Can a landlord refuse the HAP scheme?

lolalola

Quick question, and I don't know how complicated the answer is : Can a private landlord refuse a tenant who wants to apply for HAP?

jimwallace197

lolalola wrote: »

Quick question, and I don't know how complicated the answer is : Can a private landlord refuse a tenant who wants to apply for HAP?

Technically or publicly no but yes, there ways which they can

lolalola

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Technically or publicly no but yes, there ways which they can

Could you give me some examples? Thanks

C3PO

Legally no but many just won’t accept HAP tenants!

Limpy

lolalola wrote: »

Could you give me some examples? Thanks

They can't email you or txt you to refuse your interest in the house/apartment based on you applying for hap. But they can say other people are looking at the house and they will let you know if your successfull Aka don't call us we'll call you.

TheShow

Its up to the landlord to choose who they want to rent their property to, while legislation also states that a landlord cant discriminate against someone on the HAP scheme.

In such a strong rental market with multitudes of prospective tenants for a property I'm not sure how you could prove that a HAP recipient has been discriminated against; unless you were accepted for a property, advised them of HAP and they they reneged on you for that reason alone.

Graces7

I had one literally refuse on that ground, in writing, saying that "It does not suit my husband and I. "

Limpy

TheShow wrote: »

Its up to the landlord to choose who they want to rent their property to, while legislation also states that a landlord cant discriminate against someone on the HAP scheme.

In such a strong rental market with multitudes of prospective tenants for a property I'm not sure how you could prove that a HAP recipient has been discriminated against; unless you were accepted for a property, advised them of HAP and they they reneged on you for that reason alone.

Devils advocate... What if a tenant views a letting and says they will rent it, pays deposit and signs an agreement, then says from next month we will be using HAP?

The Specialist

Limpy wrote: »

Devils advocate... What if a tenant views a letting and says they will rent it, pays deposit and signs an agreement, then says from next month we will be using HAP?

That would be a breach of contract and the landlord would be well within rights to terminate. You agreed to pay the rental price and signed for it, you can't turn around 1 month in and say you are going to HAP.

lolalola

TheShow wrote: »

Its up to the landlord to choose who they want to rent their property to, while legislation also states that a landlord cant discriminate against someone on the HAP scheme.

In such a strong rental market with multitudes of prospective tenants for a property I'm not sure how you could prove that a HAP recipient has been discriminated against; unless you were accepted for a property, advised them of HAP and they they reneged on you for that reason alone.

That's what's happened. So is that illegal?

TheShow

lolalola wrote: »

That's what's happened. So is that illegal?

You would have to take it to RTB to get proper advice on it. All you will get here is peoples opinions.

nw5iytvs0lf1uz

a clever landlord who is looking for new tenants will use solicitors to handle the whole affair .
So an interested party will receive an email containing an application form to be filled in and returned to solicitors with copies of ID.
On this application will be contact details for current landlords reference and reasons for leaving.
Job done.

dennyk

The Specialist wrote: »

That would be a breach of contract and the landlord would be well within rights to terminate. You agreed to pay the rental price and signed for it, you can't turn around 1 month in and say you are going to HAP.

How is that a breach of contract? As long as the tenant pays the appropriate top-up to reach the full rent amount each month if HAP doesn't fully cover it and advances the necessary amount of additional rent to "catch up" to the HAP rent being paid in arrears if their rent is to be paid in advance, then the tenant will not be in arrears on their rent and the landlord can't give them notice for that reason.

The Specialist

dennyk wrote: »

How is that a breach of contract? As long as the tenant pays the appropriate top-up to reach the full rent amount each month if HAP doesn't fully cover it and advances the necessary amount of additional rent to "catch up" to the HAP rent being paid in arrears if their rent is to be paid in advance, then the tenant will not be in arrears on their rent and the landlord can't give them notice for that reason.

Your initial agreement is that you will pay the full rent amount due - you cannot expect to turn around to the landlord 1 month after signing that and say sorry, but 50% will now be paid through the HAP scheme instead.

FishOnABike

Provided you can continue to pay your rent in full as it falls due they have no reason to terminate your tenancy.

Having said that, unless you have signed a fixed term tenancy of more than six months they don't need any reason to terminate your tenancy before you have part four rights.

Similarly if you missed paying your rent in full as it fell due while you were waiting for a HAP application to be processed they would be entitled to issue a 14 day notice of arrears and follow up with 28 day notice of termination if the arrears were not paid within the 14 days.

While in theory it is illegal to discriminate based on your HAP status in practice the protection afforded by the law is limited in its effectiveness.

jimwallace197

Prince Early Voltage wrote: »

a clever landlord who is looking for new tenants will use solicitors to handle the whole affair .
So an interested party will receive an email containing an application form to be filled in and returned to solicitors with copies of ID.
On this application will be contact details for current landlords reference and reasons for leaving.
Job done.

Yes, a clever landlord would use a solicitor which would probably end up costing him a lot more than if he did it himself or used an agent:rolleyes:

Also, landlord references and reasons for leaving can be easily fabricated and manipulated so not so smart

dennyk

The Specialist wrote: »

Your initial agreement is that you will pay the full rent amount due - you cannot expect to turn around to the landlord 1 month after signing that and say sorry, but 50% will now be paid through the HAP scheme instead.

Your agreement is that the full rent amount due will be paid. I've never seen a lease that actually specifies whose bank account the rent payment must come from, and such an agreement would be illegal on its face if it had the effect of excluding HAP tenants in any case. If your reliance on HAP results in your rent not being paid as agreed, then yes, you have breached your lease agreement in that case and the landlord could give a 14-day notice to correct and then a 28-day notice to terminate, but as long as the landlord has been paid the full amount of rent due on or before the rent due date each month, it makes no difference whether it's the tenant or the council or some random stranger off the street who's actually made the payment.

antix80

Am I correct in saying houses can legally be rented out that don't meet HAP standards? If that's the case, how can the landlord accept HAP? By bringing the house to HAP standards the rent may have to be increased, and may exceed HAP thresholds.

Another issue I envisage with HAP is if the lease states payment much be made in advance. To me, terms of payment is a material part of the contract. Surely a finance charge would be appropriate for accounts in arrears due to late or non-payment.

Dav010

• Landlord requires first month, last month and equivalent to one months rent as deposit on date of lease signing.

• if house does not comply with council standards.

• References.

• Proof of funds at application stage.

• Word of mouth ( nothing written) from previous landlord and/or estate agent at application stage. The tenant may not inform the LL about HAP, but they will know so no concern about discrimination.

dennyk

antix80 wrote: »

Am I correct in saying houses can legally be rented out that don't meet HAP standards? If that's the case, how can the landlord accept HAP? By bringing the house to HAP standards the rent may have to be increased, and may exceed HAP thresholds.

No, there's no such thing as "HAP standards"; the standards a HAP property must meet are the same as the required standards for every rental property, which are determined by the local council in each area. The only difference is that an inspection is generally required for properties with HAP tenants, while most other private rental properties are rarely or never inspected under the current system (though I think there's some talk of changing that in the future and strongly encouraging the councils to carry out inspections on all rental properties at least once every four or five years). If work is required to bring the property up to standard, that would not allow the landlord to increase the rent outside of the normal rent review regulations, nor would it qualify as a major renovation for the purpose of RPZ legislation (as work to bring the property to minimum standards never qualifies regardless of the significance).

antix80 wrote: »

Another issue I envisage with HAP is if the lease states payment much be made in advance. To me, terms of payment is a material part of the contract. Surely a finance charge would be appropriate for accounts in arrears due to late or non-payment.

Yes, that is a potential issue with the HAP scheme (and one that really ought to be addressed on the HAP end, I think). Most lease agreements require rent to be paid in advance on a fixed date each month, but HAP pays rent in arrears on a fluctuating date (the last Wednesday of the month, I believe). It's an inherent incompatibility in the system, and technically a landlord who doesn't want to accept HAP could choose to take a hard line on it and issue notice for arrears if the rent isn't paid on time due to the way the HAP payments are scheduled. However, a tenant could avoid that by paying enough rent in advance that it would make up the difference; e.g. if their rent in advance is due on the first of the month, then in the month before they switch to HAP, they could pay an additional month's rent up front to cover that next month, then the HAP payment plus their top-up would go towards the next month's advance rent payment and they would not be in arrears. Of course, the problem is that if a tenant is in need of HAP, they may not have the funds available to make such a "catch-up" payment, so most would be reliant on the kindness of the landlord to agree to an adjustment of the rent payment terms to be compatible with HAP without issuing them a notice for rent arrears during the adjustment period.

Del2005

dennyk wrote: »

No, there's no such thing as "HAP standards"; the standards a HAP property must meet are the same as the required standards for every rental property, which are determined by the local council in each area. The only difference is that an inspection is generally required for properties with HAP tenants, while most other private rental properties are rarely or never inspected under the current system (though I think there's some talk of changing that in the future and strongly encouraging the councils to carry out inspections on all rental properties at least once every four or five years). If work is required to bring the property up to standard, that would not allow the landlord to increase the rent outside of the normal rent review regulations, nor would it qualify as a major renovation for the purpose of RPZ legislation (as work to bring the property to minimum standards never qualifies regardless of the significance).

A property only has to meet the standards of the time it was built to be rented privately or bought. For HAP they want the property to meet current standards, which for some properties is impossible. So HAP are applying higher standards.

dennyk wrote: »

Yes, that is a potential issue with the HAP scheme (and one that really ought to be addressed on the HAP end, I think). Most lease agreements require rent to be paid in advance on a fixed date each month, but HAP pays rent in arrears on a fluctuating date (the last Wednesday of the month, I believe). It's an inherent incompatibility in the system, and technically a landlord who doesn't want to accept HAP could choose to take a hard line on it and issue notice for arrears if the rent isn't paid on time due to the way the HAP payments are scheduled. However, a tenant could avoid that by paying enough rent in advance that it would make up the difference; e.g. if their rent in advance is due on the first of the month, then in the month before they switch to HAP, they could pay an additional month's rent up front to cover that next month, then the HAP payment plus their top-up would go towards the next month's advance rent payment and they would not be in arrears. Of course, the problem is that if a tenant is in need of HAP, they may not have the funds available to make such a "catch-up" payment, so most would be reliant on the kindness of the landlord to agree to an adjustment of the rent payment terms to be compatible with HAP without issuing them a notice for rent arrears during the adjustment period.

If the person can pay 2 months rent in 1 month then they shouldn't be on HAP and should be paying their own rent.

crossmolinalad

Limpy wrote: »

Devils advocate... What if a tenant views a letting and says they will rent it, pays deposit and signs an agreement, then says from next month we will be using HAP?

had that myself
Landlord told me its not a problem but I want the rent on time on my bank account ,its in the contract you have signed
what you are doing with Hap or rent allowance okay I will sign but want from you every first day of the month the rent without delay

chicorytip

I think the majority of lettings are handled by estate agents who carry out vetting of potential tenants for their clients. Hiring a firm of solicitors to do so is not something I have ever seen or heard of. Perhaps you meant to say estate agents or auctioneer’s in your post. Anyway, this method will favour those in full time employment who can afford to pay rather than those in receipt of housing assistance. Landlords who do not discriminate against HAP tenants tend to be those who handle all aspects of the letting themselves.

chicorytip

antix80 wrote:

Am I correct in saying houses can legally be rented out that don't meet HAP standards? If that's the case, how can the landlord accept HAP? By bringing the house to HAP standards the rent may have to be increased, and may exceed HAP thresholds.

The local authority will inspect only a fraction of the number of such properties to ensure that they comply with these standards. The rate is well below ten percent in all areas so landlords know there is only a small chance of their property ever being inspected.

nw5iytvs0lf1uz

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Yes, a clever landlord would use a solicitor which would probably end up costing him a lot more than if he did it himself or used an agent:rolleyes:

Also, landlord references and reasons for leaving can be easily fabricated and manipulated so not so smart

the solicitor prepares the agreement, nothing more.
but the landlord can use the solicitor as a buffer from rogue tenants.


landlord references that are fabricated are easily spotted by legal means through the solicitor.

the_syco

antix80 wrote: »

Am I correct in saying houses can legally be rented out that don't meet HAP standards? If that's the case, how can the landlord accept HAP? By bringing the house to HAP standards the rent may have to be increased, and may exceed HAP thresholds.

I'm pretty sure a LL was fined for not bringing their house up to HAP standard, after the house got inspected, or they didn't get their tax cert.

dennyk wrote: »

though I think there's some talk of changing that in the future and strongly encouraging the councils to carry out inspections on all rental properties at least once every four or five years

If this gets brought in, it'll be interesting to see how quickly rental properties disappear.

dennyk wrote: »

Most lease agreements require rent to be paid in advance on a fixed date each month, but HAP pays rent in arrears on a fluctuating date (the last Wednesday of the month, I believe).

If the LL agrees to HAP, do they thus agree to payment by arrears, or can they issue the 14 day warning?

chicorytip wrote: »

I think the majority of lettings are handled by estate agents who carry out vetting of potential tenants for their clients.

When you consider that Homeless executive defends €500 ‘placement fees’ to estate agents, EA's may take the 500, take your money, and if sh|t hits the fan, they can walk away.

sk8board

LL here. I have a very good sitting tenant who is moving to HAP. I can’t legally refuse it - but jeez it has been such a saga ...

Problem 1: the tenants start date was May 1st.
We filled in all the forms and were stamped as received on April 10th. To date I’ve received zero rent, albeit we appear to have white smoke and I expect 3 months of rent (May, Jun, Jul) next Wednesday 31st
Problem 2: the list of LL requirements is too comprehensive. A Landlord who has successfully applied to the HAP scheme has the cleanest nose in the country! Proof of EVERYTHING is required - ownership, LPT, bank a/c ownership, tax clearance and a bunch of other Proofs, about 7-9 in total.

Problem 3: I was apprehensive at first about HAP and read the documentation cover to cover. It doesn’t describe the actual process, but only the result (the council pay you the rent, and they do it in arrears. End of story). In reality they need to call the LL FIRST, even before getting the tenant approved, to confirm start dates, previous rent level, new rent amount, deposit etc etc - but this is taking up to 8 weeks to happen. Most tenant change overs start within days of a viewing, so you are left calling the council front desk trying desperately to find out what’s going on, as your start date comes and goes. At this stage the tenant has stopped paying the rent and we are both putting our trust in a system that may or not happen in the near future. Communication with the LL was truly awful, but when I did get to speak to someone, at least they could confirm I was ‘in the queue’ and what the next step ACTUALLY WAS. The leaflets are a joke.

Problem 4: they pay the rent in arrears, not in advance as every private tenant does normally.
This means that for the first month you are waiting for an extra month to get the rent in, to pay mortgages and outgoings. Trying calling the bank to move your mortgage date by 1 month

So as I stand, I await my first HAP payment, 3.5 months since we applied on April 10th.

Thankfully the tenant family is absolutely a great one I’ve had for years and I’m happy to oblige them. I won’t be doing it again soon for any new tenant.

I would love to find a way to give feedback to Gov policy on some basic things they could improve to make the process more palatable to LLs.

I don’t believe my situation is an exception, it is taking 2 months for dublin councils to approve payments. In my case we missed the June payroll by a few days and had to wait a further month.
They can’t/won’t run any supplementary payments for new applications.

Bigus

Perhaps the landlord could legally get off the hook by saying that they “the landlord “ doesn’t qualify for hap , as they don’t have a current tax clearance certificate, nothing illegal about that once their taxes are in order.

The Student

the_syco wrote: »

I'm pretty sure a LL was fined for not bringing their house up to HAP standard, after the house got inspected, or they didn't get their tax cert.

What happens if a landlord does not bring the property up to standard and then decides not to rent out the property.

What happens then, can the landlord issue a notice of termination as the HAP will not pay as the property does not meet standards?

10pennymixup

dennyk wrote: »

No, there's no such thing as "HAP standards"; the standards a HAP property must meet are the same as the required standards for every rental property, which are determined by the local council in each area. The only difference is that an inspection is generally required for properties with HAP tenants, while most other private rental properties are rarely or never inspected under the current system .....................

I have never had to deal with HAP, RA yes. If any of the tales from LL's working with it told on here are to be believed, then there is a substantial difference.

Below is are extracts from quoted posts from a previous thread on the subject by The Conductor (a respected poster on here). Full thread here Landlord fined for refusing HAP

#87 "Perhaps because the accommodation rules are wholly different for a HAP than for any other class of tenant (aka- the building has to meet current building regulations- not the regulations that were in place when the building was built).

A HAP tenant is entitled to live in a building covered by the latest building regulations. This means- if a prospective HAP tenant is renting a property constructed prior to November 2017 (the last change in the regulations)- the building is not HAP compliant- until it is retrofitted to at least match the requirements of the latest regulation............

For everyone else- the regulations in place when the building was constructed- apply."

#89 "a colleague has a 24k bill in Co. Meath to bring a property built in 2002 up to HAP spec just yesterday"

And when asked what the 24k spent to bring this 2002 house up to HAP standards

#93 "

• Complete rewiring
• Replumbing the kitchen appliances
• Ventilation in all the bedrooms
• Window in the en-suite bathroom
• Removal of some plasterboard walls and resizing of rooms- to make the property wheelchair compliant (which is nuts- the prospective tenant is in their prime and 100% definitely not in a wheelchair)
• A ramp to the door (once again- not sure how/why)
• Repainting the entire property as the colour scheme is non-compliant (it was magnolia and white- which seems pretty standard to me- I honestly have no idea what the reasoning is with this either........

"

Jasper79

Bigus wrote: »

Perhaps the landlord could legally get off the hook by saying that they “the landlord “ doesn’t qualify for hap , as they don’t have a current tax clearance certificate, nothing illegal about that once their taxes are in order.

Or that rent is payable in advance . If hap won't do that then tough .