Defence forces facing crisis

Tzardine

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

A Recruit would be a low skilled Rank, however, being a soldier is not a "low skilled job" no matter what you think.

To think (at a bare minimum) that a person entrusted in the use of weapons and live ammunition, the dual legalities of their use and the complex methods in which they may be used is a "low skilled job" is frankly...stupid on your part.

Never mind the rest of the job.

I worked with some ex DF staff that I would not trust with a sharp pencil, never mind a weapon.

Saying that training somebody in weapons handling means they are highly skilled and deserve high levels of pay is ridiculous. Anybody can be trained in what you have suggested quite easily.

I actually spent time working as a contractor with the US military in the Middle East. Met literally hundreds of soldiers all trained in weapons use, many of them were thick as two planks.

It's clear that this thread is full of DF staff that think they should be paid a fortune, with little justification.

If they are all so skilled then they will have no problem getting a well paid job elsewhere, so what is stopping them?

Outside of some specialist roles, being a soldier is a low skilled job, and no way should they be paid more than they are worth. We don't need half of the military that we have.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

I worked with some ex DF staff that I would not trust with a sharp pencil, never mind a weapon.

Saying that training somebody in weapons handling means they are highly skilled and deserve high levels of pay is ridiculous. Anybody can be trained in what you have suggested quite easily.

I actually spent time working as a contractor with the US military in the Middle East. Met literally hundreds of soldiers all trained in weapons use, many of them were thick as two planks.

It's clear that this thread is full of DF staff that think they should be paid a fortune, with little justification.

If they are all so skilled then they will have no problem getting a well paid job elsewhere, so what is stopping them?

Outside of some specialist roles, being a soldier is a low skilled job, and no way should they be paid more than they are worth. We don't need half of the military that we have.

Fantastic Idea, next time you are out in the arse-end of nowhere we will get you a load of west African mercenaries. I am suggesting General Butt Naked.

ILoveYourVibes

All they do really is go to foreign wars.


I mean its a dangerous worthwhile job etc. They are true heroes. But this country doesn't really need them.

And I have cousins in the army. Very little of their active duty careers are in this country. Its actually a great career if you want to travel.

Obv yes we need to take care of the people who are in the forces. But we don't really need them there.

And the Irish govt is NOT going to put the Irish army to keep a border on the Island of Ireland that isn't going to happen.

skooterblue2

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

All they do really is go to foreign wars.


I mean its a dangerous worthwhile job etc. They are true heroes. But this country doesn't really need them.

And I have cousins in the army. Very little of their active duty careers are in this country. Its actually a great career if you want to travel.

Obv yes we need to take care of the people who are in the forces. But we don't really need them there.

And the Irish govt is NOT going to put the Irish army to keep a border on the Island of Ireland that isn't going to happen.

Yeah that is what Poland was thinking in 1938. Dont need any of that new fangled technology or any of that stuff until they were double tapped by both Germany and Russia. Only a blind man cannot see the on coming problems that we are going to have in this country and the Gardai cant even cope with a few small gangs. The Irish government might not but the EU might to show strength with Britian

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Fantastic Idea, next time you are out in the arse-end of nowhere we will get you a load of west African mercenaries. I am suggesting General Butt Naked.

Funny you mention that. The US military took its own soldiers off security duties on bases in Iraq and replaced them with Ugandan soldiers for hire.

They did a fine job.

You see, they realised that it was a low skilled job that could be done by what was essentially a hired security guard. They were all weapons trained too of course.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

Funny you mention that. The US military took its own soldiers off security duties on bases in Iraq and replaced them with Ugandan soldiers for hire.

They did a fine job.

You see, they realised that it was a low skilled job that could be done by what was essentially a hired security guard. They were all weapons trained too of course.

They werent that ****hot in Libya when the US Embassy was over run. One of the many many little things that cost Hilary the election. They turned tail and ran

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

They werent that ****hot in Libya when the US Embassy was over run. One of the many many little things that cost Hilary the election. They turned tail and ran

Are you talking about Benghazi? If so you have a poor understanding of the incident ,you should read more about it.

For example, read about the two ex Navy Seals that were hired as contractors to look after the security (they were killed).

You could also read about how it was a failure by the US to respond to the intelligence leading up to the event.

If we had a similar attack on the US embassy here, our DF would be equally overwhelmed. As would the DF in most countries, nevermind in Libya after their own troubles.

mikeym

Lads we dont need a defence forces.

What happens when theres a greneade found in someones garden?

Who boards the trawlers 200 miles off the coast in s ****e conditions?

Who will go after the drugs smugglers at sea?

Who will be called up at short notice to provide assistance in bad weather or a VIP visit?

Ah but its a waste of tax payers money. :rolleyes:

skooterblue2

mikeym wrote: »

Lads we dont need a defence forces.

What happens when theres a greneade found in someones garden?

Who boards the trawlers 200 miles off the coast is ****e conditions?

Who will go after the drugs smugglers at sea?

Who will be called up at short notice to provide assistance in bad weather or a VIP visit?

Ah but its a waste of tax payers money. :rolleyes:

You forgot all them mountain rescues with Thermal night vision on the Helicopters for mountaineers.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

Are you talking about Benghazi? If so you have a poor understanding of the incident ,you should read more about it.

For example, read about the two ex Navy Seals that were hired as contractors to look after the security (they were killed).

You could also read about how it was a failure by the US to respond to the intelligence leading up to the event.

If we had a similar attack on the US embassy here, our DF would be equally overwhelmed. As would the DF in most countries, nevermind in Libya after their own troubles.

Oh yes but there were a lot of factors but them local mercenaries didnt put up any resistance in fact I think they disappeared. I seriously Doubt the Irish Army would as over whelmed as the local mercenaries were.

Tzardine

To be fair I don't think anybody is saying that we should have no DF.

There are of course some units that provide an important service, some of them listed above.

I object to the idea that we need almost 10,000 of them, and that they are vital in deterring another nation from attacking us.

There are 7,000 off in the army. We don't need this at all. A lot of the roles that the army do could be passed to the Gardai (subject to an increase in staff) and the civil defense.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

There are 7,000 off in the army. We don't need this at all. A lot of the roles that the army do could be passed to the Gardai (subject to an increase in staff) and the civil defense.

You want to give the Gardai guns after one of them shot themselves in the foot? They are far from competent with firearms. You want to trust them after the hatch job they did on jerry McCabe? Its not the same job as Army and needs a completely different approach.

Imagine if we passed most of the Gardais role to the defence forces, they would shorten the court system and reduce appeals.

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Oh yes but there were a lot of factors but them local mercenaries didnt put up any resistance in fact I think they disappeared. I seriously Doubt the Irish Army would as over whelmed as the local mercenaries were.

As I said, you really need to read more on the incident.

The only reports like you mention we're on Fox news, by multiple uncredited "sources".

Now why would Fox News try to damage the reputation of Clinton, a democrat, around election time ?

And who did the Select Committee on Benghazi claim was at fault in their 800 page report. Not Clinton, but the military.

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You want to give the Gardai guns after one of them shot themselves in the foot? They are far from competent with firearms. You want to trust them after the hatch job they did on jerry McCabe? Its not the same job as Army and needs a completely different approach.

Imagine if we passed most of the Gardais role to the defence forces, they would shorten the court system and reduce appeals.

I am suggesting that some of the roles, such as explosive ordnance etc could be moved to the Gardai. In the same way that they have specialist units already, eg forensic crime scene investigators and specialist divers.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

As I said, you really need to read more on the incident.

The only reports like you mention we're on Fox news, by multiple uncredited "sources".

Now why would Fox News try to damage the reputation of Clinton, a democrat, around election time ?

And who did the Select Committee on Benghazi claim was at fault in their 800 page report. Not Clinton, but the military.

Didnt they have an air craft carrier moored off shore with planes and what not? Apparently Hillary clinton didnt want to be disturbed. Apparently she couldnt be woken to make the call. Sometimes you need the secretary of state to green light these things

ger664

Calhoun wrote: »

Should they be paid more ? Yes but let's get real s private or anyone on low rank should not be in a position to be a sole earner for a family.

Like it or not allot of people in the private sector have to make do and have both parents working.

Should pay scale as they go up on responsibility ? Yes of course but there have to be limits .

Irrespective of rank or job. Anyone in gainful employment whether that be a private in the DF, a Private or Public sector worker, they should be able to house and feed their family on a single income.

Typical Government ploy of playing certain sections of society against one another so we don't all stand up together and overthrown the whole rotten capitalist society.

Homer

ger664 wrote: »

Irrespective of rank or job. Anyone in gainful employment whether that be a private in the DF, a Private or Public sector worker, they should be able to house and feed their family on a single income.

Typical Government ploy of playing certain sections of society against one another so we don't all stand up together and overthrown the whole rotten capitalist society.

So, by your logic, one person flipping burgers in a fast food joint should be paid enough to house and feed their family? best of luck with your flawed ideology

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You want to give the Gardai guns after one of them shot themselves in the foot? They are far from competent with firearms.

There are plenty of examples of the DF accidentally discharging their weapons.

Remember this one?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/investigation-under-way-after-soldier-accidentally-discharges-weapon-at-petrol-station-4497206-Feb2019/%3famp=1

Or what about the one previous during s prisoner transport.

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Didnt they have an air craft carrier moored off shore with planes and what not? Apparently Hillary clinton didnt want to be disturbed. Apparently she couldnt be woken to make the call. Sometimes you need the secretary of state to green light these things

You were claiming that it was the fault of the Libyan military contractors who ran away.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of the DF accidentally discharging their weapons.

Remember this one?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/investigation-under-way-after-soldier-accidentally-discharges-weapon-at-petrol-station-4497206-Feb2019/%3famp=1

Or what about the one previous during s prisoner transport.

Dont know anything about it.

skooterblue2

Tzardine wrote: »

You were claiming that it was the fault of the Libyan military contractors who ran away.

I said it was a lot of things by the local boy appear not to have done their jobs either

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Dont know anything about it.

Here you are:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/news/soldier-under-investigation-after-rifle-discharged-in-prisoner-escort-convoy-37821095.html

Tzardine

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I said it was a lot of things by the local boy appear not to have done their jobs either

Yes, according only to Fox news.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Ireland joined PESCO, and that means legally binding agreements to contribute, and thus, increase defence spending.

There's quite a few people who missed that.

We are going to spend more on our military. And without the UK as part of the EU, who historically, were keen to act as any kind of bulwark to an EU army (for a number of reasons), you can be sure that, a gradual development of an EU military force will become a reality.

A number of reasons will be made. Mainly counter the Russians, but really it will be to replace NATO, to replace all the chain of command, which, vertically integrated, at the very top, has the US, and who the French and Germans believe, cannot be trusted anymore. And if the EU is ever to be a genuine force to be reckoned with as it dreams to be by some, it cannot rely forever on US patronage.

If you weren't aware of our own history, the last 40-50 years in the North, then look at the Syrian Civil War. How many non-state actors contributed in that war? The idea that it's going to be a country invading us is gone. It's pure luck of geography that we haven't had more problems to date, and you can be sure as we become more involved in PESCO, in supporting French involvements in Africa for instance, that we will be seen as a legitimate target by terrorist groups - especially Islamist groups.

And without a properly equipped, trained and directed military force we will be the weak link in the EU chain. There is no need to bring in conscription or raise the forces to 20,000, but to drop further than it is, it's just stupid, and the experience being lost now is setting back the forces massively.

ger664

Homer wrote: »

So, by your logic, one person flipping burgers in a fast food joint should be paid enough to house and feed their family? best of luck with your flawed ideology

Whats flawed about ideology that a person that gets up every day and spends 8 hours flipping burgers (or whatever) should be able to provide food and a roof over their families head ?

In reality we have a flawed society. Low unskilled flipping burgers or private in the DF for a living are the new peasants in the current feudal system.

Calhoun

ger664 wrote: »

Irrespective of rank or job. Anyone in gainful employment whether that be a private in the DF, a Private or Public sector worker, they should be able to house and feed their family on a single income.

Typical Government ploy of playing certain sections of society against one another so we don't all stand up together and overthrown the whole rotten capitalist society.

Unfortunately this isn't the 1980's/1990's and as much as it would be great to get back to a world were this is possible its not.

I personally do not want our government to try and test the waters here by bumping the pay for low level military personal to be able to afford to live off of one income.

It sucks that things have changed but that is the way things have been for a long time.

BattleCorp

Green Peter wrote: »

What a load of crap. There are plenty of bad weapons handling examples in the DF and I know people in the DF who were in the wrong side of it. ERU and ARU are trained to a very high standard and regular members with firearms are trained highly. When was the last time an Irish soldier fired a shot in Ireland in the course of their duty. Gardai are often in armed situations and your arguement doesn't stand up. But it's a good story for your mates in the pub.

One of my army buddies (not sure of his rank to be honest but he is under 30 years of age) told me that they only have to go to the range twice a year and that most of his buddies look on it as a chore.

So, going to the range two times a year wouldn't make you very competent with a firearm.

Calhoun

ger664 wrote: »

Whats flawed about ideology that a person that gets up every day and spends 8 hours flipping burgers (or whatever) should be able to provide food and a roof over their families head ?

In reality we have a flawed society. Low unskilled flipping burgers or private in the DF for a living are the new peasants in the current feudal system.

If you understand anything about economics you will appreciate why a sole income from an unskilled person cannot cover room and board over a families head.

The fact is you are easily replaceable its only when the supply or the demand changes are you in a bargaining position.

Entering the army as a private from what i can see online has no educational requirements so you are essentially unskilled meaning that they have a wider pool to select from.

ger664

Calhoun wrote: »

Unfortunately this isn't the 1980's/1990's and as much as it would be great to get back to a world were this is possible its not.

I personally do not want our government to try and test the waters here by bumping the pay for low level military personal to be able to afford to live off of one income.

It sucks that things have changed but that is the way things have been for a long time.

Yes things have changed. We are servicing a debt to the tune of 5-6 Billion a year in interest that prevented the banks/bond holders from becoming peasants 11 years ago. Only we can change this but the will of the people is not there yet.

ger664

Calhoun wrote: »

If you understand anything about economics you will appreciate why a sole income from an unskilled person cannot cover room and board over a families head.

The fact is you are easily replaceable its only when the supply or the demand changes are you in a bargaining position.

Entering the army as a private from what i can see online has no educational requirements so you are essentially unskilled meaning that they have a wider pool to select from.

30/40 years ago it did.
If the current position of Economics continues in the next 50 years those with a degree will not be able to provide food and shelter on a single income.