What electrical stuff is allowed to DIY?

crae

Hi,
Just bought a house and wondering what would be legal to do yourself when it comes to electricity and what would require a certified electrician doing it?

I’m not winging it, I know what I’m doing and have some college training in electricity. I’ve owned houses back in Sweden and done lots of work before.

Rule in Sweden was you can change existing things. Change lightswitch, existing sockets, etc or add external electrical sockets, lightswitches and cables. But not add new cabling or sockets inside walls without certification.
And not touch anything multiphase or over 250V

Any idea what’s the rules here?

Lackadaisical

It's relatively similar to what you're describing above:

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2018/0823/987065-5-ways-your-renovation-could-be-breaking-the-law/

https://safeelectric.ie/help-advice/controlled-restricted-electrical-works/

https://safeelectric.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/REC-Factsheet-April-2016.pdf

Basically anything that involves adding circuits to or modifying the distribution board (fuse box / consumer unit) is out of bounds.

You can do like-for-like replacement of fittings and so on.

"Special locations" covers bathrooms so you need a REC to carryout modifications to bathroom wiring.

Other than that, bear in mind that there may be significant differences between the Irish and Swedish wiring regulations, particularly around earthing/grounding systems. Ireland generally uses TN-C-S as standard, while many continental countries use TT systems (sometimes encountered but not common in Ireland) and even IT crops up in certain Nordic countries, which is something that would normally only be encountered in specialist installations here.

They're all perfectly safe, when installed correctly, but just remember that with things like wiring in bathrooms and plumbing systems there are requirements in Ireland for bonding of pipes to earthing systems to ensure that all metal surfaces are at the same potential i.e. equipotential zone. The main thing is that you shouldn't really be going anywhere near the fundamentals of earthing systems as a DIY person but just be aware of them as it can be quite dangerous to not understand them and apply the wrong methodology to the wrong system.

There are differences in things like how light switching is done, particularly in older installations - common neutrals and switched lives so you may not have any neutral wires behind the switch plates at all.

Final ring circuits are also permitted here using a similar setup to the UK, although they're less common than in Britain. It's absolutely vital to ensure you don't inadvertently split a ring, turning it into two undersized radials fed from the same MCB. This can happen where you disconnect a socket part way along a ring, breaking the continuity but everything will continue to work. The result is that because the ring's broken its current carrying capacity is reduced and you can have risks of overheating.

Also do not connect anything to a ring directly, unless it's done through a 13amp fused spur. They are protected by high amperage (typically 32amp) MCBs and you will be exposing appliance flexes to currents they can't handle. This is the reason why Irish/UK plugs contain fuses - basally think of it as a high powered, RCD protected power bus, with local fusing at each connection point (typically 3 or 13amp)

You also cannot mix lighting and sockets on the same circuits (I'm not sure if that's permitted in Sweden, but I know it is in some continental systems).

3-Phase 400V is very rarely encountered in domestic systems and where it is used, you'd really want to get a REC involved. The majority of supplies here are large amperage single phase. It may become more common with EV charging in the future and heavy heat pump installations, but in most cases where 3-phase is used, the phases are split up and used as sources of 230V single phase. Things like hobs and ovens are always connected to high amperage single phase supplies.

There's also a *lot* more requirement for local isolating switches in Irish and British regulations than most continental ones that I've encountered. That means things like switches for ovens, hobs, integrated appliances like dishwashers, fridges etc that have to be accessible and also all-poll fan isolators to ensure you can safely clean bathroom fans are used.

You'd also find a lot of things that are plugged in in continental countries e.g. ovens, hobs, certain water heaters and so on are always hardwired here. Sometimes hardwired to a fused, switched spur too - (does the same job as a 13amp plug, just hardwired).

Finally, be ware of RGI regulations as you can't work on any gas installation - including the electrical side of it without approval.

Also be ware that the Irish Wiring Regulations (currently ET:101 (2008)) are about to undergo a major update in IS 10101 which comes into effect in the months ahead. See the thread on this forum.

crae

Thanks, for the links and for the great extensive answer that got me thinking on a few things.

We don't use gas in Sweden, so I would never touch that or any electrical systems connected to that (if there is any)
And know water and electricity don't mix well, so anything kitchen/bathroom I would leave to certified people.

Don't think there is any 400V in this house. But as I mentioned, wouldn't touch that because wouldn't be allowed in Sweden so that's just ingrained in me.

We have the same with light switches and sockets, never on same circuits. Don't know if that's regulation or just common sense. But never done.

Regarding ring circuits, been reading up now and that is different then what's common in Sweden. Thanks for this info.
Need to check wiring in the house, how they've done it.

what I've mostly looking to do to start with is just replace all the old sockets and switches to more modern (nicer-looking) ones. So it would be like-for-like replacements.

Reisers

Id argue a few points there

13amp spurs off rings would be to protect the branch cable- appliance cord is protected by 13amp plug.

Lighting on socket circuits - is there a reg says you can't, maybe there is?

Cooking appliances on 3P installations may well have an option for 3P connection which would be preferable

Lackadaisical

Reisers wrote: »

Id argue a few points there

13amp spurs off rings would be to protect the branch cable- appliance cord is protected by 13amp plug.

Lighting on socket circuits - is there a reg says you can't, maybe there is?

Cooking appliances on 3P installations may well have an option for 3P connection which would be preferable

I was more referencing to hardwiring appliances to a ring. I've seen that done a few times by continental DIY people, as it's not unusual to connect appliances directly to a 16/20A radial (plugs aren't fused so using a hardwired, unfused connection would be normal.)

I encountered panel heaters on French 16 amp simple switch plates wired by unfused spurs to a 32amp ring!!

3 phase isolation would be required locally for your cooker and it's pretty ugly! I'm not aware of any non industrial spec 4-pole isolation switches that could be used in a domestic kitchen. The cooker will still use 230V just puts different elements in different phases. In an Irish context L1, L2 and L3 are just bridged (usually with a supplied bus bar that fits into the terminals) and connected to a single high current L1.

There's also no particular reason why using 3 phase would be preferable for a heating appliance, if sufficient single phase supply is available. It's used on the continent because single phase supplies are typically much smaller than here and 3 phase is required for relatively modest high load appliances.

The distribution network here is designed around the idea of fairly high current single phase supplies to domestic / small commercial premises. So load balancing is often done by putting houses on different phases. Also 3 phase isn't available in some areas where 2 wire single phase MV is used.

s7ryf3925pivug

Can I add an external socket which is plugged into an internal socket via a hole drilled in the wall? (Effectively a fixed extension cable really.)

2011

Lackadaisical wrote: »

There's also no particular reason why using 3 phase would be preferable for a heating appliance, if sufficient single phase supply is available.

There is actually. 3 phase loads are always preferred as they help balance the load across all 3 phases. This is just one reason why 3 phase supplies are brought to boards that supply only single phase loads.

2011

Jesus CoolS Gnat wrote: »

Can I add an external socket which is plugged into an internal socket via a hole drilled in the wall? (Effectively a fixed extension cable really.)

You could, but it would be considered very bad practice.
Permanently connected sockets should not be fed via a plug.
Once you start down this road it inevitably leads to further guntering.
Do yourself a favor and pay to get it done properly.

Reisers

In a small installation like a domestic 3P installation you can count the large loads ,shower, cooker and heatpump maybe.

You might therefore get away with 1 per phase like you're saying.

Once you move onto the larger 3P installation you need to balance everything using 3P DBs and 3P loads where possible

Bruthal

Reisers wrote: »

13amp spurs off rings would be to protect the branch cable- appliance cord is protected by 13amp plug.

It would, but 13A fuses are not that smart. If the 13A plug has a 13A fuse in it, which fuse is now protecting the flex more?

Appliances are unlikely to have their flex overloaded anyway.

Reisers

Bruthal wrote: »

It would, but 13A fuses are not that smart. If the 13A plug has a 13A fuse in it, which fuse is now protecting the flex more?

Appliances are unlikely to have their flex overloaded anyway.

From a rules perspective I mean, the 13amp spur was brought in to protect the branch off the ring.

As you say the appliance cord is connected to a fixed load

Bruthal

Reisers wrote: »

In a small installation like a domestic 3P installation you can count the large loads ,shower, cooker and heatpump maybe.

You might therefore get away with 1 per phase like you're saying.

Once you move onto the larger 3P installation you need to balance everything using 3P DBs and 3P loads where possible

There is nothing to get away with. 1 per phase is better than all on 1 phase. In the overall national grid, the balance will be very precise once the practice of balancing reasonably well is done at the final circuit level, or even at houses per phase level.

Reisers

Bruthal wrote: »

There is nothing to get away with. 1 per phase is better than all on 1 phase. In the overall national grid, the balance will be very precise once the practice of balancing reasonably well is done at the final circuit level, or even at houses per phase level.

I think you misunderstood my general point

Bruthal

Reisers wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my general point

That wouldnt be a first with myself anyway

s7ryf3925pivug

2011 wrote: »

You could, but it would be considered very bad practice.
Permanently connected sockets should not be fed via a plug.
Once you start down this road it inevitably leads to further guntering.
Do yourself a favor and pay to get it done properly.

That's the preexisting setup beside my backdoor and I find it convenient having the external sockets, if only used occasionally.

Aside from it being a hacky DIY approach that wouldn't impress an electrician, are there practical reasons not to do this?

2011

Jesus CoolS Gnat wrote: »

That's the preexisting setup beside my backdoor and I find it convenient having the external sockets, if only used occasionally.

I don’t doubt that this is very convenient. But when working with a potentially lethal voltage it is more important to do things properly.

Aside from it being a hacky DIY approach that wouldn't impress an electrician, are there practical reasons not to do this?

Obviously my advice is falling on deaf ears. Once you hear the word “gunter” that should be enough when it comes to mains voltage electricity. I have had the misfortune of seeing what happens when things go horribly wrong due to convenient short cuts being taken.

Lackadaisical

One of the biggest issues being fixed wiring that's constantly plugged and unplugged and flex isn't suitable for fixed installations.

Also worth bearing in mind that Irish weather (particularly the further west you go) can be extremely unforgiving to outdoor fittings. Make sure you use a high IP rating and pick a sheltered spot to install it. Also make sure the right type of cable is used, glands are fitted and properly closed, if possible enter through the bottom of the socket and ensure that there's no way for water to run down a cable and into the building / wiring. If you're wiring through the back of the socket, you need to ensure it's sealed adequately.

I've actually seen outdoor stuff done by an REC with Twin and Earth flat cable jammed into round glands and the fittings ended up shorting (outdoor lighting and also outdoor sockets).

If you pick an area with likelihood of driving rain/driving drizzle e.g. a south/southwest facing wall in an exposed area it can very easily end up in a socket full of water.

The other thing is you should ideally be able to isolate them from inside the house - so perhaps connection via a 13amp switched spur could be convenient.

It all needs to be done properly though there's no point in taking shortcuts or using inappropriate cables or materials.

Obviously it has to be RCD protected too.

Reisers

If I recall correctly flex is allowed for fixed wiring

s7ryf3925pivug

This looks like the existing setup I have:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Masterplug-BG-Outdoor-Mains-Socket-Power-Kit-RCD-Protected-Plug-Weatherproof-/362086262024

2011

Reisers wrote: »

If I recall correctly flex is allowed for fixed wiring

It is even encouraged, you will see it used for an immersion, cooker, shower pump etc...

Lackadaisical

The main thing is to ensure that you've sufficiently sized cable to cope with the load e.g. many extension cords would absolutely not be able to cope with 20amp+ which could easily occur if someone plugs in two heavy appliances into a double socket.

So, you either need local fusing i.e. connection via a fused, switched spur or a fused plug, or you need properly rated cable as per any socket.

The other issue is just make sure the socket and wiring is properly located so it's not going to get a whack with something like a wheelbarrow or a lawnmower and that any surface wiring is properly clipped up or trunked and clipped.

Definitely don't site it somewhere where it's going to be in driving rain either. You'd be amazed at what Irish drizzle can do ...

Reisers

2011 wrote: »

It is even encouraged, you will see it used for an immersion, cooker, shower pump etc...

I mean the fixed wiring itself not the connection of fixed appliances

2011

Reisers wrote: »

I mean the fixed wiring itself not the connection of fixed appliances

I was agreeing with you.

Besides, all of the examples I gave (immersion, cooker, shower pump) are part of the fixed wiring.

fabiom91

Hi there, I'm new. Can I add that if Certified Electricians weren't Certified Thieves, there would be no need to embark on any DIY electrical works that we're not 100% confident with?

JL spark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118350819#Comment_118350819

Good on ya , paint us all with one brush ,

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351039#Comment_118351039

He has to. A real painter would likely be too expensive.

fabiom91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351039#Comment_118351039

All right, maybe I've simplified too much, but can you tell me how come running a wire from a house breaker to a shed (no internal wiring, no underground cable) end up costing between 600 and 800 euro? Maybe I'm the one missing something here.

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351883#Comment_118351883

Did you get 3 separate quotes before getting it done?

JL spark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118351883#Comment_118351883

Materials cost

insurance

van

wages

tax’s

etc etc

the day of the quick cash job is gone ,