Dutch "Burqa ban" comes into force from today

Hector Savage

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The Government tells us lots of things we can and can't do from a behavioural perspective. This isn't one I'd disagree with myself.

It's nonsense that our societies are bending over backwards to accommodate people, cultural norms, and beliefs that are completely at odds with our way of life.

If you come here (ESPECIALLY if you do so on the generosity of this country) you adapt and integrate with our laws and our culture - not the other way around.

Time to start standing up to not just this attitude, but those who think our society should come second, for nothing more than social media virtue signalling :rolleyes:

Fair play to the Dutch. Of course, similar laws will not happen here. We have a leader obsessed with his social media profile and we as a country have a ridiculous "need" to be approved of and validated by others.

Again a sensible post, one that you would think all sensible thinking people would thank.

Quite telling the usual crowd on here that aren't thanking this ... says a lot.

Danzy

Hector Savage wrote: »

Again a sensible post, one that you would think all sensible thinking people would thank.

Quite telling the usual crowd on here that aren't thanking this ... says a lot.

If Archbishop McQuaid was around the same people would be protesting and condemning him, rightly so, yet people that are far more reactionary and extreme than him in Clonskeagh etc are feted.

Across Europe and Britain the gap is wider.

.I understand there is a safety issue in protesting some mosques but there isn't the barest challenge to the most egregious of views.

It's about more than just protecting a block vote no matter what.

Overheal

biko wrote: »

The Dutch ban is a ban on clothes covering the face (as well as wearing helmets inside etc).
This isn't just the burka but also the niqab.

Many people get Niqab and Burka mixed up as they didn't have to think about these things only ten, or even five, years ago.


Here is a pic illustrating the difference

Don't see the Niqab or Burka in my parts, Chador a little. Lot of Hijabs.

MrFresh

reg114 wrote: »

Ultimately I see burqas as the uniform of female suppression and there is no place for that anywhere.

But is there not an inherent hypocrisy in fighting the suppression by telling women what they can't wear?

Hector Savage wrote: »

Again a sensible post, one that you would think all sensible thinking people would thank.

Quite telling the usual crowd on here that aren't thanking this ... says a lot.

I suppose it comes down to what you see as Irish culture. My idea of Irish culture is the Céad Míle Failte, live and let live approach. I don't really see how someone wearing a head covering damages that culture. Kaiser says we are bending over backwards to accommodate them but I'm not aware of any situations where this is the case. I'd be interested to know what part of Irish culture and laws you fell are under threat by someone's choice of head dress.

Brian?

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You really don't. Its quite rare to see one and I live in an area which would have one of the highest percentages of foreign people in the country.

I live in Eindhoven, huge Muslim population. I’ve never actually seen a woman wearing a burka. Lots of head scarves and the long ones that don’t cover the face.

I wonder sometimes if people know which one is a burka.

Dog Man Star

When I was at Legoland in England, there were two young women wearing the niqab eating lunch. I could see their faces when they were eating their sandwiches. It was quite arousing, like accidentally seeing someone's g-strap.

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

If Archbishop McQuaid was around the same people would be protesting and condemning him, rightly so, yet people that are far more reactionary and extreme than him in Clonskeagh etc are feted.

Across Europe and Britain the gap is wider.

.I understand there is a safety issue in protesting some mosques but there isn't the barest challenge to the most egregious of views.

It's about more than just protecting a block vote no matter what.

My mate works in Clonskeagh. Great food in the canteen. What’s your problem with it?

Brian?

Overheal wrote: »

Don't see the Niqab or Burka in my parts, Chador a little. Lot of Hijabs.

Same here. Loads hijabs, a few chador, an occasional Niqab and zeros burkas.

dudara

SexBobomb wrote: »

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

It’s counterintuitive, but black is better to wear than white. The logic is that white reflects body heat sending it back towards the body, where black will absorb the body heat away from the body.

As a non-religious woman, I dislike seeing the more restrictive head coverings like niqabs and burqas. But it’s a different culture to mine, and a different way of doing things. And true change will only come about when the women who wear those garments reject them.

Ironically, I don’t find chadors and hijabs as bad, probably cause I grew up at the end of the era of the headscarf. Don’t forget the RC church had (and still does in places) it’s own version of this lunacy.

Danzy

dudara wrote: »

It’s counterintuitive, but black is better to wear than white. The logic is that white reflects body heat sending it back towards the body, where black will absorb the body heat away from the body.

As a non-religious woman, I dislike seeing the more restrictive head coverings like niqabs and burqas. But it’s a different culture to mine, and a different way of doing things. And true change will only come about when the women who wear those garments reject them.

Ironically, I don’t find chadors and hijabs as bad, probably cause I grew up at the end of the era of the headscarf. Don’t forget the RC church had (and still does in places) it’s own version of this lunacy.

The women often wear them out of their own wish, a barrier between them and the impure West and the degenerate women showing their faces to men, as they see it.

jam_mac_jam

dudara wrote: »

SexBobomb wrote: »

Serious question, why are they black and kind of uncomfortable looking? Just because in the middle East where its hot wouldn't it attract the heat and be roasting under it ? How come theres none in white silk or other colours ?

It’s counterintuitive, but black is better to wear than white. The logic is that white reflects body heat sending it back towards the body, where black will absorb the body heat away from the body.

As a non-religious woman, I dislike seeing the more restrictive head coverings like niqabs and burqas. But it’s a different culture to mine, and a different way of doing things. And true change will only come about when the women who wear those garments reject them.

Ironically, I don’t find chadors and hijabs as bad, probably cause I grew up at the end of the era of the headscarf. Don’t forget the RC church had (and still does in places) it’s own version of this lunacy.

The chadors and hijab arent as bad. It is incredibly restricted to have your face covered. You can't even eat in public. A headscarf is just not as extreme. Even in a lot of Muslim countries it's not the norm.

Guy:Incognito

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Very common in Dundrum during the week. I went into a bank a few days ago and somebody strolled in with a full on burqa. That's something that definitely shouldn't be allowed.

Do banks even get robbed anymore either way? Every one I see has the double security doors so you cant open one without closing the other and security glass at the counters. How would you even go about getting any money?

limnam

Surprised bikers are not up in arms over the same law preventing helmets in the same spaces.

MrFresh

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Do banks even get robbed anymore either way? Every one I see has the double security doors so you cant open one without closing the other and security glass at the counters. How would you even go about getting any money?

You just have to hope the person behind the counter is terrified of foreign customs and clothing.

jackboy

dudara wrote: »

It’s counterintuitive, but black is better to wear than white. The logic is that white reflects body heat sending it back towards the body, where black will absorb the body heat away from the body.

Is this true? I would have thought that black is hotter as it absorbs sunlight whereas white is cooler as it reflects sunlight. The color should be irrelevant when it comes to the transfer of body heat as there is no light between the body and inside of the clothes.

RandomName2

In other news, the male guardianship system in Saudi Arabia has been dealt a significant legal blow by royal decree.

Wibbs

dudara wrote: »

It’s counterintuitive, but black is better to wear than white. The logic is that white reflects body heat sending it back towards the body, where black will absorb the body heat away from the body.

Ah I dunno D, while it might have some science behind it I reckon it's more an old wives tale. On the ground it seems it's much more that it's fashion and traditional women were rarely enough outside the home so there's that. Even Bedouin men and women in the depths of the desert vary from pale to dark colours, the heat reflective or absorbative properties of colour doesn't seem to make much of a practical difference as those folks have been in that hostile environment for millennia. If it did they'd likely have settled on a colour.

As a non-religious woman, I dislike seeing the more restrictive head coverings like niqabs and burqas. But it’s a different culture to mine, and a different way of doing things. And true change will only come about when the women who wear those garments reject them.

That would be the hope, but the reality is that after a fairly long period of secularisation within the Islamic world, it flipped and now is getting more devout and traditional, especially in the West. That the West by and large tends to more pander because of "multicultural" considerations would make me consider that as a factor. And it's as much the women themselves that support and continue these practices. Women are usually the standard bearers of culture anyway.

Ironically, I don’t find chadors and hijabs as bad, probably cause I grew up at the end of the era of the headscarf. Don’t forget the RC church had (and still does in places) it’s own version of this lunacy.

Ah c'mon D not this stuff again. For all the idiocy of the few decades of Rome rule here it wasn't nearly to the same extent. Headscarves were as much a fashion(which can be the case in some Muslim countries, even Iran) as a religious thing. And on the religious front it was observed in mass and other religious contexts, like meeting cardinals and popes. Hell, somewhere I have the veil that my great grandmother wore meeting the pope in Italy in the 1890s(Leo the 13th IIRC ). I'd have zero issue with niqabs, even full on burkas in the mosque and religious contexts, but on the streets of the west? Nope. Triple nope.

It's a representation in fabric of religious, cultural and political affiliations. It's akin to walking down the street dragging a cross behind you. Religious, cultural and political affiliations that are too often out of step with modern liberal western democracies and societies. Yet it's modern liberal western democracies and societies that tend to encourage it. Ironies all over the kip.

Some of the reason why the whole veiling thing took off in that religion is interesting. In Mohammed's time only "pagans" and "whores" and the poor women were unveiled, "chaste" and rich women and sexually controlled women were veiled(not unlike in ancient Greek city states like Athens). He took that on board. While gathering a gansy load of wives when his followers were only allowed four(captured women a fave). Perks of the job I suppose.

Heroditas

Eric Cartman wrote: »

he means adamstown and foxborough , go down the shop in adamstown on welfare day and its like Halloween where everyones dressed up as a binbag.

i sincerely doubt it

4068ac1elhodqr

RandomName2 wrote: »

In other news, the male guardianship system in Saudi Arabia has been dealt a significant legal blow by royal decree.

Maybe there is hope, small steps and all that.
From: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0802/1066678-saudi-arabia-women-travel/

Saudi Arabia has allowed adult women (over 21) to travel without permission and granted them more control over family matters.

The decrees published today also covered employment regulations that would expand work opportunities for women, who represent a big portion of unemployed Saudis.
The ambitious plan in 2016 aimed to transform the economy by 2030, which envisages increasing women's participation in the workforce to 30% from 22%. {This still sounds very low, even by 2030}

Saudi Arabia ranked 141 of 149 countries in the 2018 Global Gender Gap, a World Economic Forum study on how women fare in economic and political participation, health and education.
That means there is x8 countries with worse gender gaps for women? Surprised. North Korea maybe, where else?

Heroditas

Sylvie Slow Underclothes wrote: »

Maybe there is hope, small steps and all that.
From: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0802/1066678-saudi-arabia-women-travel/

Saudi Arabia has allowed adult women (over 21) to travel without permission and granted them more control over family matters.

The decrees published today also covered employment regulations that would expand work opportunities for women, who represent a big portion of unemployed Saudis.
The ambitious plan in 2016 aimed to transform the economy by 2030, which envisages increasing women's participation in the workforce to 30% from 22%. {This still sounds very low, even by 2030}

Saudi Arabia ranked 141 of 149 countries in the 2018 Global Gender Gap, a World Economic Forum study on how women fare in economic and political participation, health and education.
That means there is x8 countries with worse gender gaps for women? Surprised. North Korea maybe, where else?

The likes of Yemen, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Chad are worse. North Korea doesn't even figure in the lists by all accounts.

jaxxx

The rest of Europe should follow suit. As far as I'm concerned all it stands for is centuries of oppression against women. Men don't have to wear them, yet women do? F*ck off. You wanna practice archaic customs, go to places in the world still living in the dark ages.

Phil.x

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I very rarely see women in Ireland with the full burka anyway

I depends on where you live. Dublin 15 is a melting pot of different varieties, today in this boiling heat i see a woman? and kid walking in the full burka, jet black the person must of being on the cusp of heatstroke.

And yes it should be banned in ireland.

maebee

Phil.x wrote: »

I depends on where you live. Dublin 15 is a melting pot of different varieties, today in this boiling heat i see a woman? and kid walking in the full burka, jet black the person must of being on the cusp of heatstroke.

And yes it should be banned in ireland.

It amazes me how the menopausal women cope with the burka. I get hot flushes just looking at them burka-ed up in the hot weather:)

Timberrrrrrrr

Phil.x wrote: »

I depends on where you live. Dublin 15 is a melting pot of different varieties, today in this boiling heat i see a woman? and kid walking in the full burka, jet black the person must of being on the cusp of heatstroke.

And yes it should be banned in ireland.

Black keeps you cooler than white

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/the-physics-that-explain-why-you-should-wear-black-this-5903956/amp

Phil.x

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Black keeps you cooler than white

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/the-physics-that-explain-why-you-should-wear-black-this-5903956/amp

Thats horse sh1t, what about all those oil sheiks in the desert in their finest whites.

The burka a a rag designed to hinder and omit women in a man's world.

Timberrrrrrrr

Phil.x wrote: »

Thats horse sh1t, what about all those oil sheiks in the desert in their finest whites.

The burka a a rag designed to hinder and omit women in a man's world.

Oh well that must be it so, how could i ever disagree with such a well thought out informative post :rolleyes:

jackboy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Black keeps you cooler than white

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/the-physics-that-explain-why-you-should-wear-black-this-5903956/amp

That link seems to be bad science, not helped by the picture from the matrix film.

Timberrrrrrrr

jackboy wrote: »

That link seems to be bad science, not helped by the picture from the matrix film.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/light-colored-clothes-in-hot-weather.htm

 it doesn't make a huge difference whether you're wearing black or white in hot weather. As long as you keep your clothes loose, you're probably going to feel the same

RandomName2

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Oh well that must be it so, how could i ever disagree with such a well thought out informative post :rolleyes:

The answer is that:

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (17/100):

It is not permissible for a woman to go out in a decorated garment that attracts people’s gaze, because this is something that tempts men.

It also says (17/108):

The dress of the Muslim woman need not only be black. It is permissible for her to wear any colour of clothing so long as it covers her ‘awrah, does not resemble men’s clothing, and is not so tight as to show the shape of her limbs or so thin as to show what is beneath it, and does not provoke temptation.

And it says (17/109):

Wearing black for women is not a must. They may wear other colours that are worn only by women, do not attract attention and do not provoke desire.

Many women choose to wear black, not because it is obligatory, but because it is farthest removed from being an adornment. There are reports which indicate that the women of the Sahaabah used to wear black. Abu Dawood (4101) narrated that Umm Salamah said: “When the words ‘and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)’ [al-Noor 24:31 – interpretation of the meaning] were revealed, the women of the Ansaar went out looking as if there were crows on their heads because of their garments.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

In short black is worn in the form of niqabs (and some burqas) due to its association with modesty.

Black is also associated with the Black Standard (used by Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc.) but this is a bit different.

Black absorbs light, and white reflects light, so the idea of wearing something that will be hot as a means to stay cool really requires a great deal of explanation in order to make sense. The reason why black is worn is due to its association with modesty, not to do with science.

Melanchthon

I'm no fan of facial coverings but the support for this ban by those who lean right seems hypocritical, you all rail against the establishment view point being enforced by censorship and biased media reporting and so on, this is the state controlling what someone wears in public due to establishment wishes, its just this time you all agree with it.

In my view a ban on wearing in public employment and facial covering being exempted from religious discrimination legal protections would be fairer