Defence forces facing crisis

Sonny noggs

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I agree it is illegal to bring in illegal immigrants that way but it is also illegal to ignore an order from the Minister/EU Central Naval Command in Brussels.

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens on O’Connell Street in the morning, without cause. Would that be a legal order?

_blaaz

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens without cause. Would that be a legal order?

On what grounds would they challenge the order?


There are instances where the defence forces refuse to do stuff,such as joint armed checkpoints with gaurda special branch...but reasons for.this are for another thread

Dude89

skooterblue2 wrote: »

why? It is harder to train older people plus carrying injuries. then value for money for the taxpayer. After 25 it is much harder to train people who have never experienced military culture. Its not that simple. You find very few people joining the military after 30 and completing training.

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

skooterblue2

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Hardly illegal to challenge an illegal order. They should have challenged the order. Or are we claiming that any order from the minister is legal? What it he / she ordered the military to gun down Irish citizens on O’Connell Street in the morning, without cause. Would that be a legal order?

Have a look what they did to Maurice McCabe. What do you think they would do to a member of the defence forces who exposed a more serious flaw than speeding tickets?

Plumbthedepths

Sonny noggs wrote:

Suffering of migrants. What a joke. Have you not copped on the the presence of the ships encouraged the people smugglers to step up their efforts to smuggle as many people as possible. The ships basically picked them up off the coast of Libya and dropped them off in Europe. Lots of doctors and engineers I’m sure. lots of fools hoodwinked.

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

skooterblue2

Dude89 wrote: »

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

Look at the statistics. Those countries are likely to go to conflict and may have to expand their recruitment base, like in World War 2. No you are not in your physical prime at 30, You are much more likely to pick up injuries when you are competing against 20 year olds. Could you also adapt your life at 30 to the military regime? Why didnt you do it when you were younger? If you were really interested you would have done it immediately after secondary school or college.

You are not comparing like with like.

Topgear on Dave

Dude89 wrote: »

You're literally in the prime of your life at these ages it's nonsensical to limit the recruitment age to 25 you're acting like 30 is old which is quite ridiculous, The British army is 34, US is 35, Canadian is 35, armies that actually see combat.

They like to get the recruits in young and fit. Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.

Its way more challenging to run the organisation if they are losing senior NCOs, technical experts or officers. These type people require years to train and develop.

They cannot just be hired off the street at short notice when needed.

Sonny noggs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

I would if I believed they were gaming the system like these people are. The people are desperate to get to Europe for economic reasons. They have no right or entitlement to come here. If some people had their way the whole of Africa would be welcomed into Ireland with open arms.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm well aware that the traffickers were alerting the various services that there was people on the water. Personally I'm ok with saving the lives of desperate people. I have kids and would do anything I could to give them a good life and hope.
The smugglers are preying on the desperate and the humanitarian urges of people such as the Irish.
Would you walk by someone needing help?

It is not Irelands job to take in everyone. It is the Defence Force job to protect our citizens and territories. This also means not taking in every Tom Dick and Harry from Pakistan, Somalia and Ethiopia.

dudara

@Sonny noggs - do not post in this thread again. Talk about derailing from the OT.

Posters - please focus on the OT and do not reply

dudara

Plumbthedepths

Topgear on Dave wrote:

They like to get the recruits in young and fit. Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.

It's a retention crisis based on the fact that serving members are expected to do more for less. Btw the 10million the government announced to much fanfare for military pay works out at circa 10 euro a week pre tax.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

It is not Irelands job to take in everyone. It is the Defence Force job to protect our citizens and territories. This also means not taking in every Tom Dick and Harry from Pakistan, Somalia and Ethiopia.

We are a member of the EU and the UN. Maybe look up what membership means and then you might understand why our DF was tasked with a mission in the Med.
We are a very small country with a small DF but the respect our DF enjoys abroad is incredible. It's just a pity so many in this island have so much contempt for them. I'm biased though as I lost 2 family members serving on an overseas mission protecting innocent civilians whose only crime was trying to live.
I'm proud of our DF, it's a pity the current government has such contempt for them.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

We are a member of the EU and the UN. Maybe look up what membership means and then you might understand why our DF was tasked with a mission in the Med.
We are a very small country with a small DF but the respect our DF enjoys abroad is incredible. It's just a pity so many in this island have so much contempt for them. I'm biased though as I lost 2 family members serving on an overseas mission protecting innocent civilians whose only crime was trying to live.
I'm proud of our DF, it's a pity the current government has such contempt for them.

I am not responding to this post because it will draw me into a conflict with the Mod directive. I will leave it as I have a different opinion. Feel free to attract the Mods wrath.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Dude89 wrote: »

Said before the age limit for recruitment should be raised to 35 like every other army.

Just Googled it there. 25 years is a very low cut off. I wouldn't qualify to join them , but am much healthier and stronger and have a lot more cop on now than when I was in my early 20's.

I mean, what makes a 26 year old a bad recruit but a 24 year old is fine? I mean I understand not wanting someone in their 40's to join the forces for 25 years as you could end up with a (grand) 'dad's army'. But it must be the only job in the state that has a cut off age of 18-25 to join.

The Gardai have the age limit set at 35.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

I am not responding to this post because it will draw me into a conflict with the Mod directive. I will leave it as I have a different opinion. Feel free to attract the Mods wrath.

I have no issue with acting in an humanitarian manner, the sailors pulling people from the med only saw another person needing help the politics / economics weren't an issue. If you believe Europe has no responsibility for economic migration I'm afraid you have no knowledge of colonialism. Yes the Irish did take part abeit as employees but they were still there.

skooterblue2

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Anyway is it a recruitment crisis or a retention crisis? Its not that difficult to recruit and train young privates.
.

Its a bit of both. The more important is to stem the lost of experienced technical personnel. Training staff are complaining about standards.

One of relaxations are during the recruit training is that they used take recruits away for 3 weeks with no contact with home or access to television or internet. Now they get access to the internet for a few hours a day. They pick up injuries easier too due to not wearing boots as children and wearing soft shoes (fallen arches). The first two years of training is fairly tough with winter exercises. IF you do not pay the money they will not come. You have much more money and it easier in civvy street, with a 9 to 5.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

One of relaxations are during the recruit training is that they used take recruits away for 3 weeks with no contact with home or access to television or internet. Now they get access to the internet for a few hours a day. They pick up injuries easier too due to not wearing boots as children and wearing soft shoes (fallen arches). The first two years of training is fairly tough with winter exercises. IF you do not pay the money they will not come. You have much more money and it easier in civvy street, with a 9 to 5.

You are correct in one regard pay the money and they will come, but placing value on service is also an issue. I see commentary on a regular basis denigrating the service given by members of the DF. The government should publish the positive sides of our DF. It's incredible the respect our DF gets aboard but yet people in this country are ignorant to it. It was a rapid reaction Irish force that saved the lives of other UN peace keepers in the Golan heights.
A Netflix movie the 'Seige of Jadotville' showed the courage of our DF, eventhough the movie depicts an era of 60+ years ago that bravery and devotion to duty still exists.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

A Netflix movie the 'Seige of Jadotville' showed the courage of our DF, eventhough the movie depicts an era of 60+ years ago that bravery and devotion to duty still exists.

That is not positive recruitment movie for the Defence Forces. That shows a force under attack, outnumbered and lead by more experienced leadership and better motivated. They were abandoned by the bureaucrats, politicians and staff. They were denied Casevac and resupply in force and artillery support. They werent equipped sufficiently.

They then were forced to surrender. The worst part was when they were brought home, they were disgraced and it was too late for too many of them. However Conor Cruise OBrien went onto be a Government minister the ultimate politically correct crook. The man was a running joke as regards Post & Telegraphs and I think education. Still got his pensions and perks.

Must have been a different movie I saw. These movies are wonderful and what not but when you are in the trenches and you hear there is no more food and ammo and water are running low. That is something different.

Pintman Paddy Losty

The Irish army are a joke. They're paid more than enough for what they do. It's not like you have the brightest of lads joining up. You don't even need a leaving cert to get in. Then they spend their time sitting around a barracks all day. Finish up at 4.30 every day and get half days on Wednesday and Fridays. Go to the gym during working hours.

Then don't get me started about overseas. A glorified holiday camp.

skooterblue2

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

The Irish army are a joke. They're paid more than enough for what they do. It's not like you have the brightest of lads joining up. You don't even need a leaving cert to get in. Then they spend their time sitting around a barracks all day. Finish up at 4.30 every day and get half days on Wednesday and Fridays. Go to the gym during working hours.

Then don't get me started about overseas. A glorified holiday camp.

You didnt get past interview stage did you? The officer didnt like the cut of your jib? You need a Pass leaving cert.

Not true either plenty of duties, exercises and training to be doing. Thats their job to be physically fit.

Overseas? My friend was over in the Balkans and the toilets bowls cracked with the freezing temperatures. 3 minute showers in CHAD? I think about 85 members of the Defence Forces have died overseas. Chance of Rabies, one died from a strange type of cancer, PTSD from Shelling and what not? You are welcome to call it a holiday camp.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

That is not positive recruitment movie for the Defence Forces. That shows a force under attack, outnumbered and lead by more experienced leadership and better motivated. They were abandoned by the bureaucrats, politicians and staff. They were denied Casevac and resupply in force and artillery support. They werent equipped sufficiently.

Pity you ignored the calibre of and bravery of the Irish soldiers that served there which is what the movie was about.
Your post demonstrates the ignorance most have towards the DF which allows for the poor pay a d retention rates.

Plumbthedepths

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote:

The Irish army are a joke. They're paid more than enough for what they do. It's not like you have the brightest of lads joining up. You don't even need a leaving cert to get in. Then they spend their time sitting around a barracks all day. Finish up at 4.30 every day and get half days on Wednesday and Fridays. Go to the gym during working hours.

The only joke here is the likes of you that thinks your bowel movements are worthy of sharing with others.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Pity you ignored the calibre of and bravery of the Irish soldiers that served there which is what the movie was about.
Your post demonstrates the ignorance most have towards the DF which allows for the poor pay a d retention rates.

The most important thing is when you are in a situation like that is "Am I going to come out of this alive?". Those men were lucky to be taken by Europeans because if they were taken by Africans they would have been dead. I will agree there was exceptional leadership, innovation and bravery shown by all members in the worst circumstances.
Bravery and medals means very little when you are being shipped home in a coffin. Decorations means very little when your widow needs comfort and your children need raising. Have you actually served yourself? Thought not. This changes your perspective when you have done a few years.

Calhoun

Should they be paid more ? Yes but let's get real s private or anyone on low rank should not be in a position to be a sole earner for a family.

Like it or not allot of people in the private sector have to make do and have both parents working.

Should pay scale as they go up on responsibility ? Yes of course but there have to be limits .

Phileas Frog

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Liaising with people smugglers and bringing illegal immigrants to the EU was not done in the interest of the Irish state. Arguably it was treasonous. The ‘order’ should have been refused and then challenged through the courts.

Hahahaha hahaha hahahaha you're some gobshíte

skooterblue2

Calhoun wrote: »

Should they be paid more ? Yes but let's get real s private or anyone on low rank should not be in a position to be a sole earner for a family.

Like it or not allot of people in the private sector have to make do and have both parents working.

Should pay scale as they go up on responsibility ? Yes of course but there have to be limits .

That is why they have 5 year contracts, get promoted or get out.

skooterblue2

Phileas Frog wrote: »

Hahahaha hahaha hahahaha you're some gobshíte

Its true, if the Chief of Staff refused an order like that, they would have him replaced in an hour and a new CoS sworn in. Its just easier to go with the flow and be a good boy. Maurice McCabe wishes he had done the same now.

Plumbthedepths

skooterblue2 wrote:

Have you actually served yourself? Thought not. This changes your perspective when you have done a few years.

You asked a question, at least have the courtesy to allow me answer.. 13 years as a PA, I also stood airside as the coffins of two my family members were unloaded from Lebanon. I'm well aware medals mean f**k all but a little respect (in the form of proper pay) from the people that send soldiers to carry out assigned duties would be nice.

Car99

weldoninhio wrote: »

It’s an EU border, tell the EU we need help manning it

German troops manning our border , the UK would love that.

skooterblue2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You asked a question, at least have the courtesy to allow me answer.. 13 years as a PA, I also stood airside as the coffins of two my family members were unloaded from Lebanon. I'm well aware medals mean f**k all but a little respect (in the form of proper pay) from the people that send soldiers to carry out assigned duties would be nice.

I think I know who you are now. Your father and your aunts husband? In Lebanon within a few weeks of each other? Fair play on getting into the PA, a tough vocation.