Spiral out - keep going

Swashbuckler

Treviso wrote: »

Fri 2nd 12x12" hill sprints, 25' wu/cd - 8:12avg
Wore the 4% for this. They now serve me no purpose for sessions or races so will take the benefits of them for hill sprints. Nearly 200 miles on them so should give me another few months of wear

Five days on and it still hurts when I think about this :D

Treviso

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Five days on and it still hurts when I think about this :D

Still a great shoe but better options out there now. Did my first marathon, first sub 20 5k and still feel great running in them. But for sessions, even the Nike Tempos are faster these days

They would be ideal for moderate long tempo runs but I don't do any of them anymore. So I'd rather put them to some use, than storing them away in case some suitable run crops up

healy1835

I've never really found much of a difference between the 4% and Next% tbh. The OG's sole not quite as durable, but I'd happily wear a new pair of 4% in place of the Next% and not be worried about losing anything in the process.

skyblue46

healy1835 wrote: »

I've never really found much of a difference between the 4% and Next% tbh. The OG's sole not quite as durable, but I'd happily wear a new pair of 4% in place of the Next% and not be worried about losing anything in the process.

Wasn't it true that they were called Next% because after testing they couldn't reach a 5% improvement over the baseline used in naming the 4%?

Treviso

Tues 6th - 7m easy, 8:32avg grass
Thurs 8th - 7m easy, 8:28avg grass
Fri 9th - 12x12" hill sprints, 8:17avg
Sat 19th - 7m easy, 8:28 grass

Wed 7th, 10'@5:55,5min rec,5x1' on/off,5min rec, 10'@5:55,5min rec,5x1' on/off, 10'@5:55, 15'WU/CD
First look at this session and first thought was the coach did a double paste on the 10'@5:55 part. Second glance, I noticed the lack of 5min easy after the second set of 5x1's. I did check previous sessions of other athletes to confirm that this was indeed correct

Did the 15' min warmup in the Invincibles before switching to the Next%. First 10 mins goes ok, probably started too fast and had to slow myself for the last 3 mins 5:55. Recovered ok and as a result the first couple of reps for the 5x1' were probably too fast 5:22,5:15,5:27,5:32,5:37.

Second 10' rep started fast again but was feeling strong for it. My progress was slowed when a toddler ran across across the path, forcing me to check and go around the chasing mother. Was able to recover 5:54. Second set of 5x1' were in a dodgy GPS part of the greenway so can't be sure if they are accurate or I was suffering 5:40,5:59,5:39,5:28,5:36

This is where it got really difficult. with just a minute recovery, I was into my final 10 min rep. First 5 minutes were with the wind and I just about sub 6 minute pace. Had no choice but to turn and finish into the wind. My legs had nothing left and my form went out the window as I struggled to the finish 6:04. Trudged around for the 15' cooldown.

Sun 11th, 6m@6:10, 4m wu/cd
Start of the new cycle of mileage at the increased 6:10 pace. Was confident for the 6 mile effort but unsure of the upcoming 8 and 10 miles. Again wore the Next%. Started off strong and settled into a 6:03 first mile. I was feeling ok as well. Next mile was a 6:02 and everything was rosy. Had a turnaround here so the next 2 would be into the wind. Was still ok for the 3rd mile, 6:04, partly due to passing some other runners which always results in false speed.

Running into the wind eventually took it's toll and next mile was a 6:10. Still into the wind and with a turn, the next mile was a 6:08. Last mile was a mixed bag but found that I finished quite strong 6:05 to give a 6:06avg for the 6. Recovered quickly for the cooldown.

Weekly mileage - 57 miles
YTD - 772

As those of you who follow the shoe thread, I was able to order a pair of the new Asics MetaSpeed Sky after some initial worry about the order. Got my shipping confirmation but won't be certain about it until they are actually in my hands. They better live up to their reviews now.

They will be nicknamed the MetaSpeed Skyblue46s when they arrive :p

skyblue46

You fookin langer boy!

Dubh Geannain

That Wednesday session looked damn tough.

Treviso

Tues 13th - 7m easy, 8:25avg grass

Wed 14th - 10x3'@10mile pace, 35sec recoveries, 15' wu/cd
All the focus was on the 35sec recoveries and how I would be able to get through it. Breaking it down though, it was "only" going to be 30min work at 10 mile pace (5:55). I had done 20mins in one go the previous week. It turned out to be a good session for me, short and fast. Pace in the 3 mins felt comfortable at 5:55 and was able to top up the breath during the 35 seconds recoveries (which I was able to jog instead of walking). With 3 reps to go I pushed the pace to 10k pace (5:45). Reps were 5:55, 5:56, 5:49, 5:56, 5:52, 5:52, 5:51, 5:50, 5:46, 5:40
Turned out to be roughly a 10x800m with 35sec rec session. Legs felt fresh during the cooldown.

Thurs 15th - 7m easy, 8:12avg grass. last mile and a half barefoot. Been a while since I've been able to run barefoot without freaking people out. Felt good. Legs were super fresh even after the previous day's session

Fri 16th - 12x12" hill sprints, 25' wu/cd Legs felt great again, deja vu hill session

Sat 17th - 7m easy, 8:12avg grass. last 1.5 miles barefoot again

Sun 18th - 8m@6:10, 3m wu/cd
Plan had this at 4m@6:15 4m@6:10 but felt I could do the 8 at 6:10 pace. Got my MetaSpeed SkyBlue46 shoes during the week so wanted to try them out for this session. All was good during the 3 mile warmup, switched into the new shoes and started on the 8 fast miles. The Metas felt quite firm, not as bouncy as Nike's super shoes but read that they would come good at faster paces. First couple hundred of metres saw the usual too fast pace but it settled into a 6:15 pace a lot earlier than normal. Almost straight away I needed to put the work in to keep up the pace, whereas with the NEXT%s it felt a lot easier the previous week. First mile was a 6:08 but didn't feel easy.

Thought that maybe it was just the first mile and they would loosen out. The second mile felt better, was doing a more naturally stride and getting into a rhythm 6:12. Third mile though and the pace started to decrease. Told myself to up the effort again, a lot sooner than I would have to normally. Third mile was a 6:14 and the fourth, with a steep footbridge, 6:19. Watch said 6:14avg so needed to up it again, getting like a TT now. Next miles were on time 6:10, 6:10. 2 miles left but into the wind. The marina straight never felt so long and tried my best to push on but second last mile was a 6:16. Was able to finish with a fast mile 6:02 to finish with a 6:12 avg for the 8

So the Metas are back in their Asics box, waiting to be sent back tomorrow. Why you ask? Well, they are not a bad shoe, legs feel quite good after the run today but I've no doubt that if I had the NEXT% on today I would have easily hit the 6:10 average for the 8. I actually feel if I had them on and put in that effort, I would've gone closer to 6 min pace. The Meta Skys feel very similar to Nikes Zoom Fly 3s, solid shoe but doesn't give you the same bounce or zip as the NEXT% or Alphas

So the choice was to either keep the Metas or swap them for the new NEXT% v2 - easy decision.

Weekly mileage - 52 miles
YTD - 824

skyblue46

Very interesting...and at odds with many of the reviews but let's face it reviews are a personal opinion too. I think I'll plough ahead and try to get them when the next batch are released. I kinda like the fact that you say they are not as soft or squishy as the Next%. Cheers for the feedback

OOnegative

Genuine question, but would you be hitting the paces you are without the aid of carbon plated shoes? Do you use them on every run you do?

Treviso

skyblue46 wrote: »

Very interesting...and at odds with many of the reviews but let's face it reviews are a personal opinion too. I think I'll plough ahead and try to get them when the next batch are released. I kinda like the fact that you say they are not as soft or squishy as the Next%. Cheers for the feedback

It may just be that they don't suit my running style as much as Nikes, maybe it's all psychological and I'm brainwashed by their marketing. Who knows

OOnegative wrote: »

Genuine question, but would you be hitting the paces you are without the aid of carbon plated shoes? Do you use them on every run you do?

Thanks for the question B and I'll try to answer as honest as I can
I never used to run with carbon plated shoes and still wear the Nike Tempos at times. Made the decision a couple of weeks ago to run these sessions in those shoes, for two reasons:
1. Paces: Yes I can run quicker in them but they'll indicate where I'm currently at in terms of race pace. In a weird way, it'll like before all of these carbon plated shoes were around (not that I know what that was like). Training pace only will dictate race pace - no other factors involved
2. Recovery: Legs certainly are fresher after running in those shoes - which helps avoiding injuries (along with grass running)
I've only been running for 2 and a half years which was the start of the VF craze. Its part and parcel of running for me, I've never experienced racing flat shoes nor would I want to. I don't consider them cheat shoes, just another bit of kit along with everything else. So it's not as big as a decision for me as it might be for someone who has been running longer

OOnegative

I wasn’t questioning your fitness first and foremost, I own one pair of “cheat shoes” let’s call them but genuinely don’t get the hype. Look I hate U2 to!!

Great to see such improvements T in just 2.5 years, keep it up.

zico10

OOnegative wrote: »

Genuine question, but would you be hitting the paces you are without the aid of carbon plated shoes? Do you use them on every run you do?

I know nothing about Treviso, but I’m guessing he wouldn’t be hitting the paces he is (no offence), without the aid of carbon plated shoes. The huge chunks of time being taken off world records on the road recently, is all the proof you should need that these shoes help people run faster.

I didn’t get my hands on carbon fibre soled shoes until 2019. Now I own five pairs, and generally wear one of the pairs for any run of consequence. I don’t think I’ve yet hit my form of 2018, but I’m getting there. I’ve no doubt the improvements in running shoes are helping me get there quicker. But so what? The shoes are here to stay. Either buy expensive runners utilising the latest technology, or don’t. Then once you’ve bought them, either wear them, or don’t. After that, I think people just need to stop going on about them. The horse has bolted, and nobody will be questioning the fairness of carbon plated shoes in 10 years.

skyblue46

zico10 wrote: »

I know nothing about Treviso, but I’m guessing he wouldn’t be hitting the paces he is (no offence), without the aid of carbon plated shoes. The huge chunks of time being taken off world records on the road recently, is all the proof you should need that these shoes help people run faster.

I didn’t get my hands on carbon fibre soled shoes until 2019. Now I own five pairs, and generally wear one of the pairs for any run of consequence. I don’t think I’ve yet hit my form of 2018, but I’m getting there. I’ve no doubt the improvements in running shoes are helping me get there quicker. But so what? The shoes are here to stay. Either buy expensive runners utilising the latest technology, or don’t. Then once you’ve bought them, either wear them, or don’t. After that, I think people just need to stop going on about them. The horse has bolted, and nobody will be questioning the fairness of carbon plated shoes in 10 years.

There is a lot to agree with here. I listened to an Asics presentation explain that the learnings from their research into the Metaspeed Sky would be passed down to other shoes in the range and I have no doubt that the gap between super shoes and mid range shoes will narrow. At the same time I see so many people looking to buy shoes on a budget and never before has the difference between budget and premium be so great in performance terms. Hopefully it will settle down shortly

AuldManKing

I'd say he'd hit the paces, but with a bigger effort.
The benefits are running faster AND recovery, but the session he had this week could have been completed with non carbon shoes.

I own 4 pairs of carbon (Or Nylon) plated shoes and consider these my session shoes.
No harm in that, its the same for most runners I would guess.

I actually don't even know what non plated shoes you'd wear for a session? Or why you'd avoid it if you own a few pairs.

shotgunmcos

Treviso, just curious about the Meta Sky. The geometry of the sky according to asics is more for the stride runner. Anything there?

Treviso

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Treviso, just curious about the Meta Sky. The geometry of the sky according to asics is more for the stride runner. Anything there?

I looked at the average stride length from this week's run, compared to last week. This week was 3 mile warmup, 8 miles tempo, 3 mile cool down. Last week was 4 mile warmup, 6 mile tempo, 4 mile cooldown.

You would think that the extra 2 mile tempo would lead to an increased average stride but they were roughly the same (1.15m to 1.13m). Unfortunately, my watch doesn't collect stride length over real time and I'm not sure if I can just split the tempo miles

shotgunmcos

Treviso wrote: »

I looked at the average stride length from this week's run, compared to last week. This week was 3 mile warmup, 8 miles tempo, 3 mile cool down. Last week was 4 mile warmup, 6 mile tempo, 4 mile cooldown.

You would think that the extra 2 mile tempo would lead to an increased average stride but they were roughly the same (1.15m to 1.13m). Unfortunately, my watch doesn't collect stride length over real time and I'm not sure if I can just split the tempo miles

Thats interesting in terms of use case. If your stride length didn't increase much then you certainly had a significantly faster cadence for your tempo. Likely you were on your forefoot?

Just for context, my easy/warm up stride would be about 1.25m and my tempo is 1.55m. I've tried 3 carbon/nylon plate shoes so far. VPN%, Speeds and Fuelcell TC. Next% aside, the shoes feel great at tempo, steady paces but I don't feel they have the pop at short intervals or strides. I actually prefer more road feel for short sharp stuff.

Swashbuckler

Interesting discussion on the carbon plated shoes. I've gone from being completely against, to being somewhat for them for racing only to now using them in training. I still haven't made the leap to wearing the full whack top shoes like the Next% in training but not far off (fuelcell TC being my session shoe of choice).

I've noticed a massive difference in effort levels for the carbon shoes when compared to the Adizero 4 for example. Also noticed a big difference in recovery. Really seems like a case of what zico said - the horse has bolted. And it's only going in one direction. In five years people ain't gonna be debating this. It will just be the norm to train in these.

Still can't accept the 4% for hill reps... Breaks my heart Treviso..... Still... Lol

Treviso

Another week done and dusted, fairly standard running again this week. Looking at the easy running average pace and I must say I was consistent

Tues 20th - 7m easy, 8:34avg grass

Wed 21st - 20'@5:55 progress to 5:50, 5min rec, 15x1' on/off
Had this session three weeks ago but pace for 20' slightly increased and 3 extra 1' reps for my trouble. Good to be back in the NEXT% for this. It was a lovely morning, with the heat increasing as the run progressed.

First mile of the 20' was into the wind, which helped slow my usual too fast start 5:54. Once I turned and got the advantage of the tailwind, the same effort brought about an increase of pace for the second 5:47. Third mile and I was feeling it, but able to maintain pace 5:48. Last bit of the 20' nearly hits half a mile these days. Pace slowed to 5:56 for this as I wanted to conserve myself for the 1' reps. Ran 18:11 5k time here

After the 5 min recovery, I felt ok and started on the 1 minute reps. Target was around 5:30-5:35. The route and wind were variable so a few reps were slower than target but was pleased with the effort levels and how the legs were feeling towards the end

Thurs 22nd - 7m easy, 8:35avg grass

Fri 23rd - 12x12" hill sprints, 25' wu/cd, 8:06avg

Sat 24th - 7m easy, 8:35avg grass

Sun 25th - 8m@6:10, 4m wu/cd
After sending the Metaspeeds back to Asics on Monday, I had ordered the NEXT% v2 and luckily they arrived for this run. Same session as previous week but with an extra warmup and cool down mile. Wasn't feeling as fresh as the previous week and it was a windy and really warm morning - even at 8am.

First mile and maybe showing my Nike bias, the 6:10 pace was noticeably easier to maintain. First 2 miles had a tailwind and the times show it 6:07, 6:07. Next half mile was the first hit of the headwind and it nearly gassed me, but was able to survive around the corner into a nicer sidewind 6:11. Was still recovering from the last mile and was finding it tough going 6:15.

Halfway and had the Blackrock castle hill coming up. Surprisingly was able to get up and down in good shape, but breathing was heavier 6:08. Had to turn into the wind for the next mile which hit me for six 6:16. Had to up the effort a bit here with the remaining two miles into that wind. Next mile was a 6:06, which is remarkable looking back now. Last mile involved the dreaded footbridge at the start of it. Was suffering quite a bit here but managed to keep it going to the end 6:05 for a 6:09 average.

The 4 mile cool down was torture, felt like my body was shutting down in the last mile. Once I got the recovery drink into me I was fine. Raced home to catch the end of the Wrexham (Cheshire) marathon to see Aoife Cooke win the woman's event with an amazing Olympic qualifying time of 2.28.36. Having the privilege of seeing her training program over the past few months and seeing her in action every Sunday, can't say I'm surprised by the time. Still a monumental achievement for her and hope for her sake that the Olympics now take place.

Stepback week next week

Weekly mileage - 57 miles
Year to date - 881 miles

Comic Book Guy

Another savage weeks work nailed T.

Have you a target race in mind late in the year if we manage to get to the far side of covid?

Treviso

Comic Book Guy wrote: »

Another savage weeks work nailed T.

Have you a target race in mind late in the year if we manage to get to the far side of covid?

Might have another TT coming up in June and then it'll be starting the marathon training for either DCM or Manchester. In my opinion DCM won't go ahead so will focus on Manchester. There's a really large number of people doing Manchester so hoping to get a group of similar paced runners together to make the training block a bit easier.

Have you a race booked other than DCM?

AuldManKing

Treviso wrote: »

Might have another TT coming up in June and then it'll be starting the marathon training for either DCM or Manchester. In my opinion DCM won't go ahead so will focus on Manchester. There's a really large number of people doing Manchester so hoping to get a group of similar paced runners together to make the training block a bit easier.

Have you a race booked other than DCM?

I've also booked Manchester - but only as a plan B to Berlin - that being said - with the numbers ging over to Manchester from the group - it could be a very good alternative (or even a Plan A)

Treviso

AuldManKing wrote: »

I've also booked Manchester - but only as a plan B to Berlin - that being said - with the numbers ging over to Manchester from the group - it could be a very good alternative (or even a Plan A)

We'll have a large amount of runners in Cork going to either Amsterdam or Manchester so all will go through similar or the same training blocks. When you need to hammer out 12-18 miles at MP every other week, then having a group around you is essential imo. Hopefully there is a few Dublin runners from the group with the same marathon pace as you so ye can do similar

shotgunmcos

How were the VPN%2?

Treviso

shotgunmcos wrote: »

How were the VPN%2?

Versus the MetaSpeeds, they were a lot bouncier and required pace was easier to maintain. About a 3-5sec per mile faster in my opinion. Versus the v1 of the NEXT%, they were the exact same but a slightly comfier upper fit. AlphaFlys are still my favourite

AuldManKing

Treviso wrote: »

Versus the MetaSpeeds, they were a lot bouncier and required pace was easier to maintain. About a 3-5sec per mile faster in my opinion. Versus the v1 of the NEXT%, they were the exact same but a slightly comfier upper fit. AlphaFlys are still my favourite

How do the Alpha flys feel at faster than MP pace??

I hear they are more of a Marathon pace shoe vrs Next % being more versatile?

Treviso

AuldManKing wrote: »

How do the Alpha flys feel at faster than MP pace??

I hear they are more of a Marathon pace shoe vrs Next % being more versatile?

I've worn the Alphas 3 times. First was a 20' tempo to test them out, they felt so springy when I put them on first - noticeable more than the NEXT%. Second was for a 10 mile TT and third for the recent 10k TT. Have to take into account the taper for both TTs, but I felt that the Alphas gave more bounce to my stride. I would wear them for all distances race wise

It's hard to compare a 10k TT with my 8m tempo on Sunday, but stride length for the TT was 1.41m versus 1.30m in the tempo with the NEXT% v2. Interestingly my average cadence for the tempo was higher than the TT, 202 versus 196. But maybe that is just my lack of running form for the tempo

Enjoyed reading your answers this morning on the Stable news

AuldManKing

Treviso wrote: »

Enjoyed reading your answers this morning on the Stable news

:eek:
Didn't know I was on this week.

Comic Book Guy

AuldManKing wrote: »

:eek:
Didn't know I was on this week.

If OOnegative could see your pic!!