RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

greenttc

surely for the amount of money that tusla are getting every early years service in the country should get at least one inspection a year? I just looked up my childs creche and they were last inspected in 2017. now I have no concerns whatsoever about my childs care, he is in there four hours a day and talks about how much he loves school constantly as well as telling me about the activites he got up to every day. the report in 2017 had very minor recommendations which were all implemented or resolved quickly (and were noted in the report).

I know that there have been changes in the creche since the report though, they are positive changes like new sensory facilities and out door areas but as there are good changes there is the potential for bad practice to creep in too so why are the inspections not more frequent?

that documentary was so upsetting, I have become so much more sensitive to reading about and seeing cases of children being mistreated so I found it very very hard to watch but any human being can see that it isnt right to hold a child down and push their heads into a mattress repeatedly, it isnt right to do it to any human and these are some of the most vulnerable humans in society. how did that woman have it in her to do that to all those children.

LirW

markodaly wrote: »

Sums it up to be honest.

We go mad when we see something on the TV like we did last night, look for people to scapegoat and to blame, but really like most problems in Ireland its with the electorate and society in general.

Let's be honest, does anyone really think we should throw more money at Tusla? What are they doing with the annual €750 million at the moment?

Private operators step in because they have to. There is no state organised care for the 0-5 group. There probably should be.
The people working in these places are paid and treated like crap. People with degrees earning barely above minimum wage?
Yet, we give child allowance to everyone.

Will parents forgo their child allowance to invest in professional childcare services? Lots of hard questions to be asked and answered.

I think a lot gets lost on the way to be honest. Because there is no state-run care system for under 5s there are private operators and they set the price. The price is absolutely bloody ridiculous to be honest but if I'm paying 1200 Euros a month I feel like I better be getting some top service for that money because it is a lot. I'm talking a second mortgage payment.
In reality there are a few young girls with the absolute minimum qualification requirement working in the rooms (bless them, most of them are so lovely) earning the bare minimum. "Upskilling" doesn't make it more lucrative for the workers, instead of 9,80 you earn 11 Euros now, maybe even 12 or 13 if you have a relevant degree (!) in it.
So while the working family pays top prices for early childhood care and expect top care - rightly so - there is no incentive for the staff to deliver top care because they're quite a bit away from making a living wage. Most do so anyway and they should be applauded for.
You can't blame the parents because they already pay more than enough, it's better to examine where the rest of the money goes.
I know a huge factor is rent, bills and insurance and you want a profit too at the end of the day. It's shameful that the government basically outsourced such an essential service, leaves the businesses to themselves to sort out their costs and pat themselves on the shoulders for being so generous to offer the ECCE scheme with their absolutely stupid age cut off point.

The Princess Bride

tigger123 wrote: »

But there are fantastic childcare facilities and childcare workers out there. People with no experience of the sector shouldn't assume that this is the norm.

But where are the fantastic childcare facilities and how do you know this isn't more widespread?
Genuine question.

If the parents of the children attending those 4 "Hide & Seek" creches, had been asked last month, wouldn't they have recommended the facilities?
Wouldn't they have praised the employees, saying that they get a daily written account of their child's interactions?
That there's a healthy nutritional menu on offer etc...
That they're relieved their child has a place in a creche because childcare is so expensive?

Seriously, what scares me is the amount of employees who take their monthly pay, knowing that the children are being held down, fed crap, crammed into tiny spaces etc...and tolerate it.
I would report-and have done- a colleague who wasn't working within expected guidelines.

I hope that vile woman serves time for her behaviour.
And I hope that none of the children suffer from consequences of her/the employees' actions.

GreeBo

Boggles wrote: »

Some of them have a thing called a window it was invented a while back.

Many of those windows have a thing called blinds, but keep digging.

Boggles wrote: »

Parents are unvetted, what are you struggling with?

Why on earth would a parent need to be vetted to see their own child?
What part of that makes any sense to you?

Gatling

GreeBo wrote: »

A parent/guardian of a child is *not* some unvetted person and you should absolutely be able to go and see/collect your child at any time.

Actually no you shouldn't ,

A parent is not employed by the setting so Vetting had nothing to do with it .
It's more to so with it can cause stress for the child especially if the child thinks mammy or daddy will be wandering in and out willy nilly ,
It causes stress and or upsets other kids who they many be expecting mammy and daddy to be there also ,
It can cause staff to worry about being watched or questioned by a parent /s while trying to do their job as child careers.
Parents are only happily to tell the world how they seen one child not theirs do this and do that In a setting.

These are just a few of the reasons settings want the child brought to the door and handed over then say goodbye and let them get on with their job.
If you had concerns you would need to talk to the service manager as to why you particularly wanted to hover around your child's setting

Boggles

GreeBo wrote: »

Why on earth would a parent need to be vetted to see their own child?
What part of that makes any sense to you?

I'll give you 5 minutes to think about that one.

Hannibal_Smith

The Princess Bride wrote: »

But where are the fantastic childcare facilities and how do you know this isn't more widespread?
Genuine question.

If the parents of the children attending those 4 "Hide & Seek" creches, had been asked last month, wouldn't they have recommended the facilities?
Wouldn't they have praised the employees, saying that they get a daily written account of their child's interactions?
That there's a healthy nutritional menu on offer etc...
That they're relieved their child has a place in a creche because childcare is so expensive?

Seriously, what scares me is the amount of employees who take their monthly pay, knowing that the children are being held down, fed crap, crammed into tiny spaces etc...and tolerate it.
I would report-and have done- a colleague who wasn't working within expected guidelines.

I hope that vile woman serves time for her behaviour.
And I hope that none of the children suffer from consequences of her/the employees' actions.

One guy on the radio this morning sent his daughter into the H&S branch in Glasnevin this morning. Says nothing like what went on at Tolka Road went on in his kid's creche and she's happy there so he's happy enough sending her back in to it this morning. Not the approach I would have taken myself I must say.

One eyed Jack

Plopsu wrote: »

You really just don't live on the same planet as the rest of us, do you. Many people struggle to make ends meet. It's nothing to do with living outside their means (unless you consider eating and having a home to be living outside your means). A second income adds money into the pool even after creche fees. Without that money, they would not be able to manage. It's nothing to do with not taking responsibility for their children's welfare and rearing, which to be blunt is a stupid thing to say.

And on this planet that you live on, does everyone else think the same way you do? If so then you’re absolutely right, I don’t live on the same planet as the rest of you. I live in a country where we have an atrocious history of child welfare and we still do. It has everything to do with people living outside their means because there is no other way for some people to live the lifestyles they do without living well beyond their means. It’s everything to do with taking responsibility for their children’s welfare because ultimately it is parents who are responsible for their children’s welfare, and to suggest otherwise is what is patently stupid IMO.

That’s how we excused children being treated like shìte in the past - “people didn’t know any better”, “people had no choice”, etc. Yet here, when it’s blatantly shown that children are being mistreated, still we have people looking to suggest the crèches are responsible, the State is responsible, Tulsa is responsible, the HSE are responsible. Anyone else is responsible as long as the people who are ultimately responsible, aren’t responsible. That’s wrong.

FWIW btw I have seen the standards in both community crèches and in privately run crèches and to be honest with you I found it hard to tell the difference between them. The only difference really is the price they charge, or the amount patents are asked to contribute. It takes a lot to faze me but in one crèche they had a thing where parents would be expected to volunteer to come in once a week and help out. Another crèche had an unfinished electrical socket with the wires hanging out from the wall. Another crèche served bread and butter instead of the nutrition they were purporting to be giving to the children.

If you were any way clued in to the same planet I live on, you’d know that these inspection reports are publicly available. You’d also know that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on as they don’t go anywhere near telling the full story. The standards in crèches in Ireland, and this IS a widespread issue, are dire. They are well below international standards. State run crèches and higher taxation has been suggested as a means to address these failures, but those measures will do nothing to address the culture of indifference and “sure we’re doing our best” that is ingrained in childcare and education provision in this country.

These issues were brought to public attention in 2013 already and if you’re employed in the area of childcare or social care or education or quite literally anything to do with child welfare, these stories won’t be news to you, unless you actually do live on a different planet in which case it’s perfectly understandable that this would be all news to you in spite of our atrocious history when it comes to children’s welfare.

These private childcare facilities receive millions in funding from the State already, and they receive thousands more from parents. Throwing more money at them isn’t going to address anything. As someone else suggested already, what’s needed is enforcement of the regulations that are already in place, and regular inspections of these facilities to ensure that they are meeting regulations, and close them down on the spot if they aren’t, rather than allow them to continue to be a risk to children’s health and well being.

Samsgirl

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yes that's fine in theory.

In practice, it takes an age to sort out.

And there are sports clubs up and down the length of the country who say - fine, come on board now and also get your garda vetting sorted.

Because the alternative is to say - yes we need you here now; but you aren't garda vetted - it will take 3 months to organise, and in the meantime we are understaffed.

Standard vetting takes 4 days now as it's done online.
Clearance is the one that takes a long time but that is only needed if the person is going to work in Dept of Justice for example where they would have access to sensitive information.

Plopsu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And on this planet that you live on, does everyone else think the same way you do? If so then you’re absolutely right, I don’t live on the same planet as the rest of you. I live in a country where we have an atrocious history of child welfare and we still do. It has everything to do with people living outside their means because there is no other way for some people to live the lifestyles they do without living well beyond their means. It’s everything to do with taking responsibility for their children’s welfare because ultimately it is parents who are responsible for their children’s welfare, and to suggest otherwise is what is patently stupid IMO.

That’s how we excused children being treated like shìte in the past - “people didn’t know any better”, “people had no choice”, etc. Yet here, when it’s blatantly shown that children are being mistreated, still we have people looking to suggest the crèches are responsible, the State is responsible, Tulsa is responsible, the HSE are responsible. Anyone else is responsible as long as the people who are ultimately responsible, aren’t responsible. That’s wrong.

FWIW btw I have seen the standards in both community crèches and in privately run crèches and to be honest with you I found it hard to tell the difference between them. The only difference really is the price they charge, or the amount patents are asked to contribute. It takes a lot to faze me but in one crèche they had a thing where parents would be expected to volunteer to come in once a week and help out. Another crèche had an unfinished electrical socket with the wires hanging out from the wall. Another crèche served bread and butter instead of the nutrition they were purporting to be giving to the children.

If you were any way clued in to the same planet I live on, you’d know that these inspection reports are publicly available. You’d also know that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on as they don’t go anywhere near telling the full story. The standards in crèches in Ireland, and this IS a widespread issue, are dire. They are well below international standards. State run crèches and higher taxation has been suggested as a means to address these failures, but those measures will do nothing to address the culture of indifference and “sure we’re doing our best” that is ingrained in childcare and education provision in this country.

These issues were brought to public attention in 2013 already and if you’re employed in the area of childcare or social care or education or quite literally anything to do with child welfare, these stories won’t be news to you, unless you actually do live on a different planet in which case it’s perfectly understandable that this would be all news to you in spite of our atrocious history when it comes to children’s welfare.

These private childcare facilities receive millions in funding from the State already, and they receive thousands more from parents. Throwing more money at them isn’t going to address anything. As someone else suggested already, what’s needed is enforcement of the regulations that are already in place, and regular inspections of these facilities to ensure that they are meeting regulations, and close them down on the spot if they aren’t, rather than allow them to continue to be a risk to children’s health and well being.

And perhaps you can point me to where I said anything at all about quality of care in creches. Because most of your post is completely irrelevant to what I was saying. Would you like me to say it again? Or you could just go back and read it for yourself.
You claimed (and appear to be still doing so) that everybody puts their children in creches because they want to live high on the hog. The reality is that many do so because it is the only way they can survive. You don't believe that then you're not only not living on the same planet as the rest of us but must be living in some sort of magical bubble.

Nor did I say that parents aren't ultimately responsible for their kids welfare. I said that your assertion that putting them into a creche so both parents can work represents an abdication of that responsibility is stupid. I said that because that assertion is stupid.

tjhook

klaaaz wrote: »

Up the direct income tax, subsidise the childcare(and other Scandi type services) at the same time and the same person will actually have more per month for disposable income as essential services will be subsidised.

I don't think this is realistic given how badly our existing taxes are spent.

People debate whether we're a "high tax" or "low tax" country. But when you exclude the third of the working population that pay no income tax, the rest pay plenty. For the amount of tax taken, the services provided are woeful.

I see no reason to believe that simply throwing more taxes into the bucket would lead to better service provision.

As for better subsidies for childcare, wouldn't the prices simply increase to match? I remember the "first time buyers grant", where exactly that happened.

The government needs to firstly start respecting the money it takes from us all. It needs to show it gives a damn about how it's spent. Acknowledge that it's money that we all worked hard to earn. Spend it as carefully as we would ourselves if it hadn't been taken from us. Only then will I accept that there may be a benefit in increasing taxes.

Noveight

greenttc wrote: »

surely for the amount of money that tusla are getting every early years service in the country should get at least one inspection a year?

Tusla are similar to the HSE. Incapable for the most part.

One eyed Jack

Plopsu wrote: »

And perhaps you can point me to where I said anything at all about quality of care in creches. Because most of your post is completely irrelevant to what I was saying. Would you like me to say it again? Or you could just go back and read it for yourself.
You claimed (and appear to be still doing so) that everybody puts their children in creches because they want to live high on the hog. The reality is that many do so because it is the only way they can survive. You don't believe that then you're not only not living on the same planet as the rest of us but must be living in some sort of magical bubble.

Maybe you could point to where I said everybody? Because I didn’t. I’m aware of some people that do, and I’m aware of some people who say they have no choice, because according to them, like yourself, that is their version of what they consider reality. The actual reality is of course that they do have choices, and they make their choices depending upon what are priorities for them. If they prioritise their employment or having all the nice things in life that they see everyone else having, then there are consequences for those choices - one is getting themselves way in over their heads in debt, and the other is putting their children at risk of being mistreated. That’s not the only way for people to survive and as I’ve already pointed out using figures from the central statistics office which are more objective than your “reality” bubble - there are plenty of people who make different choices.

Nor did I say that parents aren't ultimately responsible for their kids welfare. I said that your assertion that putting them into a creche so both parents can work represents an abdication of that responsibility is stupid. I said that because that assertion is stupid.

Fair enough. Your opinion won’t change the facts though.

iamwhoiam

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And on this planet that you live on, does everyone else think the same way you do? If so then you’re absolutely right, I don’t live on the same planet as the rest of you. I live in a country where we have an atrocious history of child welfare and we still do. It has everything to do with people living outside their means because there is no other way for some people to live the lifestyles they do without living well beyond their means. It’s everything to do with taking responsibility for their children’s welfare because ultimately it is parents who are responsible for their children’s welfare, and to suggest otherwise is what is patently stupid IMO.

That’s how we excused children being treated like shìte in the past - “people didn’t know any better”, “people had no choice”, etc. Yet here, when it’s blatantly shown that children are being mistreated, still we have people looking to suggest the crèches are responsible, the State is responsible, Tulsa is responsible, the HSE are responsible. Anyone else is responsible as long as the people who are ultimately responsible, aren’t responsible. That’s wrong.

FWIW btw I have seen the standards in both community crèches and in privately run crèches and to be honest with you I found it hard to tell the difference between them. The only difference really is the price they charge, or the amount patents are asked to contribute. It takes a lot to faze me but in one crèche they had a thing where parents would be expected to volunteer to come in once a week and help out. Another crèche had an unfinished electrical socket with the wires hanging out from the wall. Another crèche served bread and butter instead of the nutrition they were purporting to be giving to the children.


.

As a matter of interest I am wondering what you were doing in the creches .? For someone so against them and so vociferous about the detrimental effects on the children you seem to have seen lots of creches

Hannibal_Smith

I would love to have volunteered once a week in our kids' creche!

I hope places that were deceiving parents about nutrition and had wires hanging out of sockets were reported?

Plopsu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Maybe you could point to where I said everybody? Because I didn’t. I’m aware of some people that do, and I’m aware of some people who say they have no choice, because according to them, like yourself, that is their version of what they consider reality. The actual reality is of course that they do have choices, and they make their choices depending upon what are priorities for them. If they prioritise their employment or having all the nice things in life that they see everyone else having, then there are consequences for those choices - one is getting themselves way in over their heads in debt, and the other is putting their children at risk of being mistreated. That’s not the only way for people to survive and as I’ve already pointed out using figures from the central statistics office which are more objective than your “reality” bubble - there are plenty of people who make different choices.





Fair enough. Your opinion won’t change the facts though.

Literally the first post of yours that I quoted you said: "No, both parents don’t have to work, they choose to work". Can't wait to hear your furious retconning on how, "what I actaully meant was...." Especially since you spent every reply since contradicting my point that for many it's not a choice.

One eyed Jack

iamwhoiam wrote: »

As a matter of interest I am wondering what you were doing in the creches .? For someone so against them and so vociferous about the detrimental effects on the children you seem to have seen lots of creches

It’s hardly that unusual that a parent would do their due diligence when deciding whether or not to put their child in a crèche, or what crèche they should put their child into? I don’t have any issue with crèches or childcare facilities. I have issues with low standards and failure to meet standards set for the industry.

One eyed Jack

Plopsu wrote: »

Literally the first post of yours that I quoted you said: "No, both parents don’t have to work, they choose to work". Can't wait to hear your furious retconning on how, "what I actaully meant was...." Especially since you spent every reply since contradicting my point that for many it's not a choice.

That’s essentially where I disagree with you. If you said that children have no choice, I’d say fair enough, but to attempt to suggest that parents have no choice? That’s just nonsense.

Hannibal_Smith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s hardly that unusual that a parent would do their due diligence when deciding whether or not to put their child in a crèche, or what crèche they should put their child into? I don’t have any issue with crèches or childcare facilities. I have issues with low standards and failure to meet standards set for the industry.

Did you use a creche?

One eyed Jack

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I would love to have volunteered once a week in our kids' creche!

I hope places that were deceiving parents about nutrition and had wires hanging out of sockets were reported?

I know parents who would love to volunteer at their local crèches, but it presents a risk to children’s health and safety in doing that.

Yes btw, they were reported, and still continue to operate.

iamwhoiam

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s hardly that unusual that a parent would do their due diligence when deciding whether or not to put their child in a crèche, or what crèche they should put their child into? I don’t have any issue with crèches or childcare facilities. I have issues with low standards and failure to meet standards set for the industry.

Did you use a creche or why were you there was my question

One eyed Jack

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Did you use a creche?

No, my wife and I decided it wasn’t worth it when we took everything into account.

One eyed Jack

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Did you use a creche or why were you there was my question

I answered your question? I was there because I was inspecting the place before enrolling my child there. We decided not to, obviously.

Hannibal_Smith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, my wife and I decided it wasn’t worth it when we took everything into account,

Did they tell you at the viewing that they were giving bread and butter to the kids?

Tombo2001

SusieBlue wrote: »

Its ironic that a lot of people here criticising mothers (not fathers though, fathers are fine) for working & using créche facilities are the exact same people on other threads bemoaning and judging those in receipt of social welfare and council houses.
You can't have it every way.

That documentary was heartbreaking, that woman should without a doubt be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But it isn't reflective of the vast majority of créches.

Instead of blaming women & feminism for "abandoning" their children, we should be demanding better quality and better value childcare options. Who on earth would pay the equivalent of a monthly mortgage payment for someone to mind their child, leaving only a few hundred euro left over from their salary, unless they absolutely have to?

Most parents are not emotionless robots who relish at the idea of leaving their child for 40 hours a week.
Anyone I know who does it, does it out of necessity. Not to have the latest iPhone or a two week stint in the Maldives, but to pay their car insurance. Or their electricity bill. Or to contribute towards their astronomical rent costs.

I actually can't believe that the majority are blaming the parents when the issue is with poor levels of inspection, poor implementation of regulations, and very little choices and options for families who have no choice but to have both or single parents working.

A couple of points on this.
(I) Its not a lot of people who are blaming this on feminism; its one person, and there is always 'one'. The same person said mothers are better at looking after kids than fathers - which as a father I would find absolutely laughable.

(II)

what you've said is contradictory:

On the one hand - we shouldn't be blaming the parents?

On the other hand - we should be demanding better childcare facilities. Well if we should be doing that, then this would infer we haven't been doing that - and who is 'we' in this case except for parents?

I just find in Ireland - its always someone else's fault.

Plopsu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s essentially where I disagree with you. If you said that children have no choice, I’d say fair enough, but to attempt to suggest that parents have no choice? That’s just nonsense.

Bwahahahah. So you're now back to saying that all parents put their children in creches despite being able to afford to live on a single income. You do get that that contradicts what you just said. You're tripping over yourself again Jack.


Tell you what, let's just cut straight to it. Do you believe that economic necessity forces some parents to put their children in creches so both parents can work? Not for luxury but just to survive? It's a simple yes/no question.

One eyed Jack

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Did they tell you at the viewing that they were giving bread and butter to the kids?

No they didn’t, in the same way that another crèche didn’t want to draw my attention to the unfinished electrical wiring. I witnessed these things for myself.

One eyed Jack

Plopsu wrote: »

Bwahahahah. So you're now back to saying that all parents put their children in creches despite being able to afford to live on a single income. You do get that that contradicts what you just said. You're tripping over yourself again Jack.

Nah, that’s your attempt to twist what I’ve said.

Tell you what, let's just cut straight to it. Do you believe that economic necessity forces some parents to put their children in creches so both parents can work? Not for luxury but just to survive? It's a simple yes/no question.

How many ways do you think you can phrase that same point and think my answer will change? The answer is still no.

Plopsu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nah, that’s your attempt to twist what I’ve said.





How many ways do you think you can phrase that same point and think my answer will change? The answer is still no.

Soooo... "I’m aware of some people that do" was a complete lie then?

Boggles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No they didn’t, in the same way that another crèche didn’t want to draw my attention to the unfinished electrical wiring. I witnessed these things for myself.

Do explain?