Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Odhinn

THAT MAP IS OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT.

From 49 until 67 the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt.

Neither territory had anything to do with Israel at the time. The map is bull****.

Palestinians have more land now under their control than they have ever had in history.

..................

You must have missed this post. Get back to me.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110927405&postcount=446

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

One of those points might be when yer wan who joined a week ago and has yet to post outside this thread fails to understand what stealing land means.

..

No one stole land.

I don't know if you are not well read enough or not intelligent enough to understand what you read.

Arab Muslims were given three quarters of what was the real entirety of Palestine (not that fake map) today Arab Muslims still live on those three quarters.

Some just don't want to call themselves palestinians.

By the way during the 80s Palestinians insisted Jordanians were Palestinians. That there should be no division.

Yet people still support Hamas and the PA.

You can inform people that both Hamas and the PA are funded by Iran and Syria.

You can inform people that Muslim victims of Hamas are suing Iran and Syria for funding them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/04/25/360m-u-s-lawsuit-against-iran-and-syria-for-sponsoring-hamas-killers-in-israel/#37bb53222073

It makes no difference.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No one stole land.

................

Israel is colonising areas outside its recognised borders. Thats theft of land.

TaurenDruid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is NO water being stolen.

You realize Israel IS actually entitled legally to water from the west bank right?

They can also BUY it from Palestinians. Which they do.

Its not my fault English is your only language.

Maybe if you actually spoke Arabic you might be able to help Palestinians more.

Those pictures are recent its gaza NOW.

Here we go, right on cue!

Israel is stealing water.

I've posted, what, 8 examples of it? You've not refuted any of them, just shouted that there is no water being stolen. If that were the case, you'd be able to refute the actual examples given. You can't.

Some of the videos you posted are over 10 years old, as I pointed out a couple of days ago.

Refute the examples given, or stfu.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

You must have missed this post. Get back to me.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110927405&postcount=446

This is getting dumb.

Palestinians living in Israel don't pay tax there. Israel collects this tax and give it to Palestine.

That's what that is.

Also imports that arrive in Israel heading for Palestine....the customs duties are collected in Israel and Israel gives it all to Palestine.

The PA is supposed to collect tax in pa controlled territories.

They are notoriously dishonest though.

Palestine asked Israel to collect tax in the 90s israel agreed ..

But it was the PA who agreed to it.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Here we go, right on cue!

Israel is stealing water.

I've posted, what, 8 examples of it? You've not refuted any of them, just shouted that there is no water being stolen. If that were the case, you'd be able to refute the actual examples given. You can't.

Some of the videos you posted are over 10 years old, as I pointed out a couple of days ago.

Refute the examples given, or stfu.

Its not stolen Israel is LEGALLY entitled to that water its their allocation.

Both Palestinians and Israelis were given a legal allocation of water.

TaurenDruid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its not stolen Israel is LEGALLY entitled to that water its their allocation.

Both Palestinians and Israelis were given a legal allocation of water.

There you go again.

Refute the examples actually given. Or STFU.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is getting dumb.

Palestinians living in Israel don't pay tax there. Israel collects this tax and give it to Palestine.

That's what that is.

Also imports that arrive in Israel heading for Palestine....the customs duties are collected in Israel and Israel gives it all to Palestine.

The PA is supposed to collect tax in pa controlled territories.

They are notoriously dishonest though.

Unless it feels like not doing it.........
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine




Would you like me to put up the allegations and convictions of dishonesty against netanyahu and Ariel sharon? Moshe Katav? Ehud olmert? Shlomo benizri?

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

There you go again.

Refute the examples actually given. Or STFU.

Israel is legally entitled to all that water and actually more. That is what the Palestinians agreed to.

Israel GETS this much water because it has to give much of it to Jordan. Who has just asked for more BTW.

All the water that flows to the west belongs to Israel.

All the water that flows to the east belongs to Palestine.

Show me any water that flows to the east that israel takes?

The multiannual average of water within the aquifer is estimated at 679MCM, according to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip, signed in Washington, D.C., September 28, 1995.The allocation of water to the two sides from the Mountain Aquifer is conducted according to Article 40 of the
Civil Annex to the Interim Agreement.

According to the agreement (Article 40) Palestinians
are entitled to 196 MCM of self-extracted water per
year, plus an additional 31 MCM that Israel needs to
actively supply from its own water and with its own
infrastructure.

The allowance for Israeli settlers is
150 m3/year . The consumption is 47 MCM/year,
which means 134m3/year
of fresh natural water per
capita.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Israel is (..............) natural water per
capita.

Why don't you address the specific examples he put to you?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Israel is legally entitled to all that water and actually more. That is what the Palestinians agreed to.

Israel GETS this much water because it has to give much of it to Jordan. Who has just asked for more BTW.

All the water that flows to the west belongs to Israel.

All the water that flows to the east belongs to Palestine.

Show me any water that flows to the east that israel takes?



According to the agreement (Article 40) Palestinians
are entitled to 196 MCM of self-extracted water per
year, plus an additional 31 MCM that Israel needs to
actively supply from its own water and with its own
infrastructure.

The allowance for Israeli settlers is
150 m3/year . The consumption is 47 MCM/year,
which means 134m3/year
of fresh natural water per
capita.

This is just the westbank though. But since there are no settlers in gaza its not worth talking about.

And by the way i think telling me to 'STFU' or shut the **** up...pretty much sums up your level of intelligence.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Why don't you address the specific examples he put to you?

I did.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

So - another 7 posts (in a row!), more shouting down other people, and - of course - completely missing the point. Or deliberately diverting from it.

My extended family all have adequate housing - that doesn't mean that Ireland doesn't have a housing crisis or that I'm going to put up a homeless person in our spare room. Likewise, the water in a swimming pool in a city cannot supply the village or farmland that used to have a water supply - until an illegal settlement was built and diverted their water supply.

Here are the facts and examples you again ignored and failed to refute:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine#Water_use_of_Israelis_versus_Palestinians

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/palestinian-villages-hours-water-week-161023105150024.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/sep/14/west-bank-villagers-battle-water

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-why-doesn-t-israel-want-palestinians-to-have-running-water-1.6959524

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190307-israel-cuts-water-supply-to-2600-palestinians-in-jordan-valley/

Here are a few new ones:

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/03/israel-water-miracle-palestine-20143247252981587.html

EU briefing: Water in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

https://www.amnestyusa.org/pdf/mde150272009en.pdf

And there are dozens more...

None of these actually state Israel is stealing water.

In fact one of these this

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/573916/EPRS_BRI%282016%29573916_EN.pdf

Criticizes the Palestinians use of water for being inefficient and for their lack of development.

It criticizes Palestine for very poor waste water management.

If Palestinians make water undrinkable due to poor waste water management that is not israels fault.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/sep/14/west-bank-villagers-battle-water

The above article says the LAW is unfair not that Israel breaks the law.

It also says the conflict is to blame for breaking cisterns. (probably true on both sides)

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Israel is colonising areas outside its recognised borders. Thats theft of land.

Settlements in the west bank.

Yes I agree they are cray cray.

Israel should withdraw from the west bank. Set up the hardest border known to man between the west bank and Israel and we shall all live happily ever after.

They should also stop collecting water or anything else for palestine and let them collect their own taxes.

ILoveYourVibes

So what do people have to say when I tell you both Syria and Iran basically own the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. That they financially support them to the tune of millions each year?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

None of these actually state Israel is stealing water.
...................................

The notion that the region is suffering from water scarcity is a myth, he added: "We have been facing shortages for decades, and the reason is not natural, but man-made - meaning the Israeli occupation and Israeli control over water resources in the Palestinian territories."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/palestinian-villages-hours-water-week-161023105150024.html

Most villagers date the start of their battle over water with Israel to 1982, when Ariel Sharon, then minister of defence, transferred all the West Bank water systems to Mekorot, the Israeli national water company for the nominal price of one shekel.
The Oslo accords created a Joint Water Management Committee, which grants Israel a veto over water resource and infrastructure in the West Bank. The committee issued a joint declaration in 2001 "for keeping water infrastructure out of the cycle of violence".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/sep/14/west-bank-villagers-battle-water

The dream that came true, in the form of a two-inch water line, was too good to be true. For about six months, 12 Palestinian West Bank villages in the South Hebron Hills enjoyed clean running water. That was until February 13, when staff from the Israeli Civil Administration, accompanied by soldiers and Border Police and a couple of bulldozers, arrived.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-why-doesn-t-israel-want-palestinians-to-have-running-water-1.6959524





Need I go on?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So what do people have to say when I tell you both Syria and Iran basically own the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. That they financially support them to the tune of millions each year?

What has that to do with the colonisation of the occupied territories by Israel?

ILoveYourVibes

Quote:
The notion that the region is suffering from water scarcity is a myth, he added: "We have been facing shortages for decades, and the reason is not natural, but man-made - meaning the Israeli occupation and Israeli control over water resources in the Palestinian territories."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...105150024.html

This control was agreed to in the Oslo agreement by palestinians.

Palestine SIGNED over control to Israel. They had no choice they had no water system. It was a time before the world was interested in Palestine. No one would help them build a water system.

All of these articles are basically saying the current deal is unfair.

But its partially unfair because palestine doesn't use the water they have well. It doesn't treat it etc.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

What has that to do with the colonisation of the occupied territories by Israel?

Everything.

Its land controlled by despotic regimes vrs land controlled by democracy in the eyes of the US.

Btw i agree with you. Israeli settlements in the west bank should be relocated to Israel.

But palestine must recognize the state of Israel.

ILoveYourVibes

By the way EU law and thus Irish law lists Hamas and the PA as terrorist organizations.

The UN criticizes their human rights record in the west bank and Gaza.

As soon as Israel leave the west bank the people there are going to face a humanitarian crisis and everyone knows it.

Also israel has withdrawn from gaza ...and people in the west bank have a much higher standard of living than in gaza. Hamas has not exactly been successful.

TaurenDruid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

By the way EU law and thus Irish law lists Hamas and the PA as terrorist organizations.

The UN criticizes their human rights record in the west bank and Gaza.

As soon as Israel leave the west bank the people there are going to face a humanitarian crisis and everyone knows it.

Also israel has withdrawn from gaza ...and people in the west bank have a much higher standard of living than in gaza. Hamas has not exactly been successful.

Nope. Hamas, yes, but the EU doesn't so list the PA.

The UN criticises the human rights record of Israel and condemns their theft of land with the building of Israeli settlements.

Still waiting on you to refute the examples given of theft of water...

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Still waiting on you to refute the examples given of theft of water...

None of those examples say Israel is stealing water. They say the deal is unfair or Israel uses more water than palestine.

Israel is not stealing water. They are not using more water than they are legally entitled to.

You are surmising a fallacious conclusion.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn your OWN quote

The Oslo accords created a Joint Water Management Committee, which grants Israel a veto over water resource and infrastructure in the West Bank.

Exactly. They have legal rights.

They are NOT stealing.

You might think the law is unfair. But that is the law.

The Palestinians didn't have to sign an agreement to this law. But they did. They must have felt it was fair at the time because they signed the Oslo agreement. they agreed to it.

This is not stealing.

ILoveYourVibes

Quote:
The dream that came true, in the form of a two-inch water line, was too good to be true. For about six months, 12 Palestinian West Bank villages in the South Hebron Hills enjoyed clean running water. That was until February 13, when staff from the Israeli Civil Administration, accompanied by soldiers and Border Police and a couple of bulldozers, arrived.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...ater-1.6959524

It was technically illegal drilling well for water. That's an Israeli paper or an English version of it.

It violated the Oslo accord.

But many people in Israel sympathize with people in Palestine not being served by the Oslo accord that the PA signed up to.

ILoveYourVibes

Israel originally planned to give the West Bank to the Druze after Jordan left in 67 to make a Druze state.

It never happened though.

ILoveYourVibes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and criticism of the Israeli government. The concept is included in some definitions of antisemitism, such as the Working Definition of Antisemitism and the 3D test of antisemitism.

The 3D Test of Antisemitism is a set of criteria put forth by Natan Sharansky to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from antisemitism. The three Ds stand for Delegitimization of Israel, Demonization of Israel, and subjecting Israel to Double standards, each of which, according to the test, indicates antisemitism.[28][29] The test is intended to draw the line between legitimate criticism towards the State of Israel, its actions and policies, and non-legitimate criticism that becomes antisemitic

People in this thread subject Israel to HUGE double standards.

TaurenDruid

Yeah, bollocks to that.

Yes, we know about the Oslo accords. We know that Israel supplies water to Palestine. That's not in dispute.

We also know Israel steals water. Some of the examples given give specifics. You can't refute that, so you divert, shout, bring up red herrings, start debating things this thread isn't about, and now accuse us of being anti-semitic. Nice.

I fully admit to being anti-Zionist. But seeing as I've Jewish heritage and many Jewish Israelis also protest Israel's theft of land and water, your accusations don't fly.

You have failed, despite several requests now, to refute the examples given... QED. By bye now.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

We also know Israel steals water. Some of the examples given give specifics. You can't refute that, so you divert, shout, bring up red herrings, start debating things this thread isn't about, and now accuse us of being anti-semitic. Nice.

You have failed to show examples of where Israel steals water according the rules set out by Oslo accord.

You have resorted to telling me to shut up and **** off.

ILoveYourVibes

Also TD if you have Jewish heritage than you have a lot of Israeli relatives.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

When in doubt, retreat behind Tactic One.