RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

LirW

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s not cold hard numbers? That is by your own admission the median wage in Ireland. This means there are people who are above that, and the people who are below that, and if you want I can grab the stats from the CSO again, but really you haven’t proven anything only that you can make up whatever figures you like and call them cold hard numbers. Yet the fact is that families manage every single day on a lot less than the average wage and still they are able to have children and provide for themselves and their children.

And you know how they do it if they're stretched? Either by availing of help from social welfare or both working.
Median wage on Donegal or Wexford is actually fine to care for a family. But in the cities you'll be VERY stretched because the costs of living are very high.
For something that involves the average working citizen I'd say it's fair to take average numbers.

But I understand that everything you truly care about here is to put people down for deciding what's best for them and their families. Good for you that you and your wife manage but how dare you saying that the reason people avail of childcare is because they choose to live lavish lifestyles.
I did the whole stay-at-home shebang for two years, every bloody cent was accounted for. While I enjoyed the time with my daughter it sucked having to worry about the possibility of our old car breaking down, feeling the immense pressure when school is coming back or Christmas is around. I haven't seen my family abroad in over two years.
All these sacrifices sucked and I was fed up with it having to worry about money constantly. For me it wasn't worth it anymore. I'm almost 30 and haven't made a single pension payment because I was at home and couldn't afford to prior.
It was totally worth to be with my daughter but there were downsides, I was mentally in an all-time low because I was so lonely because I have no support network close and having to put small payments (like car repairs) on the credit card because we didn't have the money at hand for it. Or basically have to stay in the sh1tty village I live in most of the time because fuel is carefully accounted for and I can't just randomly go places.

Besides of having no wishes for more kids I can confidently say that I wouldn't do it this way again.

Hannibal_Smith

I'm so afraid that the show last night will get lost in waffle. It's not fair to deflect from the person who is directly responsible for flopping those kids face first into a cot, the person who did it, because then this person gets away with it.

She was being well paid and made enough of a profit to care for those children properly. She was deliberately deceiving parents on a couple of points. Watering down milk and feeding them with instant noodles, I mean come on!

Do Tusla not follow up on breaches? Or do they take the word of the creche?

shesty

mariaalice wrote: »

Why is it about mothere in this day and age fathers are parent too and 50% responsible for parenting why are they not looking for parental leave and flexiabale working so they can spend time with their chidren.

Absolutely.My post referred to both parents.I work for a fairly enlightened employer, heavily male oriented role, and quite a few of my coworkers (daddies) take their parental leave.Money is tight but then childcare costs money, they just view it as part of parenting.As you say, we all have to start pushing it as parents, particularly for the early years.

TheBoyConor

griffin100 wrote: »

My wife operates a simple rule in all her creches to help install confidence in parents. When you come to collect your child you are allowed to walk unannounced down to the room in which they are located and walk in. The teacher / childcare assistant in that room gets no warning of your coming. If your creche makes you wait in the lobby whilst they go get your kid for you, you have a problem.

Is that not dangerous that someone can just waltz in unannounced and have access to areas where children are present? What is to stop a person who has pedophilic tendencies from accessing the area? What if there was a snatch and run incident with someone who just strolled in knowing the lax arrangements?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

shesty wrote: »

Delightful posts here.

Sure we may aswell stop educating women while we are at it.What's the point pumping all that taxpayer money into them, when all they are good for once they have a baby is staying at home to mind them for the rest of their lives?

If anything we need to find a balance to allow parents to find a good balance particularly in the early years.But it is amazing how quickly as a parent you turn into a taxi driver for their social lives.And where does that leave you then, as a mother??With nothing.(As I attempt to write this post my three year old is throwing herself across me and on top of me and whining because...I am not doing something for her...who knows what...)

It has nothing to do with chosing to work to fund my "lifestyle" (if only!!!the one where I am in bed at ten every night and go nowhere at weekends??such a lifestyle!!!).It has to do with me being a person too, and needing to keep some semblance of myself intact underneath the demands of three small children.

There is a huge argument to be made for good parental leave, flexible working practices, leave that can be shared between both parents, an allowance (or the children's allowance) that could be offset against childcare costs, and, I think, a time limit placed on how long a child can spend in a creche each day -for example, say an 8hour day is the max.Like it or not, childcare is part of most parent's lives, and it needs to be open and well regulated and not seen as some sort of crime to use it.

I agree with all of that, but it must not be at the expense of workers who don't have children. For example I see many of my colleagues run ragged trying to care for and sort out problems regarding ageing and increasingly infirm or confused parents. They also need more flexibility and special leave, not to be left to pick up the shortfall by any new policies aimed solely at parents of young children.

The demographic of the labour force has changed vastly in recent decades. It is no longer composed mainly of men and young single women, while other women are at home doing all of the childcare and care of elderly relatives. We need new policies to cater for this changing demographic, including ones that facilitate the option of leaving the workplace or reducing working hours for all those with caring responsibilities while also respecting the right to a healthy work/life balance of all workers.

Neyite

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Is that not dangerous that someone can just waltz in unannounced and have access to areas where children are present? What is to stop a person who has pedophilic tendencies from accessing the area? What if there was a snatch and run incident with someone who just strolled in knowing the lax arrangements?

No, you can't just stroll into any creche. There's usually a camera or a window where the staff member can see you and recognise you before buzzing you in and in some larger creches you only get buzzed into the room that your child is in.
Parents themselves are usually vigilant about making sure the door is shut after them properly, mainly so that no toddler will escape, but also so that nobody can just slip in. You get to recognise the parents that do a similar pick up or drop off to you anyway, or you'd at least recognise their kids from the room.


In many cases if you aren't nominated on the list of trusted adults for pickup then you don't get any child handed over, doesn't matter what relation you are to that child. For example one day my partner needed his sister to pick up our son for us, and he rang ahead to explain who she was and even though she's his double and clearly an aunt our son knew well, the creche worker double checked with the manager that permission had been granted by a parent before buzzing her in.

iamwhoiam

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Is that not dangerous that someone can just waltz in unannounced and have access to areas where children are present? What is to stop a person who has pedophilic tendencies from accessing the area? What if there was a snatch and run incident with someone who just strolled in knowing the lax arrangements?

Creches usually have a keypad on the door and it changes often . Parents are given the code to enter
Cocoon creches have cameras in the kids room and parents can login online with a password to see the children whenever they want to .

LirW

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Is that not dangerous that someone can just waltz in unannounced and have access to areas where children are present? What is to stop a person who has pedophilic tendencies from accessing the area? What if there was a snatch and run incident with someone who just strolled in knowing the lax arrangements?

A lot of crèches have doorbells where you have to identify yourself as parent of X. Either that or if there's just one of the staff walking past they open and let you in once they know you or you identified yourself.
Most crèches operate a strict pick up policy where only the parent/s are allowed to pick their kids up (and they have to identify themselves sufficiently) or you have to call in if another named person is picking the child up.

In my crèche many parents have flexible pick up times and basically show up whenever and since all the kids are supervised at all times parents can walk up to their rooms.
Also there is a receptionist most of the time and she knows everyone anyway.

TheBoyConor

GreeBo wrote: »

A parent/guardian of a child is *not* some unvetted person and you should absolutely be able to go and see/collect your child at any time.

Collecting a child is not "walking freely around a creche".

Most creches have controlled access to the various rooms and you are only given access as a parent.

A parent could also be an abuser or an potential paedohpile.

freshpopcorn

Slightly off topic. When I was in play school in the 90's. One of the teachers/leaders/etc put sellotape on a guys lips for talking to much.
I met her last year and lets just say she wasn't the nicest person in the World.

One eyed Jack

LirW wrote: »

But I understand that everything you truly care about here is to put people down for deciding what's best for them and their families... how dare you saying that the reason people avail of childcare is because they choose to live lavish lifestyles.

Everything you’ve said is fair and I don’t disagree with any of it, except for what you’ve written above. I have no interest in putting anyone down. I am absolutely critical of people who claim they have no choice, or they have little choice. I said that some people avail of childcare because they have notions and that is a fact. I didn’t say everyone who avails of childcare has notions. I said that people prioritise what works for them according to their lifestyle and that is a fact. It is not a fact to claim they have no choice in the matter.

I don’t imagine that people will change their lifestyles at all off the back of last nights programme. It’ll be swept under the carpet and forgotten about and people will simply be grateful they dodged a bullet by choosing to put their children in another crèche besides the ones shown on the programme last night.

D.Q

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Slightly off topic. When I was in play school in the 90's. One of the teachers/leaders/etc put sellotape on a guys lips for talking to much.
I met her last year and lets just say she wasn't the nicest person in the World.

has someone taken it off yet?

Keyzer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A parent could also be an abuser or an potential paedohpile.

Lol... what the fúck are you smoking?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Everything you’ve said is fair and I don’t disagree with any of it, except for what you’ve written above. I have no interest in putting anyone down. I am absolutely critical of people who claim they have no choice, or they have little choice. I said that some people avail of childcare because they have notions and that is a fact. I didn’t say everyone who avails of childcare has notions. I said that people prioritise what works for them according to their lifestyle and that is a fact. It is not a fact to claim they have no choice in the matter.

I don’t imagine that people will change their lifestyles at all off the back of last nights programme. It’ll be swept under the carpet and forgotten about and people will simply be grateful they dodged a bullet by choosing to put their children in another crèche besides the ones shown on the programme last night.

But surely you realise that many parents are working because they simply could not afford to buy a house at today's prices or pay Dublin rents on one salary, not because they want fancy holidays and 19 reg cars?

Mrsmum

Not a lover of creches especially huge "professional" ones as imo they are unsuitable caring environments for babies to thrive in. Babies need the security of a constant caregiver in their first few years and that doesn't tie in with the huge turnaround of staff in creches. Also it seems to me that the staff who are there are under too much pressure to build the warm bonds each individual child needs. And the poor children living in an environment where other children's distress & crying is a normal and probably constant part of the day, what will that do to a small child, they will either internalise it as anxiety or self protect by becoming unconcerned at the sound of crying. A childminder is a much better option imo but ideally I think we (Irish society) should be opting and pushing for more and more and more family friendly work options so children get to be cared for less hours by outsiders and more hours by family. The first few years are vitally important and by protecting children then, we are protecting society.

saw this last night, horrendous stuff to see. She smacks of a Magdalen laudry nun/witch circa 1950!!!! even seeing her in the paper today with her ashen face and lank hair conjures up images of the child catcher from chitty chitty bang bang!!

skinny90

My questions after watching last night.

How in gods name is this place still funded?

Where is the accountability from Tusla on this matter?

They have done nothing in terms of enforcing their concerns?

The owner/Manager has stepped down as a result of the investigation.

But her and her family still own all of the businesses?

The investigation was good to expose but as I understand it business will be as usual for Anne and her family??

LirW

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t imagine that people will change their lifestyles at all off the back of last nights programme. It’ll be swept under the carpet and forgotten about and people will simply be grateful they dodged a bullet by choosing to put their children in another crèche besides the ones shown on the programme last night.

But what lifestyle changes should they make? One parent quitting their job because one crèche really seriously messed up?
The issue is way way bigger: since Tusla isn't doing what they're supposed to do parents can only rely on the goodwill of private crèches for the most part that they do their job right and pay them top dollar for it.
An overhaul from the ground up is needed in order to make everything overall better.
Right now the top priority is to make money and corners are cut. Childcare worker are paid minimum wage despite the care being so expensive for parents. The qualification they need is just about the bare minimum and there is no real understanding to pay well-trained and educated staff with experience a fair wage.
Food varies widely from facility to facility.

And we as parents can only react by either choosing the best facility available, quitting our job and doing it ourselves (and we've finally established that some simply can't do that) or outsourcing it to someone who does is cash in hand, which is a big underground business that the government turns a blind eye on. Or have the money to employ a private minder and pay them minimum wage at least.

And since for some crèches waiting lists are long and you have to register the day after you popped the baby out, you might never get your first and ideal choice.
All in all, childcare is a mess, not because we parents don't care but were given a handful of options that are not ideal and might not suit, especially if you have somewhat unorthodox working hours.

If one of my kids would have been in Hyde&Seek I'd probably take them out immediately but what then? Crèche places are not growing on trees, I can't just quit overnight, a solution can't be found within an hour.

One eyed Jack

Ivy Crooked Dial wrote: »

But surely you realise that many parents are working because they simply could not afford to buy a house at today's prices or pay Dublin rents on one salary, not because they want fancy holidays and 19 reg cars?

Absolutely! That’s what I mean by people prioritising one thing over another or whatever - people make choices according to what’s most important to them, and I have never criticised that. What I am critical of is people who complain that they have no choice. There are people who buy smaller houses, there are people who pay Dublin rents on one salary, there are people who decide that they cannot afford to have more children as they are already pushed to their limits with the number of children they have. Y’know, these are all choices that people make. We’re not living in a society where the idea of social mobility is a foreign concept for anyone.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely! That’s what I mean by people prioritising one thing over another or whatever - people make choices according to what’s most important to them, and I have never criticised that. What I am critical of is people who complain that they have no choice. There are people who buy smaller houses, there are people who pay Dublin rents on one salary, there are people who decide that they cannot afford to have more children as they are already pushed to their limits with the number of children they have. Y’know, these are all choices that people make. We’re not living in a society where the idea of social mobility is a foreign concept for anyone.

What about a couple that have no children, want children, and cannot afford even a basic house or apartment in Dublin on one salary? The only 'choice' they have is to forego having a child. That's a huge sacrifice to ask of anyone and not a fair one.

Successive governments have created and allowed to continue a situation where the cost of supporting and putting a roof over a family's head is not possible, for many many people, on one salary. They have also actively encouraged and incentivised young parents, and particularly women, to remain in the workforce in order to grow our economy. They therefore have responsibility for ensuring that there are safe and affordable childcare options for those people. Instead they have allowed the flourishing of creches run as profit making businesses by people who have no interest in children, no knowledge of childcare and no interest in the welfare of the children they are being paid to look after.

LirW

Mrsmum wrote: »

Not a lover of creches especially huge "professional" ones as imo they are unsuitable caring environments for babies to thrive in. Babies need the security of a constant caregiver in their first few years and that doesn't tie in with the huge turnaround of staff in creches. Also it seems to me that the staff who are there are under too much pressure to build the warm bonds each individual child needs. And the poor children living in an environment where other children's distress & crying is a normal and probably constant part of the day, what will that do to a small child, they will either internalise it as anxiety or self protect by becoming unconcerned at the sound of crying. A childminder is a much better option imo but ideally I think we (Irish society) should be opting and pushing for more and more and more family friendly work options so children get to be cared for less hours by outsiders and more hours by family. The first few years are vitally important and by protecting children then, we are protecting society.

Issue with childminders is that they aren't checked up on regularly either. Many of them are unregistered and not vetted because it cuts out a cost factor, even though they're great with kids they're technically working illegally.
They can be a great option for some but for example I decided for a crèche and against a childminder for my small one because I couldn't find anyone who was a) vetted properly and b) could provide the hours we needed.

One eyed Jack

LirW wrote: »

But what lifestyle changes should they make? One parent quitting their job because one crèche really seriously messed up?
The issue is way way bigger: since Tusla isn't doing what they're supposed to do parents can only rely on the goodwill of private crèches for the most part that they do their job right and pay them top dollar for it.
An overhaul from the ground up is needed in order to make everything overall better.
Right now the top priority is to make money and corners are cut. Childcare worker are paid minimum wage despite the care being so expensive for parents. The qualification they need is just about the bare minimum and there is no real understanding to pay well-trained and educated staff with experience a fair wage.
Food varies widely from facility to facility.

And we as parents can only react by either choosing the best facility available, quitting our job and doing it ourselves (and we've finally established that some simply can't do that) or outsourcing it to someone who does is cash in hand, which is a big underground business that the government turns a blind eye on. Or have the money to employ a private minder and pay them minimum wage at least.

And since for some crèches waiting lists are long and you have to register the day after you popped the baby out, you might never get your first and ideal choice.
All in all, childcare is a mess, not because we parents don't care but were given a handful of options that are not ideal and might not suit, especially if you have somewhat unorthodox working hours.

If one of my kids would have been in Hyde&Seek I'd probably take them out immediately but what then? Crèche places are not growing on trees, I can't just quit overnight, a solution can't be found within an hour.

Whatever lifestyle choices anyone makes are entirely their own business. I’m not in any position to tell other people what lifestyle choices they should make unless I’m specifically asked for my advice, and even then I would need a lot more information than simply whether or not a parent or guardian should avail of childcare. It would be a far more nuanced decision than just a determination made on that basis which would mean taking their whole lifestyle as it stands now into account, and finding out what they actually want to achieve!

It’s true that an immediate solution couldn’t be found within the hour and at least you would have chosen to remove your child from that Jekyll&Hyde of a shìt show, but if you claimed that you had no choice but to leave your child there, then surely you can see why I might raise an eyebrow in those circumstances? It would be entirely your prerogative, entirely your responsibility, but it wouldn’t be true to say you had no choice but to leave your child there.

You’re right that there are wider issues in standards of childcare that need addressing, but to be perfectly honest with you I don’t expect that Tulsa or the HSE or indeed the current Government are all that interested in standards in childcare provision. They haven’t been up to this point and I don’t expect that to change at any point in the immediate future. There was lots of noise made after the last time a Prime Time Investigates episode uncovered gross breaches in standards, and after a while everyone went back to business as usual. I don’t see how this time it would be any different.

LirW

I just thought of it: I read an article a while ago about graduates that start working for Tusla and that over half of them quit within the first year.
The reason is that the workload is too big, way too bureaucratic and the staff morale is low because everybody wants to provide good service but can't because they spend their time doing paperwork.

I totally get not trusting Tusla with pretty much anything, they are as mismanaged as the HSE.

TheBoyConor

To the idiotic statements of some demanding that those creches should be given an immediate closure order in the same fashion as an FSAI audit on a restaurant you have to remember this... A restaurant can close and not really inconvenience anyone apart from the management and owners until the corrective actions are in place. A creche or preschool could be looking after 100 or more children. An immediate closure would have major ramifications to a lot of people such as it results in 100 mothers mainly not being able to go to work for a few weeks because there'd be literally no hope of finding another creche.

ChikiChiki

How can Anne Davy who has been before the courts multiple times before feel so confident and comfortable to break so many rules and regulations? She is obviously not afraid of spot checks or the ramifications of being caught.

It goes back to everything else in this country, a culture which flows down from the corridors of Leinster House and once embedded is very difficult to reverse.

No Accountability!

Stephen15

TheBoyConor wrote: »

To the idiotic statements of some demanding that those creches should be given an immediate closure order in the same fashion as an FSAI audit on a restaurant you have to remember this... A restaurant can close and not really inconvenience anyone apart from the management and owners until the corrective actions are in place. A creche or preschool could be looking after 100 or more children. An immediate closure would have major ramifications to a lot of people such as it results in 100 mothers mainly not being able to go to work for a few weeks because there'd be literally no hope of finding another creche.

And which is more important inconvience caused to parents or a child's safety? Obliviously just like with restaurants an immediate closure order would only be used in extreme circumstances.

Hannibal_Smith

TheBoyConor wrote: »

To the idiotic statements of some demanding that those creches should be given an immediate closure order in the same fashion as an FSAI audit on a restaurant you have to remember this... A restaurant can close and not really inconvenience anyone apart from the management and owners until the corrective actions are in place. A creche or preschool could be looking after 100 or more children. An immediate closure would have major ramifications to a lot of people such as it results in 100 mothers mainly not being able to go to work for a few weeks because there'd be literally no hope of finding another creche.

Who recommended treating it like a restaurant?

If there is a chance that ANY creche is in breach of fire regulations, letting kids sleep on their tummies and in bouncers and being quite forceful with kids as in Part 3 of the program, then yes. It should be shut. These are breaches that can be fatal.

faceman

Gardai have confirmed they are investigating the issues raised.

Boggles

faceman wrote: »

Gardai have confirmed they are investigating the issues raised.

I'm not so sure anything I saw last night would meet the criminal threshold, as unpleasant as some of it was to watch.

iamwhoiam

Boggles wrote: »

I'm not so sure anything I saw last night would meet the criminal threshold, as unpleasant as some of it was to watch.

A manager advising the staff to lie a baby on its tummy might . Holding a childs face and pushing it down might at very least be given a warning ?