Defence forces facing crisis

Calhoun

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

If you don't already know, Skooterblue 2 has 6 years FCA service dating back 20 years.

So what I haven't served but I as tax payer help pay the bills. If we are going to be ratty about it. I would rather pay nurses , doctors and other front line services.

Aging action men with very little skills should not be paid more just because they reproduce.

Plumbthedepths

Signore Fancy Pants wrote:

If you don't already know, Skooterblue 2 has 6 years FCA service dating back 20 years.

Never understood the attitude towards the reserves tbh. It should have been used as a pool to recruit for the regulars and properly trained as a complimentary force to the PDF including allowing for overseas service.

Calhoun

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Never understood the attitude towards the reserves tbh. It should have been used as a pool to recruit for the regulars and properly trained as a complimentary force to the PDF including allowing for overseas service.

It's not even dismissive of the organization but also of any non serving citizen. As if to say put me on a pedestal, if that's the approach been taken better to let others talk.

Signore Fancy Pants

_blaaz wrote: »

It is/was widely rumoured that soldier killed in troubles was friendly fire incident

The proof usually given is that was the last time they mounted a joint checkpoint (unlikely to ever have to again tbf).....so i was told by a cousin who was detective at one time

Yeah I heard that myself and TBF, in general terms, there is no comparison between the two entities when it comes to weapons handling and operation.

I have seen enough and heard enough from colleagues that raise a doubt if AGS should be armed at all. Indeed, ex DF members who are now well positioned in AGS units cant believe the difference...but thats for another debate.

My own view as a serving soldier is the Organisation has been slowly going down hill since 2004. There are a hugh number of issues but it all stems from our successive Leadership having limited autonomy from the Dept. of Defence...they run the DF.

I would recommend anyone to join for no more than 5 years, then get out. Im glad I joined, it has given me a lot but it has taken a hell of a lot more from me.

For those who see an overseas trip as a holiday camp, well you are not wrong but you are very far away from being right.

If you dont mind being away from your family for the bulk of 3/6/12/18/24 months and the 3 months training before deployment then its all grand.

The phrase "travel or see the World" is bull****. Come back to me when you have seen sunny Goz Beida, tropical Zorzor or salubrious Quneitra.

For a 6 month trip, I get paid double. One salary from the DF and a payment from the U.N. This is because the U.N does not have a military force, the U.N actually "rents" troops and equipment.

Ireland charges the U.N x amount for each soldier...Ireland then pays that soldier a portion of what the U.N pays Ireland. A number of years ago, Ireland reduced the U.N payment to soldiers by 10%.....and kept it for themselves.

I have between 6 and 10 overseas trips done, I was contractually required to serve overseas or I would have been out of a job. Yes I made decent money from it but was it worth it? No

Signore Fancy Pants

Calhoun wrote: »

So what I haven't served but I as tax payer help pay the bills. If we are going to be ratty about it. I would rather pay nurses , doctors and other front line services.

Aging action men with very little skills should not be paid more just because they reproduce.

Im not being "ratty". Poster 'A' asked Poster 'B' if he had served. Suggesting that if Poster 'B' had not served then his opinion would be tainted.

In fact...Poster 'A' is the one with the outdated and worse off opinion than Poster 'B'.

Simple.

I would also rather pay nurses, doctors and other front line services more by reducing miney earmarked for career dole recipients...but where does that get us? Nowhere.

Calhoun wrote: »

Aging action men with very little skills should not be paid more just because they reproduce.

Well, if thats your argument, you can argue with yourself.

Signore Fancy Pants

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Never understood the attitude towards the reserves tbh. It should have been used as a pool to recruit for the regulars and properly trained as a complimentary force to the PDF including allowing for overseas service.

Agreed, I was a Reserve myself and 100% agree.

Calhoun

Same to yourself, you want to go around being dismissive of others when you have the hand out then sling your hook.

It will resolve itself in the end either way because supply and demand will kick in once enough leave and they will have to do something.

Would be nice if we could do it in a more humane and supportive way but doesn't look like that will be an option.

Signore Fancy Pants

Calhoun wrote: »

It's not even dismissive of the organization but also of any non serving citizen. As if to say put me on a pedestal, if that's the approach been taken better to let others talk.

Not at all, there is no pedestal.

You are getting angry over something which wasnt directed at you and also something which you have interpreted incorrectly.

I was adding clarification for a poster...not saying people who have not served should have no say or opinion. Thats ridiculous, utterly ridicilous. Your assumption is wrong.

skooterblue2

Calhoun wrote: »

So what I haven't served but I as tax payer help pay the bills. If we are going to be ratty about it. I would rather pay nurses , doctors and other front line services.

Aging action men with very little skills should not be paid more just because they reproduce.

No problem. You shouldnt pay car insurance either but what are you going to do on the day that you need it? You pay for an regular army so that the day that you do want them that you are there. Nurses are already well paid and there arent issues with paying doctors but with working conditions.

You should have seen all the guys I joined up with. We had every profession in it, almost. Tradesmen and professional, students and what not. We had a fantastic pool of talent.

Calhoun

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Not at all, there is no pedestal.

You are getting angry over something which wasnt directed at you and also something which you have interpreted incorrectly.

I was adding clarification for a poster...not saying people who have not served should have no say or opinion. Thats ridiculous, utterly ridicilous. Your assumption is wrong.

I am getting annoyed at an attitude I have seen before. You want more support for your organization that's fine but if you cannot handle a little criticism then don't expect it

Even other posters misunderstood what you meant as they defended the RDF. If your going to be derogatory about part of your organization don't expect others to respect your own organization because that at the time was basically putting the DF on a pedestal in comparison to the RDF.

skooterblue2

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

If you don't already know, Skooterblue 2 has 6 years FCA service dating back 20 years.

You assume that is all I have done with my life. No other accomplishments or alocades. I think what part time service I fitted in 6 years was great. Same as my parents did in the civil defence. It was part of my life and it was great but I have done other things.

Calhoun

skooterblue2 wrote: »

No problem. You shouldnt pay car insurance either but what are you going to do on the day that you need it? You pay for an regular army so that the day that you do want them that you are there. Nurses are already well paid and there arent issues with paying doctors but with working conditions.

You should have seen all the guys I joined up with. We had every profession in it, almost. Tradesmen and professional, students and what not. We had a fantastic pool of talent.

My point is that we either respect the organization on a whole or not at all.

The reserve defence force is a way for citizens to serve without doing it full time.

We have seen cases in the past of what the mainline service has thought of the reserves and the disdain is something they have form for.

Do I think we should pay them more ? Yes I would be in favour of making sure that we look after them a bit more but as I said it must scale with how useful you are.

_blaaz

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yeah I heard that myself and TBF, in general terms, there is no comparison between the two entities when it comes to weapons handling and operation.

I have seen enough and heard enough from colleagues that raise a doubt if AGS should be armed at all. Indeed, ex DF members who are now well positioned in AGS units cant believe the difference...but thats for another debate.

My own view as a serving soldier is the Organisation has been slowly going down hill since 2004. There are a hugh number of issues but it all stems from our successive Leadership having limited autonomy from the Dept. of Defence...they run the DF.

I would recommend anyone to join for no more than 5 years, then get out. Im glad I joined, it has given me a lot but it has taken a hell of a lot more from me.

For those who see an overseas trip as a holiday camp, well you are not wrong but you are very far away from being right.

If you dont mind being away from your family for the bulk of 3/6/12/18/24 months and the 3 months training before deployment then its all grand.

The phrase "travel or see the World" is bull****. Come back to me when you have seen sunny Goz Beida, tropical Zorzor or salubrious Quneitra.

For a 6 month trip, I get paid double. One salary from the DF and a payment from the U.N. This is because the U.N does not have a military force, the U.N actually "rents" troops and equipment.

Ireland charges the U.N x amount for each soldier...Ireland then pays that soldier a portion of what the U.N pays Ireland. A number of years ago, Ireland reduced the U.N payment to soldiers by 10%.....and kept it for themselves.

I have between 6 and 10 overseas trips done, I was contractually required to serve overseas or I would have been out of a job. Yes I made decent money from it but was it worth it? No

I remember meeting lads from army in FAS.....tbh i didnt begrudge em one bit as regards military police and massive oversight as regards their accomndation etc



It deos seem decimated regarding morale and anyone i know in it,are just waiting around to quit/leave...thats a horrible atmosphere to work in (i worked similar atmosphere jobs and its very unmotivating)

What can be done to sort this and bring bit more professionalism(maybe wrong word??)/pride back into it though and retain lads longer??

Maybe shorter,better paying contracts (iirc lads said to me was 7 year contracts they were on)

Green Peter

Signore Fancy Pants wrote:

I have seen enough and heard enough from colleagues that raise a doubt if AGS should be armed at all. Indeed, ex DF members who are now well positioned in AGS units cant believe the difference...but thats for another debate.

Signore Fancy Pants wrote:

Yeah I heard that myself and TBF, in general terms, there is no comparison between the two entities when it comes to weapons handling and operation.

What a load of crap. There are plenty of bad weapons handling examples in the DF and I know people in the DF who were in the wrong side of it. ERU and ARU are trained to a very high standard and regular members with firearms are trained highly. When was the last time an Irish soldier fired a shot in Ireland in the course of their duty. Gardai are often in armed situations and your arguement doesn't stand up. But it's a good story for your mates in the pub.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

The same people who will tell you Ireland's future is 100% within an EU partnership and it couldn't survive without it conveniently forget that our commitment to the EU is increasingly taking a military role - PESCO requires increased levels of defence spending.

You can't just start buying new aircraft, vehicles or ships without having a dedicated, professional and knowledgeable core of leaders who can pass on training and guidance to those coming up the ranks.

skooterblue2

Green Peter wrote: »

ERU and ARU are trained to a very high standard and regular members with firearms are trained highly. When was the last time an Irish soldier fired a shot in Ireland in the course of their duty. Gardai are often in armed situations and your arguement doesn't stand up. But it's a good story for your mates in the pub.

Guard just shot himself in the foot last week, with his own gun.
What kind of an idiot in all fairness would fire upon a member of the defence forces in Ireland? I am guessing that would have been Dessie O Hare(but open to correction), look where his buddy ended up in the seat next to him?

I think I have only heard of two negligible discharges where someone was seriously hurt.

Donnielighto

Plenty of biased df members here.

skooterblue2

Donnielighto wrote: »

Plenty of biased df members here.

Nobody said you couldnt express an opinion, and I welcome yours.

Green Peter

skooterblue2 wrote:

I think I have only heard of two negligible discharges where someone was seriously hurt.

Make a few more enquires and you will find more than serious injuries. If you are travelling with Dessie O Haire when he's on the run you might be a bit vunerable especially after ramming a checkpoint and coming on another with armed gardai. Methinks it was a job well done. A little bit if knowledge is a dangerous thing.

mikeym

Theres plenty of old timers in there on older contracts and they cant be fcuked out.

While the younger lads on newer substandard contracts only do on average 2-5 years and get out.

The 21 year pension has been gone since 2004 and its been a game changer ever since, nobody sees the DF as a career just a job.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Guard just shot himself in the foot last week, with his own gun.

What kind of an idiot in all fairness would fire upon a member of the defence forces in Ireland? I am guessing that would have been Dessie O Hare(but open to correction), look where his buddy ended up in the seat next to him?

I think I have only heard of two negligible discharges where someone was seriously hurt.

Killed. Dessie was arrested subsequently after the Army checkpoint. He might have been caught earlier had he not escaped the Guards before this.

When you think about it, the Guards have always been to a certain extent, but become increasingly more so in the last decades increasingly under the political control and influence of the government, whoever that government may be. Gardai intelligence is probably better funded than the equivalent Defence Forces service. Gardai handlers had contact with a number of dissident Republicans, particularly in the Real IRA. In most other countries, that responsibility would have been either to a dedicated intelligence service or one associated with the military.

The running down and maligning of the Defence Forces could infact stem from a constitutional position that the military is beyond the control of government, except of course when it comes to purse strings. I've never looked at the constitution in depth however.

Green Peter

Dorothy Easy Nitrate wrote:

Killed. Dessie was arrested subsequently after the Army checkpoint. He might have been caught earlier had he not escaped the Guards before this.

Dessie was shot by Garda

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Green Peter wrote: »

Dessie was shot by Garda

Correct me if I'm wrong but was there not two confrontations, one up in Monaghan and one down in Tipperary? In both cases an accomplice was shot dead.

skooterblue2

Green Peter wrote: »

Dessie was shot by Garda

I was referring to the second time he was arrested in Urlingford Co.Kilkenny. That was the Irish Army, in all fairness to Dessie breaking ankles and getting shot in cars. He has done well for himself to stay alive

skooterblue2

Steyr 556 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but was there not two confrontations, one up in Monaghan and one down in Tipperary? In both cases an accomplice was shot dead.

Urlingford is close enough to Tipperary. Was he lucky both times or was he an informer on everyone else?

1o059k7ewrqj3n

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Urlingford is close enough to Tipperary. Was he lucky both times or was he an informer on everyone else?

I think he was lucky. That said he was isolated once he went into Portlaoise from the rest of the Republicans in there, they didn't have much to do with him for a long time if at all I heard.

The One Doctor

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its debatable, the cost of a contributing citizen is lot less than someone on social welfare, with a criminal record with substance problems (not saying that everyone on social welfare is the same). Busy people are much less likely to be burden to the state and their families/society.

People with no hope and self respect end up at the core of the tracksuit brigade. "why should I bother doing anything when there is no benefit for it?".

The military is increasingly irrelevant to Ireland and its population. We only maintain an army because of UN and NATO requirements. Granted, the Naval Forces are useful, but the army and air corps... I get the impression the govt is trying to kill them by a thousand cuts. That's money that could be better used elsewhere.

I don't mean to offend by the above but I probably have. I apologise, but it's still true.

skooterblue2

Steyr 556 wrote: »

..........they didn't have much to do with him for a long time if at all I heard.

In all fairness would you want to sleep or sit at breakfast next to a guy who chiseled off a dentists fingers? Imagine if he just decided he got out of the wrong side of the bed one morning?

skooterblue2

The One Doctor wrote: »

The military is increasingly irrelevant to Ireland and its population. We only maintain an army because of UN and NATO requirements. Granted, the Naval Forces are useful, but the army and air corps... I get the impression the govt is trying to kill them by a thousand cuts. That's money that could be better used elsewhere.

I don't mean to offend by the above but I probably have. I apologise, but it's still true.

No offence taken, There is massive amounts of money and a lot more to be spent but not on the troops.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

The One Doctor wrote: »

The military is increasingly irrelevant to Ireland and its population. We only maintain an army because of UN and NATO requirements. Granted, the Naval Forces are useful, but the army and air corps... I get the impression the govt is trying to kill them by a thousand cuts. That's money that could be better used elsewhere.

Well they (govt) shouldn't have signed up to PESCO then, because they have an obligation now to increase defence spending.

In order to defend Ireland's territorial waters (fishing rights, drugs trade) and to assist with some of our bigger neighbours adventures, for instance in Mali and beyond, we need to maintain a highly dedicated and professional military service. What the government wants to do is, as always, not bother paying anyone their worth, but still try and get the same level of service as before, and it just won't work.