IONITY - charging / fees / tips

ELM327

It's still too expensive if you're relying on it compared to say Supercharger use.
You're essentially paying €216 per year to access the "cheap" rate of 31c/kWh.

So you're stuck with paying piecemeal €216 per year or be stung with a few 50-60 quid fast charger stops.

I don't get the need for the subscription. Just make the car 2k more expensive and be done with it

catharsis

Cyrus wrote: »

i'm not sure who offers ionity monthly subs free, VW maybe with the ID3, but i haven't heard of any other, Audi gives ONE free year with the e-tron (so you get the .31c rate for one year) if you want to keep it after that you pay the monthly fee (for me who would use fast charging once every 8 week i wont be)

Mercedes EQC have ME:Charge which includes access to ionity, @ 0.29 c for the first year, I could not discover the monthly price after that.

Would you really expect other VAG brands such as Skoda and SEAT not to have an equivalent or to use the same approach as the ID.3?

similarly if Ford do not offer some Ionity tie-in with the Mach-E given their part-ownership of Ionity that would be a major surprise. I think the cars which do not already have it are simply suffering from being launched too early.

to answer your other point though - One year for the e-tron is just unacceptable, and I strongly suspect few will pay the fee to retain that cheaper rate (did you say it was €19.99?) except possibly those who are driving them as company cars, of course, which may be a not-insignificant proportion, and where such subscriptions is a deductible expense.

If the monthly charge is 19.99, and the difference in charging cost is from €0.31 with audi's subscription and the cheapest alternative being MainGau how many kwH sould you need to be consuming monthly (and by extension what mileage) to make this a rational purchase I wonder?

What is the current ionity price through Maingau?

Cyrus

catharsis wrote: »

Mercedes EQC have ME:Charge which includes access to ionity, @ 0.29 c for the first year, I could not discover the monthly price after that.

Would you really expect other VAG brands such as Skoda and SEAT not to have an equivalent or to use the same approach as the ID.3?

similarly if Ford do not offer some Ionity tie-in with the Mach-E given their part-ownership of Ionity that would be a major surprise. I think the cars which do not already have it are simply suffering from being launched too early.

to answer your other point though - One year for the e-tron is just unacceptable, and I strongly suspect few will pay the fee to retain that cheaper rate (did you say it was €19.99?) except possibly those who are driving them as company cars, of course, which may be a not-insignificant proportion, and where such subscriptions is a deductible expense.

If the monthly charge is 19.99, and the difference in charging cost is from €0.31 with audi's subscription and the cheapest alternative being MainGau how many kwH sould you need to be consuming monthly (and by extension what mileage) to make this a rational purchase I wonder?

What is the current ionity price through Maingau?

Audi is 17.50 per month after year one, hopefully they will see some sense and defer this a few years.Maingau is currently 40 odd c per kwh so yes you would use that rather than subscribe to audi.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't get the need for the subscription. Just make the car 2k more expensive and be done with it

If they made lifetime discounted access to Ionity a paid option at purchase time would you pay it? I wouldn't.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

If they made lifetime discounted access to Ionity, a paid option at purchase time would you pay it? I wouldn't.

I'd be more likely to pay that, than pay on subscription

liamog

In fairness, I do think it's a good idea, just not something I'd buy myself.

innrain

liamog wrote: »

If they made lifetime discounted access to Ionity a paid option at purchase time would you pay it? I wouldn't.

Would that not make to retain the resale value over the years better that non discounted option?

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

I'm about 99% certain that your assumption is wrong if you are indeed looking at the ID3 - you get free access to the wWCharge better rate on Ionity - which is either 0.55 or 0.30 (I'm having trouble working out WHICH subscription you get free with the ID3) - so no charging at 0.79, just charging at either 0.55 or 0.30 - which would change the figures in your model.


Otherwise well worked out and a very useful post.

I did put a disclaimer in the figures. Every car is different I really was only trying to give the worst case example which is what most people quote, which is the non-discounted 79c rate.... as you said, if you buy an Ionity member car it will be cheaper for the EV than my example. It is very much a worst case scenario.

ID.3 1st edition owners will get free Ionity charge for 1 year so much cheaper than diesel but Im sure I'd be pulled up on that if I used it as an example!

redcup342

catharsis wrote: »

Summary... you can do 500km's in an EV cheaper or dearer than a diesel. It depends on your car choice and charging method choice. Its not 2-3 times more expensive.


The reality is that the free lunch for EV charging is nearing its end. Expect costs to rise relative to the free days but unless you are doing that 500km journey everyday it will still be significantly cheaper to own an EV than a diesel as you will primarily charge at home.

Utilising Ionity is akin to buying food at an airport.... expect to pay a premium for that convenience but alternatives exist.

Charging is one aspect, parking costs are another one (and bus lanes)

Like you can drive from Amsterdam to Dusseldorf in your Diesel probably cheaper than in an EV (35-40 cent /kWh), but then you have to pay between 20 and 30 euros to park your Diesel whereas in your EV you can park on street for free.

Or you simply cannot park at all for more than 2 hours and need to find a parking garage this might not be near where you are staying for example (and also may cost 10-30 euros / night)

The other way around the journey would be cheaper as in Dusseldorf you can load up in many places for free or for a flat fee of 3 euros.

But then when you get to Amsterdam you have to pay for on street parking like normal (NL implemented benefits for EVs some years ago)

There's plenty of examples, but really it's hard to count all the benefits
.
Main one for me is that after driving EVs going back to driving a Diesel is horrible and I wouldn't really do a direct comparison with regards to costs since they aren't really comparible (for me at least)

I'm buying a Tesla M3 now as I want to take advantage of the benefits while they are there, missed the boat when I was living in NL some years ago (don't regret it as EVs where not in a state I could afford one)

irishgrover

So based on the discussion in the last couple of days I decided to have a look at my own reality. There are 2 cars in the driveway
1. Ioniq "classic"
2. BMW 530e

I drove from South Galway <> Leixlip last week. Exactly 400km return. It was same day trip so no destination charging.

Below is table of charging as associated costs etc. for Ioniq. I could have made it with 3 stops but will always err on the side of caution, especially if charger is close to road etc.



STOP|TIME (mins) |SUPPLIER|CHARGE|COST|AVG COST PER UNIT
1. Home start|N/A|home|28|€3.92|€0.14
2. Homeward Athlone|15|maingau|13.474|€5.25|€0.39
3. Outbound Kinnegad|6|easygo|4.23|€1.95|€0.46
4. Homeward Kinnegad|16|easygo|9.82|€4.17|€0.42
5. Outbound Athlone|19|maingau|19.298|€7.52|€0.39
TOTALS|56 MINUTES||74.822|€22.81|€0.30


So the above is what it took in the Ioniq. Total cost around €22 and additional time ~1hr 10 mins.

The total cost of doing same in 530e is dependent on fuel efficiency. This is hard to judge as indicated efficiency is normally around 3lt/100 (most driving is max e mode and short distances.
However I'm guessing that on this time of journey it would be ~ 6ltr/100km.
So same journey would take 24ltrs at 1.20.

Total cost in Ioniq = €23
Total cost in 530e = €29

€6 cheaper in the EV but 1+hr longer and any savings were eaten up (literally) by me buying ****e for me and the passengers to eat and drink whilst charging.

NOTES

• same day return + lack of destination charging make the sums significantly worse.
• I regularly do these long same day returns (couple of times a month)
• Economics for more modern larger battery cars would be much better

CONCLUSION
1. For a small number of people, who regularly do high mileage, same day returns, without destination charging and have low capacity batteries, then during these journeys, the return on driving an EV is marginal (if you have easy access to a 2nd efficient ICE
2. Not many people do this regularly
3. The rest of your normal journeys more than make up for it from an economical point of view
4. If I am bringing the kids with me on similar journey I would seriously consider taking the 530e with me. If I'm on my own, I will probably stick with the Ioniq

innrain

Unfortunately you're right and could be worse if you would have to pay the full Ionity charges.

However, you're not very kind to your Ioniq when you compare it to 530e. And I say this for those who are on the brink of buying a new car and they read your post. As you noted Ioniq is the wrong car for these frequent long journeys. 530e has a starting price double to the Ioniq. Incidentally or probably not Tesla M3 LR is in the same price bracket to 530e. It has about 70kWh and would probably do the journey without refueling at a cost of about a tenner.
Knowing this and if you would have a budget of 60k would you but a long range EV or 530e? Would Ionity charges put you off?

ELM327

4 stops in a 400km journey in Ioniq is nonsense.
You could easily have done it in 2.

irishgrover

ELM327 wrote: »

4 stops in a 400km journey in Ioniq is nonsense.
You could easily have done it in 2.

Yes, I could, If I drove like Ms daisy (not exceeding 95 kmph) and slowly charged up to 85+% and each stop.
thanks but no thanks.

As I already explicitly mentioned I could have done it in 3.

irishgrover

innrain wrote: »

Unfortunately you're right and could be worse if you would have to pay the full Ionity charges.

However, you're not very kind to your Ioniq when you compare it to 530e. And I say this for those who are on the brink of buying a new car and they read your post. As you noted Ioniq is the wrong car for these frequent long journeys. 530e has a starting price double to the Ioniq. Incidentally or probably not Tesla M3 LR is in the same price bracket to 530e. It has about 70kWh and would probably do the journey without refueling at a cost of about a tenner.
Knowing this and if you would have a budget of 60k would you but a long range EV or 530e? Would Ionity charges put you off?

In my situation both are similar as I paid the same money for both. I bought the ioniq when it was 2 months old and the 530e when it was 2 years old. Spend the same money on both. In both cases the cost of purchase is "sunk" so it makes no difference which I use.

For motorway journeys I 100% prefer driving the Ioniq primarily because a.) better lumbar support b.) better driving aids.
My post was more related to the cost differential and also the fact that it's a very uncommon occurrence where driving an ice is as economical as an EV, under any circumstance.
The only reason we bought the 530e was because

• 90% of its driving profile is within pure EV mode.
• It was a very clean car (<12k miles on clock)
• There was no comparable pure EV on the market for the same price.

All things considered I would 100% choose EV over PHEV or ICE, unless you were doing a huge amount of daily driving with no access to destination charging. (not a typical driver profile)

ELM327

irishgrover wrote: »

Yes, I could, If I drove like Ms daisy (not exceeding 95 kmph) and slowly charged up to 85+% and each stop.
thanks but no thanks.

As I already explicitly mentioned I could have done it in 3.

It's not a leaf.

irishgrover

ELM327 wrote:

It's not a leaf.

Respectfully ELM: I know the capabilites of the Ioniq, I know where I live, I know the distances between the chargers and my home and destination and I know that if I want to travel at average speed of >100 Kph then I need 3 charges.

ELM327

Right well then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I did 50k km in my Ioniq and hit turtle (and beyond) a few times, I know on a 400km trip more than 2 charge stops would be overkill for me. Driving 110-120.

usually I would follow the following for a 400km trip, assuming chargers are reachable within 10km of "optimal" point.

Charge to 100% and leave, drive 175km. (It's 175km from my house to Cashel).
Charge to 94% at cashel, 30 minutes.
Drive to Ionity Gorey (160km) and charge up to 94% 30 minutes.
Stop off at the inlaws in Gorey
Drive home 145km.


480km with 2 stops.

(I did the 550km EV rally in an Ioniq with 3 stops in 2017, hence my "overkill" comment)

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Right well then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I did 50k km in my Ioniq and hit turtle (and beyond) a few times, I know on a 400km trip more than 2 charge stops would be overkill for me. Driving 110-120.

usually I would follow the following for a 400km trip, assuming chargers are reachable within 10km of "optimal" point.

Charge to 100% and leave, drive 175km. (It's 175km from my house to Cashel).
Charge to 94% at cashel, 30 minutes.
Drive to Ionity Gorey (160km) and charge up to 94% 30 minutes.
Stop off at the inlaws in Gorey
Drive home 145km.


(I did the 550km EV rally in an Ioniq with 3 stops in 2017, hence my "overkill" comment)

I guess he's spending 45-50 minutes in total charging and you are spending 1 hour in total charging ?

I mean .. your way is probably less hassle with parking/disconnecting etc, time wise I guess his time would be slightly less due to it dropping to around 20kw past 82%.



I'm guessing you have the 30.5kWh?

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

I guess he's spending 45-50 minutes in total charging and you are spending 1 hour in total charging ?

I mean .. your way is probably less hassle with parking/disconnecting etc, time wise I guess his time would be slightly less due to it dropping to around 20kw past 82%.



I'm guessing you have the 30.5kWh?

Classic Ioniq 28. 5-94% in 30 mins or less on a 100kW charger. About 35 mins on a 50kW. That car is super efficient and super fast charging.



I saw in his plan he had a charge for 6 minutes. Sure the detour off and on the motorway and plugging in etc would make that >10.

irishgrover

ELM327 wrote: »

Right well then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I did 50k km in my Ioniq and hit turtle (and beyond) a few times, I know on a 400km trip more than 2 charge stops would be overkill for me. Driving 110-120.

usually I would follow the following for a 400km trip, assuming chargers are reachable within 10km of "optimal" point.

Charge to 100% and leave, drive 175km. (It's 175km from my house to Cashel).
Charge to 94% at cashel, 30 minutes.
Drive to Ionity Gorey (160km) and charge up to 94% 30 minutes.
Stop off at the inlaws in Gorey
Drive home 145km.


480km with 2 stops.

(I did the 550km EV rally in an Ioniq with 3 stops in 2017, hence my "overkill" comment)

That's all well and good, but I don't live in your house and the distance between my house and the chargers I use are different.
Range is a product of your car, the way you drive and the placement of chargers along the route.

In your example of your 400km roundtrip you have ignored that your house happens to be the perfect distance from Cashel, which in turn is the perfect distance from Gorey, which in turn is the perfect distance from your inlaws. (if as you say you reduce your speed)

I've been playing with ABRP and if I limited my max speed to 105 kmph (on a journey that is 380km motorway and 20km non motorway) and it's 15C outside AND there is 0 wind then I could make it in 2 stops, and it would take 4hrs and 53 minutes) However I'm never going to do that because

• I don't want to drive at 105 kmph on a motorway
• It's is an incredibly stupid way to drive a 28 Ioniq because it builds in 0 redundancy into the journey. If a charger is occupied I'm forced to wait, if the charger broken then I'm forced to call a tow truck.

If in theory I want to drive above 105kmph then I will need 3 chargers.
In reality I will always go for 3 charges because

• It's stupid not to
• It's false economy
• (normally I will target Galway Plaza, Ionity Athlone, Kinnegad Plaza because they all have multiple CCS chargers)

If for the same journey I drive at 120kmph, target 3 chargers I (and even allowing for a 10 min overhead per charge) I will still make it home 8 minutes faster. (4 hrs and 45 minutes)

All of which is 98% immaterial to my actual point, relating to EV V ICE costs for these kind of journeys

dloob

Used IONITY Athlone today with my i3.
Not the best experience.
Arrived and all stalls free at least.
Connected to charger 4 started fine with maingau.
After about 20% charger error, restarted and charger error again after a minute.
So moved to charger 3.
Connected and charger immediately goes to out of order with cable locked.
Phone call to IONITY to release and reboot.
It rebooted as out of order.
Ok charger 2, connected and started charging.
15% later charger internal error, charger goes out of order.
At least it unlocked the cable this time.
I had enough at that point so didn’t move again.
It’s good to have multiple chargers at a site but reliability doesn’t seem too great.

KCross

Odd it would fail on multiple chargers in the same way.
I wonder is it a general issue with i3 compatibility or maybe something with yours.

dloob

KCross wrote: »

Odd it would fail on multiple chargers in the same way.
I wonder is it a general issue with i3 compatibility or maybe something with yours.

Yeah strange alright. I have used them before and the cashel ones with no issues at all.
Unlucky today.
Interesting observation, looks like they use Linux for the interface judging by the reboot screen.

Black_Knight

dloob wrote: »

Yeah strange alright. I have used them before and the cashel ones with no issues at all.
Unlucky today.
Interesting observation, looks like they use Linux for the interface judging by the reboot screen.

Doesn't everything.

Real facepalm moment when you realise atms use Windows under the surface.

Are the units the exact same in Athlone as the cashel ones?

dloob

Black_Knight wrote: »

Doesn't everything.

Real facepalm moment when you realise atms use Windows under the surface.

Are the units the exact same in Athlone as the cashel ones?

Yes same type of charges in Cashel and Athlone.

AndyBoBandy

I'm sure I asked before,

but can I go to an Ionity and use it without being signed up to any service provider? Thus paying the full rate of €0.79 per kWh?

If so, how? do you just stick your credit card in to start a session?

(taking a spin down to Kilkenny, and should have enough range to get there and back, but want a back up to my back up (which will be Kilcullen)).

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I'm sure I asked before,

but can I go to an Ionity and use it without being signed up to any service provider? Thus paying the full rate of €0.79 per kWh?

If so, how? do you just stick your credit card in to start a session?

(taking a spin down to Kilkenny, and should have enough range to get there and back, but want a back up to my back up (which will be Kilcullen)).

Yes, you use the Ionity app. You cannot just rock up and swipe the card.
Just sign up for maingau, you can use the app straight away on Ionity.


Even chargepoint is 20c/kWh less than Ionity

AndyBoBandy

For Maingau, we still have to use Chrome, and translate it to English right?

Then do we use credit card details, or bank account details? I’m wondering it it worth the hassle for the maybe once every few years I might need to use an Ionity!!

Are the Ionity or Chargepoint apps any less hassle to sign up to?

redcup342

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

For Maingau, we still have to use Chrome, and translate it to English right?

Then do we use credit card details, or bank account details? I’m wondering it it worth the hassle for the maybe once every few years I might need to use an Ionity!!

Are the Ionity or Chargepoint apps any less hassle to sign up to?

Well it doesn't cost anything to sign up and it saves you a significant amount when you do need to use it. Better to have Maingau than not have it I would say.

Black_Knight

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

For Maingau, we still have to use Chrome, and translate it to English right?

Then do we use credit card details, or bank account details? I’m wondering it it worth the hassle for the maybe once every few years I might need to use an Ionity!!

Are the Ionity or Chargepoint apps any less hassle to sign up to?

Ionity is simple. Maingau isn't that difficult. Most the app is in english anyways. I believe 1 stumbling block was the postcode, and the solution was to put your Eircode in all caps. :rolleyes:

When I signed up it was bank account only, but no problem with that. Typical of Germany.

I think chargepoint is slightly cheaper than Ionity, but i've not bothered with it. Maingau ftw