Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

When in doubt, retreat behind Tactic One.

You cannot deny you hate Israel and have nothing good to say about it.

You hold Israel to double standards. Completely different standards to Palestinians.

Some of the things and rhetoric you use straight up demonizes Israel.

You portray Israel as wicked or threatening. That is the only language you ever use to describe Israel.

When in reality its just a country going through a conflict. Many countries are currently going through conflict.

There are many bad things going on in China Sudan...none of them are demonized in the media the way Israel is.

Iran just tortured an Iranian business man into confession he was an Israeli spy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-49284659

I haven't heard you ONCE criticize Palestinians not even Hamas or the Palestinian Authority.

I think that is reasonable grounds.

You remind me of the people who support Sinn Fein.

Israel certainly is not perfect but its not a totally evil country. Its a country that is dealing with a very difficult conflict in a very unstable region with countries that fund that conflict for their own interests.

It hasn't done everything right its made mistakes and some questionable moral choices.

But then so has Palestine.

Your judgement is skewed.

I mean that fake map for example. You haven't conceded its fake. Nor that falling for it would CERTAINLY INDICATE that you are less than educated about the region and that ALL your 'education' has come from a source that wants to lie to you and doesn't think you are hard to fool.

Dravokivich

The settlements are a conflict?

ILoveYourVibes

Dravokivich wrote: »

The settlements are a conflict?

The settlements are cray cray I agree.

They seem to be mostly cray cray Israeli hippies any of them i have met like totally out there.

They like the desert idea ...being nearer nature.

The hardest core ones are like back the earth etc god will allow to grow things here.

We don't need pesticides ...or to ask the Palestinians govt's permission ...then they hand you a bong.

Some people just go for the better quality of life.

Its nuts though.

It was/is part of the conflict though.

TaurenDruid

The "fake" map you keep talking about? The one that's published on the website of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions? (I guess they're just anti-semites, though).

I don't even have to debunk your arguments, though - you're using a playbook that's already been debunked by people with more time available than I have.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You cannot (/...................)and doesn't think you are hard to fool.

As I said - When in doubt, retreat behind Tactic One.


The map is accurate.

Odhinn

TaurenDruid wrote: »

The "fake" map you keep talking about? The one that's published on the website of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions? (I guess they're just anti-semites, though).

I don't even have to debunk your arguments, though - you're using a playbook that's already been debunked by people with more time available than I have.

Think he's talking about the map put up by an Israeli NGO that I linked. Obviously a bunch of rabid hitler worshipping anti-semites.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

The "fake" map you keep talking about? The one that's published on the website of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions? (I guess they're just anti-semites, though).

I don't even have to debunk your arguments, though - you're using a playbook that's already been debunked by people with more time available than I have.

Dude that is a fake map.

This is a real map of British mandate palestine.

Are you denying that Gaza was part of Egypt and the West bank was part of Jordan between 49 and 67?

This is historical fact.

I don't care WHO says otherwise. No historian will say otherwise.

The fact that cannot tell the difference between true and false information is disturbing.



It was a fact that Gazans and people in the west bank had either jordanian or Egyptian passports.

Many still do.

The west bank is named so by Jordan.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Think he's talking about the map put up by an Israeli NGO that I linked. Obviously a bunch of rabid hitler worshipping anti-semites.

Its a fake map. That organization has been criticized for spreading lies.

Its a fringe political NGO that fuels conflict.

Do you deny that british mandante palestine was twice as big as that map says?

Or that the west bank was a part of jordan and Gaza a part of Egypt??

ILoveYourVibes

May I ask and clarify something here?

Do people deny that Jordan was once part of Palestine? And do people deny that the west bank was part of Jordan from 60 to 67 and gaza part of Egypt? Or if you want to put it this was that the west bank was occupied by Jordan and gaza occupied by Egypt?

Do you deny palestine has more land under its direct rule now than ever?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its a fake map. That organization has been criticized for spreading lies.

................

What lies would these be?

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

What lies would these be?

By omitting the occupation of Gaza and West bank by other arab countries.

By showing a map of palestine that was half the size it originally was.

By putting palestine on a map between 49 and 67 because it should have ben Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the west bank.

Palestinians had zero political control over this land at that time. They had either Jordanian or Egyptian passports.

The only reason Egypt and Jordan left was because the lost the six day war with Israel.

Arab countries that were occupying Palestinian land attacked Israel. Israel won. Those countries then ran from palestinian land leaving Palestinians to themselves for the first time in history.


Before that Palestinians have been ruled by the Ottomans the British etc the Jordanians and the Egyptians.
You should really know this.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

By omitting the occupation of Gaza and West bank by other arab countries.

By showing a map of palestine that was half the size it originally was.

By putting palestine on a map between 49 and 67 because it should have ben Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the west bank.

Palestinians had zero political control over this land at that time. They had either Jordanian or Egyptian passports.

The only reason Egypt and Jordan left was because the lost the six day war with Israel.

The map I'm referring to only starts in 1967. Are you stating that its figures on land seizures are incorrect?

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

The map I'm referring to only starts in 1967. Are you stating that its figures on land seizures are incorrect?

It says 47.

See for yourself.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It says 47.

See for yourself.

Again - are you stating the figures for land seizures are incorrect?

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Again - are you stating the figures for land seizures are incorrect?

Yes. It says 47. Then through 49 etc all the way through 67 no mention of Egypt or Jordan.

See for yourself. It cannot be correct.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes. It says 47. Then through 49 etc all the way through 67 no mention of Egypt or Jordan.

See for yourself.

Thats not the map I posted at all.


https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Thats not the map I posted at all.


https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html

You did.



But that map in the link is also incorrect too.

That is a strange rabbit hole to go down.

The only reason gaza and the west bank is not under one govt is because Syria and Iran fund hamas over fatah. They would be uniting if it weren't for that division.

So who is dividing now?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You did.



But that map in the link is also incorrect too.

That is a strange rabbit hole to go down.

The only reason gaza and the west bank is not under one govt is because Syria and Iran fund hamas over fatah. They would be uniting if it weren't for that division.

So who is dividing now?

....but the settlements are aggressive expansionist Israeli policy, and while that goes on, its fairly irrelevant where the Palestinians get a few bob.

ILoveYourVibes

This is an up to date map of Israel now. Its from national Geographic.

This is map of just before 67 it shows the egyptian admin gaza part and jordan is represented all in green inc the west bank.

You can see how much land israel has.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

....but the settlements are aggressive expansionist Israeli policy, and while that goes on, its fairly irrelevant where the Palestinians get a few bob.

True.


But most of the people who go there go because its got a higher standard of living. Or they are far out hippies tripping out on weed and kabbalah.

As for where Palestinians get a few bob etc.

Why does Iran keep Palestine divided? Why does it keep Hamas and Fatah divided?


Why is fatah constantly in a screaming match with Iran??
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fr/contents/articles/originals/2018/12/palestinian-authority-iran-fatah-palestinian-division-.html

Why not support the PA if you support palestine??

You won't be able read the article so I will paste it

RAMALLAH, West Bank — There's no end in sight to the tensions between the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority (PA) and Iran, especially in light of Iran’s improving ties with Hamas. The PA pegs that improvement as the main reason for its failed attempts at reconciliation with Hamas and Hamas’ ongoing control of the Gaza Strip.

Azzam al-Ahmad, a member of Fatah’s Central Committee and the PLO's Executive Committee, made scathing comments against Iran on Nov. 27, saying it's the No. 1 sponsor of the rival Palestinian factions' division.

The Fatah-led PA controls the West Bank. Hamas, which is considered a terrorist group by the United States, the European Union, Israel and several other countries, ousted Fatah from ‎‎the Gaza Strip in 2007. The PA, however, still controls Gaza's purse strings and uses its financial power to try to control Hamas.

Ahmad said Iran is interfering with the internal Palestinian struggle by funding Hamas directly. He made his comments on the same day Iran announced, during the Islamic Unity Conference in Tehran, its decision to financially “adopt” families of Palestinians killed and wounded in the Great Return protests along the border with Israel. The weekly protests began last March.

Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/12/palestinian-authority-iran-fatah-palestinian-division-.html#ixzz5wTYmSWFz

In a TV interview, he said, “If Iran had good intentions, it would have adopted all of the Palestinian revolution martyrs. But it did not even adopt one martyr in Jerusalem, only those who were killed in Gaza, because it wants to ensure the continuation of the division — its trump card in political maneuvers.”

Ahmad’s remarks came after the Nov. 26 failure of the last round of reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas in Cairo under the auspices of Egyptian intelligence.

Iran didn't take long to respond to Ahmad’s comments. Iranian Foreign Ministry adviser Hussein Sheikh al-Islam told the Risala newspaper, which is affiliated with Hamas, “The adoption decision was made based on the recommendation of the Return and Resistance Committee, one of the Islamic Unity Conference committees,” adding that it is currently helping 500 families.

“We make sure to send our funds in secure ways so that they reach their recipients and beneficiaries, rather than through unreliable channels,” he said, in a jab at the PA.

The PA’s strained relations with Iran are likely to drag on. Fatah spokesman Atef Abu Seif told Al-Monitor, “Our stance toward Iran is based on several arguments. First, we refuse any external interference in the Palestinian political decision, which is exactly what Iran is doing by supporting Hamas.”

He added, "Any foreign support that does not pass through the PA further deepens the division and contributes to turning the Gaza Strip into an independent entity."

He criticized the decision to send aid to the Gaza Strip and not the West Bank. “Many martyrs fell in the West Bank and Jerusalem, but [their families] were not supported. The funds were allocated only to the Gaza Strip, which is part of the discrimination in the struggle. This is unacceptable, as it's not right for foreign parties to [interfere with] the Palestinian struggle.”

Abu Seif also charged that Iran is trying to forge ties with Palestinians apart from the Palestinian leadership, noting that Iran and Hamas are both parts of what is known as political Islam.

The PA has long accused Iran of deepening the Palestinian division and supporting Hamas, or of sending donations or aid to the Palestinians by bypassing the PA.

In February 2016, Iranian Ambassador to Beirut Muhammad Fath Ali announced Iran’s support of Al-Quds intifada that broke out in the West Bank. He promised to offer $7,000 to every family that lost a member in Jerusalem, and $30,000 for every family whose house was demolished by Israel.

This statement sparked a media clash between the two sides. Sheikh al-Islam, the Iranian Foreign Ministry adviser, said Iran would send funds through its own channels, which prompted PA government spokesman Nabil Abu Radina to retaliate by saying that bypassing the legitimate Palestinian leadership violated the law, including international law, and was unacceptable interference in Palestinian and Arab domestic affairs.

In examining the tense relationship between the PA and Iran, one must factor in other relationships in the region. Saudi Arabia has closed the door to rapprochement with Hamas because of Hamas' relationship with Iran, while the PA is keen to maintain a good relationship with the Saudi kingdom.

The PA is also diligent not to anger the Saudis in many cases. For example, despite accusations that top Saudis were involved in the October assassination of Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey, the PA issued a brief statement saying that Saudi Arabia is a state of justice, values and principle; the statement didn't even mention Khashoggi’s case. The PA has also kept silent on the Saudi war in Yemen. This can't be separated from Riyadh’s financial support to the PA, most recently with a $60 million transfer Nov. 11 to the Palestinian government's budget.

Hani al-Masri, director of the Palestinian Center for Policy Research and Strategic Studies (Masarat), told Al-Monitor, “Palestinians shouldn't be aligned with any of the region’s axes. We need to have the support of both the Arab countries and the region to our cause.”

He added, “Although the Palestinian leadership is more inclined toward the Saudi axis, it didn't sever relations with Iran. Palestinians should realize that Iran is not an enemy. This is a very important point. We have common [interests] with Iran, but Tehran’s project in the area does not benefit Arabs,” he said.

Masri stressed the importance of Palestinians strengthening ties in the region — including with Iran and Saudi Arabia — to serve the Palestinian cause.

Ahmad Jamil Azam, an international relations professor at Birzeit University near Ramallah in the West Bank, told Al-Monitor, “The tense relations between the PA, Fatah and Iran are nothing new. The PA believes that the same Palestinian faction that's dragging its feet in achieving reconciliation is receiving funds from Iran."

He added, “The PA is also discontented with the fact that, while many countries that support Hamas, like Turkey and Qatar, have maintained channels of dialogue with the Palestinian leadership, Iran makes no overtures in this direction."

Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/12/palestinian-authority-iran-fatah-palestinian-division-.html#ixzz5wTYxpg87

Its rather odd don't you agree ??

The PA has long accused Iran of deepening the Palestinian division and supporting Hamas, or of sending donations or aid to the Palestinians by bypassing the PA.

Also why is Hamas in syria? seems a bit of a dangerous favor to do?

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is an up to date map of Israel now. Its from national Geographic.

This is map of just before 67 it shows the egyptian admin gaza part and jordan is represented all in green inc the west bank.

You can see how much land israel has.

Its post 1967 wherein lies the source of the current conflict.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

True.

.............................

Precisely, and trying divert attention to that by pointing at ffairly inept organisations is being a bit dishonest.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Its post 1967 wherein lies the source of the current conflict.

This first map is priot to 67. You can see because gaza is marked egyptian admin. You can also see the west bank is part of Jordan.

Yes its similar to the 67 one because israel has exactly the same amount of land

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Precisely, and trying divert attention to that by pointing at ffairly inept organisations is being a bit dishonest.

You are accusing ME of doing what you YOU just did.

Israel except for those settlements has exactly the same amount of land as it ever had.

Palestine as a ruling country has now more than it ever had.

To say otherwise is dishonest.

The Palestinian campaign is a very dishonest campaign.

ILoveYourVibes

Prior to 67




Now.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are accusing ME of doing what you YOU just did.

Israel except for those settlements has exactly the same amount of land as it ever had.

Palestine as a ruling country has now more than it ever had.

To say otherwise is dishonest.

The Palestinian campaign is a very dishonest campaign.

Seriously, GTF.





...sez the defender of Israeli aggression.

ILoveYourVibes

By the way recent maps cannot ever contain settlements.

These do not.

The reason they cannot contain them is because they are constantly moving or being demolished or being rebuilt.


It wouldn't allow for accurate cartography as they are illegal settlements

But there are roughly 380,000 people who are settlers.



This is a very very rough map from aljazeera. Honestly no idea how accurate it is or could be.

So don't hold me to it. This settlements are very transient.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

Seriously, GTF.

Odhinn please no need for that . calm down.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

By the way recent maps cannot ever contain settlements.

These do not.

The reason they cannot contain them is because they are constantly moving or being demolished or being rebuilt.


It wouldn't allow for accurate cartography as they are illegal settlements

But there are roughly 380,000 people who are settlers.



This is a very very rough map from aljazeera. Honestly no idea how accurate it is or could be.

So don't hold me to it. This settlements are very transient.

Obv there are zero settlements in Gaza just the west bank along the border.

Why should really talk about why Iran attacks the PA and why often the west supports hamas over the pa.

TaurenDruid

Dude - you know there's an "Edit" button? There's really no need to bombard the thread with your constant posts, one after the other. Stream of consciousness runs away with you and you need to add something? If noone has replied yet, just edit your last post.

And there's no need to repost the same image multiple times.

BTW - the thread topic is "Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?" If you want to discuss "Why are Hamas and Fatah not united" start your own thread.

Bottom line: "Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?" Until such time as it returns the land it has stolen, stops building new illegal settlements (they're not "transient"), and stops being an apartheid state, yes, it should be condemned and boycotted.