Is transportation in the Dublin the worst in any European capital?

A Shropshire Lad

Peregrine wrote: »

Tax isn't really earmarked for certain things. It all goes into and comes out of the one pot.

.

Therein lies the problem. A lot of hands in that pot and very little oversight into how its spent.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

Have you got a source for that? Motorists pay not only road tax, they also pay VRT, as well as a lot of taxes and duties on new cars, spare parts, as well as on fuel, tyres and lub oil. I would have thought the Irish motorist more than covers his or her costs?

Is there any news on when motorists are going to start paying for their share of the 1500+ premature deaths every year due to air quality? Or the vast amounts of public space used for storage of their private properties, particularly suburban roads?

Gringo180

Train stations are 3rd world. Not even a toilet in the likes of Tara Street, absolute kips.

Fritzbox

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any news on when motorists are going to start paying for their share of the 1500+ premature deaths every year due to air quality?

What 1500 premature deaths? People are living longer than ever before.

Or the vast amounts of public space used for storage of their private properties, particularly suburban roads?

What's so special about suburban roads? It is a lot of space occupied, sure - but what's the alternative?

Fritzbox

Gringo180 wrote: »

Train stations are 3rd world. Not even a toilet in the likes of Tara Street, absolute kips.

Most Metro and suburban rail stations here in Germany don't have toilets either, I think it's the same in the UK.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

What 1500 premature deaths? People are living longer than ever before.



What's so special about suburban roads? It is a lot of space occupied, sure - but what's the alternative?

https://www.epa.ie/irelandsenvironment/air/

The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates show that more than 400,000 premature deaths are attributable to poor air quality in Europe annually. In Ireland, the number of premature deaths attributable to air pollution is estimated at 1,510 people and is mainly due to cardiovascular disease.

Fritzbox wrote: »

What's so special about suburban roads? It is a lot of space occupied, sure - but what's the alternative?

What's special is they are covered with parked private cars, parking for free - or public space used for storage of private property.



The alternative would be something like Japan, where you're not allowed buy a car until you can prove you have somewhere to store it, on your property or on a space you pay for, rather than expecting society in general to subsidise your private property with free storage space.

Fritzbox

I don't believe in what the WHO have to say, in this particular instance, about air pollution. How did they manage to come about this figure, what was their methodology?

The alternative would be something like Japan, where you're not allowed buy a car until you can prove you have somewhere to store it, on your property or on a space you pay for, rather than expecting society in general to subsidise your private property with free storage space.

If there is a demand for such a system in Ireland it will certainly come about - otherwise it won't come about - and one just has to accept that.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

I don't believe in what the WHO have to say, in this particular instance, about air pollution. How did they manage to come about this figure, what was their methodology?

Interesting to see that you've decided that you don't believe them BEFORE looking at how they came up with the figure. There's not really much point in you looking at the methodology and other details so. https://www.who.int/airpollution/data/cities/en/
But not to worry, sure what would full-time expert PhD level researchers know that the average boards poster doesn't?

Fritzbox wrote: »

t - otherwise it won't come about - and one just has to accept that.

You suggested that Irish motorists more than cover their costs. Did you take the cost of all this storage space into account in your calculation?

Fritzbox

I often believe what Phd scientists have to say, it's the WHO I sometimes have a problem with.

You suggested that Irish motorists more than cover their costs. Did you take the cost of all this storage space into account in your calculation?

Outside the main cities and towns of Ireland there are no costs to be covered - parking your car by the side of the road is for free usually - and that's the way people like it. Elsewhere in Ireland, in the urban areas, parking your car can be very expensive.

AndrewJRenko

Fritzbox wrote: »

I often believe what Phd scientists have to say, it's the WHO I sometimes have a problem with.

What particular aspects of their methodology for this research do you disagree with?

Fritzbox wrote: »

Outside the main cities and towns of Ireland there are no costs to be covered - parking your car by the side of the road is for free usually - and that's the way people like it.

So that's a no then - you decided that motorists 'cover their costs' without looking at storage costs.

The fact that there are no parking fees does not mean there is no cost to society. This is public space, generally road space that should be available for road traffic, not for storage of private property. The requirement for parking means that roads have to be wider - another huge cost on society to subsidise private car ownership, whether suburban or rural.

Marcusm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They probably do, because of the USSR.

Sofia was the only one of those connected with USSR.

Pinch Flat

Fritzbox wrote: »

Can you provide a source, link for that assertion? The other guy hasn't.

Sure, here you go. It makes lots of reference to the Local Government Fund (you might want to pop that into google) - the gist is that it is funding accumulated in central exchequer and allocated for roads from there.

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Report/Publications/2014/2014%20Annual%20Report,%20Chapter-5-Central-Government-Funding-of-Local-Authorities.pdf

Most of the new motorway projects are PPP - funded jointly by the government and a funder, usually with the assistance of large multi-national contracting entity from outside the state. These projects run to tens of billions, so definitely not funded by "road tax". Don't go searching for "road tax" as a source of funding for roads. You'll hurt your head.

wakka12

Fritzbox wrote: »

I often believe what Phd scientists have to say, it's the WHO I sometimes have a problem with.



Outside the main cities and towns of Ireland there are no costs to be covered - parking your car by the side of the road is for free usually - and that's the way people like it. Elsewhere in Ireland, in the urban areas, parking your car can be very expensive.

Its the way car users like it, just car users. Id prefer if you stored it out of sight and the road space could be used for public transport, cycle lanes,extra trees and other features that would benefit the wider community and not just you.

Peregrine

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Sure, here you go. It makes lots of reference to the Local Government Fund (you might want to pop that into google) - the gist is that it is funding accumulated in central exchequer and allocated for roads from there.

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Report/Publications/2014/2014%20Annual%20Report,%20Chapter-5-Central-Government-Funding-of-Local-Authorities.pdf

There's more, I'm afraid. That's about the €2.4bn in central government funds but it also says total expenditure was €6.3bn which corresponds to the Parliamentary Budget Office figure.

The whole thing is a mess. I might go through it fully when I get the chance.

Fritzbox wrote: »

Aah... the 'external costs' - but this is not what we are talking about, is it?




So you still have not got a figure for road maintenance and building in Ireland - it probably isn't 2 billion?

I found this:



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-cuts-budget-for-national-road-maintenance-1.3322496

Wow, rude.

You think road maintainence cost is €22m a year? This was dealt with in the article I linked to.

Chinasea

Fritzbox wrote: »

Most Metro and suburban rail stations here in Germany don't have toilets either, I think it's the same in the UK.

they are a he'll of a lot cleaner. Properly cleaned and regularly maintained. Our DART stations are filthy.

A Shropshire Lad

The DART trains and stations would be more at home in a third world country than a modern western nation.

14dMoney

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

The DART trains and stations would be more at home in a third world country than a modern western nation.

DART stations/injection centers

Tombo2001

This thread is asking the wrong question. The right question is how do we improve transportation in Dublin. But people are more interested in the Blame Game than doing anything about.

For example - there is talk of a new Bus Corridor near where I live. Whether its a good thing or bad thing overall I dont know. But I do know that its a proposed IMPROVEMENT in public transport, and I assume it would improve public transport.

Lots of people are against it - and these people have got out and protested, put signs up, made their presence felt on the street.

Lots of people are for it - assuming they are in favour of improved public transport, then they should be in favour of this - and these people have done nothing to support it publicly.

Dublin is a city of 2 million, and one of the fastest growing cities in Europe.

30 years ago, it was a city of one milion. it was stagnant. It was depressed. There was no money for public transport.

There is a major infrastructure deficit because for the first 70 years of the state; there was no money of transport infrastructure and no demand for it.

This is not Leo Varadkars fault.

Compare the tube system in London in 1980; to the public transport system in Dublin in 1980.

Ask a different question? What European capital has seen the most transport investment in the past 30 years?

Has there been any European city that has seen more investment than Dublin, adjusted for city size?

New Airport terminal, several new rail lines, new Motorways?

It seems people are a lot more interested in Blaming and whingeing that actuall trying to understand the problem or doing anything about it.

Interested Observer

Gringo180 wrote: »

Train stations are 3rd world. Not even a toilet in the likes of Tara Street, absolute kips.

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

The DART trains and stations would be more at home in a third world country than a modern western nation.

What third world countries have you two geniuses spent time in before, out of interest?

A Shropshire Lad

Interested Observer wrote: »

What third world countries have you two geniuses spent time in before, out of interest?

I have personally been in Cambodia and Laos


I dont know why you think I am a genius , but I thank you for it !

Chinasea

I took the time to write several emails to the MD of Iarnroid Eireann, regarding how badly the DART stations are cleaned, maintained and monitored.

I had to send several emails to even get a generic response and there was absolutely no point as NOTHING was done.

Somebody is getting paid big bucks with a fancy title to manage the DART stations which they clearly don't and seem to have no interest in.

I commute daily. I see countless people bunking through the turnstiles, and NEVER stopped. The glass viewing panels in Dun Laoghaire DART station, as an example have never, ever been cleaned. Mankey, filthy, grimness.

killbillvol2

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I have personally been in Cambodia and Laos


I dont know why you think I am a genius , but I thank you for it !

I'd love to know which railway stations you visited in Laos?

A Shropshire Lad

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I'd love to know which railway stations you visited in Laos?

Vientiane,Thanaleng amongst others

Interested Observer

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I have personally been in Cambodia and Laos


I dont know why you think I am a genius , but I thank you for it !

Ok good. I've been there too. If you went any way off the tourist track you'd have seen the grinding poverty people in those countries live in. Comparing anything in Ireland to anything "third world" is idiotic.

killbillvol2

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Vientiane,Thanaleng amongst others

Really? Which others?

cdeb

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ok good. I've been there too. If you went any way off the tourist track you'd have seen the grinding poverty people in those countries live in. Comparing anything in Ireland to anything "third world" is idiotic.

"Idiotic" is absolutely the right word.

What we have in Dublin is fine. The problem is we don't have enough of it.

A Shropshire Lad

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Really? Which others?

This is gettting weird. You want me to name all the train stations I was at when I was in Laos. I have already named two.

A Shropshire Lad

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ok good. I've been there too. If you went any way off the tourist track you'd have seen the grinding poverty people in those countries live in. Comparing anything in Ireland to anything "third world" is idiotic.

I was there with UNICEF so I was indeed well off the tourist track. The analogy was that the DART stations in Dublin are well behind those one would expect in a modern western nation, I dont think thats idiotic. You shouldnt take everything literally, it might make your life slightly less difficult !

killbillvol2

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

This is gettting weird. You want me to name all the train stations I was at when I was in Laos. I have already named two.

Well you see, the two you named are actually the same station. And there are no other stations in Laos.

Last Stop

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This thread is asking the wrong question. The right question is how do we improve transportation in Dublin. But people are more interested in the Blame Game than doing anything about.

For example - there is talk of a new Bus Corridor near where I live. Whether its a good thing or bad thing overall I dont know. But I do know that its a proposed IMPROVEMENT in public transport, and I assume it would improve public transport.

Lots of people are against it - and these people have got out and protested, put signs up, made their presence felt on the street.

Lots of people are for it - assuming they are in favour of improved public transport, then they should be in favour of this - and these people have done nothing to support it publicly.

Dublin is a city of 2 million, and one of the fastest growing cities in Europe.

30 years ago, it was a city of one milion. it was stagnant. It was depressed. There was no money for public transport.

There is a major infrastructure deficit because for the first 70 years of the state; there was no money of transport infrastructure and no demand for it.

This is not Leo Varadkars fault.

Compare the tube system in London in 1980; to the public transport system in Dublin in 1980.

Ask a different question? What European capital has seen the most transport investment in the past 30 years?

Has there been any European city that has seen more investment than Dublin, adjusted for city size?

New Airport terminal, several new rail lines, new Motorways?

It seems people are a lot more interested in Blaming and whingeing that actuall trying to understand the problem or doing anything about it.

The majority of what you are saying is bang on the money.
However, some of the points you have raised lead to some interesting arguments.
Dublin has doubled in population over the past 30 years yet our infrastructure has almost certainly not kept pace with that growth.
While no one is expecting Dublin to have a tube style multi-line metro, investment in public transport is lagging well behind where it should be. Projects such as the Maynooth line electrification and Lucan Luas should have been completed decades ago and yet are at least another decade away. These projects are not the most expensive (for reference, the electrification of the entire Dublin-Cork line would cost approx. €250m).
The reality is there is a reluctance with the current government to invest in capital projects. Additionally, a complete shutdown on project design during the recession and for several years since means that there is a significant lag in the delivery of infrastructure projects. Keeping the design element going would have been quite cheap and kept people in a depleted engineering sector employed.

I don’t agree that Dublin has seen more investment than any other city, it was simply playing much needed catch-up. The reality is the public transport network in Dublin consists of 2 tram lines, 1 high frequency commuter rail line and a dysfunctional bus service. For a city of 2 million that is extremely poor.

I’m almost sick of saying it now but Dublin has the potential to become one of the best cities on the world for public transport if the right investment is made. I’m an ideal world, Dublin would build:
Dart Underground (including the Dart expansion
Metrolink (all the way to Bray)
Lucan Luas
Clongriffin Luas
Knocklyon Luas
UCD Luas
Finglas Luas
Metro West extended to Bray.

This would see all the Luas lines joined in the city centre (similar to the Chicago loop) with excellent interchange opportunities with other modes.

Alas I can’t see that happening anytime soon