IONITY - charging / fees / tips

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

Irish Ionity sites are 175kW peak.

Surely they're limited by the battery pack voltage? Only the 800V cars like the Taycan or Ioniq 5 can utilise the 350kW


400V cars are limited to 175kW

ELM327

I'm well aware of 400v vs 800v thanks
They are limited by voltage, by amperage (max amps on fully supplied ionity site is 500a)but in this instance they are software and hardware and site supply limited.

If you plug a Taycan in in Gorey Ionity you will not get higher than 175kW. There is not a unit there with hardware capable of delivering more than that. Be it 800v or 400v, there simply isnt the supply there or the hardware capable of delivereing the power.

slave1

In reality though is there any difference between 175kW and 350kW for 95%+ of Irish EV drivers, and this is Ionity with their dissuading pricing

ELM327

No there isnt at the moment.

ELM327

peposhi wrote: »

Where are the 4x350kW located, slave1?

Ionity. Bring your credit card and a second mortage as they are 80c per kWh/

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm well aware of 400v vs 800v thanks
They are limited by voltage, by amperage (max amps on fully supplied ionity site is 500a)but in this instance they are software and hardware and site supply limited.

If you plug a Taycan in in Gorey Ionity you will not get higher than 175kW. There is not a unit there with hardware capable of delivering more than that. Be it 800v or 400v, there simply isnt the supply there or the hardware capable of delivereing the power.

Just checking


I guess the ESB must charge a lot more for a 1.4MW connection versus a 700kW one. I wonder is it a grid issue in that the connection isn't there and Ionity didn't want to pay for the required improvements?


Or is it a case that ESB set the price high and Ionity didn't want to pay

wassie

slave1 wrote: »

In reality though is there any difference between 175kW and 350kW for 95%+ of Irish EV drivers, and this is Ionity with their dissuading pricing

Not in the middle of winter - early last month when we had the cold spell, it was 1 degree early morning at Circkle K Athlone services, I maxed out at 27kW thanks to cold batteries and even colder Ionity charging infrastructure.

Silent Running

It looks like VW are moving away from Ionity. They are now not offering discounts at Ionity for buyers of their cars.


They are now pushing a new network in collaboration with BP and Iberdrola.

I wonder what happened at Ionity that caused this move away by VW.

ELM327

Probably the other parties not wanting to invest more.

redcup342

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Just checking


I guess the ESB must charge a lot more for a 1.4MW connection versus a 700kW one. I wonder is it a grid issue in that the connection isn't there and Ionity didn't want to pay for the required improvements?


Or is it a case that ESB set the price high and Ionity didn't want to pay

You can just put a power storage solution onside to get around that issue.

Tesvolt have a 2MWh storage solution at the Rapid Charging site in Hilden Germany.

the_amazing_raisin

Silent Running wrote: »

It looks like VW are moving away from Ionity. They are now not offering discounts at Ionity for buyers of their cars.


They are now pushing a new network in collaboration with BP and Iberdrola.

I wonder what happened at Ionity that caused this move away by VW.

Strictly speaking they were never a partner, Audi and Porsche were partners and VW by proxy


I think VW looks at Ionity in comparison to Electrify America


While EA has it's problems, in terms of scale of investment it's quite a distance ahead ($2bn versus €200 million) so has no touble in getting cash to build new stations


VW has expressed frustration in the past with having to get the Ionity partners to invest more money


Maybe VW feels it can do better if it goes it alone and builds a rival network


The great irony of course is that VW was forced into creating EA out of the Dieselgate settlement. It could like end up being a great asset in the coming years

the_amazing_raisin

redcup342 wrote: »

You can just put a power storage solution onside to get around that issue.

Tesvolt have a 2MWh storage solution at the Rapid Charging site in Hilden Germany.

Yeah but that requires investment and I guess Ionity isn't seeing the traffic in Ireland that would justify that amount of cash

Kramer

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah but that requires investment and I guess Ionity isn't seeing the traffic in Ireland that would justify that amount of cash

Nor will they at 80c/kWh :eek:.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Nor will they at 80c/kWh :eek:.

Kramer, did you forget again that most of Ionity's target customers have a much lower rate via the car manufacturer?

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Kramer, did you forget again that most of Ionity's target customers have a much lower rate via the car manufacturer?

I've heard that VW may be leaving the alliance. If it's VW group, that'll be no ID.3s, ID.4s, eTrons, Taycans, Enyaqs, el-Borns.........
No Chademo so Leafs are out.
Tesla are quite a big seller here too - no love for them from Ionity .

AFAIK, BMW, Hyundai & others have no system in place here either for reduced Ionity rates. People jump on the next €uropean MSP who has a better rate, even though they don't last long & are bothersome to initiate.

Yes, Ionity was developed as a manufacturer specific carrott, to incentivise sales. They happily took millions in taxpayer funding though & have basically given the middle finger to many BEV drivers - 80c/kWh is a GFU rate :pac:.

€40 to charge my Model 3 at Kill, to get back to Limerick from Dublin is extortionate & double the median cost per kWh, throughout €urope.

Yes, CapEx needs to be recouped, as do the ongoing maintenance costs, the likely saucy grid supply fee ESB charged them, a premium for charger availability & speed etc., yep, I acknowledge all that.............but if they sit there idle 90% of the time, which I bet they will at 80c/kWh, well.............it will benefit no one.

[/END RANT]

.

liamog

The rumours were that VW Group aren't happy with the speed of expansion so were looking to expand in their own additionally. Instead in the last three days Ionity are running a €500 million funding round. That's a lot of the money to be raising and should pay for another 250 sites, probably more if they get co development funding from government and site owners.

BMW will only be offering discounts when the IX3 starts sales, Hyundai Group have only just be cleared by competiton authorities to join. They'll probably only offer discounts starting from the Ioniq 5.

At least Ionity give access to your Tesla, instead of locking out the plebs like the supercharger network

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Kramer, did you forget again that most of Ionity's target customers have a much lower rate via the car manufacturer?

Very few MSP deals via car manufacturers actually exist right now on the ground to be fair.


I'd say the majority is still done via chargepoint/some random german MSP/ionity themselves as opposed to the manufacturer deals.


And even at that, the biggest one was VAG, with Etron, Taycan etc.

innrain

Kramer wrote: »

... People jump on the next €uropean MSP who has a better rate, even though they don't last long & are bothersome to initiate.

[/END RANT]

.

Just to add another nail: Rodau increased prices for newcomers

"Customers who register after February 15, 2021 pay 94.00 ct / kWh (excluding RODAUSTROM and existing customers)." linky

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Very few MSP deals via car manufacturers actually exist right now on the ground to be fair.


I'd say the majority is still done via chargepoint/some random german MSP/ionity themselves as opposed to the manufacturer deals.


And even at that, the biggest one was VAG, with Etron, Taycan etc.

That’s only really true in Ireland. Most IONITY member manufacturers seem to offer a subscription in the rest of Europe, for example BMW and ChargeNow (now called BMW Charging)

innrain

MJohnston wrote: »

That’s only really true in Ireland. Most IONITY member manufacturers seem to offer a subscription in the rest of Europe, for example BMW and ChargeNow (now called BMW Charging)

Ionity is still 79c with this unless you pay 13 quid a month which reduces to 35c/kWh.

Hyundai/Kia have it in some countries in Europe as well.

This is going to be the the way in near future where manufacturers will get a slice from the charging by providing one 4 all cards for their customers. Unfortunately we are a too small market for them to count.

wassie

VW is not out of Ionity. In fact quite the opposite. At their 'Power day' presentation, as well as an announcement on a massive battery investment, they are also undertaking a big expansion on the charging infrastructure in Europe.

Expanding the global fast-charging network: Partnerships with BP, Iberdrola and Enel

Volkswagen’s battery offensive is being accompanied by a large-scale expansion of the fast-charging network. Along with its partners, the company intends to operate about 18,000 public fast-charging points in Europe by 2025. This represents a five-fold expansion of the fast-charging network compared to today and corresponds to about one third of the total demand predicted on the continent for 2025.

This will be done through a series of strategic partnerships in addition to the joint venture IONITY. Volkswagen wants to establish about 8,000 fast-charging points throughout Europe together with BP. The fast-chargers with a charging capacity of 150 kW will be installed at a total of 4,000 BP and ARAL service stations, with the majority of these in Germany and Great Britain. In cooperation with Iberdrola, Volkswagen will cover main traffic routes in Spain. In Italy, Volkswagen wants to collaborate with Enel to establish the fast-charging network both along motorways and in urban areas. Volkswagen will invest about €400 million in the European programme as a whole by 2025, with further investments being borne by external partners.

Volkswagen is expanding the public fast-charging network in the US and China too. Electrify America is planning around 3,500 fast-charging points in North America by the end of the year. In China, a total of 17,000 fast-charging points are being targeted by Volkswagen by 2025 through the CAMS joint venture.

Don't this is on the back of Ford announcing they are going all electric in Europe, backed by transforming their existing plant in Cologne.

redcup342

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Surely they're limited by the battery pack voltage? Only the 800V cars like the Taycan or Ioniq 5 can utilise the 350kW


400V cars are limited to 175kW

A bit faster than that.

the_amazing_raisin

redcup342 wrote: »

A bit faster than that.

Cool, which charger was that at?

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Cool, which charger was that at?

A German one I'd imagine

redcup342

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Cool, which charger was that at?

Tesla V3 Supercharger (yes in Germany)

Same deal on alpitronic Hyperchargers too.

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

A bit faster than that.

I presume he was talking about Ionity chargers and not in general.


You can charge a 400v battery at 350+ kW if you can supply enough amps and the battery bms will allow it.


Even the TM3 is not that impressive. 82kWh battery charging at 250kW is 3C. Good but not outstanding. I'm sure there's better tech out there. Ioniq28 was doing 3C back in 2016!

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

I presume he was talking about Ionity chargers and not in general.


You can charge a 400v battery at 350+ kW if you can supply enough amps and the battery bms will allow it.


Even the TM3 is not that impressive. 82kWh battery charging at 250kW is 3C. Good but not outstanding. I'm sure there's better tech out there. Ioniq28 was doing 3C back in 2016!

Beat me to it


Yes to qualify my earlier statement, I'm fairly sure Ionity chargers are limited to 175kW at 400V


Having said that, I heard a statement recently that newer Ionity chargers are actually rated for 450kW, so that would give 225kW at 400V


The source was Matt Watson from Carwow however, so I'm treating that with extreme skepticism until someone confirms it

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Even the TM3 is not that impressive. 82kWh battery charging at 250kW is 3C. Good but not outstanding. I'm sure there's better tech out there. Ioniq28 was doing 3C back in 2016!

A little above 2C , not 3C!
(70kW max, 31.5kWh battery)

Current Li-ion tech doesnt really allow for significantly better unless you want to compromise battery lifespan or you have really good cooling capability.... its the "age old" problem they have with balancing speed, health, density, weight, cost etc etc.... you solve one problem and create a problem in one of the other areas.

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Beat me to it


Yes to qualify my earlier statement, I'm fairly sure Ionity chargers are limited to 175kW at 400V


Having said that, I heard a statement recently that newer Ionity chargers are actually rated for 450kW, so that would give 225kW at 400V


The source was Matt Watson from Carwow however, so I'm treating that with extreme skepticism until someone confirms it

The limit is actually amperage. 500a is the limit.
Model 3 LR can charge at 192kW there.
Theoretically if you have a car with 450 nominal voltage (like etron, Ipace etc) and a high BMS curve (like TM3), you could charge at 225kW without using 800V

KCross wrote: »

A little above 2C , not 3C!
(70kW max, 31.5kWh battery)

Current Li-ion tech doesnt really allow for significantly better unless you want to compromise battery lifespan or you have really good cooling capability.... its the "age old" problem they have with balancing speed, health, density, weight, cost etc etc.... you solve one problem and create a problem in one of the other areas.

Ah the old gross v net, always gets me with the korean cars.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

The limit is actually amperage. 500a is the limit.
Model 3 LR can charge at 192kW there.
Theoretically if you have a car with 450 nominal voltage (like etron, Ipace etc) and a high BMS curve (like TM3), you could charge at 225kW without using 800V

Will it actually go to 500A? I think that's what the cable is rated for so I'm guessing the charger would software limit to a lower value


It'd be nice if more manufacturers pushed towards the upper limit of the 400V chargers. Some cars seem to be around the 350V mark which makes fast charging very inefficient