Sexual assaults in Courtown - see OP for mod warning - updated 01/08/19

Anto Lynch

Walter Bishop wrote: »

OK so now that it seems to be Travellers, does that make the crime more or less serious than if it had been immigrants? Or is it now more or less serious than if it had been white sixth-generation Irish who did it?

Or is the crime equally serious no matter who carried it out?

Give us your opinion?

Walter Bishop

I would have thought that was obvious Anto, the crime is equally serious no matter who carried it out.

Walter Bishop

Walter Bishop wrote: »

I would have thought that was obvious Anto, the crime is equally serious no matter who carried it out.

Exactly.
It doesn't matter what race, colour or religion an offender is. They are an offender. That's all that matters.

boombang

boombang wrote: »

That black people are shamefully subject to racist abuse in this country doesn't seem an argument that information that could helpfully lead to the capture of rapists should be withheld from publication.

If you or I had seen something suspicious involving a group of young men in Courtown on Sunday, would we really be sitting by the telephone waiting for the Gardai to announce whether the suspects are white and speckled with freckles, or Hispanic, or Japanese? Obviously not.

They are asking for people who saw anything out of the ordinary, no matter how big or how small. I don't see why anything who saw something suspicious would need to be told about race.

I suspect the people who want to know the race (unless the answer is 'white') are just looking to confirm their own biases.

You could almost smell the disappointment in here when it was discovered that this seems not to be related to the Direct Provision Centre in Courtown. It was like watching a group of pitiful, annoyed punters shuffle out of Ladbrokes after their nag has fallen at the first hurdle.

biko

Anto Lynch wrote: »

Listen from 36 minutes in.

https://www.96fm.ie/on-air/shows/the-opinion-line/listen-back/

Sound, halting site raided and the sought teens assumed having left the country

jam_mac_jam

biko wrote: »

Sound, halting site raided and the sought teens assumed having left the country

That's an awful pity, will be hard to find them. I had hoped that they would have arrested them.

El_Bee

were could they go, england? I'm sure the police over there could grab them.

splinter65

El_Bee wrote: »

were could they go, england? I'm sure the police over there could grab them.

Like so many others from all over the world that land in England they’ll disappear until the heat dies down.

Anto Lynch

El_Bee wrote: »

were could they go, england? I'm sure the police over there could grab them.

Dont be so sure. I know two fellas wanted for murder here that are living in England years.

boombang

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If you or I had seen something suspicious involving a group of young men in Courtown on Sunday, would we really be sitting by the telephone waiting for the Gardai to announce whether the suspects are white and speckled with freckles, or Hispanic, or Japanese? Obviously not.

They are asking for people who saw anything out of the ordinary, no matter how big or how small. I don't see why anything who saw something suspicious would need to be told about race.

I suspect the people who want to know the race (unless the answer is 'white') are just looking to confirm their own biases.

You could almost smell the disappointment in here when it was discovered that this seems not to be related to the Direct Provision Centre in Courtown. It was like watching a group of pitiful, annoyed punters shuffle out of Ladbrokes after their nag has fallen at the first hurdle.

Agreed, people should give info to guards irrespective of race.

However, I don't like the idea of living in a media landscape where somebody else makes a decision about what attributes of a criminal or suspected criminal I am permitted to hear. I know people are prejudiced, but I would prefer to live in an uncensored world and deal with prejudices than have facts withheld from me on the basis of other people's idea of what's good for me.

listermint

boombang wrote: »

Agreed, people should give info to guards irrespective of race.

However, I don't like the idea of living in a media landscape where somebody else makes a decision about what attributes of a criminal or suspected criminal I am permitted to hear. I know people are prejudiced, but I would prefer to live in an uncensored world and deal with prejudices than have facts withheld from me on the basis of other people's idea of what's good for me.

Your not entitled to know anything until the Guards release the information.

There is this weird notion that information should be supplied to the public when investigations or criminal trials are on going.

Its part of the Tommy Robinson facebook style absolute moronic idea set that has propagated around.

The public will know exactly when the public should know and not before.

boombang

boombang wrote: »

Agreed, people should give info to guards irrespective of race.

However, I don't like the idea of living in a media landscape where somebody else makes a decision about what attributes of a criminal or suspected criminal I am permitted to hear. I know people are prejudiced, but I would prefer to live in an uncensored world and deal with prejudices than have facts withheld from me on the basis of other people's idea of what's good for me.

But this is relates to suspects... why should Gardai go into detail, handing over all the specifics and particulars, to satisfy the curiosity of some nosey parker? That makes no sense.

It's another thing entirely to be hiding the identity of a convicted criminal where all parties are (or have become) adults. But we're talking suspects who haven't even been interviewed yet. You're obviously not entitled to much info about them.

Kidchameleon

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If you or I had seen something suspicious involving a group of young men in Courtown on Sunday, would we really be sitting by the telephone waiting for the Gardai to announce whether the suspects are white and speckled with freckles, or Hispanic, or Japanese? Obviously not.

They are asking for people who saw anything out of the ordinary, no matter how big or how small. I don't see why anything who saw something suspicious would need to be told about race.

I suspect the people who want to know the race (unless the answer is 'white') are just looking to confirm their own biases.

You could almost smell the disappointment in here when it was discovered that this seems not to be related to the Direct Provision Centre in Courtown. It was like watching a group of pitiful, annoyed punters shuffle out of Ladbrokes after their nag has fallen at the first hurdle.

People want to know who to look out for, to warn their children about etc.

Their descriptions should not have been witheld

xckjoo

boombang wrote: »

Agreed, people should give info to guards irrespective of race.

However, I don't like the idea of living in a media landscape where somebody else makes a decision about what attributes of a criminal or suspected criminal I am permitted to hear. I know people are prejudiced, but I would prefer to live in an uncensored world and deal with prejudices than have facts withheld from me on the basis of other people's idea of what's good for me.

It's not about what's good for you though. It's about protecting 1) the victims 2) innocent people from getting labelled guilty and 3) the ongoing investigation (see reddit and the Boston Bombers for example of this).

MrFresh

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People want to know who to look out for, to warn their children about etc.

Their descriptions should not have been witheld

Unless someone has a very distinctive feature, a general description is useless as a precaution and only works to blind people to other dangers.

biko

The Gardai should conceal info only when it is required for the investigation, and then release it after.

To keep information from the public because some politician thinks it may be "sensitive" means giving in to the snowflakes.

MrFresh wrote: »

Unless someone has a very distinctive feature, a general description is useless as a precaution and only works to blind people to other dangers.

I don't agree. And it makes me suspicious when someone wants to restrict information.
Not you but when police say they are withholding the profile of the perp and then you find it was only because it was "sensitive" (aka non-national).

Ulysses Gaze

biko wrote: »

The Gardai should conceal info only when it is required for the investigation, and then release it after.

To keep information from the public because some politician thinks it may be "sensitive" means giving in to the snowflakes.

To ensure Community "Cohesion" is how it is termed in the UK.

Look how that worked out.

boombang

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But this is relates to suspects... why should Gardai go into detail, handing over all the specifics and particulars, to satisfy the curiosity of some nosey parker? That makes no sense.

It's another thing entirely to be hiding the identity of a convicted criminal where all parties are (or have become) adults. But we're talking suspects who haven't even been interviewed yet. You're obviously not entitled to much info about them.

Them being minors (apparently) is admittedly a big complication in this story and I imagine an important legal reason for not publishing too much information.

On a broader point, I think society should be grown up enough that we can have the ethnicity of suspects to be reported. That they're still only suspects not convicted criminals doesn't cut it with me. If they've done enough to raise police attention I think it's valid for the public to know their BROAD characteristics (as opposed to all of the specifics and particulars).

We may not agree on this.

boombang

xckjoo wrote: »

It's not about what's good for you though. It's about protecting 1) the victims 2) innocent people from getting labelled guilty and 3) the ongoing investigation (see reddit and the Boston Bombers for example of this).

I see your point. Indeed, I would put 1, 2 and 3 before my (4) right to have freely reported news about what's going on in society. However, I still think 4 is important and I don't like it when we're too touchy about race to report it.

This case isn't a good example in which to make my point, but there are other examples in which the ethnicity of criminals isn't published and I don't see the good reason for it.

biko

biko wrote: »

I don't agree. And it makes me suspicious when someone wants to restrict information.
Not you but when police say they are withholding the profile of the perp and then you find it was only because it was "sensitive" (aka non-national).

https://www.lmfm.ie/news/gardai-appeal-for-information-on-stabbing-in-dunda/

Are you suspicious about this?

A stabbing in Dundalk, no identity hinted at at all. Probably just a white Irish local.

It seems that it's only when a rumour starts about ethnic minorities that people start to point out their worries and suspicions. Most appeals for information try not to limit the trawl, and don't distract from the appeal with pointless information.

xckjoo

boombang wrote: »

I see your point. Indeed, I would put 1, 2 and 3 before my (4) right to have freely reported news about what's going on in society. However, I still think 4 is important and I don't like it when we're too touchy about race to report it.

This case isn't a good example in which to make my point, but there are other examples in which the ethnicity of criminals isn't published and I don't see the good reason for it.

I see what you're saying but I'd counter that a description of a suspect is not something that's needs to be published by news outlets unless there's a very specific reason to release it (e.g. help identifying someone). For one thing the Guards would be swamped with calls about "sightings" from all over the country.

Hal3000

Ethnicity and race are becoming big issues because of a failure of our judicial and immigration systems.

Think about it, if a non national commited a serious crime and was guaranteed to be deported on release would you care as much?

If a traveller was prosectured harshly for repeated offences would you be as outraged?

Reason most are pissed off is because we have no politicians with any balls willing to make people accountable for their actions. There is no racism involved, as same rules apply to all. Obviously you can't deport Irish citizens, but they should be sentenced similary. Jesus, this is not rocket science!

Same with immigration. Suggest it to be skilled vetted migrants and you're labeled racist. Until we can get a party that can wade through all this rubbish and make sound decisions these issues won't end.

Boggles

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If you or I had seen something suspicious involving a group of young men in Courtown on Sunday, would we really be sitting by the telephone waiting for the Gardai to announce whether the suspects are white and speckled with freckles, or Hispanic, or Japanese? Obviously not.

They are asking for people who saw anything out of the ordinary, no matter how big or how small. I don't see why anything who saw something suspicious would need to be told about race.

I suspect the people who want to know the race (unless the answer is 'white') are just looking to confirm their own biases.

You could almost smell the disappointment in here when it was discovered that this seems not to be related to the Direct Provision Centre in Courtown. It was like watching a group of pitiful, annoyed punters shuffle out of Ladbrokes after their nag has fallen at the first hurdle.

/Thread

Kidchameleon

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Tell them that statistically, the greatest risk is within their own family or close network.

Would your advise have helped the poor victims in this case? Or anyone else who subsequently chanced upon the rapists?

Faugheen

A girl was raped and 2 others were sexually assaulted.

Just thought I’d remind everybody of the victims in this thread instead of the talk of the travellers, blacks, whites, blues and pinks with everyone trying to one-up each other.

Assetbacked

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Tell them that statistically, the greatest risk is within their own family or close network.

Statistically watch out for travellers.

Boggles

Hal3000 wrote: »

Same with immigration. Suggest it to be skilled vetted migrants and you're labeled racist.

We already have that?

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Would your advise have helped the poor victims in this case? Or anyone else who subsequently chanced upon the rapists?

Assetbacked wrote: »

Statistically watch out for travellers.

There's an important difference between absolute and relative frequencies.

If we take the frequency of criminality by travellers and compare it to the frequency of criminality by settled people, there is surely a higher ratio of theft-related criminality carried out by settled people in Ireland, but a higher proportion of travellers are involved, relative to the settled population. This can lead to confirmation bias.

The same bias applies to sexual abuse within families or in close networks vs high-profile examples of abuse.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People want to know who to look out for, to warn their children about etc.

Their descriptions should not have been witheld

If for some reason the gardai believe there is a risk to the public, then they would issue a warning & possibly a description.
No reason otherwise.
The general public do not need to know the details of an investigation, particularly not an investigation into sexual crimes, & definately not sexual crimes involvong minors.

biko

biko wrote: »

The Gardai should conceal info only when it is required for the investigation, and then release it after.

To keep information from the public because some politician thinks it may be "sensitive" means giving in to the snowflakes.


I don't agree. And it makes me suspicious when someone wants to restrict information.
Not you but when police say they are withholding the profile of the perp and then you find it was only because it was "sensitive" (aka non-national).

There was no such thing as gardai 'withholding the profile of the perp '
( we don't have perps in Ireland BTW)
It was a sensitive case because, like all other similar crimes, it is a sexual crime. & it also involves juveniles.
None of these details are ever given out to the public, not do they need to be.