RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

lawred2

retro:electro wrote: »

I’m not a violent person, have never raised a hand to anyone in my life but Jesus. If that was one of my nieces that bitch was slam dunking into a cot I wouldn’t be responsible for my actions. If she gets away with this it’s an absolute crying shame. Devastated for the little babies and their parents watching that.

Haven't seen it - don't want to. My stomach goes watching that sort of cruelty.

There'll be no follow up action no doubt - the Irish state seems to regard child cruelty akin to animal cruelty.

faceman

Pretty shocking show. LOL at the clowns on this thread trying to put blame on parents.

Here’s the thing though. It’s easy to pounce on the owner as the villain here. She is a the lowest form of life but she is only one player here. Tulsa and the state have failed on a higher level. How was this person able to run numerous childcare facilities with such serious breaches and prior charges already there?

Why does it take an RTE programme to do the job of Tulsa?

There should be a series of resignations and/or dismissals at Tulsa immediately.
Prison term for that owner.
State should take over running of those crèches in the interim as they fall into the hands of CAB until new owners can be found.

I noted that on Twitter that a lot of people were taking about how the show doesn’t depict all crèches etc etc. And that’s fine, well run crèches have nothing to worry about.

However there are well known crèche chains in the country that do their best yet have issues with high staff turnover which can only have a negative impact on childcare. It’s not as serious as the tv show highlighted but it’s not a good ‘norm’ to be in.

A major overhaul of childcare in Ireland needs to be carried out. An assembly comprised of professionals and parents should form part of the reform board

After seeing the disgraceful hatchet job done by RTÉ Investigates on the greyhound industry, I’d not take much of this too seriously.
Working mothers already have enough guilty feelings having to rely on strangers to care for their children without programs like this heaping more on them with their sensationalist output.

Liamo08

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Saw a few mins last night. The bit about watering down the milk etc.

Made me realise they were running the place purely with one aim - profiteering.

Does anyone know

Was this crèche cheaper than others in competition with it?

If so, how much was the saving by going with this crèche?

My eldest son was in one of the creches until recently - the only branch not featured on the show last night. And my youngest son was due to start in the baby room in Tolka earlier in the summer but thankfully that never happened.



The rates are similar to other creches in the area and I can assure everyone it's not cheap. Also I've seen a few people wondering how the parents didn't spot the issues, from my own experience I used to meet Anne every morning as she would open the branch that my son attended. She was nice as pie full of chat and playing with the kids etc. having watched the part last night where she spoke about lying on the activity sheets in order to keep parents happy this puts those early mornings into context.



One other point worth noting is that the largest creche in Drumcondra (And the one my son was going to at the time) was closed and knocked down two years ago so a LIDL could be built, there was no alternative facility built apart from the new Hyde and Seek in Glasnevin. This has put huge pressure on parents in the area to find a creche and the options are very limited.

BarryD2

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

When I saw that I wondered how the kids had the time to wreck the room. And maybe if they were building bricks like she was going to tell the parents, they wouldn't have wrecked it. They're small kids, she's treating them like 8 year olds. They didn't deliberately mess the place up. Yet there she was giving them a right b*locking.

Well another way of looking at this is that it is 'ok' if your own child cries or if you as a parent gets frustrated and shout at your own child (not ideal but people expect it and accept it)............ but we then expect a different set of standards from creches and child minders who look after other peoples children. No doubt this place was a bit dodgy but it's likely that much of the time things were going grand but that the programme editors have chosen the more damning episodes. People are human at end of the day, parents and child minders. So it's hard to cast judgement?

InTheShadows

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

It’s like something out of Romania

Bit rich coming from an Irish person no? Our track record with children speaks for itself.

Limpy

There's plenty of hyperbole around this. How long was your one filming. I'm sure you could pick a 10 second clip from 8 hours of any creche and it will look bad. Add a few consultants to tell people what to think before and after the footage. Use a few buzzwords and you have a lovely documentary.

Many parents will be discussion this now while 2 year old fintan eats his Happy Meal watching YouTube on his tablet!!

InTheShadows

Deleted User wrote: »

After seeing the disgraceful hatchet job done by RTÉ Investigates on the greyhound industry, I’d not take much of this too seriously.
Working mothers already have enough guilty feelings having to rely on strangers to care for their children without programs like this heaping more on them with their sensationalist output.

Yeah right let's just bury our problems. :rolleyes:

InTheShadows

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The programme was absolutely shocking. I hope Anne Davey is reporting to the Gardaí for child abuse . My heart broke for the babies and little kids and their parents watching it . Nothing excuses it , it was abuse and terror


But can I just speak out in defence of care workers , there are some great creches out there and some fantastic child care workers . They are underpaid and overworked yet can give good quality care .
I used to pick up a grandchild who went one day a week to a creche . We could walk in ( with a code for the door ) anytime . The kids would be out in the garden playing with carers , singing songs or doing yoga . The carers would often sit and plait girls hair or do face paints or build lego . You would see another holding a baby on their hip while they danced with toddlers

This programme was about one horrific creche and in all fairness not indicative of them all .

If you think these issues are confined to one creche you are deluded.

Hannibal_Smith

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well another way of looking at this is that it is 'ok' if your own child cries or if you as a parent gets frustrated and shout at your own child (not ideal but people expect it and accept it)............ but we then expect a different set of standards from creches and child minders who look after other peoples children. No doubt this place was a bit dodgy but it's likely that much of the time things were going grand but that the programme editors have chosen the more damning episodes. People are human at end of the day, parents and child minders. So it's hard to cast judgement?

I don't have ANY training in child care. None what's ever. I would think part of the education is teaching child care workers tools on how to deal with children who misbehave? Not that I think these young kids did misbehave. I don't remember shouting at my 1 year olds when they spilled the pots out on to the floor, what would be the point?

Cunning Stunt

When the jaysus are they going to arrest her??!!

lawred2

faceman wrote: »

Pretty shocking show. LOL at the clowns on this thread trying to put blame on parents.

Here’s the thing though. It’s easy to pounce on the owner as the villain here. She is a the lowest form of life but she is only one player here. Tulsa and the state have failed on a higher level. How was this person able to run numerous childcare facilities with such serious breaches and prior charges already there?

Why does it take an RTE programme to do the job of Tulsa?

There should be a series of resignations and/or dismissals at Tulsa immediately.
Prison term for that owner.
State should take over running of those crèches in the interim as they fall into the hands of CAB until new owners can be found.

I noted that on Twitter that a lot of people were taking about how the show doesn’t depict all crèches etc etc. And that’s fine, well run crèches have nothing to worry about.

However there are well known crèche chains in the country that do their best yet have issues with high staff turnover which can only have a negative impact on childcare. It’s not as serious as the tv show highlighted but it’s not a good ‘norm’ to be in.

A major overhaul of childcare in Ireland needs to be carried out. An assembly comprised of progressional sand parents should form part of the reform board

it's the same lad all the time on these similarly themed threads.. lamenting modern Ireland and the 'breakdown' of the family unit. Fairly sure he's an Iona plant. Every opportunity to pontificate and criticise parents for having the temerity of going out to work. Also probably motivated by some inner dislike of women leaving the kitchen sink.

As for Tusla - there will be hand wringing, there will be PR statements of 'deep concern', there will be 'internal investigations', 'internal reviews', some scapegoating and then a lengthy period of.... silence as the political appointees take off to their holidays in the south of France.

tjhook

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

When the jaysus are they going to arrest her??!!

If she's been paying taxes correctly (and PRSI on behalf of employees), she'll be fine. A slap on the wrist at most.



This state lets most things blow over, but not anything that threatens the gravy train.

Feisar

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Imagine me writing Female builders here.............................

Imagine seeing a female builder!

Well I have seen two in the past 15 years on sites.

iamwhoiam

InTheShadows wrote: »

If you think these issues are confined to one creche you are deluded.

Did I say it was confined to one creche ? I said it was not indicitive of all creches

Feisar

Can we get down to brass tacks here.

Rules state a 1:3 ratio of minders to babies.

I googled average prices of full time baby care, it's €191/week.

So 191x3= €573.

average creche worker pay (also from google) = €9.87x40= €394

So €179 left for employers PRSI, insurance, building rates, pay the company accountant, keep the lights/heat on and turn a profit.

The numbers simply don't add up.

hognef

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, my point is that what you think should be people’s aspirations, isn’t shared by over 455,000 women in Ireland today, and you’re right, it is mostly women who aspire to care for their own children as opposed to placing their children in childcare facilities, 98% of parents who choose to care for their own children are women in fact.

Other people have other aspirations for themselves and part of achieving those aspirations means for them that they are willing to place their children in childcare facilities which are a business, and business owners regard them as a business, specifically run with the intent of making as much profit from the business as possible, because that is what they ‘aspire’ to.

The idea that anyone “has no choice in the matter” or “has very little choice in the matter” when it comes to the care of their children simply isn’t borne out by the evidence that in fact it is possible to have children and care for their own children themselves as opposed to paying eye-watering childcare facilities which by the nature of their business model aren’t going to be able to provide the same standards of care as the parents themselves.

That’s a choice parents make themselves, for themselves, and suggestions that they should aspire to what you think they should aspire to are precisely why some parents feel that’s what they have to aspire to, in spite of the potentially adverse consequences for their children, which is why we end up with programmes like the one tonight investigating dire standards of “care” in childcare facilities. The franchise shown on the programme tonight is only one of many substandard childcare facilities dotted up and down the country which are charging parents willing to pay it an arm and a leg to treat their children like shìte.


Aspirations? More like notions tbh.

As has been said by others already, in other countries it's perfectly possible for both father and mother to have careers while also leaving their children in safe and capable hands during the day. It's perfectly possible also in Ireland. I'm sure most crèches are absolutely fine, though there are certainly things that can and should be improved.

Hannibal_Smith

Feisar wrote: »

Can we get down to brass tacks here.

Rules state a 1:3 ratio of minders to babies.

I googled average prices of full time baby care, it's €191/week.

So 191x3= €573.

average creche worker pay (also from google) = €9.87x40= €394

So €179 left for employers PRSI, insurance, building rates, pay the company accountant, keep the lights/heat on and turn a profit.

The numbers simply don't add up.

They said that this woman had a profit of 2 million in the last 5 or so years. I don't know whether that was gross or net mind you and they also got funding from the state.

Feisar

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

They said that this woman had a profit of 2 million in the last 5 or so years. I don't know whether that was gross or net mind you and they also got funding from the state.

Well apparently she had 20:1!!!

I'm not trying to make a huge point in her defense simply highlighting the basic economics.

Hannibal_Smith

Feisar wrote: »

Well apparently she had 20:1!!!

I'm not trying to make a huge point in her defense simply highlighting the basic economics.

There is some information here about her profits. I think it said in the show last night that this was after wages, but Im not 100 % on that.

Any how the link below details staff losses between 2018 and 2019. She was making a nice profit, with insufficient staff and overcrowding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-creche-chain-owner-steps-away-from-childcare-duties-1.3965889

Utter Consternation

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

There is some information here about her profits. I think it said in the show last night that this was after wages, but Im not 100 % on that.

Any how the link below details staff losses between 2018 and 2019. She was making a nice profit, with insufficient staff and overcrowding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-creche-chain-owner-steps-away-from-childcare-duties-1.3965889

They did say that was profit after wages.

Boggles

Profit after wages is an arbitrary bullshít number.

lawlolawl

I find it odd that people are surprised that this business is run like a business.

It's terrible but these people aren't your friends. You are paying them for a service and they will try to provide it in the cheapest, leanest way possible to turn maximum profit.

Your child is € signs to them. Nothing more.

There needs to be more regulation and enforcement of regulation, but, as per usual in this country it'll be half arsed.

Boggles

Stephen15 wrote: »

There you go this is a by product of the feminist movement promoting women to go out work instead of raising children to benefit international finace capitalism. All part of a globalist movement which puts children last hardly a surprise this is apparently what the people want at least according to the feminists and globalists.

1950 just rang, they want you back Stephen.

retro:electro

Using children to make profits. That’s all she cares about. She said as much herself when she said “this is a business, not a babysitting service”. How on Earth a child is meant to sleep when she’s barging in the room with her shrill voice mouthing off orders and holding them down to get them to sleep. It’s important to remember though that this wasn’t an expose on all crèches, and so absolute statements on the prioritisation of child welfare in relation to working parents who have to work in order to make ends meet is just unfair. The way things are in Ireland at the moment means a family surviving on one wage is extremely difficult.

What needs to change here is parents need to be informed when there are charges pending against an organisation for breaches. Reports are published on Tusla website after the fact but that’s no use to the thousands of parents dropping their kids to crèche this morning with a knot in their stomach. Crèches are also notified about upcoming Tusla inspections which I think needs to change too. They need to operate to a standard as if a social worker could walk in the door any second.

Neyite

Feisar wrote: »

Can we get down to brass tacks here.

Rules state a 1:3 ratio of minders to babies.

I googled average prices of full time baby care, it's €191/week.

So 191x3= €573.

average creche worker pay (also from google) = €9.87x40= €394

So €179 left for employers PRSI, insurance, building rates, pay the company accountant, keep the lights/heat on and turn a profit.

The numbers simply don't add up.

I think your estimated weekly rate might be a little on the low side. At 11 months I was paying just over 1k per month which went down once the baby turned 1 to about 960 (I can't remember the exact cost) That was in a regional city and I know that people in the Dublin area paid significantly more than I did due to increased running costs and also that creche's could charge extra because of the lack of spaces so parents had to pay to secure a spot for their child. I know people who paid €1200 a month for a baby spot.

But you've also got to factor in government subsidies and grants that the creche might get, along with the ECCE funding for older children.

I don't think any crèche can make a decent profit on the babies but the older children where the room ratios are different would more profitable. Afterschool for example has no upper limit on ratios- they can't because if they did have that then they would also have to bring ratios in school classrooms in line with childcare facilities and DoE won't open that can of worms.

Remember also that you have to sign up for either part-time set hours per week or full time. So if you are a shift worker and don't actually need your child in for the full 50hrs a week, your shift pattern might mean that you've no option to pay for full time even if you have some mornings/afternoons/midweek days off in the week. Afterschool care is the only slots I know that you can add ad-hoc days - but you also need to give them specific days that you will pay for regardless of whether or not you use them.

griffin100

My wife owns and operates creches and has done for almost 20 years. She was in tears watching last night. Yes it's a business but you still need to treat children with dignity and respect and to provide them with a safe environment.

The sector overall is in bad way. She's thinking about getting out at this stage.

The regulations that are in place for creches are quite stringent and if implemented properly do allow for the provision of a high quality service, but it's the oversight of implementation that is lacking. It can be a lottery as to how often your creche is audited by Tusla, and in my experience it can be well over a year. When the audits do happen they are thorough and the inspectors do go through everything in fine detail, but they are far too infrequent. In typical Irish fashion its enforcement rather than more regulations that are needed.

Some of the government schemes have been good for the sector (e.g. capital grants) but some are damaging. For example the free childcare ECCE places are welcome, but because of the rate paid per hr by the state and the staff:children ratios required by the legislation, you actually looses money on these places. You have to hope that the kids will use more hours than the state pays for but that's not always the case.

My wife operates a simple rule in all her creches to help install confidence in parents. When you come to collect your child you are allowed to walk unannounced down to the room in which they are located and walk in. The teacher / childcare assistant in that room gets no warning of your coming. If your creche makes you wait in the lobby whilst they go get your kid for you, you have a problem.

It's a business, but that doesn't mean that you can't provide the kids with a safe and welcoming environment. If your child screams the place down when you arrive at creche and refuses to enter then there may be issues - if they run on in smiling then that's a good sign.

asteroids over berlin

Neyite wrote: »

Feisar wrote: »

Can we get down to brass tacks here.

Rules state a 1:3 ratio of minders to babies.

I googled average prices of full time baby care, it's €191/week.

So 191x3= €573.

average creche worker pay (also from google) = €9.87x40= €394

So €179 left for employers PRSI, insurance, building rates, pay the company accountant, keep the lights/heat on and turn a profit.

The numbers simply don't add up.

I think your estimated weekly rate might be a little on the low side. At 11 months I was paying just over 1k per month which went down once the baby turned 1 to about 960 (I can't remember the exact cost) That was in a regional city and I know that people in the Dublin area paid significantly more than I did due to increased running costs and also that creche's could charge extra because of the lack of spaces so parents had to pay to secure a spot for their child. I know people who paid €1200 a month for a baby spot.

But you've also got to factor in government subsidies and grants that the creche might get, along with the ECCE funding for older children.

I don't think any crèche can make a decent profit on the babies but the older children where the room ratios are different would more profitable. Afterschool for example has no upper limit on ratios- they can't because if they did have that then they would also have to bring ratios in school classrooms in line with childcare facilities and DoE won't open that can of worms.

Remember also that you have to sign up for either part-time set hours per week or full time. So if you are a shift worker and don't actually need your child in for the full 50hrs a week, your shift pattern might mean that you've no option to pay for full time even if you have some mornings/afternoons/midweek days off in the week. Afterschool care is the only slots I know that you can add ad-hoc days - but you also need to give them specific days that you will pay for regardless of whether or not you use them.

Correct,, i know people paying circa 1k a month per child

Neyite

retro:electro wrote: »

They need to operate to a standard as if a social worker could walk in the door any second.

One of the reasons I picked the creche I did for my baby was that I happened to be passing and popped in to enquire about a place for him, and I was offered and went on a full tour there and then by the secretary of all the rooms.

That showed me that they had nothing to hide in their premises or practices. Each and every room you could see the children and babies contentedly playing. Just the happy vibe you got from the children and the staff was reassuring. Most of the staff had been there for a few years, so turnover was low, another good indicator of good practices. There were other things like I saw the dinners being dished up and it was easily as good as or better than I'd make at home and all freshly prepared on site by a qualified cook. It was a bit more expensive than the one up the road but when I compared all of those things it was worth the extra even though money was already tight due to the recession.

Feisar

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

Correct,, i know people paying circa 1k a month per child

I just ran a google search, it wasn't scientific.