RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

hognef

sabat wrote: »

I genuinely don't see the point having children if you just want to fob them off to the care of the state at the earliest opportunity. Is it because that's what's best for them or what's best for you?

Generally, I'd expect it to be because, on the balance, it's a decent solution for both them and you. Clearly, it's a compromise. Do you really think it's better for the family overall if the mother (it tends to be the mother) gives up her job to mind the children and also gives up all career prospects (and prospects of building her own pension pot) in the process?

This is the real choice families have to make. For anybody who just have a 'job' (with no career and no pension and no personal fulfillment attached) it's probably fine to take a break to raise kids (they'll probably get another job once they are ready), but for somebody with an ounce of aspirations, that break is likely to be permanent, or at least have major ramifications (companies aren't exactly known for hiring people who haven't worked the last 10 or 15 years).

freshpopcorn

have2flushtwice wrote: »

How come no parents have visited the creches and not see this??

Anne Davy said it herself from what I remember.
You lie to the parents and tell them everything was great. ''Wow you built bricks/etc'' was something she said.

One eyed Jack

hognef wrote: »

Generally, I'd expect it to be because, on the balance, it's a decent solution for both them and you. Clearly, it's a compromise. Do you really think it's better for the family overall if the mother (it tends to be the mother) gives up her job to mind the children and also gives up all career prospects (and prospects of building her own pension pot) in the process?

This is the real choice families have to make. For anybody who just have a 'job' (with no career and no pension and no personal fulfillment attached) it's probably fine to take a break to raise kids (they'll probably get another job once they are ready), but for somebody with an ounce of aspirations, that break is likely to be permanent, or at least have major ramifications (companies aren't exactly known for hiring people who haven't worked the last 10 or 15 years).

Do those ‘aspirations’ include owning a crèche franchise business?

hognef

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Do those ‘aspirations’ include owning a crèche franchise business?

?

Greentopia

sabat wrote: »

I genuinely don't see the point having children if you just want to fob them off to the care of the state at the earliest opportunity. Is it because that's what's best for them or what's best for you?

Both, if your job is rewarding and interesting, and the standard of care is first class for the child. Socialisation and improving motor skills are important for small children and studies show there are health benefits (e.g. better immunity to certain diseases) for small children being around other kids, so I'd want them to have that for a few hours a week at least.

I personally wouldn't stick a child of mine in a creche every day for full days and hope for the best, but I can understand why some parents need to when two incomes are needed.

Dante7

tigger123 wrote: »

Or the kids Dads could stay at home and look after them.

I ended up doing that. I became a single father and tried to juggle the work parent thing, but found it unworkable. Money isn't always an answer. I was earning €70k a year but still found it impossible.

One eyed Jack

hognef wrote: »

?

My point is that we’ve seen tonight what those ‘aspirations’ you speak of can lead to.

retro:electro

I’m not a violent person, have never raised a hand to anyone in my life but Jesus. If that was one of my nieces that bitch was slam dunking into a cot I wouldn’t be responsible for my actions. If she gets away with this it’s an absolute crying shame. Devastated for the little babies and their parents watching that.

Abba987

retro:electro wrote: »

I’m not a violent person, have never raised a hand to anyone in my life but Jesus. If that was one of my nieces that bitch was slam dunking into a cot I wouldn’t be responsible for my actions. If she gets away with this it’s an absolute crying shame. Devestated for the little babies and their parents watching that.

It would drive a normal person to murder

hognef

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My point is that we’ve seen tonight what those ‘aspirations’ you speak of can lead to.

What are you talking about? We shouldn't encourage people to have aspirations in case theirs are to (badly) own and run a crèche? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I was referring to career aspirations within your chosen field (of education, experience, etc.) - just in case that wasn't clear to you.

The Princess Bride

Just watching this now.
I am horrified, what a nasty nasty piece of work Anne Davey is, I hope she gets her comeuppance.

I am speechless here, to think parents pay for this?
Child abuse- simple.

One eyed Jack

hognef wrote: »

What are you talking about? We shouldn't encourage people to have aspirations in case theirs are to (badly) own and run a crèche? That makes no sense whatsoever.

No, my point is that what you think should be people’s aspirations, isn’t shared by over 455,000 women in Ireland today, and you’re right, it is mostly women who aspire to care for their own children as opposed to placing their children in childcare facilities, 98% of parents who choose to care for their own children are women in fact.

Other people have other aspirations for themselves and part of achieving those aspirations means for them that they are willing to place their children in childcare facilities which are a business, and business owners regard them as a business, specifically run with the intent of making as much profit from the business as possible, because that is what they ‘aspire’ to.

The idea that anyone “has no choice in the matter” or “has very little choice in the matter” when it comes to the care of their children simply isn’t borne out by the evidence that in fact it is possible to have children and care for their own children themselves as opposed to paying eye-watering childcare facilities which by the nature of their business model aren’t going to be able to provide the same standards of care as the parents themselves.

That’s a choice parents make themselves, for themselves, and suggestions that they should aspire to what you think they should aspire to are precisely why some parents feel that’s what they have to aspire to, in spite of the potentially adverse consequences for their children, which is why we end up with programmes like the one tonight investigating dire standards of “care” in childcare facilities. The franchise shown on the programme tonight is only one of many substandard childcare facilities dotted up and down the country which are charging parents willing to pay it an arm and a leg to treat their children like shìte.


Aspirations? More like notions tbh.

branie2

Agreed

punisher5112

Look I get your one seems a bit nuts but having these physiology types on saying you can't give out to a child or tell them they're wrong or you will be telling their parents is beyond fooking nuts and no wonder i come across young teens wanting to fight or threating with knives etc....

The manager/owner should be that and let others work and do what they are trained to do....
She has absolutely no training but is a cute fecker and making good money...

whippet

Samsgirl wrote: »

What a crock of ****e.

Only in Ireland you can't have both. Look at Finland or other countries where child care providers are regulated and staff are paid a proper wage.

like in sweeden .. proper child care facilities at little to no cost to the parents … only difference is that the Scandinavians pay their taxes .. as in everyone pays their taxes and pay a lot of taxes but are happy to do so to get services like these.

Until as a society we are willing to pay high taxes - as in everyone contribute .. not just the squeezed middle we might then be able to look for services like these.

lawlolawl

We really can't compare ourselves to Nordic countries in regard to services.

Their taxes are much higher and they also have a fortune coming into state coffers from natural gas and oil money.

They have the money to pay for this stuff, we don't.

Hannibal_Smith

green123 wrote: »

Parents are 100% to blame.

If you want to have kids then one parent needs to stay home to look after them at least for the first few years.

If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to have kids.

Leaving babies in crèches all week is wrong.

Choose kids or choose a job. You can't have both.

Some one throws a baby into a cot and covers their face, even though the child is trying to push their hand away, they are the only one responsible. Not the parents, not the child, the person carrying it out.

acronym Chilli

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re right, it shouldn’t need explaining, and it doesn’t need excuses either. The facts are that you make lifestyle choices which the State are not responsible for, and then you expect that the State should protect your children from your own lifestyle choices. How do you think that could possibly work?

So why not argue that having a child at all is a lifestyle choice, why should state therefore ever be party to protecting those children, so why would gardai ever get involved in eg a child murder. Up to parents to deal with?


This is idiotic unless you're actually prepared to go full free for all,

evolving_doors

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The sooner all pre-school education comes under state control, as secondary school education did from 1967, the better.

Secondary education isn't under state control. Same with primary. It's divested out to patrons.

whiskeyman

The harsh reality is, I bet all her creches opened this morning and many are dropping their kids in as they've simply no other choices.
Childcare in this country is a shambles.

evolving_doors

green123 wrote: »

Parents are 100% to blame.

If you want to have kids then one parent needs to stay home to look after them at least for the first few years.

If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to have kids.

Leaving babies in crèches all week is wrong.

Choose kids or choose a job. You can't have both.

How do you manage it with your family? Does your income allow your wife to stay at home?

Yurt2

lawlolawl wrote: »

We really can't compare ourselves to Nordic countries in regard to services.

Their taxes are much higher and they also have a fortune coming into state coffers from natural gas and oil money.

They have the money to pay for this stuff, we don't.

Of the 5 Nordics, only Norway has oil and gas of any note.

um7y1h83ge06nx

For those that blame the parents for this and not giving up one of their jobs I was thinking of a few examples I know:

One woman recently rejoined the IT workforce after a few years out. She went back to do another short course to prove to employers she was still interested which required some work. If she didn't leave work to stay at home she would be on at least 70-75k now but she came back on 40k which is a big hit. That said she's happy to be back.

One day I was chatting with a former colleague and was surprised to learn he was not contributing to the company pension despite it being a good scheme - employee pays 4%, employers pays in 6%. The reason was that on a single salary they couldn't afford to, making things in the future for them more uncertain, he admitted money was tight.

If I left my job for a few years I would find it very difficult to get back into it, the break would be difficult to get around with employers. My wife, if she stayed out, would have to do a long period of unpaid work experience i.e. clinical placement and build up her continuous professional development points before she could go back fully.

tigger123

With house prices and rents, particularly in Dublin, a lot of famalies have no choice; both of them need to work in order to make ends meet.

I was shocked by what i saw last night. But there are fantastic childcare facilities and childcare workers out there. People with no experience of the sector shouldn't assume that this is the norm.

Beechwoodspark

Saw a few mins last night. The bit about watering down the milk etc.

Made me realise they were running the place purely with one aim - profiteering.

Does anyone know

Was this crèche cheaper than others in competition with it?

If so, how much was the saving by going with this crèche?

Hannibal_Smith

dickangel wrote: »

There was a lot of difficult viewing there.

But some stuff was completely clutching at straws like your one telling telling the kid they were being bold and they'd speak to their parents. Cue shocked expert that pretends it's borderline child abuse. It was unnecessary to include that, just seemed a bit sensational.

Other than that, some worrying practices exposed.

When I saw that I wondered how the kids had the time to wreck the room. And maybe if they were building bricks like she was going to tell the parents, they wouldn't have wrecked it. They're small kids, she's treating them like 8 year olds. They didn't deliberately mess the place up. Yet there she was giving them a right b*locking.

Lillyfae

Abba987 wrote: »

We can be like ships in the night so as not to need childcare. I've been worried about money lately but we get by fine and after watching that I wouldn't change a thing

Employers need to be more flexible in Ireland eg giving employees the freedom to come in between 7 and 10, leave between 4 and 6. Unpaid parental leave, that kind of stuff.

I went back full time after having my daughter when she was four months old, but my boyfriend went part time to three and a half days- 2 full days and 3 half days. His mother helped us out one day and the other 2.5 (1 full day and 3 half days) she went to the creche. I worked from home on her full day so she was dropped off at 7 and picked up at 3. It was confusing and exhausting but we were adamant we wanted her raised at home as much as there and I think we all benefitted. I will state that we can not afford for one of us not to work at all, nor do we think it would be beneficial to our family.

Things are slightly different now that she's a toddler, she loves the place. Nana had a hip replacement in June so has been out of action for a while. We're using all the unused hours we had over the last couple of years until she's ready to have her for a day again. My boyfriend has a new job so works 4 and a half days so he has one afternoon a week with her. I work 4 days but 1 from home so she's in the creche from half 8 to 4 that day now. I no longer feel guilty if i make an appointment to get my hair cut or whatever and she has to stay there a half an hour longer because she's with her friends, she loves the staff, and she can tell me all about her day when she gets home.

Is it possible to watch it overseas? Having said that I don't know if I should, might be too upsetting

Lillyfae

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Anne Davy said it herself from what I remember.
You lie to the parents and tell them everything was great. ''Wow you built bricks/etc'' was something she said.

What a disgusting woman. Prison would be too good for her, but I hope to christ there will be a prosecution.

Beechwoodspark

Lillyfae wrote: »

What a disgusting woman. Prison would be too good for her, but I hope to christ there will be a prosecution.

Irish times - her legal team say she clearly didn’t mean that seriously.

And also , something about her instructing staff not to make eye contact with the children in her “care”.

This aul wan would’ve have done well as a supervisor at auschwitz

iamwhoiam

The programme was absolutely shocking. I hope Anne Davey is reporting to the Gardaí for child abuse . My heart broke for the babies and little kids and their parents watching it . Nothing excuses it , it was abuse and terror


But can I just speak out in defence of care workers , there are some great creches out there and some fantastic child care workers . They are underpaid and overworked yet can give good quality care .
I used to pick up a grandchild who went one day a week to a creche . We could walk in ( with a code for the door ) anytime . The kids would be out in the garden playing with carers , singing songs or doing yoga . The carers would often sit and plait girls hair or do face paints or build lego . You would see another holding a baby on their hip while they danced with toddlers

This programme was about one horrific creche and in all fairness not indicative of them all .