Is transportation in the Dublin the worst in any European capital?

Tombo2001

Last Stop wrote: »

The majority of what you are saying is bang on the money.
However, some of the points you have raised lead to some interesting arguments.
Dublin has doubled in population over the past 30 years yet our infrastructure has almost certainly not kept pace with that growth.
While no one is expecting Dublin to have a tube style multi-line metro, investment in public transport is lagging well behind where it should be. Projects such as the Maynooth line electrification and Lucan Luas should have been completed decades ago and yet are at least another decade away. These projects are not the most expensive (for reference, the electrification of the entire Dublin-Cork line would cost approx. €250m).
The reality is there is a reluctance with the current government to invest in capital projects. Additionally, a complete shutdown on project design during the recession and for several years since means that there is a significant lag in the delivery of infrastructure projects. Keeping the design element going would have been quite cheap and kept people in a depleted engineering sector employed.

I don’t agree that Dublin has seen more investment than any other city, it was simply playing much needed catch-up. The reality is the public transport network in Dublin consists of 2 tram lines, 1 high frequency commuter rail line and a dysfunctional bus service. For a city of 2 million that is extremely poor.

I’m almost sick of saying it now but Dublin has the potential to become one of the best cities on the world for public transport if the right investment is made. I’m an ideal world, Dublin would build:
Dart Underground (including the Dart expansion
Metrolink (all the way to Bray)
Lucan Luas
Clongriffin Luas
Knocklyon Luas
UCD Luas
Finglas Luas
Metro West extended to Bray.

This would see all the Luas lines joined in the city centre (similar to the Chicago loop) with excellent interchange opportunities with other modes.

Alas I can’t see that happening anytime soon

I cant disagree with what you are saying.

I would point out say re Chicago that (I) the Loop was built 120 years ago and (ii) large parts of the city are only served by bus, and a bus service that I would feel is no better than our own.

Re Luas to Finglas - I still think its a shocker that they Cabra Luas didn't extend two more stops out to Finglas.

However the wider point I would make is - I don't see these coming up as election issues - ergo, the 'people' are not making this as a priority for government.

Compared to say those bloody water charges that had every Tom Dick and Harry up in arms. Or equivalently, the Bin Charges a few years back.

Last Stop

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I cant disagree with what you are saying.

I would point out say re Chicago that (I) the Loop was built 120 years ago and (ii) large parts of the city are only served by bus, and a bus service that I would feel is no better than our own.

Re Luas to Finglas - I still think its a shocker that they Cabra Luas didn't extend two more stops out to Finglas.

However the wider point I would make is - I don't see these coming up as election issues - ergo, the 'people' are not making this as a priority for government.

Compared to say those bloody water charges that had every Tom Dick and Harry up in arms. Or equivalently, the Bin Charges a few years back.

Yes the Chicago loop is quite old now but it is still a great example of an integrated public transport system. Dublin is a lot smaller than Chicago and with the lines I have mentioned the majority of the city would be within easy reach of a line with local buses filling in any gaps.

I think your point regarding the Finglas Luas is linked to your final point. LCC was the cheapest public transport investment that the government could have made at the time. They chose this over Dart (expansion and underground) and metro north. Therefore adding extra to this would have pushed the costs up and put the government off. There is also the perceived Dublin vs the rest balance that politicians have to deal with.

I’m on the fence about your last point. I think that Busconnects and the Green line upgrade definitely came up on the doorsteps of the local elections (for all the wrong reasons). I also believe that particularly in Dublin and to a lesser extent Crok/Limerick there is a gap for a party to build an election around providing public transport investment. Unfortunately such a strategy would require bravery and imagination to deviate away from token welfare/dole increases and tax cuts. One can dream eh...

cdeb

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Well you see, the two you named are actually the same station. And there are no other stations in Laos.

I think it's worth highlighting that the poster concerned hasn't come back to this despite being online since and posting in another thread.

To be sure, I checked it on wiki and it's true; here Thanaleng is noted as "Laos' only railway station"

I'm sure the "I worked for UNICEF" stuff is equally bull****.

If I could thank that post more than once, I would! Fantastic stuff.

killbillvol2

cdeb wrote: »

I think it's worth highlighting that the poster concerned hasn't come back to this despite being online since and posting in another thread.

To be sure, I checked it on wiki and it's true; here Thanaleng is noted as "Laos' only railway station"

I'm sure the "I worked for UNICEF" stuff is equally bull****.

If I could thank that post more than once, I would! Fantastic stuff.

Oh he's a total bull****ter. Laos has about 3 km of railway line which Thai Railways built, essentially to cross the border. The Chinese are working on a huge project to connect Thailand and China, at Kunming, via Laos but it's behind schedule, running into political issues and definitely doesn't have any stations our friend could visit, even with UNICEF.

There's fcuk all railway in Cambodia either - they only reopened one line in the last couple of years.

I'm posting from Vientiane by the way...

cdeb

Yeah, been to the two myself on a rail trip around the world and had to get bus/boat through them as there was no rail. (Is that Cambodia line an old colonial freight line?) Things have changed a little bit since I was there obviously (7 years ago), but it's the neatness of knowing the slightly absurd fact that there's only one railway station in the entire country that was so good about it!

Monaco and Lesotho have one railway station each too, wiki tells me. Though maybe that's better suited to the "I bet you didn't know that" thread

killbillvol2

cdeb wrote: »

Yeah, been to the two myself on a rail trip around the world and had to get bus/boat through them as there was no rail. Things have changed since I was there obviously (7 years ago), but it's the neatness of knowing that there's only one railway station in the entire country that was so good about it!

Monaco and Lesotho have one railway station each too, wiki tells me. Though maybe that's better suited to the "I bet you didn't know that" thread

You've just added Lesotho to my bucket list. Presumably a ****hole station a bit third world like Howth Junction!

L1011

The Vatican has some railway track but no public stations at all I believe. Freight and the potential for private trains for Franny. May be wrong, can't be bothered checking...

Marcusm

Last Stop wrote: »

The majority of what you are saying is bang on the money.
However, some of the points you have raised lead to some interesting arguments.
Dublin has doubled in population over the past 30 years yet our infrastructure has almost certainly not kept pace with that growth.
While no one is expecting Dublin to have a tube style multi-line metro, investment in public transport is lagging well behind where it should be. Projects such as the Maynooth line electrification and Lucan Luas should have been completed decades ago and yet are at least another decade away. These projects are not the most expensive (for reference, the electrification of the entire Dublin-Cork line would cost approx. €250m).
The reality is there is a reluctance with the current government to invest in capital projects. Additionally, a complete shutdown on project design during the recession and for several years since means that there is a significant lag in the delivery of infrastructure projects. Keeping the design element going would have been quite cheap and kept people in a depleted engineering sector employed.

I don’t agree that Dublin has seen more investment than any other city, it was simply playing much needed catch-up. The reality is the public transport network in Dublin consists of 2 tram lines, 1 high frequency commuter rail line and a dysfunctional bus service. For a city of 2 million that is extremely poor.

I’m almost sick of saying it now but Dublin has the potential to become one of the best cities on the world for public transport if the right investment is made. I’m an ideal world, Dublin would build:
Dart Underground (including the Dart expansion
Metrolink (all the way to Bray)
Lucan Luas
Clongriffin Luas
Knocklyon Luas
UCD Luas
Finglas Luas
Metro West extended to Bray.

This would see all the Luas lines joined in the city centre (similar to the Chicago loop) with excellent interchange opportunities with other modes.

Alas I can’t see that happening anytime soon

I would be shocked if the electrification of Dublin-Cork cost as little as €250m or is this just the project cost and not the inevitable distuption as well as the additional investment in rolling stock. I doubt Cor-Dublin would ever deliver a cost/benefit analysis given the relative infrequency of the service.

Last Stop

Marcusm wrote: »

I would be shocked if the electrification of Dublin-Cork cost as little as €250m or is this just the project cost and not the inevitable distuption as well as the additional investment in rolling stock. I doubt Cor-Dublin would ever deliver a cost/benefit analysis given the relative infrequency of the service.

That is the project cost according to Irish Rail. This assumes that any rolling stock would have to be purchased anyway as the current stock would be at the end of service. However the point was that the Maynooth line electrification even with new rolling stock is a cheap job and clearly there are very few politicians out that direction with any real credentials as if there were, it would have been built years ago!

Geuze

To think DB still uses "stages" for pricing fares, God Help Us.

L1011

50/50 they'll be gone in December. Dare determination should be out in October or so and it'll let us know

They've repeatedly flattened out of the fare structure over the past few years

griffdaddy

I don't know any European capitals where the car is such a prevalent form of transport anyway. The fact that you can drive straight into the cbd any day of the week and park up on the street about 10 metres away from Grafton Street is ridiculous. I also don't get why the car parks have such a strong lobbying voice in the debate around pedestrianisation - they're car park owners ffs.

Pinch Flat

griffdaddy wrote: »

I don't know any European capitals where the car is such a prevalent form of transport anyway. The fact that you can drive straight into the cbd any day of the week and park up on the street about 10 metres away from Grafton Street is ridiculous. I also don't get why the car parks have such a strong lobbying voice in the debate around pedestrianisation - they're car park owners ffs.

We’ve a weird relationship with the private car. It’s hampering so much progress in the city. A lot of people don’t seem to see this and there’s a huge element that drive from their driveways to the front doors of their office, even when other means of transport exist.

I’m not sure if any other European city has such a strong car lobby - the private car park operators have hampered many of initiatives, including the Liffey cycling route. I’m sure bus connect will have the same car-centric lobby groups that will stymie it’s implementation.

Hard to know where Dublin will go, bit it’s going to take something radical, expensive and with real intent to sort it out. At the moment it’s just been planned election to election with a fragmented amount of vested interests interfering.

Interested Observer

Paris, Rome are absolutely choked with traffic, you should try it in rush hour. Despite their metro system. London have their congestion charge which dissuades people.

JupiterKid

The fact that the Dublin Maynooth rail line has not yet been electrified as the 2020s are almost upon us - a line which runs right through Dublin 15 which itself has seen explosive population growth and development over the past 40 and especially 15 years, and has none other that Leo Varadkar, our Taoiseach, as a sitting TD - is nothing short of a complete scandal.

Dublin has appallingly poor public transport for a city of its size and supposed world ranking.

L1011

The Maynooth line has seen a dramatic increase in off-peak and weekend (particularly evening) services in the last few years; but tying the electrification to DART Underground when it was meant to be a separate project meant it died with DARTU. Its now back as a separate project and should go to tender "soon" for a poor definition of soon...


Having the Maynooth and Hazelhatch electrification projects done before going back for DARTU Mk II will hugely reduce the project cost and the induced horrors. The Maynooth one is going to close all level crossings (to allow for DARTU era automation) and the Hazelhatch one going to patch the narrow gap and add the Kylemore station. Kylemore Road area is a future gentrification zone as it'll probably have quick DARTs ever 7mins to Grand Canal and every 7mins to Heuston all day every day.

DARTU is still utterly needed as there is no other way to get further cross-Liffey capacity.

jd

Geuze wrote: »

To think DB still uses "stages" for pricing fares, God Help Us.

It's the NTA that sets the fare structure and they want to move to a flat fare with free transfers. However just wait for some of the politicians to start moaning about "hard cases". Eg Why should Mary who is travelling from Whitehall to Drumcondra pay the same as Tom who will travel from Swords to Cabinteely?

Das Reich

Snotty wrote: »

Name a capital city with worse transportation?

Rome.

Last Stop

L1011 wrote: »

The Maynooth line has seen a dramatic increase in off-peak and weekend (particularly evening) services in the last few years; but tying the electrification to DART Underground when it was meant to be a separate project meant it died with DARTU. Its now back as a separate project and should go to tender "soon" for a poor definition of soon...


Having the Maynooth and Hazelhatch electrification projects done before going back for DARTU Mk II will hugely reduce the project cost and the induced horrors. The Maynooth one is going to close all level crossings (to allow for DARTU era automation) and the Hazelhatch one going to patch the narrow gap and add the Kylemore station. Kylemore Road area is a future gentrification zone as it'll probably have quick DARTs ever 7mins to Grand Canal and every 7mins to Heuston all day every day.

DARTU is still utterly needed as there is no other way to get further cross-Liffey capacity.

The Maynooth line should have been upgraded long before Dart underground was on the cards. The original DART line opened in 1984 and yet 35 years later hasn’t expanded pasts it’s original line despite as was mentioned earlier the population of the city doubling in that same timeframe. Greystones msmaged to get a dart service despite it only having 1 track for Christ sake.

BTW, the is no way DartU will be automated for a number of reasons
1) it would require complete segregation of the line
2) it would require automation of intercity services
3) they won’t be able to close the level crossings on the south side (dart plans Maynooth-Greystones)

DARTs will initially run every 10 minutes and will eventually run every 5 minutes so not sure where you’re getting 7minutes from?

strandroad

Das Reich wrote: »

Rome.

Has extensive underground and overground rail, several tram routes (not a practical mode there because of Rome's hills) and a network of fast moving buses. It all looks manky though, I'll give you that, dirty torn and graffittied.

A Shropshire Lad

I think in most other EU countries the public have an expectation of the standards their public services should meet, whether thats transport, health, local government etc. I dont think the public here demand those standards, either in our services or our public servants. Therefore it follows we will always have substandard services compared to most other EU nations.

A Shropshire Lad

Someone correct me if im wrong, but I believe that Tallinn, the capital of Estonia, has free public transport ?

cdeb

For residents, yes.

Did you pick that up on your UNICEF missions too?

A Shropshire Lad

cdeb wrote: »

Did you pick that up on your UNICEF missions too?

It was 12 years ago when I was involved with them. I dont know for sure if they have a mission in Estonia, I doubt it though

cdeb

You're a ballsy bull****ter, I'll give you that

PhilOssophy

Low population density = unviable public transport = crap public transport.

The Nal

Das Reich wrote: »

Rome.

Huh? Trolling I assume. The underground is great and goes all the way to the foot of the mountains! Buses and trams that also link up.

You can get from the Colleseum to Anagnina and then be drinking wine up in the Frascati hills in 35 minutes in Rome on public transport. Underground and bus.

To answer the OP, Dublin has the worst public transport by far in any European capital. By a fúcking mile. Its embarrassing.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Low population density = unviable public transport = crap public transport.

Why unviable?

wakka12

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Low population density = unviable public transport = crap public transport.

Dublins density is normal or even above average. Its the 27th most densely populated city in europe and more densely populated than Prague, Berlin , Vienna, Rome, Manchester, Glasgow,Munich, Nice and Hamburg. That might come as a surprise but Id say it is because of how narrow dublins roads are making it more densely packed, its quite an important factor, for example the landmass of most american cities consists of 50% roadspace due to how wide their city roads are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Dublin can and should densify further with more high rise buildings though of course, density is almost always a good thing until you get to crazy levels like in Hong Kong. But yeh Dublins density is no excuse for how bad its public transport is and its also nowhere near as low as most people make it out to be

The Nal

wakka12 wrote: »

Dublins density is normal or even above average. Its the 27th most densely populated city in europe and more densely populated than Prague, Berlin , Vienna, Rome, Manchester, Glasgow,Munich, Nice and Hamburg. That might come as a surprise but Id say it is because of how narrow dublins roads are making it more densely packed, its quite an important factor, for example the landmass of most american cities consists of 50% roadspace due to how wide their city roads are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Dublin can and should densify further with more high rise buildings though of course, density is almost always a good thing until you get to crazy levels like in Hong Kong. But yeh Dublins density is no excuse for how bad its public transport is

People tend to get the cart before the horse. Assuming we need density before we can provide transport links when really effective public transport will lead the build up like we're seeing on the LUAS lines.

Build it and they will come.

cgcsb

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Low population density = unviable public transport = crap public transport.

Dublin is densely populated