Is transportation in the Dublin the worst in any European capital?

Franz Von Peppercorn II

The whole obsession about the airport is more a “what will people think of us” rather than an attempt to fix public transport for us.

Pinch Flat

I’d say it’s bottom of the pile when it comes to a capital city anyway. I travel to Amsterdam regularly for work. It’s so stress free getting a metro to and from our office, costs a few euros and is frequent and efficient. Something we will not see here for years.

Our transport system in our capital is in the dark age - public transport and cars. An underfunded mess that sees no sign of getting better anytime soon. The elephant in the room is private cars -buses and luas are heavily impact by private cars clogging up the little available road space. I’d also argue that Dublin is probably the only capital city with out any network of underground traffic passes, taking cars below ground in places.

spurious

We had a 'sort of' train link with the AerDart, but most people (other than airport workers) didn't use it.
It used to be very handy.

odyssey06

spurious wrote: »

We had a 'sort of' train link with the AerDart, but most people (other than airport workers) didn't use it.
It used to be very handy.

Yes, I remember getting that a few times, and would do so again if still running

Now you could get a DART to Malahide or Sutton stations and pick up the 102 to the airport I think?

odyssey06

Realistically I don't see any fundamental changes happening to the issues we've seen over the last decades unless Dublin gets a directly elected mayor with real powers.

Gavin "shels"

dubrov wrote: »

Taxi is less than 20 minutes and for the cheap option, there is Dublin bus which is about 35 minutes.

Taxi may take 20 mins to the city, that's the short part.... it's the queuing for up to an hour for a taxi in the airport which is the long part!

COLONELsANDERS

Get the Dart everyday to work from Sandycove to Tara Street. Very reliable, every 10 mins. Lived in London for many years and regularly had to phone home to say I'd be delayed due to issues on the line. Have only had to do that once in 9 months.

Got the Luas line to work from Red cow for a couple of months last year. Thought it was terrible. After red cow virtually no one would get on it off until Heuston. Train battering through empty industrial estates. By the time it got past Hueston it would crawl through the city at walking pace. In two months I saw two fights.

Would it not have made more sense to send the Luas from tallaght through firhouse, Knocklyon, templeogue, terenure, rathmines then have it join up with the other one at rathgar ?

Lord Glentoran

cdeb wrote: »

Schedules tell you when the bus is going to come. They won't be exact to the minute, granted, but there's still no need to be waiting an hour if you read the schedule first.

And given that the Aircoach runs at worst once an hour, I doubt you've ever waited an hour for one. If you did, that's not unlucky. That's bad planning on your part

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has come close to not getting on a 2am Aircoach. Tbh, I've often wondered why they operate at that time as they're usually empty.


Well, not "either way". If you can't read a timetable, that's hardly their fault. I've always found the Aircoach to be excellent, if pricey. Yes, it's slow, but that's the nature of public transport making lots of stops. Happens everywhere.

How about a print advert for Aircoach - shiny eyed woman tripping gaily off an aircoach with the tagline “I’ve just come - on Aircoach!”

OneOfThem Stumbled

Lisbon has a wonderful underground system, which they are still improving upon. Maybe the Irish government should look to how they did it?



One of the big problems is trying to build where there are already buildings. The residential streets in Dublin's suburbs have frustratingly little space around them (they always squeeze as much out of the space as possible), meaning that developing roads or rail in these areas is a challenge.

Could the bay be used for a rail and/or road bridge.

Again Lisbon has one of these road bridge things.



If most of the coast traffic going into the city could be diverted though something like this (that could essentially act as the non-existent eastern wing of the M50) then perhaps a lot of the routes into the city could be streamlined, thus much improving the bus networks that go though RDS on the south or North Wall on the north? Just a thought.

Lord Glentoran

Elemonator wrote: »

True, I'll refine my statement. There should be a public link. The ones I have observed in other European cities included rail and bus services. The Berlin buses are operated by BVG. Tegel Airport doesn't have a direct rail link but there are multiple bus lines with frequent buses. Schonefeld has rail and bus connections. The new Brandenburg airport will have both also.

Aircoach on the other hand is a private entity I believe. Aircoach is also frequently at capacity. Not overly frequent either. I do think the airport could do with a metro or DART Underground connection.

The old Aer Rianta made too much money off car parking to want a rail connection. In my memory they actually lobbied against it - Official Ireland doing dysfunctional stuff to protect mini empires against the greater good.

Nor should anyone be surprised that Aircoach doesn’t want a rail connection either. Expect more “I’ve just Come - on Aircoach!” Interjeculations from their cheerleaders before rails get anywhere near the airport.

L1011

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Lisbon has a wonderful underground system, which they are still improving upon. Maybe the Irish government should look to how they did it?

A fascist junta with limited restrictions on property to build the core network? Could work :pac:

Peregrine

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

If most of the coast traffic going into the city could be diverted though something like this (that could essentially act as the non-existent eastern wing of the M50) then perhaps a lot of the routes into the city could be streamlined, thus much improving the bus networks that go though RDS on the south or North Wall on the north? Just a thought.

Building more roads won't solve traffic. It'll be full before we know it and there'll be people asking for more lanes, another bypass etc.

Look up induced traffic and traffic evaporation.

IAmTheReign

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I doubt there are many other major cities where the only way to get from the main airport to the city is by a bus

There's loads. Off the top of my head airports I've flown into that can only be reached by bus (at best) include Liverpool, Edinburgh, Budapest, Basel, Berlin Tegel, both airports in Bangkok and both airports in Istanbul.

L1011

Edinburgh Airport has trams now.

Ush1

COLONELsANDERS wrote: »

Get the Dart everyday to work from Sandycove to Tara Street. Very reliable, every 10 mins. Lived in London for many years and regularly had to phone home to say I'd be delayed due to issues on the line. Have only had to do that once in 9 months.

Got the Luas line to work from Red cow for a couple of months last year. Thought it was terrible. After red cow virtually no one would get on it off until Heuston. Train battering through empty industrial estates. By the time it got past Hueston it would crawl through the city at walking pace. In two months I saw two fights.

Would it not have made more sense to send the Luas from tallaght through firhouse, Knocklyon, templeogue, terenure, rathmines then have it join up with the other one at rathgar ?

The Red Line is fairly brutal. The only positive thing is that it's frequent but it's so slow. Stops too often and is I would imagine near capacity, especially the Citywest trams. I have the option of Luas or bus and I almost always take the bus unless I'm heading to the 3 arena or docklands.

PhilOssophy

I love the obsession with the Metro to the airport.
When people realise after it is built that the bus through the port tunnel is still the quickest (and probably cheapest) way to get into town from the airport (15-20 minutes), I can see the outrage already.
Just like the Swords express will be quicker than the Metro from Swords.
But I suppose people love the massive spend on a set of rails, its so cool to get on a tram isn't it....(€3-4bn later).

(Also AFAIK Edinburgh also doesn't have a rail link, it didn't when I last visited anyway)

L1011

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I love the obsession with the Metro to the airport.
When people realise after it is built that the bus through the port tunnel is still the quickest (and probably cheapest) way to get into town from the airport (15-20 minutes), I can see the outrage already.
Just like the Swords express will be quicker than the Metro from Swords.
But I suppose people love the massive spend on a set of rails, its so cool to get on a tram isn't it....(€3-4bn later).

(Also AFAIK Edinburgh also doesn't have a rail link)

Capacity, primarily.

Edinburgh spent an absolute packet on getting a tram link

https://edinburghtrams.com/plan-a-journey/edinburgh-airport

alexjp

Probably one of the worst in western Europe.
Smaller cities like Lisbon or Valencia (not a capital) have underground.

A Shropshire Lad

Whats the story with the tolls on the M50 and other Motorways. Does that money go towards paying for the upkeep of the roads. I would have throught that was what motor tax was for ?

L1011

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Whats the story with the tolls on the M50 and other Motorways. Does that money go towards paying for the upkeep of the roads. I would have throught that was what motor tax was for ?

It depends on the specific road. Most were built by the toll operator at a massively reduced cost to the state and they get the toll concession to repay that and cover maintenance for the time period.

killbillvol2

IAmTheReign wrote: »

There's loads. Off the top of my head airports I've flown into that can only be reached by bus (at best) include Liverpool, Edinburgh, Budapest, Basel, Berlin Tegel, both airports in Bangkok and both airports in Istanbul.

Suvarnabhumi has a rail link for about 10 years now.

trellheim

Edinburgh is connected by a very slow tram to the city centre. two stops down the line from the Airport is Edinburgh gateway which is useful for connecting to trains to Aberdeen, and a few more stops down the line is Edinburgh park, useful for trains to Glasgow and indeed quicker rides into Waverley station.

The tram however is very expensive for what you get - 8 quid airport day return and it is no way a quick service

Peregrine

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Whats the story with the tolls on the M50 and other Motorways. Does that money go towards paying for the upkeep of the roads. I would have throught that was what motor tax was for ?

Tax isn't really earmarked for certain things. It all goes into and comes out of the one pot.

Besides, motor tax would only cover a fraction of the cost of road maintainance. It's mostly paid from general taxation which is mostly income tax, VAT, excise and corporation tax. In a way, driving is probably the most subsidised form of transport in Ireland.

Edit: External costs, not maintenance costs. Find more accurate numbers below.

Fritzbox

Peregrine wrote: »

Besides, motor tax would only cover a fraction of the cost of road maintainance. It's mostly paid from general taxation which is mostly income tax, VAT, excise and corporation tax. In a way, driving is probably the most subsidised form of transport in Ireland.

Have you got a source for that? Motorists pay not only road tax, they also pay VRT, as well as a lot of taxes and duties on new cars, spare parts, as well as on fuel, tyres and lub oil. I would have thought the Irish motorist more than covers his or her costs?

odyssey06

Fritzbox wrote: »

Have you got a source for that? Motorists pay not only road tax, they also pay VRT, as well as a lot of taxes and duties on new cars, spare parts, as well as on fuel, tyres and lub oil. I would have thought the Irish motorist more than covers his or her costs?

Plus the VAT on the goods delivered by motor vehicles... and income and profits generated by same.

Pinch Flat

Fritzbox wrote: »

Have you got a source for that? Motorists pay not only road tax, they also pay VRT, as well as a lot of taxes and duties on new cars, spare parts, as well as on fuel, tyres and lub oil. I would have thought the Irish motorist more than covers his or her costs?

No such thing as road tax. Motor tax, excise and VRT go to central government coffers for distribution to local authorities. Roads are also heavily subsidized in terms of capital expenditure - motor tax, VRT and excise / duty alone not enough to fund the road building.

Peregrine

Fritzbox wrote: »

Have you got a source for that? Motorists pay not only road tax, they also pay VRT, as well as a lot of taxes and duties on new cars, spare parts, as well as on fuel, tyres and lub oil. I would have thought the Irish motorist more than covers his or her costs?

Apologies, it was the external costs of motoring (around €3bn and counting). Look up 'The True Costs of Automobility: External Costs of Cars, Overview on existing estimates in EU-27 – Technische Universitat Dresden'.

In terms of motor tax vs road maintainance, it's difficult to get the the cost of road maintenance because 95% of roads are maintained by 31 different councils. National roads and motorways (5% of road network) currently cost around €180m a year to maintain but actually requires €400m or will result in €1bn a year due to deterioration according to NRA/TII. You'd probably have to go through each of the council's budgets to get the total cost but I'd imagine it's close to €2bn at current underfundef levels. Capital funding for road building also costs several hundred million a year. Motor tax intake is just over a billion. VRT is like €900m. Economical cost of congestion is well over a billion and counting. You could keep going.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/repairs-to-irish-roads-could-cost-1bn-a-year-ls073cwpc

Fritzbox

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Roads are also heavily subsidized in terms of capital expenditure - motor tax, VRT and excise / duty alone not enough to fund the road building.

Can you provide a source, link for that assertion? The other guy hasn't.

Fritzbox

Peregrine wrote: »

Apologies, it was the external costs of motoring (around €3bn and counting). Look up 'The True Costs of Automobility: External Costs of Cars, Overview on existing estimates in EU-27 – Technische Universitat Dresden'.

Aah... the 'external costs' - but this is not what we are talking about, is it?

In terms of motor tax vs road maintainance, it's difficult to get the the cost of road maintenance because 95% of roads are maintained by 31 different councils. National roads and motorways (5% of road network) currently cost around €180m a year to maintain but actually requires €400m or will result in €1bn a year due to deterioration according to NRA/TII. You'd probably have to go through each of the council's budgets to get the total cost but I'd imagine it's close to €2bn at current underfundef levels. Capital funding for road building also costs several hundred million a year. Motor tax intake is just over a billion. VRT is like €900m. Economical cost of congestion is well over a billion and counting. You could keep going.

So you still have not got a figure for road maintenance and building in Ireland - it probably isn't 2 billion?

I found this:

The Department of Transport has slashed the budget for maintaining national roads, including for winter storms and ice, just as the first major snowfalls are forecast for the country.

The department this month told Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which is responsible for the national road network, that the 2018 budget will be about 15 per cent lower than this year’s, or €22 million instead of €26 million. The organisation has now written to all councils, informing them of the cut.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-cuts-budget-for-national-road-maintenance-1.3322496

L1011

That is day to day maintenance; not structures or pavement. There's a separate, multi-million figure spent on that annually. And N roads are a tiny subset of the overall network.