a Dublin mortgage & keeping 2 cars on the road on just my husband's forklift driving wage.
Was it easy? No but doable with good budgeting .
I know everyone's circumstances, family goals etc are different but to say it can't be done is not necessarily true.

Doesn't forklift driving pay quite well?

Average I would say, not minimum wage but not a massive wage either.

Dog Man Star

Always amazes me when parents think a creche will look after their children as well as you do. If you want your child to be raised properly, do it yourself. The old fashioned way.

Creches are cages. Just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right.

I have three children, raised by their mother. No way am I sending them to a pound for the day, glorious career or not.

Guess what: your child's welfare takes priority over your glorious career drinking coffee in HR in some anonymous insurance company who would fire you in one second.

On my way to work, I see maybe 15 children playing in a garden smaller than my own. On my way home, I pass by them again, still there, with another two hours to go, while I eat my dinner with my children, who have been home for two hours.

I feel so sorry for those children. They are unwanted, the staff are doing their best, but those children just want to go home. But their parents farm them out, every day.

They actually complain during holidays, when they actually have to spend time with their children.

What a nightmare.

v638sg7k1a92bx

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You don’t need to point me to the 80’s as I was there rearing children
The house prices were not comparable to now and mortgages and rents a much lower percentage of our wages . We managed because our outgoing matched our income on one wage
It is now almost impossible for a family on an average wage to live on one wage. I help out with child minding for my family because I know how difficult it is for them now

That’s the point. We’re led to believe that things are so much better than the eighties when the reality is that families have to take out 40 year mortgages that requires both parents to become wage slaves just to repay their debt and pay bills.

The whole thing is a ponzi scheme!

v638sg7k1a92bx

Ms2011 wrote: »

Definitely not easy but we did it.
Ultimately we wanted a more rural life so moved an hour outside Dublin and are now mortgage free which makes a big difference, we might even get a holiday next year!!

That’s the other thing. People also need to be realistic about their expectations about where they want to live, their careers and their families. One of those things has to give.

Hannibal_Smith

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

That’s the other thing. People also need to be realistic about their expectations about where they want to live, their careers and their families. One of those things has to give.

One of those things doesn't have to give. Women are allowed to work and so they should. Both parents working didn't force this woman to open a creche, over crowd it and to carry on with the children like she does.

Both parents working didn't create the beast that she is, she did. There are plenty of fantastic creches out there who do excellent work. If both parents chose to work they shouldn't expect their child to be mistreated, or to not be surprised if they are.

Blaizes

awec wrote: »

Well I doubt they are working just to pay the child care bills.

If someone's salary brings home more than the child care costs then of course it makes sense to work.

If someone's salary brings home less than the child care cost it doesn't make sense to work, and in my experience people in this scenario do not work.

You’re right to a point about not working if it doesn’t make financial sense to do so but there is another side to this as well.

If a woman gives up her job to stay at home and raise the kids and lets her husband or partner be the breadwinner what happens if the relationship breaks down.

The woman will now be without an income( apart from child maintenance) she will also be out of the loop workwise and may find it difficult to gain employment again, skills being outdated etc. And if the relationship stays intact, the kids will still grow up and a woman who wants to return to the workplace may again still be considered unemployable.

I know working women who just break even after paying childcare but still choose to work probably for some of the above reasons as well as enjoying their work.

There are no easy answers. In other countries the grandparents help out more with the children, which I think is lovely, but obviously this only works where parents live near their own families.

Dravokivich

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Always amazes me when parents think a creche will look after their children as well as you do. If you want your child to be raised properly, do it yourself. The old fashioned way.

Creches are cages. Just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right.

I have three children, raised by their mother. No way am I sending them to a pound for the day, glorious career or not.

Guess what: your child's welfare takes priority over your glorious career drinking coffee in HR in some anonymous insurance company who would fire you in one second.

On my way to work, I see maybe 15 children playing in a garden smaller than my own. On my way home, I pass by them again, still there, with another two hours to go, while I eat my dinner with my children, who have been home for two hours.

I feel so sorry for those children. They are unwanted, the staff are doing their best, but those children just want to go home. But their parents farm them out, every day.

They actually complain during holidays, when they actually have to spend time with their children.

What a nightmare.

Mod-

Can we please keep to the topic and not make this a childcare vs stay at home debate.

Dog Man Star

Dravokivich wrote: »

Mod-

Can we please keep to the topic and not make this a childcare vs stay at home debate.

Yes we could, but as I said, no one will look after your children better than you. To exclude this from this debate is like asking "which gas chamber is best?"

Care of your child is down to you.

Leave your glorious career and raise your child. Otherwise, put your child through psychological torture in a toddler farm. 5 days, ten-hours a week each.

I would shoot myself than put any of my children through that.

You are robbing their childhoods and destroying them as adults. Yet, there are loads doing it. A pox on them, an evil bunch destroying their children.

iamwhoiam

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Yes we could, but as I said, no one will look after your children better than you. To exclude this from this debate is like asking "which gas chamber is best?"

Care of your child is down to you.

Leave your glorious career and raise your child. Otherwise, put your child through psychological torture in a toddler farm. 5 days, ten-hours a week each.

I would shoot myself than put any of my children through that.

You are robbing their childhoods and destroying them as adults. Yet, there are loads doing it. A pox on them, an evil bunch destroying their children.

Well aren’t you just wonderful . Lets hope your kids don’t learn intolerance from you while at home

Dravokivich

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Yes we could, but as I said, no one will look after your children better than you. To exclude this from this debate is like asking "which gas chamber is best?"

Care of your child is down to you.

Leave your glorious career and raise your child. Otherwise, put your child through psychological torture in a toddler farm. 5 days, ten-hours a week each.

I would shoot myself than put any of my children through that.

You are robbing their childhoods and destroying them as adults. Yet, there are loads doing it. A pox on them, an evil bunch destroying their children.

Mod-

I've asked kindly, you've acknowledged and you decided to continue. I'm not going to ask a second time.

eviltwin

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Yes we could, but as I said, no one will look after your children better than you. To exclude this from this debate is like asking "which gas chamber is best?"

Care of your child is down to you.

Leave your glorious career and raise your child. Otherwise, put your child through psychological torture in a toddler farm. 5 days, ten-hours a week each.

I would shoot myself than put any of my children through that.

You are robbing their childhoods and destroying them as adults. Yet, there are loads doing it. A pox on them, an evil bunch destroying their children.

Well I have another take. My son is 9 and autistic and goes to an after school service run by a local crèche. It has been amazing for his socialisation, he is mixing with kids in a way he can't at school and it's helped him immensely.

I work from home at times and have the option to keep my son at home with me and he begs to go because he loves it so much. The staff are amazing and it's been hugely positive for our family.

GreeBo

The population of the 70s was nearly half of what we have now, there were also fewer people living alone and bedsits were more popular, hence it was far easier to buy a house on a single income than it is now.


Did any of these parents report their misgivings to tusla or just to rte?

Dravokivich

GreeBo wrote: »

The population of the 70s was nearly half of what we have now, there were also fewer people living alone and bedsits were more popular, hence it was far easier to buy a house on a single income than it is now.


Did any of these parents report their misgivings to tusla or just to rte?

Haha Tusla. What do you think they'll do? They spent 14 months persuing this crowd for paper work, with nothing to make them do it.

GreeBo

Dravokivich wrote: »

Haha Tusla. What do you think they'll do? They spent 14 months persuing this crowd for paper work, with nothing to make them do it.

Well since they are responsible for creche facilities in Ireland you'd think someone would let them know... even aswell as rte.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Dravokivich wrote: »

Mod-

Can we please keep to the topic and not make this a childcare vs stay at home debate.

What’s the topic then?

Dravokivich

GreeBo wrote: »

Well since they are responsible for creche facilities in Ireland you'd think someone would let them know... even aswell as rte.

Tusla knew. Every article I read about it, showed tusla knew. And still they were unable to do anything even when chasing paper work for an unlicensed premises that should not have been providing child care services, but continued to do so.

Dravokivich

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

What’s the topic then?

I never thought I'd need to provide a summary but...

It's about investigations into sub standard child care facilities.

starbaby2003

GreeBo wrote: »

Did any of these parents report their misgivings to tusla or just to rte?

I emailed Tusla to gain clarity on the ECCE scheme. Their correspondence with me left me in no doubt, they haven’t a NOTION of what is going on both in the early childcare schemes and crèche practices. Seriously you should email them about something to gauge how bad it is.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

One of those things doesn't have to give. Women are allowed to work and so they should. Both parents working didn't force this woman to open a creche, over crowd it and to carry on with the children like she does.

Both parents working didn't create the beast that she is, she did. There are plenty of fantastic creches out there who do excellent work. If both parents chose to work they shouldn't expect their child to be mistreated, or to not be surprised if they are.

Who said women weren’t allowed to work! Jumping to a certain bias there I see.
The reality is that the requirement for both parent to work is why there is a need for crèche facilities in the first place and the the requirement for both parents to work means parents feel they have no other choice but to send their kids to a crèche.
Most parents don’t choose to send their kids to a crèche.

Hannibal_Smith

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

Who said women weren’t allowed to work! Jumping to a certain bias there I see.
The reality is that the requirement for both parent to work is why there is a need for crèche facilities in the first place and the the requirement for both parents to work means parents feel they have no other choice but to send their kids to a crèche.
Most parents don’t choose to send their kids to a crèche.

You're the one lamenting the 80s where people survived on one wage. The change since the 80s is the increase in female workers. No bias there Both parents working does not justify poor child care provision. What this woman was advocating in her creches was dangerous.

Millem

I found it very hard to watch. Tulsa are beyond a joke. Nothing will be done and I have no doubt that the family will continue to operate the crèches in question and may even expand their business.

Milly33

Just watching the show now and feeling very angry, not at the Hide and Seek place as such but more Tulsa.. What a bunch of muppets it is mad to think how stupid they are and that a creche could open (a purpose built creche) and no checks are done on it..

Fecking mad so it is, just wondering who do they know, since it seems like they are getting away with this.. Kinda seems like people who have no notion of what they are doing are in charge of something very important, like being a teacher and then going into politics.

Also have to question the parents, i mean if you walked into that creche you would see the layout and beds were not set correctly.

Dravokivich

Theres no conspiracy Milly. Tusla dont have the means to do what they should be doing.

Milly33

now i want to deck that Anne lady... jes tis frustrating to watch. Why are Tulsa there if they are doing nothing.. Ireland is turning into a joke of a country

starbaby2003

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/07/25/public-havent-been-this-angry-since-last-creche-expose-in-2013/

Ministry for neglecting children. Would be a funny article if it wasn’t so spot on.

salmocab

Dravokivich wrote: »

Theres no conspiracy Milly. Tusla dont have the means to do what they should be doing.

They do not have the knowledge or skills to do what they are supposed to. Tusla is not fit for purpose.

paska

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

Exactly. Every month I read about restaurant closures on the journal. They get shut down on the spot if they flout certain regulations. People see a name on the list and immediately say, woah, never eating there again. Why dont crèches get shut down on the spot?

Because Tusla is responsible for them.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

You're the one lamenting the 80s where people survived on one wage. The change since the 80s is the increase in female workers. No bias there Both parents working does not justify poor child care provision. What this woman was advocating in her creches was dangerous.

No lamenting just pointing out facts until you wanted to show everyone how woke you are. More women in the work force but also more women up to their neck in debt paying off 40 year mortgages while sending their kids off to be raised by someone on starvation wages!

The chain to the kitchen sink has been replaced with the shackles of financial debt.

Hannibal_Smith

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

No lamenting just pointing out facts until you wanted to show everyone how woke you are. More women in the work force but also more women up to their neck in debt paying off 40 year mortgages while sending their kids off to be raised by someone on starvation wages!

The chain to the kitchen sink has been replaced with the shackles of financial debt.

How do you know how 'woke' I am. What label are you trying to stick on me exactly and why can you not just stick to the topic rather than floundering in trying to label another poster?

How does financial debt of a worker have a direct cause on some one face planting a kid into a cot? It's had to be explained to you by a moderator what the thread is about. But you still grapple with kitchen sinks and debt?

brokensoul

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

No lamenting just pointing out facts until you wanted to show everyone how woke you are. More women in the work force but also more women up to their neck in debt paying off 40 year mortgages while sending their kids off to be raised by someone on starvation wages!

The chain to the kitchen sink has been replaced with the shackles of financial debt.

Why is it that when people have complaints about two working parent families their solution is never that the man might give up working outside the home in order to raise the children?

v638sg7k1a92bx

brokensoul wrote: »

Why is it that when people have complaints about two working parent families their solution is never that the man might give up working outside the home in order to raise the children?

I was wondering how long it would take before this was turned into a gender debate rather than acknowledge the underlying reasons why both parents are required to work just to put a roof over their head. Handballing kids, traffic, sitting behind a desk for 9 hours and a then car for another 2 hours. Everyone talking about the conditions in the crèche rather than acknowledge the underlying issues as to why families are put in these circumstances in the first place.

Hannibal_Smith

Dravokivich wrote: »

I never thought I'd need to provide a summary but...

It's about investigations into sub standard child care facilities.

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

I was wondering how long it would take before this was turned into a gender debate rather than acknowledge the underlying reasons why both parents are required to work just to put a roof over their head. Handballing kids, traffic, sitting behind a desk for 9 hours and a then car for another 2 hours. Everyone talking about the conditions in the crèche rather than acknowledge the underlying issues as to why families are put in these circumstances in the first place.

Both parents could have great careers that they've invested a lot of education and time in. Who knows? The thread isn't about why people work. The conditions of the creche are exactly the topic!

v638sg7k1a92bx

brokensoul wrote: »

Why is it that when people have complaints about two working parent families their solution is never that the man might give up working outside the home in order to raise the children?

I was wondering how long it would take before this was turned into a gender debate rather than acknowledge the underlying reasons why both parents are required to work just to put a roof over their head. Handballing kids, traffic, sitting behind a desk for 9 hours and a then car for another 2 hours. Everyone talking about the conditions in the crèche rather than acknowledge the underlying issues as to why families are put in these circumstances in the first place.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Both parents could have great careers that they've invested a lot of education and time in. Who knows? The thread isn't about why people work. The conditions of the creche are exactly the topic!

A very very small percentage of the population will have “great careers”.
We get this every couple of years about these child care facilities! it was the same thing about giraffe franchise a few years ago. Why don’t people acknowledge that crèches are a bad solution in the first instance and discuss the underlying reasons as to why people send their kids there in the first place.

Think about this logically for a few seconds. Most parents would not send their kids to a crèche if they didn’t have to. So why don’t we ask why families are put in this situation in the first place rather than talk about which crèche is better than the next.

pwurple

I love how the people telling us that children should be at home full time are both men, who didn’t do the childcare themselves. Larf.

Neyite was spot on, women have always worked.

There was a short blip in the 80’s where there was a HUGE tax bonus from the government for parents to stay at home. Married people with only one working effectively got the tax credits of three people, and there were tax credits for dependent children also. I know well, because both my parents worked in our family business, and I helped pull the paperwork for their taxes together from about the age of 13. (My dad had left school with a Primary certificate under his belt, 12 or 13 was qualified enough for me).

This tax system was removed in the 90’s by Charlie mcCreevy under tax individualization. If you want this back again, feel free to campaign, because that would be the major change needed to allow an average family to run on one wage. The cost to the exchequer would be enormous btw.

Pension age change is another factor. Previously, retired grandparents did a lot of childcare. My government nominated retirement age is something like 68. My potential future grandkids will probably be fairly grown up by the time that comes around... I had my kids in my early 30’s.

Our wealth and consumerism is the third large one. In the 80s how many people had mobile phones and were running bills for them? How many electronic devices were in a house? How many people had travel insurance or health insurance. My VHI for the family costs me 3,000 per year. I saw one avocado as a kid during the 80’s. One, and it was practically the talk of the party. Now they are spooned into babies at a euro a pop. Did you know anyone then with a gym membership? Or people who changed cars on a PCP every 3 years.

Mobility. We move away from our extended family a lot more now. It is great, gives amazing freedom. Does not give much unpaid family childcare.


Family circumstances. Spouses get sick or die. Marriages break down. Single people have children. Not everyone is a two parent family.


So yeah. If you want to have that conversation about how Creche’s are needed, I think they are. Good quality, caring, well paid childcare.

Hannibal_Smith

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

A very very small percentage of the population will have “great careers”.
We get this every couple of years about these child care facilities! it was the same thing about giraffe franchise a few years ago. Why don’t people acknowledge that crèches are a bad solution in the first instance and discuss the underlying reasons as to why people send their kids there in the first place.

Think about this logically for a few seconds. Most parents would not send their kids to a crèche if they didn’t have to. So why don’t we ask why families are put in this situation in the first place rather than talk about which crèche is better than the next.

Very few have great careers, you've a lovely opinion of your peers. Unless you do a survey of why people put kids in creche I'm not sure how you're going to get an answer on the whys?

Creche was a terrific option for us. I loved our creche, the kids loved it. Their friends are kids they met there. Some of their favourite stories are books they read there. But that's a different thread.

mirrorwall14

My kid adores crèche. Being home with mammy is just not as much fun. He gets grumpy, misses his friends and wants to go. It’s share day today and it literally took him all yesterday evening and this morning to decide which toy he would bring in with him!

Having said that I can’t see how they got away with this unless they don’t have an open door policy? Like there are parents/grandparents in and out of our crèche all day long using the code to get in and collect/drop off. No way could you hide ratios or a cot room in that mess or yelling/crying like that.

My son hurt his knee in the garden pretending to be a power ranger recently. I arrived for pick up just after it happened. He roared the whole way out the door in my arms (he wanted me to say I wouldn’t clean it!) and heads popped out of doors all over the place to check what was happening/to offer help. They all offered to ring the front office (not leave their rooms). He goes on ‘trips’ to other rooms during breaks so ratios are correct.

The parents handbook is 25 pages long. The policy and procedures document is over 300 pages long and as far as I can tell everything is always followed to the letter

Hoboo

Lisa Full Robbery wrote: »

A very very small percentage of the population will have “great careers”.
We get this every couple of years about these child care facilities! it was the same thing about giraffe franchise a few years ago. Why don’t people acknowledge that crèches are a bad solution in the first instance and discuss the underlying reasons as to why people send their kids there in the first place.

Think about this logically for a few seconds. Most parents would not send their kids to a crèche if they didn’t have to. So why don’t we ask why families are put in this situation in the first place rather than talk about which crèche is better than the next.

Families put themselves in that situation, need to ask parents why they're having kids they can't rear themselves.

Wanderer78

Hoboo wrote:

Families put themselves in that situation, need to ask parents why they're having kids they can't rear themselves.

Or maybe there's something wrong with the rising cost of living?

Hoboo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Or maybe there's something wrong with the rising cost of living?

One of the main causes of inflation is demand, so less children would be a start.

salmocab

Hoboo wrote: »

Families put themselves in that situation, need to ask parents why they're having kids they can't rear themselves.

We would have a population issue if we stopped having children based on only needing one income.

Wanderer78

Hoboo wrote:

One of the main causes of inflation is demand, so less children would be a start.

And one of the main rising cost of housing has been the rapid increase in credit, globally, we can't keep this up

shesty

We educate women.We pay a lot of taxpayers money to educate women and men in this country.

Going around and stating that women should stay at home once they have a baby basically negates all of that.

And it is extremely difficult for a woman to get back into a workplace once they are gone for 5/6+ years to have a couple of kids and raise them, even just through the early years.

And ya know...us women are people too.Maybe we would like to spend some time in our week on something other than doing taxi driver for our kids social lives or listening to demands to get drinks and food, or breaking up squabbles between siblings.

None of us can have it every way and that includes men.

Hoboo

salmocab wrote: »

We would have a population issue if we stopped having children based on only needing one income.

We have a massive population issue as it is right now!

Sammy2012

Honestly I think there are problems in a lot of creches that are going unreported.

I've been very lucky with both my kids in that my mam minded them for me until they started ECCE. My youngest is starting now in September but I'm far more aware of things than I was when I sent my first. I finished work at 2.30 every day so my youngest will do the same as my oldest in that she'll do ECCE until 12 and then stay for lunch and I'll pick her up before 3. She's only doing one year as she'll be started primary in September 2020.

However I only found out that my oldest never ate a vegetable the whole time she was there when she old me one day. The staff never mentioned it to me. They rarely go outside even though they have excellent outdoor facilities. Other creches in the area have lots of outdoor time. Even though it annoyed me I didnt say much as my kid was home in the evenings and could do stuff with me but what about kids who are there until 6.30??! Alot of the staff are not into going outside so I do agree with a previous poster saying childcare attracts a certain type of person.

Dont get me wrong there are people in the sector that are excellent and creches that are excellent but I really think they are the minority rather than the norm. I spent yesterday morning comparing creche reports on my creche with the ones my friends kids are attending. Let's just say if I could keep my daughter at home this year I would. The latest tusla report makes for interesting reading. Also I'm shocked that even though the creche has been in a new premises for 9 years theres only one report available online.

Childcare is a minefield. People do not know what to do about it. But there needs to be a debate on our society as a whole as somewhere along the line something has changed so dramatically that our most vulnerable are now at risk.

Hoboo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And one of the main rising cost of housing has been the rapid increase in credit, globally, we can't keep this up

I don't get you. Taking on debt is a choice. Live within ones means, and don't buy or have what you can't afford. Including kids. Otherwise go ahead, but don't blame everyone else for your situation.

Sammy2012

Hoboo wrote: »

Live within ones means, and don't buy or have what you can't afford. Including kids.

It's cheaper now in alot of cases to have a mortgage than pay rent.

Hoboo

Sammy2012 wrote: »

It's cheaper now in alot of cases to have a mortgage than pay rent.

That's true.