Defence forces facing crisis

Calhoun

ger664 wrote: »

Yes things have changed. We are servicing a debt to the tune of 5-6 Billion a year in interest that prevented the banks/bond holders from becoming peasants 11 years ago. Only we can change this but the will of the people is not there yet.

Different issues and one is not related to another, its like how things have changed in the taxi sector another unskilled labor force but who were propped up for years with high income due to the very high barriers to entry.

We can not like the fact that we didn't burn the bank's/bond holders but it also doesn't mean that we can suddenly go back to paying enough for a single unskilled persons income to sustain a household. Even before the recession this couldn't happen.

Calhoun

ger664 wrote: »

30/40 years ago it did.
If the current position of Economics continues in the next 50 years those with a degree will not be able to provide food and shelter on a single income.

As said already things worked differently 30/40 years ago mainly because vested interests had the game rigged for them so they had an nice and easy life. Just everyone else could go and F themselves.

People on certain degrees today cannot afford to live off of one persons income due to the cost of living in some places. If it gets to a stage where a educational degree is not really valid there will be bigger societal problems that will need to be addressed.

StolenKrone

This isn't a crisis, it's a lack of purpose. This affects the majority of society today.

BattleCorp

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

When I was in I only went to the range twice a year but could disassemble the Gustav/BAP/STYR blindfolded. Always treated a weapon as if it were loaded regardless of how many hands it passed through before I received it.
Minor point but I left with a marksman badge on my tunic.

I'm not knocking the army but I'd be much happier if they went to the range more than twice a year.

Plumbthedepths

BattleCorp wrote:

I'm not knocking the army but I'd be much happier if they went to the range more than twice a year.

I can only offer my experience but, range practice only came up twice( economics) a year and we had to recover spent shells.
I was a good shot with the Steyr but won competition with the Gustav.
Having said all of the above all weapons were treated as loaded .

ger664

Calhoun wrote: »

People on certain degrees today cannot afford to live off of one persons income due to the cost of living in some places. If it gets to a stage where a educational degree is not really valid there will be bigger societal problems that will need to be addressed.

If you are a private in the DF or a burger flipper they currently have a societal problem that needs to addressed. When it effects a wider audience then maybe we might all stand together and address it.

ILoveYourVibes

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Yeah that is what Poland was thinking in 1938. Dont need any of that new fangled technology or any of that stuff until they were double tapped by both Germany and Russia. Only a blind man cannot see the on coming problems that we are going to have in this country and the Gardai cant even cope with a few small gangs. The Irish government might not but the EU might to show strength with Britian

This is silly.
The EU are not are concerned with the border as you might think.

The whole idea is we DON'T want a border.

I would like to see the army decommissioned largely.

Plumbthedepths

ILoveYourVibes wrote:

I would like to see the army decommissioned largely.

so you want an army without weapons?

Calhoun

ger664 wrote: »

If you are a private in the DF or a burger flipper they currently have a societal problem that needs to addressed. When it effects a wider audience then maybe we might all stand together and address it.

Well yes, effort = reward. If the barrier to entry for something is low then the reward generally will be low. Otherwise could you imagine the cost of a burger?

When it hits a wider audience and you no longer have the opportunity to educate, work hard and earn a decent income then yes we will stand together and address it.

We don't live in a communist society thankfully where there is value to nothing because we all get the same.

jimmycrackcorm

Gatling wrote: »

Pay them properly first and foremost ,
Defence forces families shouldn't have to rely on social welfare (FIS) to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table,
It's embarrassing and shameful how we treat our defence forces

Maybe I'm being awkward to point out the obvious.
But both the salaries of the defence forces and the social welfare supplements come out of public funds.

Sounds to me that the issue is that we don't know what or why our defence curve are about.

After all they can't really defend as we are a small country.

jimmycrackcorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Conscription is a stupid and incredibly expensive idea.
Pay and the contempt held by the government for the DF needs to be addressed.

In reality, how does paying 10,000 personel more money protect us from anything?

Green Peter

skooterblue2 wrote:

You want to give the Gardai guns after one of them shot themselves in the foot? They are far from competent with firearms. You want to trust them after the hatch job they did on jerry McCabe? Its not the same job as Army and needs a completely different approach.

skooterblue2 wrote:

Imagine if we passed most of the Gardais role to the defence forces, they would shorten the court system and reduce appeals.

How old are you?

riffmongous

Calhoun wrote: »

Well yes, effort = reward. If the barrier to entry for something is low then the reward generally will be low. Otherwise could you imagine the cost of a burger?

When it hits a wider audience and you no longer have the opportunity to educate, work hard and earn a decent income then yes we will stand together and address it.

We don't live in a communist society thankfully where there is value to nothing because we all get the same.

If it's not enough for people to live off then it's a problem, these jobs have to be done. Nothing to do with communism as no one is saying they need to be paid as well as every other job, just that there be a minimum standard of living attainable

Calhoun

riffmongous wrote: »

If it's not enough for people to live off then it's a problem, these jobs have to be done. Nothing to do with communism as no one is saying they need to be paid as well as every other job, just that there be a minimum standard of living attainable

People or families? and at what level? Sure if we are talking about a young single private male or female in a house share or living in the barracks they should have enough to live semi-comfortable.

However if we are talking about a private being able to pop out 3 kids with their partner and afford a mortgage and cost of living on one salary then no that doesnt make sense.

If members of the army move up through the ranks then of course they should be paid more to coincide with the extra work they are doing.

The post you quoted i was responding to a person who wanted a private or a burger flipper to be in a position that they could afford to support a family on it. People forget though how during those times the deck was stacked for certain individuals and their own crowd, the rest of society could go and ****e.

Jake5991

How much does a private get for his pension aftwe 21 yrs service ? Is it 28k a year

weldoninhio

_blaaz wrote: »

What should the government do to head off a staff shortage in the defence forces with immediate effect,given a hard border is a distinct possibility with brexit


Or will we be faced with an disturbingly large overtime bill due to poor management

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/60-of-defence-forces-staff-to-quit-in-two-years-939784.html

We aren't at war, so why do the number in the defence force matter?

weldoninhio

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You are blaming the DF for carrying out the orders of government.
I served in the military, you are required to obey all legal orders issued by your superior officers who are in turn ordered to carry out certain tasks by government.
What damage you think has been done is solely the responsibility of the politicians who tasked them to carry out the operations in the Med.

People trafficking wasn't legal last time I checked.

skooterblue2

weldoninhio wrote: »

We aren't at war, so why do the number in the defence force matter?

You dont understand. These are technical and maintenance staff involved in day to day running. You cannot go down to Addecco and just hire a Petty Officer with 10 years experience in marine diesel engines to work at sea for 3 weeks at a time. That PO has come up through the ranks and has experience he could not get in civilian life. Same with an armourer/instrumentalist calibrating optical equipment.

Its a poor show all round. This jackass cost saving on the gratuity and pensions is really biting them in the ass.

AlphabetCards

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You dont understand. These are technical and maintenance staff involved in day to day running. You cannot go down to Addecco and just hire a Petty Officer with 10 years experience in marine diesel engines to work at sea for 3 weeks at a time. That PO has come up through the ranks and has experience he could not get in civilian life. Same with an armourer/instrumentalist calibrating optical equipment.

Its a poor show all round. This jackass cost saving on the gratuity and pensions is really biting them in the ass.

The MoD does exactly this, it hires in armourers, calbration people etc - the DF isn't the only place in Ireland that trains people.

skooterblue2

weldoninhio wrote: »

People trafficking wasn't legal last time I checked.

You are right it isn't but you have to obey orders. Else it is a court martial and a trip to the Curragh for a few years and then dishonourable discharge and no one will hire you afterwards which is on your criminal record. Any guy I know of who was dishonourably discharged was either a waster, head the ball or was not mentally fit for service. Men with families and responsibilities dont have the luxury of principles.

skooterblue2

AlphabetCards wrote: »

The MoD does exactly this, it hires in armourers, calbration people etc - the DF isn't the only place in Ireland that trains people.

hmmmm tough one. Its just cheaper to pay the DF staff to do it right. Eventually we are heading down the route of private security contractors. It always starts with a chink in the armour. The DF are bleeding out high skill technicians. You need marine engineers on full time on a ship for running and maintenance out on the north Atlantic in all weathers? Come on. For the same job you would get 30% extra pay in civvy street with no weekends, time off for training, home every night for a home cooked meal. You cant compare the two.

riffmongous

skooterblue2 wrote: »

hmmmm tough one. Its just cheaper to pay the DF staff to do it right. Eventually we are heading down the route of private security contractors. It always starts with a chink in the armour. The DF are bleeding out high skill technicians. You need marine engineers on full time on a ship for running and maintenance out on the north Atlantic in all weathers? Come on. For the same job you would get 30% extra pay in civvy street with no weekends, time off for training, home every night for a home cooked meal. You cant compare the two.

It also depends how many people you need for the role I think, no point a military having an education system of its own to train one person year, if it's not a strict military role. Of course you can send new officers off to university but not everyone will have the aptitude or time for certain areas, so it makes more sense to hire in. Examples would be friends of mine who worked for their respective countries armies as a meteorologist and a political analyst for a few years as civilians

skooterblue2

riffmongous wrote: »

Examples would be friends of mine who worked for their respective countries armies as a meteorologist and a political analyst for a few years as civilians

Let me guess these were either in countries with large armies or large military presence. The more worrying thing is the current staff are NOT encouraging their families to take an interest. IT doesn't bode well for future recruitment. Many sons learn their trade at their fathers dinner table.

riffmongous

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Let me guess these were either in countries with large armies or large military presence. The more worrying thing is the current staff are NOT encouraging their families to take an interest. IT doesn't bode well for future recruitment. Many sons learn their trade at their fathers dinner table.

I would think the other way round, that countries that don't need to contract outsiders are the countries with the large militarys.

One was Germany, the other Austria.. I'm not sure if Germany is really considered large or not but Austria definitely isn't, it's still bigger than ours but then who's isn't. Both countries did have core units set up already, but they needed to hire in the outsiders to boost the manpower I guess because they wanted to do certain projects

riffmongous

Just saw a potentially serious consequence of the DF crisis on the news a minute ago, the Air Ambulance has to cut back it's working time

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1115/1091197-air-ambulance-disruption/

So 4 days per month for 4 months.. last year they had 220 callouts

skooterblue2

riffmongous wrote: »

One was Germany, the other Austria.. I'm not sure if Germany is really considered large or not but Austria definitely isn't, it's still bigger than ours but then who's isn't. Both countries did have core units set up already, but they needed to hire in the outsiders to boost the manpower I guess because they wanted to do certain projects

Germany has a massive budget and is a staple of an EU mission in Mali. Germany is after a massive military spend last year. One of the reasons for joining the army is to better yourself in civilian life. That you get the training so when you come out there is something waiting for me. Else you are just an asset to be used and be dumped. That doesnt encourage lads to sign up.

sk8erboii

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Germany has a massive budget and is a staple of an EU mission in Mali. Germany is after a massive military spend last year. One of the reasons for joining the army is to better yourself in civilian life. That you get the training so when you come out there is something waiting for me. Else you are just an asset to be used and be dumped. That doesnt encourage lads to sign up.

Huh? Literally one of the most common issue with veterans is inability to function back in society.

skooterblue2

sk8erboii wrote: »

Huh? Literally one of the most common issue with veterans is inability to function back in society.

Yup it happens. The vast majority of exDF members go on to successful civilian careers. There will be small minority that will have a problem with the transition and there will be a tiny number that will fall on really hard times. From what I have seen ONE is nowhere near equipped to deal with these problems as the British Legion when it comes to resources or experience.

Jake5991

Well im 8 yrs in defence forces now i joined the air corps and did a few yrs up there then i applied for a tt scheme and i finished off my apprenticeship that i was doing before the recession. I applied for overseas and nco s courses up there and never got one . This really annoyed me as i was driven and wanted to go up the ranks. The money is pretty poor in comparison to what other civil servants get . A lot of the time you are doing nothing just sitting around in your car. The dutys are 24 hrs and are horrible . You are locked in a room for the day and only get to go out for meals . There are courses to do its good for upskilling .
Im awaiting vetting for the guards im leaving because of poor pay and the fact that there is sweet fuc all to do most of the time . We dont get the same allowances then guards get either just look at what the guards got when the pope and trump came over . This teally pisses me off and upset me . That dope of a minister is an empty suit just another yes man . So why should i stay in the organisation when we are not being treated fairly.

CtevenSrowder

AlphabetCards wrote: »

The MoD does exactly this, it hires in armourers, calbration people etc - the DF isn't the only place in Ireland that trains people.

I don't believe the MOD hires in armourers, they train military personnel to do it. You are right about calibration, but it being the MOD they get charged an arm and a leg for the service no doubt.