RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

One eyed Jack

Plopsu wrote: »

Soooo... "I’m aware of some people that do" was a complete lie then?

No, it wasn’t a lie. I’ll point you to what I said again -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Maybe you could point to where I said everybody? Because I didn’t. I’m aware of some people that do, and I’m aware of some people who say they have no choice, because according to them, like yourself, that is their version of what they consider reality. The actual reality is of course that they do have choices, and they make their choices depending upon what are priorities for them. If they prioritise their employment or having all the nice things in life that they see everyone else having, then there are consequences for those choices - one is getting themselves way in over their heads in debt, and the other is putting their children at risk of being mistreated. That’s not the only way for people to survive and as I’ve already pointed out using figures from the central statistics office which are more objective than your “reality” bubble - there are plenty of people who make different choices.

Fair enough. Your opinion won’t change the facts though.

Ush1

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s hardly that unusual that a parent would do their due diligence when deciding whether or not to put their child in a crèche, or what crèche they should put their child into? I don’t have any issue with crèches or childcare facilities. I have issues with low standards and failure to meet standards set for the industry.

Didn't you mention the states history of neglecting children?

Why did you entertain a creche at all?

Plopsu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it wasn’t a lie. I’ll point you to what I said again -

So you're aware that some people put their children in creches out of economic need but don't believe that they do?? Good man. :pac:

One eyed Jack

Ush1 wrote: »

Didn't you mention the states history of neglecting children?

Why did you entertain a creche at all?

Why wouldn’t I entertain a crèche? When they’re managed properly, they’re a fantastic facility for children. The issue is that in this country, the vast majority of childcare facilities aren’t managed properly. They are as I said well below international standards, and it’s rare and parents are incredibly fortunate if they find a crèche that is well managed and well run where children have the opportunities to thrive.

iamwhoiam

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I answered your question? I was there because I was inspecting the place before enrolling my child there. We decided not to, obviously.

Haha haha . this from the man who thinks parents should stay at home and they choose to work for material goods ./You have just contradicted every post you made now !!!! Now I get you !!! Gas man really ;

Like this one for example

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, both parents don’t have to work, they choose to work, and they choose to outsource the care of their children to people who advertise childcare as a service. It’s no different than parents have been doing since the dawn of human civilisation. Family unit hasn’t broken down at all, it’s still very much the prevalent and fundamental unit of society.

Or this one

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re right, it shouldn’t need explaining, and it doesn’t need excuses either. The facts are that you make lifestyle choices which the State are not responsible for, and then you expect that the State should protect your children from your own lifestyle choices. How do you think that could possibly work?

It’s actually wilful ignorance on your part because you are knowingly and willingly putting your children at risk, but you’re willing to do that because you want the privilege of being able to go to work and not have to take responsibility for raising your own children yourself.

I don’t expect any parent to do anything. I expect that when someone has a complaint about something, that they have at first at least done something themselves to resolve whatever is their issue. You’re arguing that it is the States responsibility to do your homework in the interests of protecting your children. I’m guessing you’re acutely aware of the States record in child protection, so you’re demanding that they do something they haven’t done before, while you’re not willing to help yourself, again I ask you - what do you expect anyone else to do about something which bothers you, when you aren’t even willing to help yourself?

You just fired an own goal here !!! So funny

Hannibal_Smith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No they didn’t, in the same way that another crèche didn’t want to draw my attention to the unfinished electrical wiring. I witnessed these things for myself.

How do you know the parents weren't aware of what was being fed to the kid? Or that it was some sort of snack? Did the creche show you around during meal times?

Ush1

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why wouldn’t I entertain a crèche? When they’re managed properly, they’re a fantastic facility for children. The issue is that in this country, the vast majority of childcare facilities aren’t managed properly. They are as I said well below international standards, and it’s rare and parents are incredibly fortunate if they find a crèche that is well managed and well run where children have the opportunities to thrive.

Because they wouldn't be vetted and regulated correctly as you had no faith in the state to protect children.

One eyed Jack

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Haha haha . this from the man who thinks parents should stay at home and they choose to work for material goods ./You have just contradicted every post you made now !!!! Now I get you !!! Gas man really ;

Like this one for example

I only look like I contradicted myself because you appear to have misread my posts to suggest something I never suggested at all. I have never suggested that parents should stay at home. What a family chooses to do is entirely up to themselves.

When they claim they have no choice but to make the choices they make, that’s when I will point out to them that actually they do have choices. Nobody is forcing them to make the choices they make, nobody has a gun to their head, they have the freedom and they have the rights granted to them by the Irish Constitution as parents of their own children to make decisions on behalf of their children. It’s their children who don’t have a choice. They as their children’s parents certainly do.

iamwhoiam

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I only look like I contradicted myself because you appear to have misread my posts to suggest something I never suggested at all. I have never suggested that parents should stay at home. What a family chooses to do is entirely up to themselves.

When they claim they have no choice but to make the choices they make, that’s when I will point out to them that actually they do have choices. Nobody is forcing them to make the choices they make, nobody has a gun to their head, they have the freedom and they have the rights granted to them by the Irish Constitution as parents of their own children to make decisions on behalf of their children. It’s their children who don’t have a choice. They as their children’s parents certainly do.

Or this post from you pontificating about two parents working .Oh my lord you are so contradicting yourself now and back peddling faster that the Tour de France cyclists go forward

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Y’know, it’s perfectly feasible for a couple to live within their means, y’know, while they both take responsibility for their children’s rearing and welfare instead of paying eye-watering crèche fees because they also want to be in employment.

One eyed Jack

Ush1 wrote: »

Because they wouldn't be vetted and regulated correctly as you had no faith in the state to protect children.

In that case I’m glad you gave me the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding you had of my position. I still wouldn’t trust the State to care for children, but that’s not the same as expecting that private businesses would meet regulations put in place by regulatory bodies to protect children’s welfare. They’re two completely separate things and you shouldn’t try to conflate them.

Ush1

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In that case I’m glad you gave me the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding you had of my position. I still wouldn’t trust the State to care for children, but that’s not the same as expecting that private businesses would meet regulations put in place by regulatory bodies to protect children’s welfare. They’re two completely separate things and you shouldn’t try to conflate them.

But you're the one who conflated them? You said this is ultimately the parents fault and they should have known better as the Irish state has a history of neglect etc...

I thought it was words to that effect anyway?

One eyed Jack

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Or this post from you pontificating about two parents working .Oh my lord you are so contradicting yourself now and back peddling faster that the Tour de France cyclists go forward

How is suggesting that it is feasible for parents to provide childcare for their own children as opposed to outsourcing childcare provision, contradicting myself? The fact is that many parents already do just that, so for people to suggest they have no choice, just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. They do have choices, they just make choices that suit their lifestyle in the same way as other parents make choices that suit their lifestyle. If they complained that they have no choice, I’d be just as quick in pointing out that in actual fact they do, plenty of choices.

One eyed Jack

Ush1 wrote: »

But you're the one who conflated them? You said this is ultimately the parents fault and they should have known better as the Irish state has a history of neglect etc...

I thought it was words to that effect anyway?

I didn’t conflate them. I’d suggest paying attention to what I did say and then you wouldn’t be confused about what you think I said.

iamwhoiam

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How is suggesting that it is feasible for parents to provide childcare for their own children as opposed to outsourcing childcare provision, contradicting myself? The fact is that many parents already do just that, so for people to suggest they have no choice, just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. They do have choices, they just make choices that suit their lifestyle in the same way as other parents make choices that suit their lifestyle. If they complained that they have no choice, I’d be just as quick in pointing out that in actual fact they do, plenty of choices.

You are gas now !!! I get it now and am out !! Hilarious

nthclare

The first three years of a child's lives experience, has a big impact on how they perceive humanity and their safety in their surroundings.

Now if a parent willingly and knowingly sends their child into a place in which the child isn't happy for most of the time then I think there's something seriously wrong.

All kid's will have bad day's the odd tantrums here and there, but I don't agree with an aul excuse of , what else do you expect us to do.

If in doubt take them out and if you put your careers in front of the kid's well it'll bite you back in the future.

After 3 onwards it's probably time to put up reasonable boundaries and teach them right from wrong, let them be confident and creative but draw the line between right and wrong....

Parenting is hard and my son's no angel but I'm glad I put the work into it at his early years.

I thank my sister for the help, there was times when I felt resentful and told her mind her business....

I'm not sexist but women are great mother's and father's have their own way.

Getting the balance ain't easy either...

retro:electro

Ush1 wrote: »

But you're the one who conflated them? You said this is ultimately the parents fault and they should have known better as the Irish state has a history of neglect etc...

I thought it was words to that effect anyway?

I rarely read his word vomit but yeah, you’re right. He conflated them by saying:

!I live in a country where we have an atrocious history of child welfare and we still do. It has everything to do with people living outside their means because there is no other way for some people to live the lifestyles they do without living well beyond their means. It’s everything to do with taking responsibility for their children’s welfare because ultimately it is parents who are responsible for their children’s welfare, and to suggest otherwise is what is patently stupid IMO.

That’s how we excused children being treated like shìte in the past - “people didn’t know any better”, “people had no choice”, etc. Yet here, when it’s blatantly shown that children are being mistreated, still we have people looking to suggest the crèches are responsible, the State is responsible, Tulsa is responsible, the HSE are responsible. Anyone else is responsible as long as the people who are ultimately responsible, aren’t responsible. That’s wrong.

If this isn’t proof he’s on a wind up I don’t know what is.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

green123 wrote: »

State agencies and public service employees are a disgrace in general.

All they want are huge salaries and cushy terms and conditions and all protected and backed up by unions.

Society has no chance while this continues

What a ridiculous generalisation. And can I remind you that this creche, and the ones that were the subject of a previous Prime Time Investigates, were all privately run. There are disgraceful people managing and working in lots of areas of both public and private sector. And there are also many people, in both sectors, who do a very good job.

So please don't turn this thread into an ill informed public service bashing one. It's getting tedious.

Sheepdish1

I haven't watched the programmes but TUSLA inspection reports for any creche are free and available to any member of the public that wants to view them online.

You can simply find the creche and look at the report......many creches fail the compliance in inspections. Some of the reports are quite shocking if you read them.

It is very unfair to blame parents for their children not being looked after. Creches are ''regulated'' so I assume many parents would assume that they are inspected regularly and closed down if not compliant with regulations.

Like all services involving care, some services are excellent and some are not. Some creches are absolutely fantastic to the children they mind and some people are very passionate about their businesses and jobs.

What I find most shocking about this is that the creches aren't being closed down by Tusla when this findings happen. How can this place even be allowed to open its doors this morning? People are only aware of this as RTE did a documentary on it. If they didn't would people be even aware of what was going on?

It is baffling that the Food Safety Authority will close down a restaurant but a facility risking the lives of children and their welfare is allowed open doors and continue operating.

AFAIK A restaurant will be closed down immediately due to ''grave concerns or immediate risk to public health''. Examples for closure orders could be not storing food at right temperature.......raw and cooked meat being prepared on same surface.......food not being labelled and stored correctly.....or risk of contamination for rust being on utensils for example.

How can a creche not be served a closure order for grave concerns and immediate risk to public health? Not following SIDS prevention guidelines is so dangerous. Even basic things like blind chords not being fixed is lethal.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

green123 wrote: »

Parents are 100% to blame.

If you want to have kids then one parent needs to stay home to look after them at least for the first few years.

If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to have kids.

Leaving babies in crèches all week is wrong.

Choose kids or choose a job. You can't have both.

Having children shouldn't be a luxury for those who can afford it. We should be trying to create a society where couples who don't want to put their child in a creche are not forced to do so because of exorbitant house prices and rent, and where those who do want to work full or part time can have access to affordable and well regulated child care.

shesty

Delightful posts here.

Sure we may aswell stop educating women while we are at it.What's the point pumping all that taxpayer money into them, when all they are good for once they have a baby is staying at home to mind them for the rest of their lives?

If anything we need to find a balance to allow parents to find a good balance particularly in the early years.But it is amazing how quickly as a parent you turn into a taxi driver for their social lives.And where does that leave you then, as a mother??With nothing.(As I attempt to write this post my three year old is throwing herself across me and on top of me and whining because...I am not doing something for her...who knows what...)

It has nothing to do with chosing to work to fund my "lifestyle" (if only!!!the one where I am in bed at ten every night and go nowhere at weekends??such a lifestyle!!!).It has to do with me being a person too, and needing to keep some semblance of myself intact underneath the demands of three small children.

There is a huge argument to be made for good parental leave, flexible working practices, leave that can be shared between both parents, an allowance (or the children's allowance) that could be offset against childcare costs, and, I think, a time limit placed on how long a child can spend in a creche each day -for example, say an 8hour day is the max.Like it or not, childcare is part of most parent's lives, and it needs to be open and well regulated and not seen as some sort of crime to use it.

One eyed Jack

retro:electro wrote: »

I rarely read his word vomit

And it appears you still don’t :rolleyes:

mariaalice

shesty wrote: »

Delightful posts here.

Sure we may aswell stop educating women while we are at it.What's the point pumping all that taxpayer money into them, when all they are good for once they have a baby is staying at home to mind them for the rest of their lives?

If anything we need to find a balance to allow parents to find a good balance particularly in the early years.But it is amazing how quickly as a parent you turn into a taxi driver for their social lives.And where does that leave you then, as a mother??With nothing.(As I attempt to write this post my three year old is throwing herself across me and on top of me and whining because...I am not doing something for her...who knows what...)

It has nothing to do with chosing to work to fund my "lifestyle" (if only!!!the one where I am in bed at ten every night and go nowhere at weekends??such a lifestyle!!!).It has to do with me being a person too, and needing to keep some semblance of myself intact underneath the demands of three small children.

There is a huge argument to be made for good parental leave, flexible working practices, leave that can be shared between both parents, an allowance (or the children's allowance) that could be offset against childcare costs, and, I think, a time limit placed on how long a child can spend in a creche each day -for example, say an 8hour day is the max.Like it or not, childcare is part of most parent's lives, and it needs to be open and well regulated and not seen as some sort of crime to use it.

Why is it about mothere in this day and age fathers are parent too and 50% responsible for parenting why are they not looking for parental leave and flexiabale working so they can spend time with their chidren.

Ush1

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t conflate them. I’d suggest paying attention to what I did say and then you wouldn’t be confused about what you think I said.

Do you want to clarify?

Parents ultimately to blame as they made lifestyle choices and kids could not be guaranteed protection from the state, yet you considered a creche yourself.

nthclare

shesty wrote: »

Delightful posts here.

Sure we may aswell stop educating women while we are at it.What's the point pumping all that taxpayer money into them, when all they are good for once they have a baby is staying at home to mind them for the rest of their lives?

If anything we need to find a balance to allow parents to find a good balance particularly in the early years.But it is amazing how quickly as a parent you turn into a taxi driver for their social lives.And where does that leave you then, as a mother??With nothing.(As I attempt to write this post my three year old is throwing herself across me and on top of me and whining because...I am not doing something for her...who knows what...)

It has nothing to do with chosing to work to fund my "lifestyle" (if only!!!the one where I am in bed at ten every night and go nowhere at weekends??such a lifestyle!!!).It has to do with me being a person too, and needing to keep some semblance of myself intact underneath the demands of three small children.

There is a huge argument to be made for good parental leave, flexible working practices, leave that can be shared between both parents, an allowance (or the children's allowance) that could be offset against childcare costs, and, I think, a time limit placed on how long a child can spend in a creche each day -for example, say an 8hour day is the max.Like it or not, childcare is part of most parent's lives, and it needs to be open and well regulated and not seen as some sort of crime to use it.

This is a great example of how hard parenting is and how much time and effort one has to put into it.

My sister's in the same boat, luckily my parents sometimes take the kid's in the evening to give herself and her husband free time to relax.

Mum and dad loves the kid's around, so it's not like my sister and her husband use it for their own advantage.

As a kid give me a choice grannie's and grandads for a few Hours or mum and dad's...

Grannies of course

retro:electro

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And it appears you still don’t :rolleyes:

Ever think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not the comprehension skills of just about everyone else and maybe it’s down to the fact that your posts are, multi quote spam aside, a minefield of contradictions? I don’t think you even know what you’re on about at this point and tbh I’m past caring because for me, the whole “pick the contrary side of the argument and stick to it at all costs” shtick got old a long time ago.

LirW

Grand let's do it in cold hard numbers:

When I Google the median wage the first number it spits out is 39k pa.
Running that through the Deloitte tax calculator it gives me 33.5k after taxes. This breaks down to 2793€ per month. But wait there are 140 per month in child benefit, you know the stuff those nasty parents get rich on according to everyone.
So we have 2933€ available per month.

Google gives me a lovely 2bed apartment in Donabate because we're not living beyond our means. Well then. It's 1600 per month please.
Then you want it nice and warm and need heating in the cold period, we break those heating costs down per month as let's say 80 Euros. Electricity another 80. Then since they are in Donabate and one parent is supposed to stay at home let's say they have a car. We're still living within our means, it's a hanger, 12 year old car, I just renewed my insurance on one, the best I got was 100 per month. Let's put another 100 on top for maintenance work that a car this age has from time to time. And 100 in fuel for the month, that's not unreasonable.
Then the working parent works in the city centre and gets the train and the Luas, 180 Euros for the monthly short hop.
We're already on 2240 euros and haven't eaten yet.

Then we do our grocery shop, but let's keep in mind we're frugal so we go to Aldi and pay 100 for our weekly shop.

I forgot: nowadays everyone has internet and a TV, with all the frugal life you want some TV too at the end of the day, so we get a bundle with everything for 90 euros.
And don't forget the phones, not going overboard and it's 50 between the two of you.

Children grow, clothes break from time to time, we all need good shoes so we budget 100 a month for a variety of clothing needs for all 3 of them.

So every cent is accounted for necessities. 2880 Euros, there's 53 euros left.
No pension contribution, no socialising in any way, no GP visits. No take-away, no meals out, no Christmas presents accounted for. Savings? Forget it. Holidays? How?
So where are all the luxuries there?
What do you do when the washing machine breaks? The car dies? Someone gets ill?
Or for once you'd like to do something really nice just as a couple because the trot of things wears you down?

But hey, I get it, it's all a choice, we can totally live off ramen for the 3 years we're on one income.

givyjoe

retro:electro wrote: »

Ever think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not the comprehension skills of just about everyone else and maybe it’s down to the fact that your posts are, multi quote spam aside, a minefield of contradictions? I don’t think you even know what you’re on about at this point and tbh I’m past caring because for me, the whole “pick the contrary side of the argument and stick to it at all costs” shtick got old a long time ago.

This times 1 million, every thread, every time.

One eyed Jack

mariaalice wrote: »

Why is it about mothere in this day and age fathers are parent too and 50% responsible for parenting why are they not looking for parental leave and flexiabale working so they can spend time with their chidren.

It isn’t just about mothers though, it’s about parents, and what parents decide for themselves is in theirs and their families best interests. I can only tell you from my perspective as a father and as a parent that I have no interest in parental leave. I have a job which allows me to be flexible already, so I’m not particularly interested in campaigning for mandatory provisions to be made in legislation. It’s up to employers to offer working conditions which they think will attract employees looking for that sort of flexibility. It’s up to employees to demand the sort of flexibility they want from their employer, or else find alternative employment where they are offered the kind of flexibility you’re talking about.

One eyed Jack

LirW wrote: »

Grand let's do it in cold hard numbers:

When I Google the median wage the first number it spits out is 39k pa.

...

But hey, I get it, it's all a choice, we can totally live off ramen for the 3 years we're on one income.

That’s not cold hard numbers? That is by your own admission the median wage in Ireland. This means there are people who are above that, and the people who are below that, and if you want I can grab the stats from the CSO again, but really you haven’t proven anything only that you can make up whatever figures you like and call them cold hard numbers. Yet the fact is that families manage every single day on a household income a lot less than the average wage and still they are able to have children and provide for themselves and their children.

iamwhoiam

givyjoe wrote: »

This times 1 million, every thread, every time.

Its blatantly obvious now . I find it hilarious that anyone would bother being contrary all the time . It must be exhausting !