Mass shooting in el paso

dodderangler

steddyeddy wrote: »

But again we don't have a problem with mass shootings and gun crime like the states does.

As for more guns meaning more crime well that’s false straight away. There’s more murders in Florida California and Chicago than anywhere else in America. They are all gun free zones.

steddyeddy

dodderangler wrote: »

As for more guns meaning more crime well that’s false straight away. There’s more murders in Florida California and Chicago than anywhere else in America. They are all gun free zones.

D I mean this in the nicest possible way but please go to America and learn about it before you post stuff like that. I don't know what's behind all this but there seems to be an Irish form of America politics popping up on Boards. You had several claiming "Dem run cities are sh1tholes" despite never been there.

What you said about "gun free zones" in Chicago of all places is ludicrous.

batgoat

steddyeddy wrote: »

But again we don't have a problem with mass shootings and gun crime like the states does.

And I've encountered some genuinely disturbing attitudes from Americans in relation to what they're willing to teach their children. Eg met a guy who taught his 9 year old daughter to shoot to kill if there was an intruder in their house. She knew where every gun in their house was for this reason.

steddyeddy

dodderangler wrote: »

As for more guns meaning more crime well that’s false straight away .

Well I'm afraid the data shows you're completely misinformed on the matter D.

tuxy

dodderangler wrote: »

As for more guns meaning more crime well that’s false straight away. There’s more murders in Florida California and Chicago than anywhere else in America. They are all gun free zones.

Not a good argument when the areas you talk about are surrounded by areas with very liberal gun laws. Actually you could argue that have such strict gun laws in areas that are only a few miles away from areas without these laws leads to the nightmare levels of gun crime that Chicago has.

SeanW

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's a strange point that some people should just be wealthy and people feel wealthy people should make decisions for them. Just look at the attitudes towards inheritance tax. The most ardent supporters of meritocracy will support inheritance without tax. The very opposite to merit, is inheriting wealth.

Likewise people feel more Comfortable with wealthy people in power. I'm often amused by the American republicans who slag off AOC for having recently been a bar worker. You'd think they would be all about someone pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. But in reality, they straddle both sides.


On a separate note I chatted with an English bloke about this and he opposed inheritance tax because, the British nobility system would collapse in a generation if interitance was abolished. I asked if he thought the nobility was a good thing and he said "no". It's amazing how people just believe that some people should be born extremely wealthy but would also support meritocracy.

Inheritance taxes are a form of double-taxation. If I had kids, and I wanted to leave a financial legacy for them, I would have to earn a whole pile of money, on which I would be income-taxed up to half. In all Western countries, there are also extensive non-Income taxes that can also take up a huge chunk of your pay cheque. Property taxes, sales taxes or VAT, taxes on cars, petrol, you might spend your whole life giving most of your money to various levels of government.

So after a lifetime of working your backside off and giving most of it to the government in taxes, levies and "fees", you leave your kid a house and a lump sum. Only if there's inheritance tax, the kid might have to sell the house if the government wants 50% of everything. At some point, you're just taxing people to the point where it's not worth it, and inheritance tax could be part of that.

Also in the United States there is much more social mobility, no system of gentry like the UK. Cornelius Vanderbilt started with nothing, and amassed the worlds greatest fortune, which he left to his descendants. But those descendants didn't take care of it, with Reginald Claypool Vanderbilt having been the most careless. When Gloria Vanderbilt died recently, she told her son Anderson Cooper "there is no trust fund". Mark Zuckerberg started out sharing a dormatory room while in college. Anyone can make a fortune and anyone (like the Vanderbilt children) can inherit a fortune and blow it.

As to AOC, Republicans don't make fun of her for having been a bartender, they make fun of her saying she should go back to bar-tending. Major difference.

markodaly

jill_valentine wrote: »

But those things aren’t untrue...

That they were losers? Perhaps but as I said it you want quick twitter-like soundbites to understand the mentality of the issue and its contributing factors, then yea, putting someone into the 'loser' box might make you sleep easier at night or make you appear woke on the internet but its a much deeper and complicated problem than that.

There was a complete failure, imho, to understand the Colombine killers at the time, and a whole semi-sympathetic mythology was built around them which Michael Moore's movie helped contribute to.

The narrative of the shooters as victims of bullying who just snapped, or miscellaneously frustrated outcasts, was set out early on and repeated uncritically, until it became the template on how these people are presented in media.

I think you are wrong there. The Columbine shooters themselves were relentlessly bullied while teachers watched on and accepted it. There was a reason why they targetted 'The Jocks' and all this is quite documented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Other_factors

The link between bullying and school violence has attracted increasing attention since the massacre. Both of the shooters were classified as gifted children who had allegedly been victims of bullying for years. Early stories following the shootings charged that school administrators and teachers at Columbine had long condoned bullying.[160] Critics said this could have contributed to triggering the perpetrators' extreme violence.[161] Klebold said on the Basement Tapes, "You've been giving us **** for years."[25]

Accounts from various parents and school staffers describe bullying at the school as "rampant."[162] Nathan Vanderau, a friend of Klebold, and Alisa Owen, Harris's eighth-grade science partner, reported that Harris and Klebold were constantly picked on. Vanderau noted that a "cup of fecal matter" was thrown at them.[163] Reportedly, they were regularly called "******s".[164]

Klebold is known to have remarked to his father of his hatred of the jocks at CHS, adding that Harris in particular had been victimized. Klebold had stated, "They sure give Eric hell."[165] Classmate Chad Laughlin stated "A lot of the tension in the school came from the class above us...There were people fearful of walking by a table where you knew you didn't belong, stuff like that. Certain groups certainly got preferential treatment across the board." Brown also noted Harris was born with mild chest indent. This made him reluctant to take his shirt off in gym class, and other students would laugh at him.[166]

A year after the massacre, an analysis by officials at the U.S. Secret Service of 37 premeditated school shootings found that bullying, which some of the shooters described "in terms that approached torment", played the major role in more than two-thirds of the attacks.[167] A similar theory was expounded by Brooks Brown in his book on the massacre, No Easy Answers; he noted that teachers commonly ignored bullying and that whenever Harris and Klebold were bullied by the jocks at CHS, they would make statements such as: "Don't worry, man. It happens all the time!"[168]

During junior year, Harris and Klebold both had been confronted by a group of students at CHS—all members of the football team—who sprayed them with ketchup and mustard while referring to them as "******s" and "queers".[169] According to Brown, "People surrounded them in the commons and squirted ketchup packets all over them, laughing at them, calling them ******s...That happened while teachers watched. They couldn't fight back. They wore the ketchup all day and went home covered with it." Laughlin stated "I caught the tail end of one really horrible incident, and I know Dylan told his mother that it was the worst day of his life."[169] According to Laughlin, it involved seniors pelting Klebold with "ketchup-covered tampons" in the commons.[170]

The reality is, both Columbine shooters were known *as bullies* by their fellow students. This is true of a huge proportion of teen shooters - they consider themselves pushed-to-the-brink victims,

Do you have any actual evidence to this statement, as the report commissioned by the Secret Service, reference above, directly contradicts this.

The major lapse in Moore's treatment of them is in barely even mentioning that Klebold and Harris were enthusiastic Neo Nazis. They were not shy about telling people as much, writing and bragging about it at length, Harris in particular based his whole personal identity around it. *They* considered it a big part of their mindset, but it was something only mentioned incidentally in coverage at the time - far behind all the music and videogame stuff.

Again, do you have actual substantive proof on this, because anything I have seen is tenuous at best.

Now if you or I were making a movie unpicking the circumstances that produced Columbine, would that not seem like something worth exploring in depth? Maybe somebody prone to thinking everyone in their school is out to get them and should be attacked, is also prone to thinking black people, women, immigrants etc out to get them. Maybe the consistent persecution complex of these folks could have had more to do with what happened than some random missile factory?

Perhaps it was explored in-depth but it didn't lead anywhere because the references to them being Neo-Nazis extended as far as them wearing trenchcoats. We are going down the video-games, Marilynn Manson boogeyman here with this I feel.

If someone is prone to think everyone is out to get them, that is a sign of mental illness first and foremost. Which is actually my point, your Nazi scaremongering aside. Perhaps if the mental illness was treated, these people would not have gone out to kill other people, no matter what their internal perceived motivations were.

Maybe it's simpler than we often want to think it is.

I sincerely doubt it personally. Neo-Nazi's under the bed references aside its a simple narrative that is easily pedaled in this media-fueled frenzy about anything racial.

But alas, no one today has time to actually think through some of the root causes here.

markodaly

steddyeddy wrote: »

D I mean this in the nicest possible way but please go to America and learn about it before you post stuff like that. I don't know what's behind all this but there seems to be an Irish form of America politics popping up on Boards. You had several claiming "Dem run cities are sh1tholes" despite never been there.

What you said about "gun free zones" in Chicago of all places is ludicrous.

Maybe a little off topic but 51% of all gun murders happen in two counties, while 54% of counties had no gun murders. Gun crime, is generally concentrated in a few small areas, where the majority of it happens.

Shooting sprees are a bit different I know.

steddyeddy

batgoat wrote: »

And I've encountered some genuinely disturbing attitudes from Americans in relation to wussy they're willing to teach their children. Eg met a guy who taught his 9 year old daughter to shoot to kill if there was an intruder in their house. She knew where every gun in their house was for this reason.

Yea the same. I know some people genuinely dying for a home invasion to take place. Angry people who just want to point a gun at someone that they feel represents their problems and pull the trigger.

Manic Moran

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Your 12 year old? Jesus Christ.

The fact that you responded in such a shocked manner indicates your lack of familiarity with the sport. As mentioned, an Irish kid can shoot at 14, and Ireland is one of the most restrictive countries with guns. A month from now, the Knabenschiessen is being held. Thousands of people will descend upon this festival in order to discover which children aged between 13 and 17 will be crowned the shooting king and queen, they must use the Swiss Army assault rifle. (With an attachment which blocks the full- auto setting).

Either you should be horrified that a European country should make youth shooting a nationally covered event, or maybe you should reconsider just why you think a 12 year old should not be capable of enjoying the sport of shooting.

BorneTobyWilde

Surely they could at least out law real ammo for these guns. You can have the gun, but not the ammo.

Gbear

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

There isn't always an idealogy behind these type of attacks. Unfortunately for Americans, these type of attacks have sunken in the psyche of the mentally unstable in the states.

For some ****ed up reason, in the states when some lunatic decides he has a gripe with the world, he goes out and shoots up the world.

In the Middle East and other places, its religion or some warped ideology.

People can and will find ways to hurt people. But in the states hurting numerous amounts of people is on easy mode. There is no solution to this problem until people agree what the common denominator is - it's America this will not happen.

True. The Dayton Ohio one appears not to have had a broader political motive, but there's a far higher prevalence of terrorist attacks in the US.

We know all about that in Ireland, but we, through actions like the GFA were able to dramatically reduce the rate of these attacks.
We had a sociopolitical problem that was causing violence so we addressed it and it got a lot better.

In the US, the right wing of the political class aren't diffusing this problem. They're cynically exploiting it and ramping it up for political gain.

At every turn the Republican party sabotage any effort to improve poverty, education, drug abuse, healthcare in general and sexual health in particular.
Bereft of any actually useful policies, they instead invent problems around race and identity that don't need solving to change the focus from providing useful leadership to instead be dangerous demagogues.

tuxy

Why is Trump trying to implement something that will benefit these shooters?
They few that are caught alive are terrified of spending the rest of their lives behind bars but would welcome death.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1158424951503884292

notobtuse

tuxy wrote: »

Why is Trump trying to implement something that will benefit these shooters?
They few that are caught alive are terrified of spending the rest of their lives behind bars but would welcome death.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1158424951503884292

Because they do fear death, otherwise they would have committed 'death by cop.'

steddyeddy

Gbear wrote: »

True. The Dayton Ohio one appears not to have had a broader political motive, but there's a far higher prevalence of terrorist attacks in the US.

We know all about that in Ireland, but we, through actions like the GFA were able to dramatically reduce the rate of these attacks.
We had a sociopolitical problem that was causing violence so we addressed it and it got a lot better.

In the US, the right wing of the political class aren't diffusing this problem. They're cynically exploiting it and ramping it up for political gain.

At every turn the Republican party sabotage any effort to improve poverty, education, drug abuse, healthcare in general and sexual health in particular.
Bereft of any actually useful policies, they instead invent problems around race and identity that don't need solving to change the focus from providing useful leadership to instead be dangerous demagogues.

Spot on. It's amazing that their policies favour the wealthy while their demographic is the poor. They're in power in 94% of the poorest states in the US.

Guy:Incognito

Hopefully the people of Toledo are comforted today.........

Igotadose

steddyeddy wrote: »

Spot on. It's amazing that their policies favour the wealthy while their demographic is the poor. They're in power in 94% of the poorest states in the US.

Gerrymandering and voter suppression is something the GOP's very good at.

steddyeddy

Igotadose wrote: »

Gerrymandering and voter suppression is something the GOP's very good at.

Also appealing to Baptists with their regressive religious policies.

Redneck Reject

When I was growing up, we had 2 firearms in the house that never left the property. A 30.30 for deer hunting and a shotgun we referred to as the snake charmer.But we were reared by parents who actually took care of their kids. Not like today where kids are being reared by the internet and technology.They become desensitized by things in video games,youtube,and gore sites. With no parent around to explain things or to limit what they are exposed to.

Add in the fact when they become of age they can go out and buy weapons designed for the battlefield. No one can ever give me a logical reason for owning a AR15,SKS,etc for hunting. If you need something along those lines go back to firearms class because your clearly a crappy shot. IMHO it starts with the parents and only escalates with society if the kids are not taught to deal with the stresses of growing up.

SlipperyPeople

haven't read through this thread and not sure I want to but having been personally been in that exact walmart last month the news has been terrifying.

I've family living in el paso and were there in that mall at the time of the shootings.

RIP to all the dead.

steddyeddy

Trump demands immigration reform in the wake of mass shooting. I was criticised for it before but I genuinely think people who still support him have a lot to answer for.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-tweet-el-paso-dayton-shooting-attack-latest-gun-control-law-immigration-reform-a9039651.html

Outlaw Pete

Gbear wrote: »

At every turn the Republican party sabotage any effort to improve poverty, education, drug abuse, healthcare in general and sexual health in particular.

Utter nonsense.

Bereft of any actually useful policies, they instead invent problems around race and identity that don't need solving to change the focus from providing useful leadership to instead be dangerous demagogues.

Explain to us all then why race relations got so bad from 2008 to 2016.

Identity politics flourished under Obama and it's in the liberal democrat voting community were they thrive.

Who do you think you're kidding with this stuff exactly.

MrFresh

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Utter nonsense.



Explain to us all then why race relations got so bad from 2008 to 2016.

Identity politics flourished under Obama and it's in the liberal democrat voting community were they thrive.

Who do you think you're kidding with this stuff exactly.

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is that there was a lot of resistance to black people becoming more equal.

FatherTed

I had a little incident yesterday at a classic car show here in Connecticut, this one guy passed by wearing a t-shirt with "I Plead the 2nd" and what looked like an AR-15 on it. Less than 24 hours after El Paso. Rolling my eyes I said "WTF man" and he said "F-off dipshyt". I left it at that.

The whole mental health is just another red herring in this debate much like video games, Marilyn Manson, etc in the past. In fact the video games one is making a come back with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick blaming them now. The latest is young people don't pray enough.

It's just another distraction from the obvious problems that the US has with guns. It's quite a shock to be at a Home Depot in an open carry state to see these guys shopping with a pistol attached to their hip. The fact that the pro-run crowd have no interest on proposing ANYTHING leaves to believe this will only get worse. If Newtown could not encourage anything to be done on a federal level I don't know what will.

If it was up to me I'd just repeal the 2nd amendment these guys hide behind. They have not shown any capacity to engage in any meaningful dialog. I don't even get the whole hunting as a sport thing. You, some big burly man hiding up in some tree with your rifle or whatever versus some deer. That's not an even fight.

Actually maybe it is a mental illness thing after all. I think those having to need to possess these weapons do have some sort of mental illness going on.

Guy:Incognito

Redneck Reject wrote: »

Not like today where kids are being reared by the internet and technology.They become desensitized by things in video games,youtube,and gore sites. With no parent around to explain things or to limit what they are exposed to.
.

This has been trotted out for decades with every new thing that comes along.

BattleCorp

Redneck Reject wrote: »

When I was growing up, we had 2 firearms in the house that never left the property. A 30.30 for deer hunting and a shotgun we referred to as the snake charmer.But we were reared by parents who actually took care of their kids. Not like today where kids are being reared by the internet and technology.They become desensitized by things in video games,youtube,and gore sites. With no parent around to explain things or to limit what they are exposed to.

Add in the fact when they become of age they can go out and buy weapons designed for the battlefield. No one can ever give me a logical reason for owning a AR15,SKS,etc for hunting. If you need something along those lines go back to firearms class because your clearly a crappy shot. IMHO it starts with the parents and only escalates with society if the kids are not taught to deal with the stresses of growing up.

I agree with the first paragraph that you wrote. I grew up in a similar house. My dad had a shotgun and a .22lr rifle. And I was taught to show respect for firearms and I believe I still do to this day.

I've used an AR15 for competition shooting. Great fun and totally legal. I've never used them for hunting but it's a .223 so would be suitable for foxes and other vermin. I've no problem whatsoever with an AR15 as long as it is in the right hands.

steddyeddy

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Utter nonsense.

That's not a rebuttal. That's a vacuous statement. The facts are that Republicans control 18 out of the 19 poorest states.

Explain to us all then why race relations got so bad from 2008 to 2016.

Identity politics flourished under Obama and it's in the liberal democrat voting community were they thrive.

Yes I can explain it to you Pete. An African American man got elected and republicans incited hate by criticising him based on two main forms of attack:

• He wasn't born in the US
  
• He's a Muslim

In other words republican party members criticised Obama based on his perceived ethnicity and immigrant status. Here's how the GOP fan base reacted when he was elected:









Now Pete I'll give you a chance to reply. You're point is that Obama played a part in identity politics. Can you give me an example of anything Obama did that was like the types of things Trump said about Obama's identity?

8-10

steddyeddy wrote: »

Then you don't know what Lib, Dem or republican means. There's nothing like those here.

There's no republicans in Ireland!

FatherTed

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Utter nonsense.



Explain to us all then why race relations got so bad from 2008 to 2016.

Identity politics flourished under Obama and it's in the liberal democrat voting community were they thrive.

Who do you think you're kidding with this stuff exactly.

Because the racists here couldn't stand the sight of a black man as President e.g. the first thing McConnell said his sole purpose was to get Obama out of office and the likes of Trump drumming up the whole birther thing.

steddyeddy

FatherTed wrote: »

I had a little incident yesterday at a classic car show here in Connecticut, this one guy passed by wearing a t-shirt with "I Plead the 2nd" and what looked like an AR-15 on it. Less than 24 hours after El Paso. Rolling my eyes I said "WTF man" and he said "F-off dipshyt". I left it at that.

The whole mental health is just another red herring in this debate much like video games, Marilyn Manson, etc in the past. In fact the video games one is making a come back with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick blaming them now. The latest is young people don't pray enough.

It's just another distraction from the obvious problems that the US has with guns. It's quite a shock to be at a Home Depot in an open carry state to see these guys shopping with a pistol attached to their hip. The fact that the pro-run crowd have no interest on proposing ANYTHING leaves to believe this will only get worse. If Newtown could not encourage anything to be done on a federal level I don't know what will.

If it was up to me I'd just repeal the 2nd amendment these guys hide behind. They have not shown any capacity to engage in any meaningful dialog. I don't even get the whole hunting as a sport thing. You, some big burly man hiding up in some tree with your rifle or whatever versus some deer. That's not an even fight.

Actually maybe it is a mental illness thing after all. I think those having to need to possess these weapons do have some sort of mental illness going on.

I had a similar incident in Colorado after the Florida school shooting. People were actually more concerned that they might lose their guns than give a sh1t about the people murdered that day.

Even if it saved 90% of lives in America lost each year to gun violence these fanatics wouldn't restrict access to guns.