RTÉ Investigates tonight (21:35): Crèches, Behind Closed Doors

Boggles

griffin100 wrote: »

If your creche makes you wait in the lobby whilst they go get your kid for you, you have a problem.

No you don't.

There is a myriad of reasons why some unvetted person isn't allowed walk freely around a creche.

LirW

I had my big one in Austria at a childminder and then in Kindergarten and we moved just before he started school.
Now my little one started crèche with 2 years and a bit, full-time because I'm going back to work.

Back in AT every form of childcare is state subsidised and nothing is run privately. If you want private you're usually very wealthy. Every other kindergarten, crèche and even childminder operates under government supervision or are semi-run by the government. While officially there are no heavily reduced fees for under 3 year olds the government chips in with around 50 or 60% to begin with. As far as I remembered I paid like 360 Euros for a full time place at a registered and vetted childminder and I needed it because I was 19 years old when I had him and just finished school and under no circumstances was quitting school an option.
When he turned 3 and started Kindergarten all parents undergo a financial assessment, because I was a single mother and earned under a certain threshold his full-time place was free.
All the Kindergartens are state-run and subsidised.
There are downsides like no flexibility in drop off and pick up times, the food is still as bad as I remember it from when I was a child. But since they're not run like private businesses they have to follow strict guidelines and have constant inspections.
Of course there are good ones and bad ones still but you're not breaking your back financially in order to go back to work.

Now I stayed at home for a bit over two years with the little one and it was driving me insane because it was incredibly isolating. Has nothing to do with not loving her but we live rural, there are very few ways to go and meet people and the people that would usually go there are on a different intellectual level, a bit clannish and interests simply don't go together. I don't have family or friends close by and it started to take a real toll on my mental health.

Let's be honest, a lot of stay-at-home parents have a decent enough social and support network, plenty activities around and this is a huge contributing factor that staying at home is enjoyable. Slash all of that and it's a different story. Being locked up at home is not fun and since money is naturally very carefully budgeted for on one income, there is only so much I can drive when the next bigger town is 25 minutes away and I have to factor in school runs too.

To sum it up, I'm not sure if the status quo with crèches as businesses is the way to go really. It's expensive, they set their own rates so every little way to subsidise can be counteracted with jacking up the prices. Childcare prices are a big factor for well educated people in deciding having children in the first place and we desperately need exactly those people to have children. All over Europe there are successful schemes in place on how to run affordable childcare with educational value, why can't this be done in Ireland? For the amount of tax the average earner pays they get very little in return and as it stands having kids is pretty damn unattractive.

techdiver

What is the solution to the broken system we have? Many have pointed to the Scandinavian model which would require massive increases in taxation to achieve, not to mention our country's history of complete inability to self manage to a proper level. Will the people accept these increased level of tax in order to properly fund child care. We always hear that people don't want to fund the "lifestyle choice" of other who have children, despite the fact that these same people will require the next generation of tax payer to fund their retirement in the future.

You can approach the issue from 2 sides.

1. Properly fund child care. I.E. State run child care.
2. Assist parent who want/choose to stay at home and raise their kids.

1. Is pretty much summed up above. It will require extra taxation, which will be a difficult sell. It needs a serious PR push to get acceptance from the wider population.

2. Can easily be achieved by a number of measures, not least rolling back the disastrous "Tax Individualisation" that was brought in by Charlie McCreevy in 2000. For those of you unaware of what tax individualisation was, it was the removal of full transferrable standard rate cut off bands between spouses. Previously a couple could share the combined standard rate cut off point, which meant for a single income family the rate at which you entered the higher rate of tax was the combination of both the standard rate cut off point of the couple, i.e. double a single person. The change was dressed up as a way of promoting the entrance of women into work. The reality is it basically penalised those who did not. The statistics say it worked, but statistics can be misleading. The net result is families where one parent chooses to stay at home to raise children lose out significantly in the tax system compared to those who did they same prior to 2000.

I believe a combination of both approaches will help, but I don't see either being achieved. We will be outraged about this for a while and then it will be forgotten about until the next revelation down the road.

Ush1

Throwing more money at something (i.e. taxes) doesn't mean better service. Separate the two things.

GreeBo

Feisar wrote: »

Well apparently she had 20:1!!!

I'm not trying to make a huge point in her defense simply highlighting the basic economics.

its 1:3 up to 12 months, after that its 1 : 6.

This is why lots of creches have stopped taking kids under 1 as its hard to make money.

GreeBo

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

Correct,, i know people paying circa 1k a month per child

€1280 in South Dublin for me.

GreeBo

Boggles wrote: »

No you don't.

There is a myriad of reasons why some unvetted person isn't allowed walk freely around a creche.

A parent/guardian of a child is *not* some unvetted person and you should absolutely be able to go and see/collect your child at any time.

Collecting a child is not "walking freely around a creche".

Most creches have controlled access to the various rooms and you are only given access as a parent.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Lots of fundamental issues have contributed to this type of situation, including large numbers of parents who would like to stay at home with their children being forced for economic reasons to remain in the workforce. This has lead to a hugely increased demand for full time childcare and cute business people have moved into that industry, running creches in the same way they'd run any other profit making organisation, making money becoming the sole focus of the operation at the expense of appropriate child:carer ratios, adherence to health and safety regulations and employment of properly trained staff.

The very clear lack of oversight by Tusla of what is going on, who is operating these creches, whether issues raised following checks have been followed up on, and whether all staff have been fully vetted before being employed is another huge issue.

As long as we have a poorly regulated child care industry and a situation where it is becoming less and less viable for one parent to stay at home with pre school children, there will continue to be badly run creches remaining under the radar and periodic apologies and empty reassurances from Tusla following the latest revelation.

LirW

It's going to be a hard sell to people that pay full price in crèche to increase their taxes because even though they carry the country financially, they get no return. They still have to pay for every GP and A&E visit, if they aren't paying a big premium they have to use a vastly dysfunctional health care system, the roads are bad, public transport is an expensive joke, there is no proper cycling infrastructure, their insurances go up every year even though they played by the rules. The USC that was planned as a temporary emergency tax is still in place and wasn't it put up just recently? Sugar tax because some people aren't capable of looking after themselves, more carbon tax where the people commuting to work will pay the most for it.
3 billion for a national broadband plan where experts have doubt about the success of it.

The working Joe has to put the shilling out for all of it and gets very grim service in return. Plus pays a second mortgage for childcare. Good luck trying to sell that.

LirW

I also think that big companies miss a huge opportunity with the lack of in-house crèches. I've seen it successfully before, the rates are slightly discounted, there is an option to have lunch with your child in a child friendly area if you wish and you come in and go at the same time.
This makes a big difference on the morale of your staff, they tend to stay with you for longer because one crucial thing for families is easier resolved and it looks like you care about your working bees.
It's a worthwhile investment for companies that rely on highly qualified and specialised staff.

Boggles

GreeBo wrote: »

A parent/guardian of a child is some unvetted person and you should absolutely be able to go and see/collect your child at any time.

Yeah, that's what I said.

GreeBo wrote: »

Most creches have controlled access to the various rooms and you are only given access as a parent.

I don't know if they do or they don't and I suspect neither do you.

But the point remains, if a facilities policy is to hand the child to you that does not 100% mean there is a problem.

Tombo2001

Anyone else find it a bit bizarre that RTE sent in an undercover team to investigate a single creche?

Is that not a bit OTT -

I must admit I didnt watch the show - but the brief snippets I saw coming out of it didnt show me anything I'd consider an outrageous breach.

Like - FFS - milk was diluted with water...... sorry but this is no big deal.

I have no doubt, moreover that once RTE pulls the trigger and decides to send in the 'undercovers' that they have to justify the expense and 'uncover' some scandal.....but I didnt particularly see it here.

Kids slept on bouncers? Is that all you've got, to warrant the level of national media attention this is getting?

In the meantime - creches will get more and more paranoid about the rules and costs go ever higher......

The Garda vetting thing - I get it. But in defence, these places can suffer death by bureacracy and garda vetting can take a long long long time to process.

fqollere

LirW wrote: »

I also think that big companies miss a huge opportunity with the lack of in-house crèches. I've seen it successfully before, the rates are slightly discounted, there is an option to have lunch with your child in a child friendly area if you wish and you come in and go at the same time.
This makes a big difference on the morale of your staff, they tend to stay with you for longer because one crucial thing for families is easier resolved and it looks like you care about your working bees.
It's a worthwhile investment for companies that rely on highly qualified and specialised staff.

+1

The FSAI inspection system might work better for these places
Improvement orders and closure and everything on the website

Gavin "shels"

tigger123 wrote: »

With house prices and rents, particularly in Dublin, a lot of famalies have no choice; both of them need to work in order to make ends meet.

I was shocked by what i saw last night. But there are fantastic childcare facilities and childcare workers out there. People with no experience of the sector shouldn't assume that this is the norm.

Agree on the fantastic facilities & workers but it won't be like that for much longer - my fiancee had worked in childcare for 8 years and has recently completely changed careers... being paid €12 an hour (with 8 years experience) was not worth it anymore. She loved her job for the most part but financially it wasn't feasible anymore.

Gavin "shels"

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The Garda vetting thing - I get it. But in defence, these places can suffer death by bureacracy and garda vetting can take a long long long time to process.

Tbf Garda Vetting is needed for any interaction with children be you a football coach, a childcare worker, etc... It's the norm and rightly so.

Tombo2001

Gavin shels wrote: »

Tbf Garda Vetting is needed for any interaction with children be you a football coach, a childcare worker, etc... It's the norm and rightly so.

Yes that's fine in theory.

In practice, it takes an age to sort out.

And there are sports clubs up and down the length of the country who say - fine, come on board now and also get your garda vetting sorted.

Because the alternative is to say - yes we need you here now; but you aren't garda vetted - it will take 3 months to organise, and in the meantime we are understaffed.

Stephen15

Boggles wrote: »

1950 just rang, they want you back Stephen.

I honestly could not care less if you believe my views are backward or not. Fact is parents are putting they're careers before raising their children maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place if they are willing to put their children in a profit making business as they value their career more.

Tombo2001

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly could not care less if you believe my views are backward or not. Fact is parents are putting they're careers before raising their children maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place if they are willing to put their children in a profit making business as they value their career more.

And by parents you mean mothers?

Boggles

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly could not care less if you believe my views are backward or not.

They are backward Stephen. Extremely.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Fact is parents are putting they're careers before raising their children maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place if they are willing to put their children in a profit making business as they value their career more.

We need children Stephen, they are the ones who will be paying for you when you get old.

LirW

Gavin "shels" wrote: »

Agree on the fantastic facilities & workers but it won't be like that for much longer - my fiancee had worked in childcare for 8 years and has recently completely changed careers... being paid €12 an hour (with 8 years experience) was not worth it anymore. She loved her job for the most part but financially it wasn't feasible anymore.

Such a bug bear of mine! Even very experienced staff gets paid very little, third level qualification doesn't automatically get you better pay than that. Best plan of action is to work on childcare for solid experience and there are options of earning a degree on the way if you're willing to work hard and then move on to something that pays better like working with children in a social care setting.
It's sad in a way that any sort of care work is valued quite little and paid so badly. I know people that get so much joy out of it, it's demanding and you need to be well qualified for it.

circadian

Stephen15 wrote: »

There you go this is a by product of the feminist movement promoting women to go out work instead of raising children to benefit international finace capitalism. All part of a globalist movement which puts children last hardly a surprise this is apparently what the people want at least according to the feminists and globalists.

Ah yes, it's the wimmins fault. Havin' babies and expecting to have the dignity of a meaningful career afterwards. How dare they!

Tombo2001

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly could not care less if you believe my views are backward or not. Fact is parents are putting they're careers before raising their children maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place if they are willing to put their children in a profit making business as they value their career more.

Another point

Whats wrong with it being a 'profit making business'.....

Should it not be a 'profit making business' - you want them to run a loss, as well provide a good service?

Stephen15

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And by parents you mean mothers?

Well generally women are better at looking after children than men.

LirW

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well generally women are better at looking after children than men.

It's 2019, how about it gets socially acceptable that a dad looking after their own children isn't weird, they can enjoy it, they're not pedophiles by default and maybe should be widely encouraged to pull their bloody weight when it comes to childcare?
Even though we're striving for equality it's still the woman that is under a lot of social pressure to stay at home for years, if she feels otherwise she's a bad person while fathers get off the hook without an eyelid batted because "ah shur the wife is better with kids". Why is a man having children when he doesn't want to pull his weight looking after them?

Tombo2001

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well generally women are better at looking after children than men.

OKEYDOKES.

Its up to each individual whether they want to give this any more oxygen.

Boggles

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest Stephen is single.

Tombo2001

LirW wrote: »

It's 2019, how about it gets socially acceptable that a dad looking after their own children isn't weird, they can enjoy it, they're not pedophiles by default and maybe should be widely encouraged to pull their bloody weight when it comes to childcare?
Even though we're striving for equality it's still the woman that is under a lot of social pressure to stay at home for years, if she feels otherwise she's a bad person while fathers get off the hook without an eyelid batted because "ah shur the wife is better with kids". Why is a man having children when he doesn't want to pull his weight looking after them?

LOGIC will not apply in this discussion.

Just sayin'.....

PCros

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly could not care less if you believe my views are backward or not. Fact is parents are putting they're careers before raising their children maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place if they are willing to put their children in a profit making business as they value their career more.

So parents should not work and instead collect Jobseekers allowance until their kids are 18?

Amazing logic.

Tombo2001

Can we get the discussion back onto the rails of the real world please.

Remember that one person cant derail it by themselves, it only works if everyone else follows.....

superleedsdub

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yes that's fine in theory.

In practice, it takes an age to sort out.

And there are sports clubs up and down the length of the country who say - fine, come on board now and also get your garda vetting sorted.

Because the alternative is to say - yes we need you here now; but you aren't garda vetted - it will take 3 months to organise, and in the meantime we are understaffed.

It takes 2-2.5 weeks to get Garda vetted, I have been vetted 3 times in the last 2 years for volunteering with Age action, hosting students and with the FAI as a football coach.