Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

hamsin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

There comes a point when we really need to stop feeding the trolls...

You and other haters of Israel cannot stop talking about "stolen land", but fail to answer how much land have Israelis "stolen" in the last 40 years.
You and other haters of Israel cannot stop talking about "stolen water", but fail to answer how much water did Israel "stolen" last 10 years.
You are trolls here.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

BTW - the thread topic is "Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?" If you want to discuss "Why are Hamas and Fatah not united" start your own thread.

Bottom line: "Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?" Until such time as it returns the land it has stolen, stops building new illegal settlements (they're not "transient"), and stops being an apartheid state, yes, it should be condemned and boycotted.

Quite right TD there is an edit button thank you for reminding me to use it.

I shall endeavor to do so. Please forgive me.

Hamas and fatah are quite within the reasonable realms of any discussion connected to Israel and palestine.

Hamas and Fatah are the governments that the palestinians have democratically elected.

If we DONT discuss them then we are demeaning Palestinians and acting like European savoirs.

Its seriously problematic to the Palestinians in fact most of them think its a major reason why they have not defeated Israel the split between Hamas and Fatah. This split is mostly caused by Iran. The palestinians could govern themselves much better and stand up to Israel much more if Iran would let Hamas and Fatah unite.

Some settlements are very transient its how they evade international detection. Trust me. Some are more permanent true.

but if you think there are not settlements out there moving around to avoid international detection you are very naive.

They tend to be ones who will hand you the bong.

hamsin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

I've Jewish heritage

Jewish heritage?
According to you and other haters of Israel, Jews cant sleep good, if they don't murder Palestinian children.
According to you and other haters of Israel, Jews cannot live without stealing land and water.
It's not Jewish heritage, dude. It's anti-Jewish heritage

ILoveYourVibes

hamsin wrote: »

It's anti-Jewish heritage

I do wonder has generations of antisemitism influenced this debate in Europe.

I am not saying consciously but unconsciously.

end of the road

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

None of those examples say Israel is stealing water. They say the deal is unfair or Israel uses more water than palestine.

Israel is not stealing water. They are not using more water than they are legally entitled to.

You are surmising a fallacious conclusion.

israel steals land. israel steals water. israel engages in colonisation and ethnic cleansing.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism






People in this thread subject Israel to HUGE double standards.

criticising israel and it's government is not antisemitism.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You cannot deny you hate Israel and have nothing good to say about it.

You hold Israel to double standards. Completely different standards to Palestinians.

Some of the things and rhetoric you use straight up demonizes Israel.

You portray Israel as wicked or threatening. That is the only language you ever use to describe Israel.

When in reality its just a country going through a conflict. Many countries are currently going through conflict.

There are many bad things going on in China Sudan...none of them are demonized in the media the way Israel is.

Iran just tortured an Iranian business man into confession he was an Israeli spy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-49284659

I haven't heard you ONCE criticize Palestinians not even Hamas or the Palestinian Authority.

I think that is reasonable grounds.

You remind me of the people who support Sinn Fein.

Israel certainly is not perfect but its not a totally evil country. Its a country that is dealing with a very difficult conflict in a very unstable region with countries that fund that conflict for their own interests.

It hasn't done everything right its made mistakes and some questionable moral choices.

But then so has Palestine.

Your judgement is skewed.

I mean that fake map for example. You haven't conceded its fake. Nor that falling for it would CERTAINLY INDICATE that you are less than educated about the region and that ALL your 'education' has come from a source that wants to lie to you and doesn't think you are hard to fool.

israel holds itself to a high standard but does not act in such a manner. it claims to be a western style democracy, yet in reality behaves more like some of it's neighbours, in it's treatment of certain people, mainly the palestinians. it expects us to believe it is a western style democracy but shows enough to say it's not quite that.
israel demonises itself via it's land theft, colonisation, ethnic cleansing and all other breaches of human rights and international law it commits. i believe they are in breach of over 60 UN mandates, or international and human rights laws, or probably all of those together.
israel is wicked and threatening toards the palestinians.
israel isn't simply going through a conflict, it is the main instegator and aggresser.
countries like china and iran don't claim to be western style democracies, everyone knows of their human rights abuses and i would think most are in condemnation.
our judgement is perfectly fine, based on all of the facts and realities.
the map you call fake is correct.
the antisemitism allegation toards people who criticise israel no longer works. people are waking up to israel's behaviour and tactics to shut down those who call them out.

TaurenDruid

hamsin wrote: »

Jewish heritage?
According to you and other haters of Israel, Jews cant sleep good, if they don't murder Palestinian children.
According to you and other haters of Israel, Jews cannot live without stealing land and water.
It's not Jewish heritage, dude. It's anti-Jewish heritage

Whatevs. I'm not engaging with a single-purpose troll account that's never posted outside of this thread.

ILoveYourVibes

end of the road wrote: »

israel steals land. israel steals water. israel engages in colonisation and ethnic cleansing.

[/QUOTE]


Israel doesn't take more water than the Oslo accord allows even if you include settlers.

Apart from settlers Israel has exactly the same amount of land now as it ever had.

There are 2 million Palestinians living in Israel.

There are no Jews living in Palestinian controlled lands.

TaurenDruid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I do wonder has generations of antisemitism influenced this debate in Europe.

I am not saying consciously but unconsciously.

Nah, really, stop playing the anti-Semitism card. It won't wash. Ireland has evolved quite separately from the rest of mainland Europe, for a start. We just love the underdog, though.

Ireland has historically had a tiny Jewish population and yes, there were historically pockets of anti-Semitism. But the only thing currently resulting in anti-Israeli sentiment among people who care about foreign affairs in Ireland is seeing how Israel treats the Palestinian people. We have a colonial past and can see the absolutely clear parallels between British occupation here, and Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.

It's exactly why you'll see pro-Palestinian grafitti and murals in nationalist areas in Belfast, and pro-Israeli grafitti and murals in unionist areas.

TaurenDruid

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Israel doesn't take more water than the Oslo accord allows even if you include settlers.
[/QUOTE]

You keeping on saying this doesn't make it true. Refute the examples given by multiple trustworthy sources or STFU.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

By the way recent maps cannot ever contain settlements.

These do not.

The reason they cannot contain them is because they are constantly moving or being demolished or being rebuilt.


It wouldn't allow for accurate cartography as they are illegal settlements

But there are roughly 380,000 people who are settlers.


.............

620,000 - 380,000 in the West Bank, the rest in Arab East Jerusalem.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I do wonder has generations of antisemitism influenced this debate in Europe.

I am not saying consciously but unconsciously.

It's colonialism, nothing to do with anti-semitism, which you are constantly trying to drag into the thread.

ILoveYourVibes

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Nah, really, stop playing the anti-Semitism card. It won't wash. Ireland has evolved quite separately from the rest of mainland Europe, for a start. We just love the underdog, though.

The Dublin orthodox synagogue gets attacked about every three months.


You sure.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

It's colonialism, nothing to do with anti-semitism, which you are constantly trying to drag into the thread.

Not really. Only a quarter of Israelis have any European in their background at all.

Also if you really want to help Palestine build a strong nation you need to unite hamas and fatah. Otherwise it will be on its knees forever.

Its a tough region they need to be strong enough to stand up to Egypt Jordan and Israel.

If they are divided they aren't gonna make it its just THAT simple.

The region is no place for the weak.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not really. Only a quarter of Israelis have any European in their background at all.

The settlers in the Occupied territories are colonists. Colonialism is an evil that should be stood on as soon as it rears its head, regardless of who is doing it.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

The settlers in the Occupied territories are colonists. Colonialism is an evil that should be stood on as soon as it rears its head, regardless of who is doing it.

I have told you numerous times I don't agree with the settlements.

Uniting hamas and fatah might get rid of them though.

hamsin

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Whatevs. I'm not engaging with a single-purpose troll account that's never posted outside of this thread.

Pathetic.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have told you numerous times I don't agree with the settlements.

Uniting hamas and fatah might get rid of them though.

There was no hamas before the mid 80's and things weren't any better - perhaps worse.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

There was no hamas before the mid 80's and things weren't any better - perhaps worse.

Yes things have gotten a lot better for Palestinians since the 80s thankfully.

That whole lebannon situation was a disaster. That whole Abu Nidal thing.

end of the road

israel doesn't abide by the Oslo accord, and posters have shown you that israel does in fact steal water.
israel has a lot more land now then it is supposed to have. the land it stole in it's 1967 act of aggression in the aim of expansion apart from gaza.
israel claims the settlements as part of it's territory, it constructs those settlements and provides force to steal the land and homes of the actual owners of the land.
how many palestinians there are in israel or how many jews there are in palestine is not relevant.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have told you numerous times I don't agree with the settlements.

Uniting hamas and fatah might get rid of them though.

nope.
israel going back within it's borders is the only thing that will get rid of them. it is israel who is stealing the land from people and building the settlements.

ILoveYourVibes

.
israel has a lot more land now then it is supposed to have. the land it stole in it's 1967 act of aggression in the aim of expansion apart from gaza.

No it wasn't. Egypt and Jordan attacked israel.

It was the six day war.

On 30 May, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armoured units in Jordan.[48] They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent. On 1 June, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on 4 June the decision was made to go to war.

Egypt, Jordan, and Syria joined forces to attack and destroy Israel.

They lost in six days.

Egypt and Jordan had been occupying all of Palestine.

ILoveYourVibes

end of the road wrote: »

Israel doesn't take more water than the Oslo accord allows even if you include settlers.

Apart from settlers Israel has exactly the same amount of land now as it ever had.

There are 2 million Palestinians living in Israel.

There are no Jews living in Palestinian controlled lands.

israel doesn't abide by the Oslo accord, and posters have shown you that israel does in fact steal water.
israel has a lot more land now then it is supposed to have. the land it stole in it's 1967 act of aggression in the aim of expansion apart from gaza.
israel claims the settlements as part of it's territory, it constructs those settlements and provides force to steal the land and homes of the actual owners of the land.
how many palestinians there are in israel or how many jews there are in palestine is not relevant.



nope.
israel going back within it's borders is the only thing that will get rid of them. it is israel who is stealing the land from people and building the settlements.[/QUOTE]


It wants to. It did with gaza it will remove illegal settlements too.

And it will be a blood bath between fatah and hamas.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

.................

It wants to. It did with gaza it will remove illegal settlements too.

And it will be a blood bath between fatah and hamas.

It moved the colonists from Gaza to (mostly ) the West Bank. That's concentrating your efforts, not trying to end the grabbing of land.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

It moved the colonists from Gaza to (mostly ) the West Bank. That's concentrating your efforts, not trying to end the grabbing of land.

Em nope. Not at all.

Totally different people totally different backgrounds. Totally different languages for one.!

By the way the withdrawal in 2005 ended up costing 900 million. It was expected to take weeks. It was done in ONE.

The withdrawal from West bank will cost much more than that.

ILoveYourVibes

Funny how Egypt never withdrew from the west bank and gave it to the palestinians.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Em nope. Not at all.

Totally different people totally different backgrounds. Totally different languages for one.!

By the way the withdrawal in 2005 ended up costing 900 million. It was expected to take weeks. It was done in ONE.

The withdrawal from West bank will cost much more than that.

They didn't move them for the craic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

They didn't move them for the craic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm

Poppy cock ..

The withdrawal dates back to 1979.

ILoveYourVibes

The only thing stopping Israel from withdrawing west bank settlers is the very extreme passionate wishes of the people who have bought houses there.

They will mount legal challenges.

And do you know.

If Jordan Syria and Egypt has not attacked Israel in 67 NONE of this would have happened.

Eygpt would still have gaza and Jordan would still have the westbank.

James Brown

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So what do people have to say when I tell you both Syria and Iran basically own the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. That they financially support them to the tune of millions each year?

Israel shoots dead unarmed protesters, shoots at first respondents and a Canadian journalist and steals land.
If you want to start a thread on Syria or Iran have at it.

ILoveYourVibes

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Israel shoots dead unarmed protesters, shoots at first respondents and a Canadian journalist and steals land.
If you want to start a thread on Syria or Iran have at it.

Hamas killed a bus full of tourists in Egypt.

ILoveYourVibes

Odhinn wrote: »

620,000 - 380,000 in the West Bank, the rest in Arab East Jerusalem.

No its nowhere near that.

Its roughly 380,000