Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

mad muffin

biko wrote: »

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Pakistan were among members of the UN’s 54-nation economic and social council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted to single out and condemn Israel yesterday as the only country in the world that violates women’s rights.

This is a link to a conservative site. Don't click it if you are a snowflake
https://www.redstate.com/slee/2019/07/25/un-passes-resolution-condemning-israel-womens-rights-violations-iran-saudi-arabia-among-voting-pass/

Damn. We are living in bizzaro world after all.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Israel is the biggest employer of Palestinians. And the Palestinian economy is almost totally reliant on the Israeli economy. Israel is supposed to provide them with a lot of public services too.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out boycotting Israel will hurt more Palestinians than it helps.

That was the argument against sanctions on apartheid south africa too. Look how that turned out.


Your "two sides" nonsense is just that. Israel is the aggressor by dint of its colonisation of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem, Golan and the rest. While its running an apartheid expansionist regime in these areas, it hasn't a leg to stand on.

Sean.3516

Greyfox wrote: »

Everyone knows the facts at this stage. Israel are committing genocide but there doing it in a nice way and they have America behind them so there getting away with it. The map of the region compared to decades ago clearly show Israel are stealing land and pretty much all the civilian and child deaths are on the Palestinian side. If a 13 year old palastinian child is at the Israli border the Israli soldier is allowed to kill the child even if he can't see a weapon. I like Jewish people but it was the Natzis who put them in concentration camps and not the Arabs

Genocide? Over 1 million arabs live in Israel and are not discriminated against in any way. Not a single jew lives in the Gaza Strip. The govt of Israel forcibly evacuated every jew from there when they handed it back in 2005. And all they got in return for it were rockets. This is why they won't hand back the West Bank. The same thing is guaranteed to happen.

The genocide notion comes from the fact that there was a mass displacement of arabs after Israel declared independence. The reason for this movement had nothing to do with Israel declaring independence and everything to do with the arabs in palestine combined with the armies of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt launching a war against Israel. The UN literally gave them ( the arabs ) a state and they wouldnt accept it. They just couldnt tolerate the idea of a jewish state beside them. The same ideology permeates Hamas and the Palestinian leadership. This is why they fire rockets, call for intifadas and subsidize the families of suicide bombers. They can't tolerate a jewish state beside them. Israel is happy to trade land for peace when they have reason to believe they will actually get peace in exchange for the land.

pavb2

Not saying the Palestinians are completely blameless but a few years ago I watched the footage of the killing of Jamal al Jura by the IDF and it's still one of the most wretched things I've ever seen and I wouldn't watch it again.

Taking a simplistic view I would have thought that the sufferings inflicted on the Jews particularly under the Nazis would have made them much more sensitive and considerate to other races but the opposite seems to be the case.

There is no other word for a regime which conducts itself in the manner that led to the killing of Jamal and subsequent denial of events other than barbaric.


Quote from the piece, "Aside from the circle of bullet holes – most of them below waist level – the expanse of wall is largely unscarred. This appeared to suggest that the Israeli fire was targeted at father and son."

Link without video


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/23/israeli-report-denies-death-al-dura

mad muffin

After the UN report I would now double down, and never condemn Israel. I stand with Israel. Without Israel the world would be a worse place. They are a beacon of hope in an otherwise violent and inhuman part of the world. Where you can be killed for simply not wearing the right head covering or for not praying to the right god.

A place where the value of women is lower than that of a camel. A place where LGBTQ’s are routinely killed. A place where governments encourage terrorist to go forth and kill anyone that isn’t Muslim.

Israel alone stands high above this. Israel alone with the help of its allies holds back the tide.

Since the foundation of Israel they have been fighting for their survival by any means necessary. Because it’s enemies fight a dirty war. A war without honour. So Israel responds in kind.

Even Egypt and Jordan have closed their borders to the Palestinians. They voted in a terrorist organisation to represent them. But they are not to blame.

No. Their Arab neighbours that attacked Israel. In the wars since Israel’s nationhood instead of agreeing to a two state existence. They declared death to Israel. Death to the Jews. That only served Israel to strengthen its resolve. To never give an inch. Then the terrorist organisation Hamas made it crystal clear that it will see Israel destroyed and the Jews driven to the sea.

The Palestinians didn’t/don’t stand a chance in this climate of hate towards Israel.

Cordell

There will never be peace between them. The only reason the body count is favorable to Israel is that they're better equipped, and not because Palestinians are more peaceful. They are at war and supporting or condemning either of them means aligning with one side.

NKante

People are being lied to about Israel. It's a pretty severe and sustained assault.

If you're not following events, the media is being exposed more and more every day for their fake news and having activists masquerading as journalists.

Big tech companies are also complicit. We're being manipulated by boosted and de-boosted opinions, shadow bans, search manipulations.

The palestinian narrative is a house of cards that will eventually fall. The truth always wins out.

Rubberchikken

no.
im an Israeli supporter and nothing anyone says will change that.

ILoveYourVibes

NKante wrote: »

People are being lied to about Israel. It's a pretty severe and sustained assault.

If you're not following events, the media is being exposed more and more every day for their fake news and having activists masquerading as journalists.

Big tech companies are also complicit. We're being manipulated by boosted and de-boosted opinions, shadow bans, search manipulations.

The palestinian narrative is a house of cards that will eventually fall. The truth always wins out.

There is the truth of their experience though. And the truth of those who want to move forward.

Nothing can happen without acknowledging Palestinian pain and experience and Israeli pain and experience.

I don't think two sides really even feel satisfied without that reconciliation.

Odhinn

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Genocide? Over 1 million arabs live in Israel and are not discriminated against in any way.

Ye reckon?


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-inside-israeli-movement-fighting-jewish-arab-intermarriage-1.6744186



https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/israeli-drive-to-prevent-jewish-girls-dating-arabs-1.490477


https://972mag.com/campaign-calls-on-arab-men-to-keep-out-of-jlem-away-from-jewish-girls/54263/


https://972mag.com/jewish-women-cant-volunteer-at-night-to-avoid-contact-with-arabs/80527/


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-public-pool-separates-bedouin-from-jews-1.6180142


https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/entry-ban-israeli-city-park-provokes-apartheid-warnings



https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israel-elections-latest-racism-arab-israelis-palestinian-racism-benjamin-netanyahu-lukid-a8760871.html


https://www.amnesty.ie/israel-opt-demolition-of-palestinian-village-of-khan-al-ahmar-is-cruel-blow-and-war-crime/



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/13/AR2010111303776.html?hpid=topnews


https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/another-israeli-swimming-pool-caught-refusing-entry-arab-citizens


https://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building/20100812_whole_village_demolished_in_jordan_valley


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7136068.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4198754.stm





A small sampling, going over the last 20 years. I could throw in the discrimination in housing, schools funding and the rest but ye have enough to keep you going there.

NKante

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is the truth of their experience though. And the truth of those who want to move forward.

Nothing can happen without acknowledging Palestinian pain and experience and Israeli pain and experience.

I don't think two sides really even feel satisfied without that reconciliation.

There is no doubt that peace needs to be achieved and that both sides have (now) suffered.

But if you're looking for the instigators, it's not the Israelis.

Israelis are historically and morally in the right. It really isn't even a debate when one actually researches the whole sorry mess.

The simple fact is, had the Israelis not won the wars that the Arabs started, we would be talking about the second Holocaust of the Jewish people. People don't understand, the Arab world tried to carry out a Holocaust and failed.

I used to be far more neutral with the whole conflict, a real "both sides have done wrong and need to negotiate" kind of guy - bu the rejection of the Clinton peace plan killed that off. That was the final straw for me. Clinton was raging and savaged them in his book.

The subsequent rejections were just confirmation.

Ken.

You should be allowed criticizes Israel without being labeled anti Jewish. If I think your an arsehole, I don't care if you are christian,Jewish,Muslim,white,black,yellow or x nationality. None of those were a basis for me thinking you are an arsehole. It's your personality that makes you the arse, nothing else.

Gatling

Cordell wrote: »

There will never be peace between them. The only reason the body count is favorable to Israel is that they're better equipped, and not because Palestinians are more peaceful. They are at war and supporting or condemning either of them means aligning with one side.

Even when they weren't better equipped and outnumbered by several foreign aggressors they still essentially won ,
There will be never peace till the likes of the states ,Iran , Russia and a few others complety remove themselves

Odhinn

Gatling wrote: »

Even when they weren't better equipped and outnumbered by several foreign aggressors they still essentially won ,
There will be never peace till the likes of the states ,Iran , Russia and a few others complety remove themselves

You left out the US.



There'll never be peace while they're colonising.

Gatling

Odhinn wrote: »

You left out the US.

Please read the full because I didn't leave them out .

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

Ye reckon?





A small sampling, going over the last 20 years. I could throw in the discrimination in housing, schools funding and the rest but ye have enough to keep you going there.

You've used some terribly biased sources there that wouldn't pass even the simplest of impartiality tests.

That said, there is discrimination in Israel.

There's discrimination in every country. Black people in the USA will say they feel discriminated against.

There is nothing unique about Israel and discrimination. In fact what I would say is that given the hostility between Arab and Jew. Given the various wars they have fought, given that their cultures clash - the Arabs and Jews in Israel get on remarkably well.

I would go as far as saying the Muslim Arabs in Israel are more integrated into society than Muslims in the UK.

The Arabs are more represented in Israeli society than ever before.

I tend to look for videos like this, rather than 'news' articles in this day and age of fake news and opinion pieces masquerading as fact.

Odhinn

Gatling wrote: »

Please read the full because I didn't leave them out .

Sorry, mis-read it.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

You've used some terribly biased sources there that wouldn't pass even the simplest of impartiality tests.

Btselem? The Washington post? The BBC? You're clutching at straws there.

holyhead

Having been to Israel three times in the last decade I admire the country. What they have built in just over 70 years is remarkable. Tel Aviv is the most liberal city in the Middle East. It is a very progressive country and its people hard working and driven. I wouldn't agree with the annexation of the West Bank by stealth. As a people I found Israelis not to be that friendly. Getting into and out of the country is a harrowing experience in terms of interrogation.
As has been said it must be recognised that Israel is surrounded by states which would love to see it's demise. The Palestinians have legitimate cause for feeling hard done by given it's land was annexed to create the state of Israel. Without Holocaust it's unlikely Israel would exist. Israel is robust in the defence of it's territory and given it's proximity to hostile countries that's understandable. We should be allowed to condemn Israel without being called anti semitic. Israel has given the international community grounds to condemn her but a boycott is pointless.

Odhinn

holyhead wrote: »

Having been to Israel three times in the last decade I admire the country. What they have built in just over 70 years is remarkable. Tel Aviv is the most liberal city in the Middle East. It is a very progressive country and its people hard working and driven. I wouldn't agree with the annexation of the West Bank by stealth. As a people I found Israelis not to be that friendly. Getting into and out of the country is a harrowing experience in terms of interrogation.
As has been said it must be recognised that Israel is surrounded by states which would love to see it's demise. The Palestinians have legitimate cause for feeling hard done by given it's land was annexed to create the state of Israel. Without Holocaust it's unlikely Israel would exist. Israel is robust in the defence of it's territory and given it's proximity to hostile countries that's understandable. We should be allowed to condemn Israel without being called anti semitic. Israel has given the international community grounds to condemn her but a boycott is pointless.

It's the continuing annexation of territory, rather than that seized in 1948, that creates the difficulties.


A boycott is far from pointless, as its taken as a very serious threat by the Israeli state. It took about 30 years for the South African boycott to come into its stride, but when it did it helped push the white minority regime to the negotiating table.

ILoveYourVibes

NKante wrote: »

You've used some terribly biased sources there that wouldn't pass even the simplest of impartiality tests.

That said, there is discrimination in Israel.

There's discrimination in every country. Black people in the USA will say they feel discriminated against.

There is nothing unique about Israel and discrimination. In fact what I would say is that given the hostility between Arab and Jew. Given the various wars they have fought, given that their cultures clash - the Arabs and Jews in Israel get on remarkably well.

I would go as far as saying the Muslim Arabs in Israel are more integrated into society than Muslims in the UK.

The Arabs are more represented in Israeli society than ever before.

I tend to look for videos like this, rather than 'news' articles in this day and age of fake news and opinion pieces masquerading as fact.

That's a great channel

larrykinney

NKante wrote: »

rGiven the various wars they have fought, given that their cultures clash - the Arabs and Jews in Israel get on remarkably well.

I would go as far as saying the Muslim Arabs in Israel are more integrated into society than Muslims in the UK.

The Arabs are more represented in Israeli society than ever before.

So shouldn't one multi-ethnic state be considered? There is a huge Arab minority in Israel who work and contribute and co-operate with their Jewish neighbours. Many Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship every year and are turned down. If the current Palestinian population were granted Israeli citizenship and absorbed into Israel, the Jews would still be the majority ethnic group so they would have nothing to fear, in other words, democracy. No settlements would need to be dismantled. You would, however, need to stop importing religious fanatics from Eastern Europe, Russia and the USA. The current situation with checkpoints, settler-only roads, occupying forces aiding settlers in burning Palestinians out of their homes, destroying olive groves, poisoning wells etc. as well as the ongoing siege of Gaza, can only be described as Apartheid.

Odhinn

larrykinney wrote: »

So shouldn't one multi-ethnic state be considered? There is a huge Arab minority in Israel who work and contribute and co-operate with their Jewish neighbours. Many Palestinians apply for Israeli citizenship every year and are turned down. If the current Palestinian population were granted Israeli citizenship and absorbed into Israel, the Jews would still be the majority ethnic group so they would have nothing to fear, in other words, democracy. No settlements would need to be dismantled. You would, however, need to stop importing religious fanatics from Eastern Europe, Russia and the USA. The current situation with checkpoints, settler-only roads, occupying forces aiding settlers in burning Palestinians out of their homes, destroying olive groves, poisoning wells etc. as well as the ongoing siege of Gaza, can only be described as Apartheid.

Virtually every Israeli party has 'the protection of the majority' as part of its platform. In plain terms that means the rejection of accepting the Palestinian population in the occupied territories as Israeli citizens, as they would then form the majority within israel. The Israeli expansionists desire the land, sans its occupants.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

It's the continuing annexation of territory, rather than that seized in 1948, that creates the difficulties.

There's quite a bit of myth involved there too. I mean Israel is substantially smaller now that it was in 1967, I'm sure you'd agree.

The return of Gaza, Sinai and parts of the WB would not suggest a country that was gobbling up land.

There hasn't been a new settlement built since the 1990's. The current building that goes on, is within existing settlement boundaries.

The actual physical land taken up by settlement buildings is around 3% of the WB. Much of the WB is actually empty land.

It's also split into 3 areas. About 90% of Palestinians live under Palestinian control.

Worth noting that the first time Palestinians ever had a government and their own autonomous territory to govern, was under Israel.

holyhead

Odhinn wrote: »

It's the continuing annexation of territory, rather than that seized in 1948, that creates the difficulties.


A boycott is far from pointless, as its taken as a very serious threat by the Israeli state. It took about 30 years for the South African boycott to come into its stride, but when it did it helped push the white minority regime to the negotiating table.

In South Africa the wrong was on one side. The situation in Israel is more nuanced.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

There's quite a bit of (...............) was under Israel.

Expanding settlements is as much annexation of territory as starting new ones. There's been a massive increase in settler population since the early 1990's.


The Palestinians are allowed control whatever Israel allows them too. It's not a relationship of equals.


Sinai was returned because it was too large an area to hold, and risked a war of attrition if occupied, which the smaller israeli population couldn't sustain.

The withdrawal from Gaza was due to the fact that it took far too many resources to protect 8,000 settlers. It was decided to focus those resources on the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, where the Gaza settlers also relocated to.

Odhinn

holyhead wrote: »

In South Africa the wrong was on one side. The situation in Israel is more nuanced.

Not given Israels continued expansionism, no. Plus the treatment of the palestinian population in the occupied territories in many way mirrors that suffered by the African and "coloured" population in the days Apartheid South Africa.

holyhead

Odhinn wrote: »

Not given Israels continued expansionism, no. Plus the treatment of the palestinian population in the occupied territories in many way mirrors that suffered by the African and "coloured" population in the days Apartheid South Africa.

The Apartheid situation in South Africa was an internal situation. Israel faces threats from outside it's borders so the two situations in my humble opinion are not comparable.

end of the road

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Civilians have been killed in almost every armed conflict.

What distinguishes cases of civilian deaths and collateral damage in various wars are whether or not they were intentional or preventable.

in israel's case they are generally intentional.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Whenever Israel launches an airstrike on a Palestinian target it's always a response to rockets fired into Israel.

this is often not the case. israel decide to strike the palestinian territories first.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It's been well documented that Hamas deliberately places their ordinance in civilian facilities like schools and hospitals to be used as human shields.

this is not correct. weapons were placed in a UN school and removed once found. this was then jumped on by israel who decided to turn it into a claim that weapons are stored in civilian areas so as to justify targeting civilians. it is israel making the claim that weapons are stored in civilian areas. the IDF i believe have been known to use civilians as human shields as well. there was a video ages ago showing palestinian children being used as such shield.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

In this case if you're Israel and you're objective is to destroy these rockets and you kill civilians, that's Hamas's fault for putting them in harms way.

Also in the case of the border clashes we saw when the US Embassy was moved. Hamas was literally taking civilians with their own operatives mixed in and herding them in the direction of an armed border fence manned by soldiers who have orders to let nothing get through. Combine that with Hamas operatives huring explosive kites and balloons over the fence, there's a point at which the IDF has no choice but to open fire and again if civilians die, it's Hamas's fault for putting them in harm's way.

no, it is israel's fault for knowingly and deliberately targeting and killing civilians.

Odhinn

holyhead wrote: »

The Apartheid situation in South Africa was an internal situation. Israel faces threats from outside it's borders so the two situations in my humble opinion are not comparable.

If only Israel would stay within its borders, you'd be correct.



It has peace agreements with Egypt, Jordan. Syria doesn't constitute a threat. It doesn't share a border with Iran.