Filling in Dublin Bay and rebuilding Ballymun there.

There is a proposal emerging to fill in much of the tidal flats of Dublin Bay and building cheap dense housing there. I don’t live near the coast, but I imagine people living nearby might have strong views about their posh villas all of a sudden not being beside the seaside, and that right next door instead would be a new version of old Ballymun.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/reclaim-sandymount-strand-for-apartments-says-architect-1.3977865

odyssey06

Cant see that happening. Still large scale but more doable - do what other cities have done... move the port away from the city and use that land.

Victor

It's a beach. It is at distinct risk of flooding.

With climate change, even the port lands are at risk of flooding - while the quaysides might be above high tide, the lands behind aren't necessarily. Any weak point and it all floods.

Even large areas of Dublin 4 are at risk of coastal and riverine flooding.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

It's a beach. It is at distinct risk of flooding.

With climate change, even the port lands are at risk of flooding - while the quaysides might be above high tide, the lands behind aren't necessarily. Any weak point and it all floods.

Even large areas of Dublin 4 are at risk of coastal and riverine flooding.

I presume the developers would account for that and build up the new terrain to whatever height is deemed safe from flooding potential; 30 feet or whatever it takes. As they’d be building new land from scratch this should be the type of thing they could well take care of.

I’d presume they would build a new beach lido area and metro system whilst they would be at it. Imagine a new raised yellowpack suburb called “The Strand” looking down on Sandymount.

odyssey06

100 years ago they did infill parts of Fairview but that became Fairview Park, gym and residential.

Recently East Point business park was reclaimed.

What was the last infill to residential land I wonder?

mikemac2

Cheap dense housing does not have to equal Ballymun and that isn't even in the article

Both your posts strive to include an unneccesary dig at Dublin 4

wakka12

I dont know much about the costs of land reclamation but surely its more feasible to relocate the port at that stage and extend the city to there. I hope if they do reclaim the land they follow abercrombies original plans. Would probably make for a way nicer urban area than whatever crap modern urban planners and architects could design. I can just imagine how **** the poolbeg site will look, all glass everything, no high quality public space or any architecture of any merit, like most of the docklands

mikemac2

mikemac2 wrote: »

Cheap dense housing does not have to equal Ballymun and that isn't even in the article

Both your posts strive to include an unneccesary dig at Dublin 4

I have a dig at everything, very much including myself
I use the term Ballymun for the irony that they tore down what was essentially good housing, or could have been, and they keep telling us we need high rise. I myself live in a posh (if you like)area of Dublin 6, and my dream would be to live anywhere by the sea. I’m particularly imagining my own reaction if I bought s nice little apartment in eg, Merrion, only to have something resembling old Ballymun reconstructed right in front of me, blocking my lovely sea view!

wakka12

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont know much about the costs of land reclamation but surely its more feasible to relocate the port at that stage and extend the city to there. I hope if they do reclaim the land they follow abercrombies original plans. Would probably make for a way nicer urban area than whatever crap modern urban planners and architects could design. I can just imagine how **** the poolbeg site will look, all glass everything, no high quality public space or any architecture of any merit, like most of the docklands

The port isn’t that huge, but it could perhaps do with relocating. To where? Somewhere in Fingal, like Donabate, or around the mouth of the Boyne at Drogheda which would perhaps be more feasible. Easy access to M1 for trucks and cars.

Portsalon

Deleted User wrote: »

The port isn’t that huge, but it could perhaps do with relocating. To where? Somewhere in Fingal, like Donabate, or around the mouth of the Boyne at Drogheda which would perhaps be more feasible. Easy access to M1 for trucks and cars.

Not much deep water off the shores of Donabate/Portrane or Rush.

I can recall relocating to Balbriggan being mentioned about 20 years ago, although that proposal seemed to die a death quite rapidly.

Chinasea

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a dig at everything, very much including myself
I use the term Ballymun for the irony that they tore down what was essentially good housing, or could have been, and they keep telling us we need high rise. I myself live in a posh (if you like)area of Dublin 6, and my dream would be to live anywhere by the sea. I’m particularly imagining my own reaction if I bought s nice little apartment in eg, Merrion, only to have something resembling old Ballymun reconstructed right in front of me, blocking my lovely sea view!

The problem with Ballymun is that there was NO tenancy agreement enforcement.

Absolutely nothing wrong with high--rise. It just needs to be managed, monitored and any breech of tenancy agreement shown the red card.

Tons of working people would be delighted and greatful to live in such high rise.

Achasanai

Why would they be building high in the reclaimed areas if they're not doing so with the land they have?


As others have said, I can't see this happening. There would be uproar in certain areas, and the local TDs would stop it from happening. I would imagine building on a river estuary isn't the best idea either. You can always make 'plans' against flooding, but as for whether they'll work in the real world, that's the question.


Move the port and East Point Business Park (along with Dublin Industrial Estate) to wherever there's a suitable area along the east coast, and build high there. Should be enough land for green spaces so it's not a complete shítshow. Added benefits would be that these three areas could be easily served by rail transport.

whiskeyman

It must be silly season with news with this story.
There's already huge areas of vacant land around the city - this is the real story that's getting very little space.
What about the old Glass Bottling land in Ringsend? That's been vacant for ages and I thought work should have been well underway by now.

CrankyHaus

whiskeyman wrote: »

It must be silly season with news with this story.
There's already huge areas of vacant land around the city - this is the real story that's getting very little space.
What about the old Glass Bottling land in Ringsend? That's been vacant for ages and I thought work should have been well underway by now.

Exactly. It's just a grandiose proposal for more business for architects, that happens to be slightly zeitgeisty.

I actually heard it first on Mary Wilson this evening, and the deal about this proposition was that it would be state owned land from the outset, so no complicated issues about ownership. Of course I do not believe for a moment it will ever actually happen. I’m quite sure politicians could come up with a more practical solution... if they wanted to.

Marcusm

Perhaps they should first build on Bull Island!

wakka12

There is absolutely zero chance of it ever happening. The volume of protest from nimbys about the most modest of developments around posher areas in Dublin is staggering, and many of the wealthiest people in Dublin live along the east coast from clontarf to Blackrock . Most settled family types in Dublin seem dead set against anything changing in their area, for better or for worse, theyre simply against change of any kind.

ZERO chance!

Thats beside the fact that its just a ridiculous proposal. Apart from the massive land banks that could be purchased from Dublin port if we were ever that desperate, theres still numerous brownfield sites all around Dublin of varying sizes, even within the city centre

Dravokivich

Marcusm wrote: »

Perhaps they should first build on Bull Island!

Isnt it a bird sanctuary?

MrMusician18

wakka12 wrote: »

There is absolutely zero chance of it ever happening. The volume of protest from nimbys about the most modest of developments around posher areas in Dublin is staggering, and many of the wealthiest people in Dublin live along the east coast from clontarf to Blackrock . Most settled family types in Dublin seem dead set against anything changing in their area, for better or for worse, theyre simply against change of any kind.

ZERO chance!

Thats beside the fact that its just a ridiculous proposal. Apart from the massive land banks that could be purchased from Dublin port if we were ever that desperate, theres still numerous brownfield sites all around Dublin of varying sizes, even within the city centre

Yeah, this is just pie in the sky stuff for headlines during silly season.

Aside from nimbys, there's the habitats that a development like this would displace. Additionally, there's plenty of vacant land in the city.

wakka12

Marcusm wrote: »

Perhaps they should first build on Bull Island!

I would imagine its not any easier to build on Bull island than the other flats that are being discussed. Its just a large sand bank that has risen up more than the areas to the south of it, itd need the same level of infrastructural investment as those areas in order to make it viable to construct large buildings on safely. Anyway there was a proposal years ago to build a theme park on bull island but was rejected because they wanted to conserve the natural habitat which I imagine is now protected.

Victor

Oh, and much of Dublin Bay is protected, north and south.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/53.3430/-6.1781

Glass fused light

Deleted User wrote: »

The port isn’t that huge, but it could perhaps do with relocating. To where? Somewhere in Fingal, like Donabate, or around the mouth of the Boyne at Drogheda which would perhaps be more feasible. Easy access to M1 for trucks and cars.

The port needs deep water that's why they dredge the bay. [and from memory relocated (dump) the material at the back of Bull Island]
The proposal has been made to move the port
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-deepwater-port-may-be-moved-north-to-avoid-tombs-1.625852?mode=amp

The port is a huge financial committment as its infrastructure and automation would have to be replicated on the new site

The ballymun flat complex failed for a number of reasons.
But like any working class or even middle class estate the impact of children going through the teen years can be troublesome and this is reflected in the community spirit of the area.

Looking at proper sound proofing in buildings design and infill in of brown field sites and mix of unit sizes could be an idea.

Victor

Glass fused light wrote: »

The port needs deep water that's why they dredge the bay. [and from memory relocated (dump) the material at the back of Bull Island]

To my knowledge, Bull Island is essentially formed from material churned up from the scouring effect of the tide on the river channel (especially at the harbour mouth) and any drifting sands in the Irish Sea.

Any material from dredging has been used to reclaim land in the port or is dumped at sea.

Glass fused light

Victor wrote: »

To my knowledge, Bull Island is essentially formed from material churned up from the scouring effect of the tide on the river channel (especially at the harbour mouth) and any drifting sands in the Irish Sea.

Any material from dredging has been used to reclaim land in the port or is dumped at sea.

You are most likely correct, I was listening on the radio a few months back to someone from Dublin Port saying how the Island has grown and about the channel so I may have conflated/mixed the two parts of the interview.

CrankyHaus

Is moving the port really any more of a viable idea?

The nearest natural harbours that match Dublin, by providing both deep navigable water and shelter, seem to be Belfast and Waterford. The previously proposed location near Balbriggan is devoid of shelter, at least to the East and North, which would have to be replicated artificially at enormous cost. Drogheda has a narrow channel right up to the sea that could not be broadened without considerable work, which would probably have to be repeated due to silting. Artificially replicating a natural harbour seems wasteful, time consuming, environmentally ruinous and difficult. Comparisons to other cities that moved their ports ignores the alternatives they had available.

Dublin Port Company itself seems to have rejected the concept and instead has utilised the port tunnel to relocate certain port activities to a remote but easily accessible location, Dublin Inland Port. IME it's the more realistic and sensible move.

tricky D

Glass fused light wrote: »

The port needs deep water that's why they dredge the bay. [and from memory relocated (dump) the material at the back of Bull Island]

The dredged material is dumped beyond the Kish. The Bull Island grew with no dumping, just natural accumulation due to the construction of the unnatural North Wall.

L1011

The move-the-port idea was vomited up by the PDs when they had run out of other ideas and while the port tunnel was well underway. It was never a runner.

The 1970s London style move out of the city centre had already happened - look at where the Custom House is for instance and then read up on where it's predecessor was!

neris

When a 13 year old piss take gets resurrected. Maybe we finally get a giraffe park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaSLNBOphpE

Marcusm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Isnt it a bird sanctuary?

2 golf courses, public beaches and a bird sanctuary. As far as I know, Bull island was created as a result of the north harbour wall (overseen by Captain Bligh of the Bounty) being constructed. It is in essence a sandbar. I would see any construction on the southside as being similar. There must remain a question as to whether so many golf courses within the city boundaries are a good use of land. While a CPO would be expensive, it might be cheaper than extendingboutwards.