Urban Gaeltacht proposed for Nun’s Island

xckjoo

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

Irish is taught terribly in schools, I absolutely hated it and now I hate that I can’t speak it (or very little anyway). It needs a total overhaul in schools and the majority of the curriculum needs to be scrapped.

It should be taught as a spoken language first and foremost, what the hell good is rhyming of verbs or answering question on a piece out of a newspaper etc. scrap it all, not even a book should be opened until people can have a conversation. Make mistakes and learn by speaking not the current nonsense.

Also it’s jot dead and it’s certainly not time to move on, terrible opinion to have of our language.

Totally agree with you here. All languages should be taught to a high spoken degree before worrying about writing it down. Far more practical and useful. What use is being able to read and write it if most people can't speak it? Imagine how much more common it would be if most kids left school able to have a conversation in it.

Mrs OBumble

Butterface wrote: »

The idea of developing a small pocket of the city centre as a Gaeltacht area is that it will influence or encourage Irish speaking.. a rather great idea which requires a rather valiant effort, wouldn't you agree?

To support this idea, those proposing the idea need to attract Irish speakers.
This can be achieved "through the subsidization of rents which can be be tied to salary as wages increase over time until people can meet market prices."

How will the subsidization of rents in this area drive up rents elsewhere?

Would you rather see the Irish language restricted to the few remaining Gaeltacht areas because you think any efforts to continue developing new Gaeltacht areas (which require some proficiency in the language to be a resident) is a restrictive or exclusionary tactic designed to push out foreigners?

The proposal isn't to restrict Irish to one quarter. You'll hear plenty of Irish spoken in Galway City already, if you choose to go to places where it's spoken.

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

RPZ addresses this in theory. Except rents have risen anyways. And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

Ficheall wrote: »

Maybe their parents don't have the same prejudices against the language?

... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.



Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.


PS trolling doesn't mean have an opinion which you disagree with. Or even one which the majority of people disagree with.

xckjoo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The proposal isn't to restrict Irish to one quarter. You'll hear plenty of Irish spoken in Galway City already, if you choose to go to places where it's spoken.

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

RPZ addresses this in theory. Except rents have risen anyways. And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....



... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.



Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.


PS trolling doesn't mean have an opinion which you disagree with. Or even one which the majority of people disagree with.

It's new housing to be built by the University for the University. No removal of anything from the "regular pool". They have a certain Irish language remits that they aren't really fulfilling at the moment so this would help them rebalance things somewhat.
I'd also love to know where you're getting this stuff about African kids picking up languages like they're loose change. If they're fluent in (by your count) 4 languages by the time they finish school then they should be hailed as shining examples of what can be done through immigration. People should be writing research papers about them. Particularly if they're learning Irish since the usual line is that they make no effort to integrate into Irish culture. But I guess to be truly Irish they'll have to moan about the tiny efforts being made to preserve our native language and begrudge anybody who benefits from going to the effort of learning it.

Imreoir2

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

I am not sure that this is what is proposed, but if we take it that it is, then there is no reason to believe that it would have any impact on rents in the rest of the city, negative or otherwise. If a small amount of housing was set aside for professionally-educated Irish speakers then the total housing stock would not be reduced and the segmenting of the housing stock would also segment the housing market and while the non-restrected housing stock would be ever so slightly smaller the demand for non-restricted housing would also be ever so slightly smaller and those seeking to rent in the non-restricted market would be spared competition form professionally-educated Irish speakers.

And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

This has nothing at all to do with housing law. The restriction would be part of a private lease agreement, not law. A private lease can have any restrictions it wants as long as those restrictions are not in breach of equality legislation and there is nothing in equality legislation about linguistic criteria. Any business can require that their staff must speak English and any landlord can require that their tenants must speak Irish.

So there you go, your concerns on the impact on the housing market and the fear that housing law would need to be changed have been shown to be baseless.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.

"Glorious Irish Nationalism". I see that I have been taken in by a troll.

Suffice it to say that Gaelscoils are not raceist and do not represent any kind of "white-flight". A good friend of mine, a black woman raised in Dublin is a fluent Irish speaker and was educated in a Gaelscoil in a working class area of Dublin, and she is far from the only one. Atempts to paint the Irish language as elitist or raceist is nothing more than a pack of lies spouted by the kind of people who twenty years ago were labeling Irish as the language of backwards peasants. Clearly it is not their supposed concerns but the language itself that pains the heart of this troll.

Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.

Neither do your patrionising lies about the Irish language.

Robbo

One has to admire the Galway Daily blogs total commitment to a multi-lingual Galway. Rather than write in boring old Hiberno-English, they've created their own form of semi-literate US-English argot complete with deeply unfortunate formulations such as "to see a professional Irish-speaking class in Galway City" rather than "to see an Irish speaking professional class in Galway City". Or perhaps the intention is to unfairly paint Gaeilgeoirs as some kind of subsidy junkies?

Whoever's floating the idea if the Irish speaking apartment blocks clearly hasn't been legally advised on the matter so it's best treated as a kite flying exercise to try and pursue some other kind of development.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What is ironic about an African kid being able to speak Irish? There are plenty of non-nationals who speak Irish fluently. Foreigners often have a better opinion of the language than Irish people themselves. The new language planning officer in the South Kerry Gaeltacht is a Russian, for example. I am currently reading a book written in Irish by a Dutch guy who lives in Brazil. Welcome to the 21st century, Irish is not the exclusive domain of Aran Sweater wearing white guys who can trace their family tree back a thousand years on the Blaskets.

If excluding foreigners is your goal, using Irish to achieve it is a piss poor strategy.

What’s a “better opinion”?

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

.

This is a new level of absolute nonsense, even for boards.

Parents who send their kids to a school which speaks our national language as it’s first language are racist and elitist?

Nothing stopping you leaning Irish if you are so bothered that you won’t be able to access a small housing development in the city.

This is not a new thing either btw, there are plenty of rules around getting planning permission for example. You simply won’t get it in a Gaeltacht if you can’t speak irish or you wont get it in other areas if you don’t have ties to the area. Come out to my area and try to get planning and you haven’t a hope whereas it’s very easy for me. That’s no different to what’s proposed here so I see no hurdle in it being implemented.

Imreoir2

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What’s a “better opinion”?

I don't spend my time pondering how to be successfully raceist in Ireland. I can only say that hoping that something which was never created to be raceist in the first place, is not run with any intention of delivering raceist outcomes and is open to the full participation of all races, will somehow deliver a raceist outcome if that is what you desire probably is not going to work out for you.

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

Then you are uneducated. Speaking Irish is a skill and a very employable one at that. There are more people working in jobs that require Irish in Ireland than in any other language except English. Speaking Irish is an economic advantage.

I am also told that telling uneducated raceist who shout "go back to your own country" to go f**k themselves in the national Language is a great feeling.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't spend my time pondering how to be successfully raceist in Ireland. I can only say that hoping that something which was never created to be raceist in the first place, is not run with any intention of delivering raceist outcomes and is open to the full participation of all races, will somehow deliver a raceist outcome if that is what you desire probably is not going to work out for you.



Then you are uneducated. Speaking Irish is a skill and a very employable one at that. There are more people working in jobs that require Irish in Ireland than in any other language except English. Speaking Irish is an economic advantage.

I am also told that telling uneducated raceist who shout "go back to your own country" to go f**k themselves in the national Language is a great feeling.

Excuse me?

Robbo

Imreoir2 wrote: »

This has nothing at all to do with housing law. The restriction would be part of a private lease agreement, not law. A private lease can have any restrictions it wants as long as those restrictions are not in breach of equality legislation and there is nothing in equality legislation about linguistic criteria. Any business can require that their staff must speak English and any landlord can require that their tenants must speak Irish.

So there you go, your concerns on the impact on the housing market and the fear that housing law would need to be changed have been shown to be baseless.

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:

It is anticipated that rental payments can increase with salary while “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

Robbo

Robbo wrote: »

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:
What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

Planning laws demonstrate that these types of language rules or other rules that exclude people from applying can be legally introduced and enforced.

Robbo

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

This is not a new thing either btw, there are plenty of rules around getting planning permission for example. You simply won’t get it in a Gaeltacht if you can’t speak irish or you wont get it in other areas if you don’t have ties to the area. Come out to my area and try to get planning and you haven’t a hope whereas it’s very easy for me. That’s no different to what’s proposed here so I see no hurdle in it being implemented.

Local needs planning is problematic from an EU Law perspective since Libert in 2013.

Robbo

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

Planning laws demonstrate that these types of language rules or other rules that exclude people from applying can be legally introduced and enforced.

As it appears out replies have crossed, I'll refer you to my post on Libert.

Robbo

Robbo wrote: »

Local needs planning is problematic from an EU Law perspective since Libert in 2013.

5 years later it’s still fully active though. I’m currently putting together a planning application in county Galway so can confirm it’s still an absolute deal breaker not meeting the local needs rules.

Go around Europe and you will find plenty of rules and regulations which are not dissimilar to local needs or having language rules.

I like the idea - creating a critical mass where the language is active on the street rather than having to seek it out.
Being near Domnick Street probably helps for socialising.

Could a planning condition superceed the residential tenancies act? I.e. if the building is only allowed on condition it is occupied by certain groups (Irish speakers, students, elderly, disabled or whatever)

xckjoo

xckjoo wrote: »

the Bish land is the only thing they don't currently own in the plan and they've been begging the university to let them move to Dangan since at least the 90's. I don't think it's ring road dependant but could be wrong.

Without the Bish land they have no access to the distillery which is a huge part of the land they own there. Thats one of the major reasons that they want the Bish land so they have access to their property, the main Bish school itself isn't the most important thing its the access they can get on the left hand side.

Without the Bish, the only accessible property that NUIG own is the Engineering building, the small education building and the building beside Altenach house.

Its been previously reported that the move is waiting on the ring road (https://connachttribune.ie/plans-still-in-pipeline-for-bish-move-to-dangan-101/)

Imreoir2

Robbo wrote: »

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:
What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

Who said anything about contracting out of the provisions of the law? I was specifically talking about having a linguistic criteria restricting access to the scheme. There is nothing in the residential tenancies act, as far as I can see that prevents a landlord restricting applicants to Irish speakers only, or young professionals only. The only grounds that a landlord could not use to restrict applications are those provided for in law, such as race, gender, member of the travelling community etc. Plenty of Universities already run Irish language housing schemes on campus and as such I an very confident that restricting such a scheme in the manner proposed is not in breach of any law.

Ending the tenancy is a different matter. I don't know the details of the proposed scheme, it seems intended to give tech grads an oppertunity to set up in the city with initially reduced rents which are increased as their income improves. I am not sure what the performance criteria referenced would be, though it seems to be income from the context. If the lease stipulates the agreed rent, but for example that there is a discount on rent for an initial period and that the full market rent must be paid after that initial period, I don't think that breaches the law. If the tenant is unable to pay their rent after the initial discount goes away, then that is grounds for ending the tenancy if I am not mistaken.

Lets say that there are other criteria (and I don't know what they might be), if the tenant was given up to six years to comply with those criteria and as such the scheme was a six year scheme, then under a fixed term lease the tenant would only be entitled to stay in the property for six years. As such, whatever the performance critera are could be reviewed shortly before the end of the life of the scheme and if the tenant were found to be in breach of those criteria then a notice of termination could be issued to the tenant, they would leave once the six year lease under the scheme was up and the lease would not be renewed.

BarryD2

If the idea can stand on it's own feet, it sounds fine. But if it turns out to be just another language initiative that has to be propped up by State intervention & finance and wouldn't survive otherwise, then I'd say no.

Imreoir2

BarryD2 wrote: »

If the idea can stand on it's own feet, it sounds fine. But if it turns out to be just another language initiative that has to be propped up by State intervention & finance and wouldn't survive otherwise, then I'd say no.

How about NUIG, should it also be expected to stand on its own feet without constant state intervention and finance?

Smegging hell

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What’s a “better opinion”?

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

Because they have a passion for Irish culture, because they enjoy the challenge of learning a language, because they want to converse with Irish-speaking friends or partners in their own language? There are a myriad of reasons one can have for learning a language. I know quite a few people from Poland, the Basque Country, etc, who have very strong Irish.

biko

DaCor and Mrs OBumble banned from tread for trying to derail it

BarryD2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How about NUIG, should it also be expected to stand on its own feet without constant state intervention and finance?

There are too many artificial props for our old native language and that is a false premise on which it stands. Take those away, let it prosper like a wild weed if people are committed to it. That'll make it stronger.

xckjoo

Deleted User wrote: »

Without the Bish land they have no access to the distillery which is a huge part of the land they own there. Thats one of the major reasons that they want the Bish land so they have access to their property, the main Bish school itself isn't the most important thing its the access they can get on the left hand side.

Without the Bish, the only accessible property that NUIG own is the Engineering building, the small education building and the building beside Altenach house.

Its been previously reported that the move is waiting on the ring road (https://connachttribune.ie/plans-still-in-pipeline-for-bish-move-to-dangan-101/)

Still not sure if we're on the same page with what we're talking about. AFAIK NUIG have access to all the buildings they own on Nuns Island. The Bish would be a handy add-on but they're be doing stuff with our without it. I've outlined what I know they currently own in the image below. Mods if this isn't allowed for some reason just let me know
https://imgur.com/NJetaXR (embedding image not working for some reason)
(fixed outline in image)

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

Its been previously reported that the move is waiting on the ring road (https://connachttribune.ie/plans-still-in-pipeline-for-bish-move-to-dangan-101/)

"
Plans had been put on hold while the route of the N6 Galway City Ring Road (commonly referred to as the ‘outer bypass’) was still under consideration.

But now that plans for that project have been finalised, the way has been cleared to progress with the school’s move.
"
I guess this is the reason NUIG are proceeding with the Nuns Island Masterplan?

what_traffic

xckjoo wrote: »

I've outlined what I know they currently own in the image below. Mods if this isn't allowed for some reason just let me know
https://imgur.com/myd1HPw (embedding image not working for some reason)

City Council Car Park at Cathedral part of the Masterplan area as well?

xckjoo

what_traffic wrote: »

City Council Car Park at Cathedral part of the Masterplan area as well?

I think I heard it was actually, but not sure. Did my best to not include any of it with my MS Paint sketch . Pretty certain they own that building on the canal side of the car park though. The one that backs onto the canal and faces onto the carpark

Imreoir2

BarryD2 wrote: »

There are too many artificial props for our old native language and that is a false premise on which it stands. Take those away, let it prosper like a wild weed if people are committed to it. That'll make it stronger.

Could we not say the same thing about education in general? Education has many and varied artificial props, should we not take all of those away? People are surely committed enough to the education of their children that it will prosper and become stronger without the artificial props? Do you agree?

Irish Praetorian

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Could we not say the same thing about education in general? Education has many and varied artificial props, should we not take all of those away? People are surely committed enough to the education of their children that it will prosper and become stronger without the artificial props? Do you agree?

To be fair, and this may simply be a product of the amount of radio ads I'm hearing over the past few weeks, I think the fairly robust presence of private schooling institutions crowing for students is a fair indication of the kind of demand there is for education. I'm struggling to recall any such instance where I saw the same kind of market demand for analogous Irish language services outside of the aforementioned state sector. The closest I can think of is the Irish language summer-schools out in Connemara but again, I think that might be a reflection of the place of Irish on the national curriculum more-so than a genuine aspiration for linguistic learning.



To return more closely to the topic at hand, I was actually interested to learn that in the past the government had undertaken several attempts 'transplant groups of Irish language speakers into places like Leinster where it's almost non-existent as a lingua franca. The results were fairly disappointing but it leads me to wonder how this particular project might be undertaken. Would we be for example, trying to colonize the area with a group of people who already speak Irish? Would we be accepting people with limited Irish and (in the style of Japan) insisting they get better and more fluent over time? Would it be more closely tied to the university and restricted to Irish speaking staff employed there?

topcat77

Do Gaeltacht areas work?

I know several people who live in a Gaeltacht,they passed the relative process in the area to allow them to buy, but they have no interest in the language and never use it.

xckjoo

topcat77 wrote: »

Do Gaeltacht areas work?

I know several people who live in a Gaeltacht,they passed the relative process in the area to allow them to buy, but they have no interest in the language and never use it.

Anecdotal, but anyone I know that grew up in a Gaeltach has fluent Irish and is a proponent of it.