Nimbyism is actually grand sometimes

Dog Man Star

Ballinteer is considered a plush area now? LOL. It's a sh*thole and always has been. It has nothing but an Aldi and congested traffic.
Ranelagh it ain't.

Thank god I left Ireland when I did.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

We all know where they live.. generally "disadvantaged" areas with low employment and education. I see no need to have them trekking across the city to mollycoddle their addictions.

I live in Ranelagh. I see people down here all the time, especially on the Rathmines side, who clearly have heroin addiction. I was once in a shop in Portobello where the customer before me had accidentally left his methadone 'take-away'. Drug dealing happens quite openly in this part of the city, which ordinarily people might not expect.

There is social housing in all parts of Dublin, from KIlliney, Dalkey, Sandycove -- right up top Howth and Malahide -- and there is drug addiction in all of these places, although we only sneer and frown when it's heroin.

There is no reason why every primary care centre shouldn't have a methadone dispensing facility, so people can avoid the city centre.

But if you disagree, then fine. Just don't whine and moan when all of the city's heroin addicts are concentrated inside the city centre

greenttc

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Ballinteer is considered a plush area now? LOL. It's a sh*thole and always has been. It has nothing but an Aldi and congested traffic.
Ranelagh it ain't.

Thank god I left Ireland when I did.

You are clearly thinking of somewhere else, there is no Aldi in Ballinteer and there never has been. There is only a Supervalu (used to be Superquinn)

who said it was plush or compared it to Ranelagh?

expectationlost

grahambo wrote: »

Read this today:
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dr-criticises-ministers-huge-nimbyism-over-blocking-methadone-clinic-in-her-constituency-940941.html



If I was in constituency that minister would have earned my vote for the next election.

The majority of Heroin addicts are in and around town, what the hell would they be moving a clinic like that out to Ballinteer for?

This is absolutely nimbyism, but in this case I'm all for it!
Imagine spending €500k on a nice home out in Ballinteer (or where ever) only for the Dept Health to open up a clinic for smack heads across/down the road.
I'd be furious!

I still feel that most forms of nimbyism is wrong, IE people that block infra projects etc (that save our trees bulls*t with the red ribbons boils my blood).
But in this case it's completely justified.

what did she actually do? nothing she says.

listermint

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I live in Ranelagh. I see people down here all the time, especially on the Rathmines side, who clearly have heroin addiction. I was once in a shop in Portobello where the customer before me had accidentally left his methadone 'take-away'. Drug dealing happens quite openly in this part of the city, which ordinarily people might not expect.

There is social housing in all parts of Dublin, from KIlliney, Dalkey, Sandycove -- right up top Howth and Malahide -- and there is drug addiction in all of these places, although we only sneer and frown when it's heroin.

There is no reason why every primary care centre shouldn't have a methadone dispensing facility, so people can avoid the city centre.

But if you disagree, then fine. Just don't whine and moan when all of the city's heroin addicts are concentrated inside the city centre

Theres far more drug addiction in the 'leafy's' than there ever was in so called run down areas.

Atoms for Peace

We need our own devil's island to which we can cast our reprobates whence.

Atoms for Peace

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

We need our own devil's island to which we can cast our reprobates whence.

And we need fewer misused adverbs.

I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi, but are you deliberately trying to sound archaic? I suggest you approach some of the volunteers in Dublin city centre who themselves have recovered from addiction, and see how they are making people's lives better. They are now (at 7pm, literally now) throwing down a ladder to help others up -- not pushing away the ladder behind them. That's the reality of what's happening.

kenmc

_blaaz wrote: »

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

No thanks. We're over our Dub quota as is.

Can we not just let em.run loose on the abandoned bogs


Kinda like a safari type effort?

Now we're getting somewhere, maybe turn it into a bit of real life quake or doom

expectationlost

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

We need our own devil's island to which we can cast our reprobates whence.

reprobates

1. 1.
   an unprincipled person.
   
   
   
   

Josepha Madigan

Beasty

I would suggest it's typically "grand" when it's in the back yard of the beholder

AndrewJRenko

greenttc wrote: »

lastly, whatever about ministers and councillors jumping on bandwagons to try and say they did something for the local area, I will one hundred percent give my vote to those who do things for the area i live in. I dont care how many people complain about shane ross, that man tries so hard for his constituency and calls to doors more outside election times than he does during election time that he deserves my vote many times over. any constituents who dont vote for him are foolish in my eyes. while he may be thought of as an idiot nationally he isnt locally and that is the biggest impact we see. if we dont have some fool in power from our own area we will have some fool from another area making the same decisions but not benefiting where I live. so if josepha ever does anything for her constituency she should of course broadcast it and let her constituents know that she is working for them.

It's not really a great reason for choosing the Minister who's going to be making national decisions on national policy that will be impacting quality of life for generations to come - like the Metro and BusConnects and more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY

suicide_circus wrote: »

are there a lot of heroin addicts living in ballinteer?

Probably not, so that's a good reason to have a small clinic to cover a small number of people, instead of forcing a large number of addicts to congregate at another location.

Balf wrote: »

I'd say its a bit of that, but also something that jars like thisAnd then there's thisDoes she put her signature to a lot of stuff she doesn't believe in? Or does she means she's giving her ex post approval? Or what?

That's a really important question. Does the Minister allow her office staff to put her signature on stuff that she hasn't approved? If so, how many more important letters on more important matters have her staff sent out without her approval under her signature?

Dog Man Star

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Ballinteer is considered a plush area now? LOL. It's a sh*thole and always has been. It has nothing but an Aldi and congested traffic.
Ranelagh it ain't.

Thank god I left Ireland when I did.

I'm surprised you found your way out of Ireland, as you're not that great with the oul' placenames anyway. Ballinteer doesn't have an Aldi, nor a Lidl.

And no, it's not Ranelagh. If you mean Ranelagh. Or Rathgar. Or Rathmines. Or Rathmichael. Or Rathfarnham.

ILoveYourVibes

grahambo wrote: »

Read this today:
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dr-criticises-ministers-huge-nimbyism-over-blocking-methadone-clinic-in-her-constituency-940941.html



If I was in constituency that minister would have earned my vote for the next election.

The majority of Heroin addicts are in and around town, what the hell would they be moving a clinic like that out to Ballinteer for?

This is absolutely nimbyism, but in this case I'm all for it!
Imagine spending €500k on a nice home out in Ballinteer (or where ever) only for the Dept Health to open up a clinic for smack heads across/down the road.
I'd be furious!

I still feel that most forms of nimbyism is wrong, IE people that block infra projects etc (that save our trees bulls*t with the red ribbons boils my blood).
But in this case it's completely justified.

There should be one in Dáil Eireann. I mean actually IN the building.

Raconteuse

Of course there's nothing wrong with "nimbyism". It's just easy to complain about it when not affected... and living in a nice area that never has anti social problems.

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Ballinteer is considered a plush area now? LOL. It's a sh*thole and always has been. It has nothing but an Aldi and congested traffic.
Ranelagh it ain't.

Thank god I left Ireland when I did.

An inaccurate notion of what Ballinteer comprises caused you to leave Ireland? Crikey.

ChikiChiki wrote: »

There really is no hope for the country.

Because of one person's post on the internet?

Raconteuse

listermint wrote: »

Theres far more drug addiction in the 'leafy's' than there ever was in so called run down areas.

There is? "Far more"? Hmmm...

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

are there a lot of heroin addicts living in ballinteer?

No.


So basically anyone using the clinic would have to travel from where they are from all the way over to ballinteer.

If you are going from the northside that would mean two buses.

It would take roughly two hrs.

Sonny noggs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No.


So basically anyone using the clinic would have to travel from where they are from all the way over to ballinteer.

If you are going from the northside that would mean two buses.

It would take roughly two hrs.

Do these people have busy schedules?

I assume they have the free travel...

Having them live on constantly moving mobile clinics might actually be the solution. Blacked out windows etc. Out of sight, out of mind.

Sonny noggs

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do these people have busy schedules?

I assume they have the free travel...

Having them live on constantly moving buses might actually be the solution

If they have free travel it should be taken away from them.

ILoveYourVibes

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do these people have busy schedules?

I assume they have the free travel...

Having them live on constantly moving mobile clinics might actually be the solution. Blacked out windows etc. Out of sight, out of mind.

This is basically medical treatment. Would you like to have your medical treatment 2 hrs away from you or in your own neighborhood?

Bear in mind this is going to be daily. That is four hrs etc traveling unless they have a car.

What if they have jobs full time or part time etc ? what if they have children?

Sonny noggs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is basically medical treatment. Would you like to have your medical treatment 2 hrs away from you or in your own neighborhood?

Do they have anything else on? Job to get to? Kids to pick up from school... Lots of people with long commutes, so little sympathy for these lads spending some time on a nice comfortable bus.

Sonny noggs

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do they have anything else on? Job to get to? Kids to pick up from school... Lots of people with long commutes, so little sympathy for these lads spending some time on a nice comfortable bus.

More time on a bus is less time to spend on the street.

ILoveYourVibes

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Do they have anything else on? Job to get to? Kids to pick up from school... Lots of people with long commutes, so little sympathy for these lads spending some time on a nice comfortable bus.

Yes. They do. Most of them have children particularly the women. A number of them have jobs. Some of them are also students.

No they don't have free travel.

Kermit.de.frog

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Most of them have children particularly the women.

Post of the day and only 9:30.

Sonny noggs

Same applies to most people with long commutes, they typically have partners, jobs, children and may be studying. Not sure why heroine addicts deserve special consideration regarding commute time versus the rest of us.

Beta Ray Bill

Leo has come out and said the ting that I said that she did wasn't actually a ting that she did at all despite the fact the ting she did is on her letter. (Which she allegedly didn't approve)


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/leo-varadkar-josepha-madigan-didnt-lobby-against-the-methadone-clinic-941282.html

We can trust Leo right?

I'm actually confused

ILoveYourVibes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Post of the day and only 9:30.

I am just saying the truth.

Whatever you want to think about it they do.

Sonny noggs

grahambo wrote: »

Leo has come out and said the ting that I said that she did wasn't actually a ting that she did at all despite the fact the ting she did is on her letter. (Which she allegedly didn't approve)


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/leo-varadkar-josepha-madigan-didnt-lobby-against-the-methadone-clinic-941282.html

We can trust Leo right?

I'm actually confused

What has this got to do with The Ting Tings? Confused is right!

Sonny noggs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am just saying the truth.

Whatever you want to think about it they do.

So does everyone else, but the rest of have commutes, so let them at it.

Beta Ray Bill

Sonny noggs wrote: »

What has this got to do with The Ting Tings? Confused is right!

Ting is how you spell (and pronounce) Thing when you live on the north side of Dublin city

Auguste Comte

And we all know that only poor people from the north side have addiction problems.

Deebles McBeebles

One clinic for the entire country. Stick it on Inis Mor, at the end of a water-based obstacle course, the final obstacle being a free climb up the bad side of Dun Aonghasa.

We could televise it to make a few extra quid. I would name it "Methadone in the Madness".

greenttc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not really a great reason for choosing the Minister who's going to be making national decisions on national policy that will be impacting quality of life for generations to come - like the Metro and BusConnects and more?

That's a really important question. Does the Minister allow her office staff to put her signature on stuff that she hasn't approved? If so, how many more important letters on more important matters have her staff sent out without her approval under her signature?

its the best reason to choose a minister! the minister makes very little decisions, they are just the face of it, the real decision makers are the high level civil servants who do the actual work and decision making. of course a minister and party will propose certain things and get them pushed through but we would be foolish not to realise that it is the high ranking officials just below the ministers who are pulling the strings. so knowing this we should vote for the people who will look after their constituency and generations of people living in that constituency. politics in ireland will never be truley about national concerns when we are voting by constituents.

as for josepha signing off on stuff, id say that letter to her constituents was not significant enough for her to read over OR she is lying and of course read it but doesnt want to take the blame. id say she did read it briefly and signed off on it but has decided to lie about it. she shouldnt even be in the spotlight about it when she was one of many who did the same thing over something that was never going to happen, its such a ridiculous news story.

jester77

Wow, hope no one ever needs a helping hand in their life time.

There is a methadone clinic across the road from where I live, the cheapest houses in the area would be around 550-600K. And guess what... not a single issue, you would get the odd whiff of weed in the air every so often, but I would also get that walking past some of the neighbours on a warm summers evening.

_Kaiser_

grahambo wrote: »

Leo has come out and said the ting that I said that she did wasn't actually a ting that she did at all despite the fact the ting she did is on her letter. (Which she allegedly didn't approve)


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/leo-varadkar-josepha-madigan-didnt-lobby-against-the-methadone-clinic-941282.html

We can trust Leo right?

I'm actually confused

Whatever is going on with Swing-gate and the individuals linked to it (which includes this minister coincidentally enough) obviously has Leo terrified that they'll spill the beans on something far more damaging.

That's where the real story is!

Balf

grahambo wrote: »

Leo has come out and said the ting that I said that she did wasn't actually a ting that she did at all despite the fact the ting she did is on her letter. (Which she allegedly didn't approve)


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/leo-varadkar-josepha-madigan-didnt-lobby-against-the-methadone-clinic-941282.html

We can trust Leo right?

I'm actually confused

You can see how they are trying to fudge it. As I see it, they are trying to learn political tact from Shane Ross's example, which has to mean they're in a bad place.

Shane Ross reported the fact there wasn't going to be a methadone clinic, but said nothing about whether this was a good or a bad thing. So, while we all know how Shane wants us to read that fact, he can straightfaced say that he was only informing his constituents of things happening (or not happening) in their area, as any good public representative should do.

Josepha, on the other hand, has a letter purporting to be signed by her. Hitherto affixing your signature to something is, globally, taken to mean personal endorsement. But, apparently, not in this case.

This letter clearly says:
- Josepha made representations in the matter
- The decision not to locate the clinic was taken after her representations (which can only be read as an attempt to take at least partial credit for the clinic not being located there)
- That Ballinteer is not a suitable location for such as service, as its used by local residents. Which has the implication that folk attending addiction services are not to be regarded as part of the community

So, indeed, when Leo says "I haven't had a chance to speak to Minister Madigan about that yet, but my understanding is that she didn't lobby against the methadone clinic, the leaflet was for information to her constituents.", his understanding would seem to be wrong. Minister Madigan seems to be telling her constituents that she lobbied against the centre successfully.

So, no need for confusion. Just a need for explanation.

greenttc

Balf wrote: »

You can see how they are trying to fudge it. As I see it, they are trying to learn political tact from Shane Ross's example, which has to mean they're in a bad place.

Shane Ross reported the fact there wasn't going to be a methadone clinic, but said nothing about whether this was a good or a bad thing. So, while we all know how Shane wants us to read that fact, he can straightfaced say that he was only informing his constituents of things happening (or not happening) in their area, as any good public representative should do.

Josepha, on the other hand, has a letter purporting to be signed by her. Hitherto affixing your signature to something is, globally, taken to mean personal endorsement. But, apparently, not in this case.

This letter clearly says:
- Josepha made representations in the matter
- The decision not to locate the clinic was taken after her representations (which can only be read as an attempt to take at least partial credit for the clinic not being located there)
- That Ballinteer is not a suitable location for such as service, as its used by local residents. Which has the implication that folk attending addiction services are not to be regarded as part of the community

So, indeed, when Leo says "I haven't had a chance to speak to Minister Madigan about that yet, but my understanding is that she didn't lobby against the methadone clinic, the leaflet was for information to her constituents.", his understanding would seem to be wrong. Minister Madigan seems to be telling her constituents that she lobbied against the centre successfully.

So, no need for confusion. Just a need for explanation.

I feel i have to add further enlightenment to your post just so that people are not misled.

first, I want to say that shane ross actually addressed this back in january at residents assocaition meetings. he confirmed that whether he or residents wanted or didnt want a clinic in the area it wasnt going ahead and the the reports that one was opening was just a rumour. in fairness to him he actually praised a local community guard, also present, who actually described his experience of clinics in other areas and assured people that they actually didnt make any significant change to crime in the area as was feared. shane was very clear in the meeting that he was not against the clinic but that it didnt matter because it wasnt going ahead anyway. he had investigated the rumours and was reporting them as wholly untrue. I think it is unfair to say that people should read between the lines of his unbiased information bulletin because there is nothing to read between the lines.

now, as for joesepha, I think you can read her post exactly as has been described, particularly if you are in an anti josepha kinda mood but I think you can also read it as her trying to make something of nothing. her representations, as understood by a constituent who knows a little about the situation, were nothing more than an enquiry. she didnt lobby cause there was nothing to lobby in the first place.she cant take credit for stopping something that was never happening in the first place.she is correct in ways when she says it isnt a suitable location, and again, if you were a constituent you would know that she is referring to the existing health centre not just the area of ballinteer. the health centre is where every child in the area goes for health checks as do all the elderly people seeking care and everyone in between. I am not sure there is the space or capacity for additional services and besides that it may not be appropriate to have Drug addicts sitting alongside very young children in the same clinic. yes they may be part of the community and they have health issues but they are also criminals (drug taking is against the law remember) and cannot be of sound mind whilst on drugs so josepha is possibly right when saying the location (the ballinteer health centre) is not suitable.

I think that if you dont know the full story, which other politicians, media outlets and people on the internet clearly dont, you just shouldn't be making comments which are painting a picture that isn't entirely accurate.

i dont know why I am writing such long posts defending politicians, its ridiculous, but I get frustrated when I read things that are just incorrect!

Balf

greenttc wrote: »

i dont know why I am writing such long posts defending politicians, its ridiculous, but I get frustrated when I read things that are just incorrect!

Any impartial observer will then be wondering why your frustration with things that are just incorrect seems to sidestep Josepha's action in this matter.

Because that is the main issue here.

If her actions were correct, Leo wouldn't be pretending they didn't happen and Josepha wouldn't be distancing herself from a letter that was issued under her own signature.

NeonWolf

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

People are always giving out about the concentration of heroin-addicted people in town. It's upsetting the tourists they cry (tourists numbers rise steadily, but it matters not).

But then someone suggests care in the community and nope, can't have them out in communities either.

And we have hardly any public detox beds. Nor rehab. That's our choice too.

Where do you you want them to go??

some warehouse in an industrial estate preferably -genuinely not trolling.

greenttc

Balf wrote: »

Any impartial observer will then be wondering why your frustration with things that are just incorrect seems to sidestep Josepha's action in this matter.

Because that is the main issue here.

If her actions were correct, Leo wouldn't be pretending they didn't happen and Josepha wouldn't be distancing herself from a letter that was issued under her own signature.

But I haven't side stepped it at all. And it is just your perception of what the main issue is and I disagree with your perception.

Leo is involved because the media are pushing the issue and he isn't pretending it didnt happen he is stating fact. He says She didn't lobby anyone and he is right because there was nothing to Lobby in the first place which has been my point from the beginning.

AndrewJRenko

greenttc wrote: »

its the best reason to choose a minister! the minister makes very little decisions, they are just the face of it, the real decision makers are the high level civil servants who do the actual work and decision making. of course a minister and party will propose certain things and get them pushed through but we would be foolish not to realise that it is the high ranking officials just below the ministers who are pulling the strings.

Nope, that's not how it works. Ministers control the money, and they know damn well how to stay on top of it.


Here's a great example, where the senior civil servant says not to spend the money, but the Govt goes ahead for political reasons - to keep the rural vote onside in this case;
https://www.thejournal.ie/robert-watt-broadband-4738814-Jul2019/

greenttc wrote: »

so knowing this we should vote for the people who will look after their constituency and generations of people living in that constituency. politics in ireland will never be truley about national concerns when we are voting by constituents.

Politicls will never be truly about national concerns when we are voting for people because they show up for the opening of an envelope.

greenttc wrote: »

as for josepha signing off on stuff, id say that letter to her constituents was not significant enough for her to read over OR she is lying and of course read it but doesnt want to take the blame. id say she did read it briefly and signed off on it but has decided to lie about it. she shouldnt even be in the spotlight about it when she was one of many who did the same thing over something that was never going to happen, its such a ridiculous news story.

If it's not significant enough for her to read over, it shouldn't go out with her signature. Ministers have serious statutory powers. Staff should not be signing anything with the Minister's name if the Minister hasn't approved it.


But it's more likely that she had actually read it but didn't cop the political significance because she has no contact with real people outside of Mount Merrion.



But now that she's thrown her staff under the bus, I look forward to seeing them returning the favour to her, just when she needs it most.

lola85

I’d say 99.9% of normal civilised people with kids wouldn’t want one of these junkie HQs in their area.

Maybe some island is the best option.

At least she is listening to her constituents.

AndrewJRenko

lola85 wrote: »

I’d say 99.9% of normal civilised people with kids wouldn’t want one of these junkie HQs in their area.

Maybe some island is the best option.

At least she is listening to her constituents.

Did those 95% of people read the feedback from those around the methodone clinics in Dundrum and Ranelagh about how there's no problems around them?

lola85

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did those 95% of people read the feedback from those around the methodone clinics in Dundrum and Ranelagh about how there's no problems around them?

Listen, I’ve lived around junkies long enough to know the score.

In the real world where you actually have to put your family first you use your first hand experiences and tuition.

If that sounds selfish, great I couldn’t find a ****.

AndrewJRenko

lola85 wrote: »

Listen, I’ve lived around junkies long enough to know the score.

In the real world where you actually have to put your family first you use your first hand experiences and tuition.

If that sounds selfish, great I couldn’t find a ****.

Sounds like the Village Butcher in Ranelagh has lived around them long enough to know the score.

Providing smaller local clinics is a much better way to 'damage control' than having large numbers together in one place.

greenttc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nope, that's not how it works. Ministers control the money, and they know damn well how to stay on top of it.


Here's a great example, where the senior civil servant says not to spend the money, but the Govt goes ahead for political reasons - to keep the rural vote onside in this case;
https://www.thejournal.ie/robert-watt-broadband-4738814-Jul2019/





Politicls will never be truly about national concerns when we are voting for people because they show up for the opening of an envelope.





If it's not significant enough for her to read over, it shouldn't go out with her signature. Ministers have serious statutory powers. Staff should not be signing anything with the Minister's name if the Minister hasn't approved it.


But it's more likely that she had actually read it but didn't cop the political significance because she has no contact with real people outside of Mount Merrion.



But now that she's thrown her staff under the bus, I look forward to seeing them returning the favour to her, just when she needs it most.

In my experience of government and especially funding it is definitely all about the high level civil servants as the politicians don't know the in-depth details of half of what they are giving money too,they haven't been in their department long enough to know. Of course there examples like the one gave but that is more an exception than a rule. I have worked in organisations that wait for that funding every budget day so am well aware of who is making real decisions. The example you have is just the media,once again making news, jist like they have blown the Joseph's story out of proportion.

As you will read in my posts I agreed the Josepha probably did read that letter and is just passing the blame to her staff.

greenttc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sounds like the Village Butcher in Ranelagh has lived around them long enough to know the score.

Providing smaller local clinics is a much better way to 'damage control' than having large numbers together in one place.

Providing a small local clinic is not what was being talked about here,it was rumoured that it was for the moving of a baggot street clinic to ballinteer,not just for locals bit for a wide catchment .

Viscount Aggro

We dont need another methadone clinic in Ballinteer or Dundrum.

http://prioritymedicalclinic.ie/

Balf

greenttc wrote: »

But I haven't side stepped it at all. And it is just your perception of what the main issue is and I disagree with your perception.

Leo is involved because the media are pushing the issue and he isn't pretending it didnt happen he is stating fact. He says She didn't lobby anyone and he is right because there was nothing to Lobby in the first place which has been my point from the beginning.

And your point sidesteps the fact that Josepha has circulated a letter under her signature to constituents, directly contradicting what you say.

Yes, its all political posturing. No, a politician can't just shrug something like this off, saying "Ah, here, I just made all that crap up."