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Defence forces facing crisis

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    #62
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    You asked a question, at least have the courtesy to allow me answer.. 13 years as a PA, I also stood airside as the coffins of two my family members were unloaded from Lebanon. I'm well aware medals mean f**k all but a little respect (in the form of proper pay) from the people that send soldiers to carry out assigned duties would be nice.

    Isn't that part of the United Nations work and don't you get special pay for it ?

    What's a PA?


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    #63
    Mr_Muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Mr_Muffin


    The pay is terrible. I can see why experienced personnel are leaving.

    The defence forces was seen as a good, secure job during the recession, but now that the economy is flying again, personnel know they can double their salary in the private sector. Why wouldn't they leave?

    On the other hand, it's a life that suits some people - it's an easy life. No doubt about it. Not everyone has the ability (or motivation) to get a high paying job.


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    #64
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I have no issue with acting in an humanitarian manner, the sailors pulling people from the med only saw another person needing help the politics / economics weren't an issue. If you believe Europe has no responsibility for economic migration I'm afraid you have no knowledge of colonialism. Yes the Irish did take part abeit as employees but they were still there.

    We cannot take in unlimited numbers from the Mediterranean into Europe. We cannot be expected to provide food for these people as they have over 20% of arable land in Africa. We cannot be held responsible for decisions of our fore fathers. That will lead us down the road of Traveller fights. How am I responsible for some decision taken 400 years ago that doesnt even affect people to day?
    As I recall Europeans left Africa in a wonderful state when they left. It is the Africans own responsibility for their own state now that their infrastructure is crumbling.


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    #65
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    skooterblue2 wrote:
    As I recall Europeans left Africa in a wonderful state when they left. It is the Africans own responsibility for their own state now that their infrastructure is crumbling.


    Subject for a different thread, but I hope the above comment was said as a wind up.... if not I despair.


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    #66
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Isn't that part of the United Nations work and don't you get special pay for it ?

    What's a PA?

    You get an allowance for it. Its all about allowances technicians pay and duties. That is how you make your paycheque work. Fine for a single guy but pain in the ass for a married guy.

    PA= Military Policeman. a prestigious yet tough unit to be in.


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    #67
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Calhoun wrote:
    Isn't that part of the United Nations work and don't you get special pay for it ?

    There is a gratuity paid for the T.OD. but is totally separate to the poor pay soldiers receive here.
    Calhoun wrote:
    What's a PA?
    PA is the Irish acroynom for Military Police


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    #68
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You get an allowance for it. Its all about allowances technicians pay and duties. That is how you make your paycheque work. Fine for a single guy but pain in the ass for a married guy.

    PA= Military Policeman. a prestigious yet tough unit to be in.

    The big problem its a young single man's game. However they should be paid better for being away for extended periods but that has it's limits.

    Think about where we came from like the curragh has the little village with custom built house for soldiers ECT. We no longer have that kinda model in place and I don't think we are going to get back to it.


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    #69
    Horusire
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Horusire


    Just something to add.

    From personal experience and as someone who the defence forces has recently spent circa 120k training over the last 4 years to work in a technical role. I cannot wait to leave. I am on roughly 38k gross at the minute and will leave to work in a factory starting at 55k. No overtime, no 24 hour duties or nights away from family.

    Counting the days until I can afford to buy myself out.


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    #70
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Subject for a different thread, but I hope the above comment was said as a wind up.... if not I despair.

    Now you brought it up, Yeah my aunt was out in the mission in the 1960s left in the early 80's and went back in the 1990's. The place had fallen apart. The seminary was gone, the nursing school, primary and secondary school and the priests were incorporating animal sacrifice into the native mass.

    Africans were given everything in the 1960's to be independent and they reverted back to their own tribal forms. They had a european style civil service established for them, European civil engineering and cash crops left. Then they got their independence and they went nuts. Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, that chap with the mad head dress in the Congo. And you want to bring them here en masse? How is that our present day responsibility. I bet you cant name one african civil engineering project that hasnt had a European/Russian/American influence in it since the 1960s?


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    #71
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Horusire wrote: »
    Just something to add.

    From personal experience and as someone who the defence forces has recently spent circa 120k training over the last 4 years to work in a technical role. I cannot wait to leave. I am on roughly 38k gross at the minute and will leave to work in a factory starting at 55k. No overtime, no 24 hour duties or nights away from family.

    Counting the days until I can afford to buy myself out.

    Isn't it great that you can walk into a factory job after getting trained up. I assume that it's a highly technical role as no factories hire at that level for entry level.

    How long have you served for ?


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    #72
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Calhoun wrote: »
    The big problem its a young single man's game. However they should be paid better for being away for extended periods but that has it's limits.

    Think about where we came from like the curragh has the little village with custom built house for soldiers ECT. We no longer have that kinda model in place and I don't think we are going to get back to it.

    You cant put a price on spending time with your wife and kids. Its not about money, its about making sure they are developing and educationally taking advantage of opportunities.

    I have often wondered what was that imbecile in the civil service thinking when he thought of liquidating it. That could easily be bought back (at massive expense) with a compulsory purchase order. There are certain people who have to on short call on the camp at all times, eg Doctor, Vet, young officers, Training staff etc.


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    #73
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Isn't it great that you can walk into a factory job after getting trained up. I assume that it's a highly technical role as no factories hire at that level for entry level.

    How long have you served for ?

    He is probably only one in a hundred. I think once you enter the defence forces you should be condering responsibly how to get out and plan an exit to civilian life afterwards.


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    #74
    Horusire
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Horusire


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Horusire wrote: »
    Just something to add.

    From personal experience and as someone who the defence forces has recently spent circa 120k training over the last 4 years to work in a technical role. I cannot wait to leave. I am on roughly 38k gross at the minute and will leave to work in a factory starting at 55k. No overtime, no 24 hour duties or nights away from family.

    Counting the days until I can afford to buy myself out.

    Isn't it great that you can walk into a factory job after getting trained up. I assume that it's a highly technical role as no factories hire at that level for entry level.

    How long have you served for ?
    10ish years and it's absolutely fantastic. I can't say a bad word about what the organisation has given me however I wouldn't recommend any of my family to join.

    Not a nice way to live if you have options.


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    #75
    Horusire
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Horusire


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Calhoun wrote: »
    Isn't it great that you can walk into a factory job after getting trained up. I assume that it's a highly technical role as no factories hire at that level for entry level.

    How long have you served for ?

    He is probably only one in a hundred. I think once you enter the defence forces you should be condering responsibly how to get out and plan an exit to civilian life afterwards.

    1/500 would be more accurate. I am extremely lucky.


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    #76
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    He is probably only one in a hundred. I think once you enter the defence forces you should be condering responsibly how to get out and plan an exit to civilian life afterwards.

    I know lads with barely a leaving joining, my generation it wasn't as bad as it is now but it was just around the time they had just started to sell off their stock.


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    #77
    marketty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭marketty


    Ah yes, that old chestnut "you knew the pay when you signed up, if it's so bad just leave".

    They are leaving, in their droves. Over 400 out of 8300 serving in the first 6 months of this year, probably 1000 by the end of the year. That's the problem!

    In 2017 €15 million was spent on recruiting and training hundreds of new entrants, while at the same time hundreds of people with a decade or 2 of experience left, giving a net increase of THREE personnel and after all that time money and effort on recruitment. Absolute madness.


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    #78
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Mr_Muffin wrote: »
    The pay is terrible. I can see why experienced personnel are leaving.

    The defence forces was seen as a good, secure job during the recession, but now that the economy is flying again, personnel know they can double their salary in the private sector. Why wouldn't they leave?

    On the other hand, it's a life that suits some people - it's an easy life. No doubt about it. Not everyone has the ability (or motivation) to get a high paying job.

    No they cut the gratuity and the duties during the last recession and never restored them. It was never a secure job (since 2000's) as you were on contracts. It is far from an easy life, civvy street is far easier. The list of duties and exercises would exhaust you. In civvy street there are few overnights, no foreign postings, and few work related injuries (with the possible exception of farming).

    I think it is a great life for a young lad up to 30 until he wants to get serious.


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    #79
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Horusire wrote: »
    10ish years and it's absolutely fantastic. I can't say a bad word about what the organisation has given me however I wouldn't recommend any of my family to join.

    Not a nice way to live if you have options.

    I wouldn't recommend it to any of mine either, it can be a game changer for some people in terms of helping them grow but I don't think it's something that is sustainable long term.


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    #80
    Horusire
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Horusire


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Horusire wrote: »
    10ish years and it's absolutely fantastic. I can't say a bad word about what the organisation has given me however I wouldn't recommend any of my family to join.

    Not a nice way to live if you have options.

    I wouldn't recommend it to any of mine either, it can be a game changer for some people in terms of helping them grow but I don't think it's something that is sustainable long term.

    Nail and head. Helped me grow up as a person and made me the person I am today. However it's changed immensely and the pressure people are under is starting to show. Hardly anyone I talk to has plans to stay.

    Serious amount of people how joined PRE 04 are hanging about for their pension and will be out the door.


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    #81
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Calhoun wrote: »
    I know lads with barely a leaving joining, my generation it wasn't as bad as it is now but it was just around the time they had just started to sell off their stock.

    What kind of lunatic accountant told them to sell fixed assets to buy short term plant? Probably one in the builders pocket.

    Do you want to go through or add to the list? Collins and Griffith in Dublin, Waterford, Ballincollig, Clonmel, Athlone/Mullingar(cant remember which)?

    To buy equipment with a medium shelf life? It was cannibalization.


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    #82
    eurokev
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭eurokev


    In fairness the defence forces is a handy number.

    Just one particular example of a buddy of mine.

    Started in the army at 21, has traveled the world and earned decent tax free lump sums as a result.

    Best time of his life he regularly confirms to me.

    Now 13 years on he has a young family. He is out doing an apprenticeship with a private company at the moment on army time, after this apprenticeship he is more or less certain to be sent out to do a degree for another 4 years.

    When all this is done, he is bound to move up the ranks and earn a bit more because of his education and has only a few more years left to serve before he is out with a full army pension in his 40s and very well positioned to get a very good job.

    Also there is absolutely no denying that the defence forces is absolutely poisoned with nepotism


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    #83
    Horusire
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Horusire


    eurokev wrote: »
    In fairness the defence forces is a handy number.

    Just one particular example of a buddy of mine.

    Started in the army at 21, has traveled the world and earned decent tax free lump sums as a result.

    Best time of his life he regularly confirms to me.

    Now 13 years on he has a young family. He is out doing an apprenticeship with a private company at the moment on army time, after this apprenticeship he is more or less certain to be sent out to do a degree for another 4 years.

    When all this is done, he is bound to move up the ranks and earn a bit more because of his education and has only a few more years left to serve before he is out with a full army pension in his 40s and very well positioned to get a very good job.

    Also there is absolutely no denying that the defence forces is absolutely poisoned with nepotism

    If he joined 13 years ago that would be 2006 ?

    He won't get a pension when he leaves only people who joined before a certain date in 2004 will.

    Also I assume he joined the other ranks. I have never heard of anyone from the engineers being sent on a 4 year course.

    Did he tell you all this?


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    #84
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Tzardine wrote: »
    The pay is crap, not arguement there.

    But people know the pay before they apply. I dont think you can then moan about it when you accept the job and the pay scale. If they dont like it then take another job. This is exactly the advice we give to anybody else.

    My grandad, dad and most of my uncles were in the army. But lets be honest, in the case of enlisted staff, its a low skilled job, how much money should we actually pay ? Minimum wage , living wage , €50,000? Who knows? I personally believe its a living wage job with additional allowances (being abroad etc) where nescessary.

    I dont buy the arguement that they are doing an important role in protecting our country from foreign attack either. In the event of an attack our military would be neutralised within an hour if we are lucky.

    A Recruit would be a low skilled Rank, however, being a soldier is not a "low skilled job" no matter what you think.

    To think (at a bare minimum) that a person entrusted in the use of weapons and live ammunition, the dual legalities of their use and the complex methods in which they may be used is a "low skilled job" is frankly...stupid on your part.

    Never mind the rest of the job.


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    #85
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    What kind of lunatic accountant told them to sell fixed assets to buy short term plant? Probably one in the builders pocket.

    Do you want to go through or add to the list? Collins and Griffith in Dublin, Waterford, Ballincollig, Clonmel, Athlone/Mullingar(cant remember which)?

    To buy equipment with a medium shelf life? It was cannibalization.

    The same ones that sold our social housing stock, the private market cannot sustain what we need .


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    #86
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Dude89 wrote: »
    Said before the age limit for recruitment should be raised to 35 like every other army.

    Maybe for Specialists or for 3 year contracts but a 35 year old isnt going to br happy to work for <500 a week.

    35 sounds great on paper but in reality, a lot of people at that age have large financial commitments. Not only that, mature people of that age will be taking orders from a 21 year old Corporal. There are loads of reasons why it wont work.

    Yes other militaries do it...is it because they need the manpower for overseas Operations? Yes it is.


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    #87
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    _blaaz wrote: »
    On what grounds would they challenge the order?


    There are instances where the defence forces refuse to do stuff,such as joint armed checkpoints with gaurda special branch...but reasons for.this are for another thread

    Never heard of that before, infact, I have heard the opposite. AGS dislike the DF assisting them in armed operations...."as its their turf".


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    #88
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Never heard of that before, infact, I have heard the opposite. AGS dislike the DF assisting them in armed operations...."as its their turf".

    It is/was widely rumoured that soldier killed in troubles was friendly fire incident


    The proof usually given is that was the last time they mounted a joint checkpoint (unlikely to ever have to again tbf).....so i was told by a cousin who was detective at one time


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    #89
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    _blaaz wrote: »
    What should the government do to head off a staff shortage in the defence forces with immediate effect,given a hard border is a distinct possibility with brexit

    Nothing, do we really need them all except perhaps the navy? The army lads seem to be bored in barracks a lot of the time?


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    #90
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,686 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    You asked a question, at least have the courtesy to allow me answer.. 13 years as a PA, I also stood airside as the coffins of two my family members were unloaded from Lebanon. I'm well aware medals mean f**k all but a little respect (in the form of proper pay) from the people that send soldiers to carry out assigned duties would be nice.

    If you don't already know, Skooterblue 2 has 6 years FCA service dating back 20 years.


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    #91
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    If you don't already know, Skooterblue 2 has 6 years FCA service dating back 20 years...dont be fooled by the "have you served" shenanigans.

    Atleast I have done "something", plenty of detractors have done nothing with their lives outside of pint glass.


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