Cooperation with property viewing

CiboC

Our landlord wants to sell, we have been in discussion with them for some time and have made what we consider to be 2 reasonable offers to buy the property.

They have declined our most recent offer and have decided to put the house on the market.

They have said there are a number of parties who wish to view, and hope that we will cooperate with that.

Now here is the thing - Our lease does not mention anything about this eventuality, and so does not specify any obligation to cooperate.

We have lived there for over 8 years and have not yet received any notice to quit.

I really feel that I should be able to tell them that if they don't want to accept our offer that's their choice, but they can wait until I'm gone before I'll allow anyone to view my home. I have all my personal possessions there (the property was unfurnished when we moved in), my wife and kids have their possessions there, and I don't see why I should allow anyone to rummage around our home if we don't want them to and are not obliged to under the lease.

Would I be within my rights to refuse?

listermint

What did you base your offer on. Have you compared it to he property price Register and also recent askings in the area ?

limnam

After one or two viewings we got tired of it and advised them we wouldn't be accepting anymore during our notice period.

Landlord was fine with it.

questionmark?

Considering he would have to give you 224 days notice as you are there eight years I would suggest the landlord is wasting his time even shown people around at the moment even if you did consent.

Yes you would be entitled to refuse but if you want a good reference and deposit back then work with the landlord.

whomitconcerns

If he hasn't given you notice then he's not serious about selling. Don't let anyone other than the landlord and his/her agent access the house and only then at reasonable request.

Fol20

The ll isn’t forced to take your offer, and you seem to have built up some animosity towards his rejections. Personally even if it was a good deal, I’d prefer to leave it on the free market having piece of mind that I did as much as I could to achieve the best rate.

You sound like your dangling the viewings over his head if he doesn’t accept your offer which is a completely wrong mentality in this. As others have said, if you want a reference and all your deposit back without any hassle meet the ll half way. Likewise once it’s on the market, there’s nothing to stop you bidding on the place. If anything, it could put more closure on this and you might still get the property but by playing it the way your doing now, I would probably reject your highest offer out of spite unless your substantially more than the second highest offer.

Deagol

CiboC wrote: »

Our landlord wants to sell, we have been in discussion with them for some time and have made what we consider to be 2 reasonable offers to buy the property.

They have declined our most recent offer and have decided to put the house on the market.

They have said there are a number of parties who wish to view, and hope that we will cooperate with that.

Now here is the thing - Our lease does not mention anything about this eventuality, and so does not specify any obligation to cooperate.

We have lived there for over 8 years and have not yet received any notice to quit.

I really feel that I should be able to tell them that if they don't want to accept our offer that's their choice, but they can wait until I'm gone before I'll allow anyone to view my home. I have all my personal possessions there (the property was unfurnished when we moved in), my wife and kids have their possessions there, and I don't see why I should allow anyone to rummage around our home if we don't want them to and are not obliged to under the lease.

Would I be within my rights to refuse?

Interestingly, for me at least, I've just cancelled a viewing of a house because the estate agent told be they were having trouble getting the agreed upon time and date for a viewing sorted out because tenant said it wasn't convenient to them.

I don't want the possible problems of going sale agreed and then finding the tenant overholds so I've decided to not view houses that have tenants. Your question from tenants viewpoint makes me even feel more comfortable I've made the right decision. Estate agent was not happy!

CiboC

listermint wrote: »

What did you base your offer on. Have you compared it to he property price Register and also recent askings in the area ?

That's really got nothing to do with my question, but yes, my offers were based on two recent sales on the road (although one of them has just fallen through).

questionmark? wrote: »

Considering he would have to give you 224 days notice as you are there eight years I would suggest the landlord is wasting his time even shown people around at the moment even if you did consent.

I'm inclined to agree, but we are ready to buy and have the finance in place so I would not be looking at renting a new place, but buying instead.

Fol20 wrote: »

The ll isn’t forced to take your offer, and you seem to have built up some animosity towards his rejections. Personally even if it was a good deal, I’d prefer to leave it on the free market having piece of mind that I did as much as I could to achieve the best rate.

You sound like your dangling the viewings over his head if he doesn’t accept your offer which is a completely wrong mentality in this.

Of course I appreciate he doesn't have to take my offer, and I'm ok with that even though I feel they were fair. I'm not dangling anything over his head, it has only come up now and we are considering the implications.

My family do not want strangers roaming around our home. All our possessions are there. Who takes responsibility if something goes missing? Who takes responsibility if something is damaged?

Evd-Burner

I'm not a landlord or a tenant but still like to give you me 2 cents if I was in your position.

Id allow the landlord enter for inspections but there is no way I would allow viewings without notice even served and at that if it was served and I was to allow viewings it wouldn't be until towards the end of the notice period. If you started viewings at the start it would be never ending for months on end.

It sounds to me like the landlord is obviously trying to maximize their investment in terms of capital and rent collection. Which is obviously their objective but that does not mean that you have to waive your right to peaceful exclusive use of your home.

the_syco

CiboC wrote: »

We have lived there for over 8 years and have not yet received any notice to quit.

When looking for a new place to rent, the new LL may wonder why you can't provide a LL reference for these 8 years. Because if the LL can't show the house, they have no reason to give you a good reference.

davindub

Op,

I would allow viewings but start looking at other houses yourself. You might save money by bidding along with other bidders or on another property.

Dav010

After 8 years a notice of termination is a huge jolt to the system. The official notice hasn’t arrived yet, but you know it is coming, and the reality is your tenancy will end, probably some time in the new year. This gives you a lot of time to find a new house, to buy or rent.

Co-operation will work both ways, to rent a new house, chances are a reference will be important. A few will come on here telling you they aren’t, but with the difficulty associated with eviction, a Landlord would be nuts not to check out a prospective tenant by contacting previous LL. As the syco posted, you not having one after 8 years would set off alarm bells. Also, you are also required to give notice when you want to leave, if you see a property you want to buy or even rent, the LL may facilitate this by letting you break the tenancy early rather than holding you to the full notice, or indeed maybe stay on a short period after the end date until your deal completes.

While you are within your rights to refuse viewings, the chances of someone stealing/damaging anything is remote. A refusal just sours the relationship and probably makes life more difficult for you than it does the LL, it will certainly harden his stance about your offer and the notice. What you could do is allow for a small number of viewings at a time of your convenience like 2-4 on Saturday, none during the week and none while kids are there.

limnam

the_syco wrote: »

When looking for a new place to rent, the new LL may wonder why you can't provide a LL reference for these 8 years. Because if the LL can't show the house, they have no reason to give you a good reference.

Sounds like he's looking to buy.

Anyway I've never liked the idea of doing x because the landlord might do y

It's perfectly acceptable not to want to keep having moving the family out of the house for viewings.

serve notice and once they move out they can view it anything time they like without inconviencing a family with or without the threat of what a land lord may or may not do.

Dav010

limnam wrote: »

Sounds like he's looking to buy.

Anyway I've never liked the idea of doing x because the landlord might do y

It's perfectly acceptable not to want to keep having moving the family out of the house for viewings.

serve notice and once they move out they can view it anything time they like without inconviencing a family with or without the threat of what a land lord may or may not do.

Both parties may benefit from x and y, the LL does not have to accept the offer, provide a reference nor be flexible with the op over notice, it is certainly worth considering keeping on good terms.

It also gives the op an indication of level of interest in the property, if the op is co operative, this may work in their favour when making a bid which the LL would consider.

Browney7

But with no reference the tenant will have no where to go and then overhold for a million years and wreck the house and pay no rent and play the system (or so the doomsayers on here would lead you to believe)

A smart LL would provide a reference to get rid, regardless of how "difficult" the tenant was

Dav010

Browney7 wrote: »

But with no reference the tenant will have no where to go and then overhold for a million years and wreck the house and pay no rent and play the system (or so the doomsayers on here would lead you to believe)

A smart LL would provide a reference to get rid, regardless of how "difficult" the tenant was

Overholding has serious implications for the tenant, in this case the op obviously has funds if he/she is bidding on a house and an adjudication puts the ops name up there on the best database in the country for tenants to avoid. So eviction would happen with little hope renting again.

Browney7

Dav010 wrote: »

Overholding has serious implications for the tenant, in this case the op obviously has funds if he/she is bidding on a house and an adjudication puts the ops name up there on the best database in the country for tenants to avoid. So eviction would happen with little hope renting again.

So the overholding and fears of delinquent tenants is overdone around here then if you rent to someone who has two pennies to rub together?

Dav010

Browney7 wrote: »

So the overholding and fears of delinquent tenants is overdone around here then if you rent to someone who has two pennies to rub together?

I am not arguing with you, nor am I saying the op should allow viewings, he/she is absolutely entitled to peaceful enjoyment during the tenancy. But, by co-operating it may make it easier to rent a new property and leave early if the right property to buy/rent comes up.

Yes the op could refuse viewings, and indeed over hold, but that is not without risk to the op. One of the problems for landlords is that RTB adjudications where an award is granted against the tenant are worthless if the tenant has no money, this is not the case here so the op has something to lose if the RTB rules against them in a dispute.

Put simply, you get along to get along. In this case both the op and the LL can help, or hinder each other. So some flexibility might be a good idea.

Star Lord

The OP has already said they're looking to buy, not rent again, so the above is moot tbh.

If the LL (or the OP!) hasn't yet given notice, then I'd say absolutely refuse to have viewings, unless near to the end of the tenancy/notice period, as it's way too far in advance for this to happen otherwise.

Evd-Burner

Everyone seems to be going on about the OP re renting when they have already said they are looking at buying. They don't need a reference for renting in the future.

The OP wishes to buy, when the LL gives notice it will be for 224 days (8 months) , if the OP was to start looking for somewhere straight away and find a house the OP could serve 112 days (4 months) notice during the LL notice once sale agreed and contracts signed, which is a reasonable timeframe to go from sale agreed to closing could even allow for a few weeks overlap to allow for the move.

Lackadaisical

I'd be a bit iffy about viewings. When I was renting (a good few years ago) the landlord was selling and the viewings were extremely disruptive.

We walked in one day to someone literally opening desk drawers which had nothing to do with the viewing!

I found the viewers in most cases were fine but one or two seemed to treat us with almost contempt and were very unpleasant.

On a few occasions viewings also happened when we were at work without any prior agreement. We only noticed as everything in the kitchen had been rammed into a supermarket bag and shoved into a cupboard.

Toots

My sister in law was in a similar situation only she wasn't in a position to buy - she had to have the 224 day notice but the LL wanted to have viewings straight away. She said having people traipsing through the house every weekend for the full notice period was unreasonable (it is) but that she would be happy to accommodate viewings for the last 4 weeks of the notice period, providing she was given a minimum of 3 days notice for each one.

Landlord was happy with that and she got a good reference. By that stage, she had a lot of her stuff packed away in preparation for moving, and when she got the 3 days notice for viewing she'd put any personal items she didn't want in the house during the viewings in a box in the attic.

Toots

Also, if he hasn't even given notice yet, is he planning on trying to sell with tenants in situ?

spaceHopper

Set boundaries, tell the LL that you are happy for them to have one open viewing on a Saturday morning a month. They can also arrange appointments for day x every week but only that day - don't even ask for other days.

Now you can work this to your advantage. Talk to the EA give them your offer, spend 150 euros and get the house valued to back up your offer.

Nobody would take the risk of buying a house with a sitting tenant. Either the bank is making him sell or he's separating... but it's very likely he's going through the motions, it which case he won't sell. Find out why he's selling

But on the off chance he's serious, if the EA doesn't recommend your offer. Do a secret shopper, get a friend to view it twice. Get them to offer say 300k you offer 312K chances are there will be no other offers.

Fol20

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Everyone seems to be going on about the OP re renting when they have already said they are looking at buying. They don't need a reference for renting in the future.

The OP wishes to buy, when the LL gives notice it will be for 224 days (8 months) , if the OP was to start looking for somewhere straight away and find a house the OP could serve 112 days (4 months) notice during the LL notice once sale agreed and contracts signed, which is a reasonable timeframe to go from sale agreed to closing could even allow for a few weeks overlap to allow for the move.

Have you ever been involved in the process of buying a house, it is painful at best and at worse, its down right terrible.

If you are going to make one of the biggest decisions of your life, it is not good to be under pressure to ensure all is complete within 8 months. Unless you strike gold and find your perfect place coupled with a successful bid, 8 months is not enough time. The solicitor stage can even take this long. The quickest i have closed is 3 months and that was with a lot of pressure from both parties and no issues on the deeds. The longest is 12 months for me. I suspect, the OP will more than likely need to rent for at least another 1-2 years to find the best house they can afford.

What toots proposed is fair.

@spacehopper - unless the ea has history with you, most will look for AIP and wont allow a random person to put in a random bid unless they can confirm funds.

Evd-Burner

Fol20 wrote:

If you are going to make one of the biggest decisions of your life, it is not good to be under pressure to ensure all is complete within 8 months. Unless you strike gold and find your perfect place coupled with a successful bid, 8 months is not enough time. The solicitor stage can even take this long. The quickest i have closed is 3 months and that was with a lot of pressure from both parties and no issues on the deeds. The longest is 12 months for me. I suspect, the OP will more than likely need to rent for at least another 1-2 years to find the best house they can afford.

In the process at the moment and aim to close in 2 weeks. We began looking around April and went sale agreed end of May.

From my experience and my brother who is also looking once you have the funds in place and are determined to find somewhere you will find it.

Fol20 wrote:

@spacehopper - unless the ea has history with you, most will look for AIP and wont allow a random person to put in a random bid unless they can confirm funds.

I bid without AIP.

spaceHopper

Fol20 wrote: »

@spacehopper - unless the ea has history with you, most will look for AIP and wont allow a random person to put in a random bid unless they can confirm funds.

Maybe when we bought in 2012, we had it only one who looked for it and that was because we were up against a cash buyer.

The OP can still make an offer through the EA, even ask the EA not to tell the LL its them. I won't be easy to sell with a tenant in place so they have the upper hand.

Fol20

Evd-Burner wrote: »

In the process at the moment and aim to close in 2 weeks. We began looking around April and went sale agreed end of May.

From my experience and my brother who is also looking once you have the funds in place and are determined to find somewhere you will find it.



I bid without AIP.

You may have caught a lucky break. Those types of time frames would not be the norm. Even if you find the perfect place and offer accepted, there can be back end issues with deeds or other stuff that pop up that slow down the sale. If everything is very clean and both solicitors click 3 months is a very good time frame. If any issues pop up it can severely slow it down or even cause a deal to collapse depending on issues.

Not all ea’s look for AIP. I said most would as you can have some tyre kickers that waste everyone’s time. You would be surprised at some people who really don’t understand their finances and what they think they can get.

Fol20

spaceHopper wrote: »

Maybe when we bought in 2012, we had it only one who looked for it and that was because we were up against a cash buyer.

The OP can still make an offer through the EA, even ask the EA not to tell the LL its them. I won't be easy to sell with a tenant in place so they have the upper hand.

EA’s work for the seller so I wouldn’t hold out on them not telling the seller.

The tenant does not have the upper hand here. Yes they live there currently but the seller can decide to sell to whomever they decide. The leverage the tenant has accounts for very little unless if you have a seller in a forced sale and couldn’t care less about the price or they want a quick sale. That’s when this leverage could be useful.

ThreeGreens

Why not try to be reasonable and ask for reasonableness in return?

I'd explain to the landlord that you don't want to be living in a show house and you are entitled to enjoy the privacy of your home, but at the same time you want to facilitate them.

Then suggest that they organise viewing on a particular day so that you can leave the house neat and tidy (in their interest), and get it all over with on one day (in your interest).

If further viewings are necessary, then it could be organised on another day, but no more than 1 viewing per month.

That way you don't fall out with your landlord, and if your offer turns out to be the best, you might even still get to buy the property.

Most landlords aren't horrible. They understand that viewing won't be convenient for the tenant, and such a compromise is likely to be taken in the same good spirit that it's offered in.

You might also want to ask about notice and confirmation about when you need to leave by, rather than having an argument at the end (even if you are in the right with the notice period).

Dav010

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Everyone seems to be going on about the OP re renting when they have already said they are looking at buying. They don't need a reference for renting in the future.

The OP wishes to buy, when the LL gives notice it will be for 224 days (8 months) , if the OP was to start looking for somewhere straight away and find a house the OP could serve 112 days (4 months) notice during the LL notice once sale agreed and contracts signed, which is a reasonable timeframe to go from sale agreed to closing could even allow for a few weeks overlap to allow for the move.

Star Lord wrote: »

The OP has already said they're looking to buy, not rent again, so the above is moot tbh.

If the LL (or the OP!) hasn't yet given notice, then I'd say absolutely refuse to have viewings, unless near to the end of the tenancy/notice period, as it's way too far in advance for this to happen otherwise.

Best case scenario, op refuses viewings and by the the time notice is up, has a new home of their own to move into. Personally I am not in favour of viewings while there is a tenant in situ, I think the house looks better and is more appealing to buyers when empty. I’m selling off rental properties at the moment, but only as the tenants leave of their own accord and wouldn’t disturb them while they are there.

Having said that, plans don’t always work out the way you want and it is possible that by the end of the notice, the op does not have a home of there own, or they may see a house soon and because they are ready to buy, they may want to be out sooner than the notice a tenant must give. In that scenario where you need to stay on longer, leave earlier or find a new rental property, like it or not you need the landlords help, and that’s where the refusal can come back to bite you in the ass.

So, the op should keep their options open and maybe consider giving so leeway on viewings, you never know.