RTB has contacted me

Sarn

retropessir wrote: »

New issue I'll refer to as C) for my own tax purposes. I only moved into this house in July 2017. Since the tax year is from Jan 1- Dec 31 2017, in those 6 months I did not exceed 14,000 (including bills), and qualify for the rent-a-room-relief scheme. As for 2018, I certainly have exceeded it. I need to sort this out. I have not filled this out on revenue yet which was VERY stupid of me, however I plan on getting sorted ASAP. I'm a student and basically divided the rent amongst the other 4 rooms. The total rent I pay the landlord in a calendar year exceeds the 14,000 threshold.

Just be careful with your tax liability. As you exceeded €14,000 you will have to pay tax on the full amount. If it is just a case of collecting rent as an intermediary then you will be ok.

Edit: if you’ve no other income then there will unlikely be any tax to pay, but would still need to be declared.

The Student

terrydel wrote: »

From the op's very first post -

'(b) amidst this, I have realized my landlord has not registered MY tenancy with him over a year ago, despite having asked him to before I moved in. '

Are you happy for that situation to continue? Yes or no answer please.

Lads talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

To try and get this back on track. The main tenant is the only tenant in the eyes of the RTB. The other people living in the house are licensee's (you cant be a tenant and a licensee at the same time).

The extent of the RTB's remit on this matter from the tenants perspective is the non registration of the main tenancy and irrespective of the non registration the tenant is protected by the RTB.

The RTB has no jurisdiction over licensee arrangements.

The tenant should advise the landlord of the correspondence they have received, burying their head in the sand is not going to help, out of courtesy they should advise the landlord (who knew what will come out when the RTB contact the landlord for non registration of the main tenancy anyway).

Any other issues regarding the rights or wrongs of non registration is not the op's fault nor is any issue regarding the landlords tax status whether its above board or not.

It never ceases to amaze me how simple questions on boards gets turned to whatever agenda the boardies have a gripe about.

Cuddlesworth

retropessir wrote: »

I believe the moving around just means that their accommodation (i.e bedroom) is not exclusive. The nature of the complaint was noted in my first post

One of the main points around exclusivity and the exemptions to the RTB is that a person cannot have exclusive rights to a room in somebody else's house while they live there. Even recent attempts to change how licensees are viewed does not change that.

So if the RTB come back to you again, you just reiterate its your house, you live there and she was renting a room in it.

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

One of the main points around exclusivity and the exemptions to the RTB is that a person cannot have exclusive rights to a room in somebody else's house while they live there. Even recent attempts to change how licensees are viewed does not change that.

So if the RTB come back to you again, you just reiterate its your house, you live there and she was renting a room in it.

Exactly, tell them a licensee agreement is not a requirement either that it was just word of mouth which is how rent a room scheme is normally done. Tell them it's your house, you live there and that you don’t expect to hear from them again full stop.

No idea why they think the op should have to provide a licensee agreement, I certainly would not be providing any agreement with a licensee as it will do nothing but make the licensee think they have rights.

retropessir

Cheers all.

I have replied to their email in which they have asked for the licensee agreement from the woman. They also asked me to confirm if I occupied the address in April 2019. I replied stating that a licensee agreement is not a requirement and in lieu attached two separate utility bills with my name on them from that month. I reiterated that the complaint was from a licensee who was letting a non-exclusive room from me at that time.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Inconsistencies.....

Cop on.
Please address the OP's query in a constructive manner.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Cop on about what exactly? I am pointing out there's inconsistencies between the two posts. One says they are living in the house for one year and the second says since July 2017.

It doesn't matter how long they have been living in the property.
They have clearly and unequivocally stated they are renting the property from the owner and subletting rooms to others. The length of time they have been renting the property- has no bearing whatsoever on their relationship with their licensees.

Deliberately trying to find inconsistencies in their narrative which have no bearing whatsoever on the question they are asking/information they are seeking clarity on- is needlessly nitpicking in a manner that has no relevance to the actual query.

retropessir

Can we please collectively agree to ignore whattow’s further posts. I don’t think anyone is finding them helpful and they’re steering my post in a completely argumentative and opposite direction.

Nobody is evading tax. I was simply ignorant to the laws regarding this. Compliant in 2017. In regards to 2018 it isn’t even time to fill in the Form 11/12 as I have til October to do so, so have not done anything wrong. Still have time to fill in form and pay the tax. I am aware and it will be sorted – not that it’s any of your business.

Best of luck and cheers.

retropessir

travist wrote: »

I wonder why did she was so disgruntled? Did you hold on to the month deposit, yet rent the room out to someone else within the same time period?

She was disgruntled for the reasons stated prior.

travist

so basically,.in her mind... you didn't give her a fair amount back anyway. Brings a lot of trouble now for that extra few quid.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

retropessir wrote: »

I said the facts because you brought up RTA legislation which is not a factor here. The fact she decided to give her 30 days notice so she could live somewhere that would allow her to get a dog is her own decision. The fact she did not pay rent for those remaining days and moved out earlier was also a decision of hers. I accepted her 30 days. I held what was constituted for the rent she did not pay within those final 30 days.

Nobody has taken advantage of this woman, nothing is “telling” about her decision to stay two months, to not pay the remaining rent and then be held accountable.

If the person is a licensee, termination notice is at your discretion, which is a reasonable time to leave the property. So I assume, licensees have similar rights. So on what legal basis did you keep part of the deposit for the rent of the rest of the month? I am also going to risk a ban & say straight up I don't think we're getting the whole story. I get the impression that along with tax issues there's some level of overcrowding.

retropessir

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

If the person is a licensee, termination notice is at your discretion, which is a reasonable time to leave the property. So I assume, licensees have similar rights. So on what legal basis did you keep part of the deposit for the rent of the rest of the month?

She gave her notice in the middle of the May, which means she was to move out in middle of June. She had already paid for the month of May. Rent for June was due June 1st. She left on the last day of May where there were 15 days left in her 30 day notice. She was liable for the remainder of her notice. She was disgruntled because those 15 days were deducted from her deposit. She believes she was due that back simply because she wasn’t in the accommodation.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

retropessir wrote: »

She gave her notice in the middle of the May, which means she was to move out in middle of June. She had already paid for the month of May. Rent for June was due June 1st. She left on the last day of May where there were 15 days left in her 30 day notice. She was liable for the remainder of her notice. She was disgruntled because those 15 days in June were deducted from her deposit. She believes she was due that back simply because she wasn’t in the accommodation. In addition, our contract states this, which she also signed her name to prior to moving in.

Licensees can move out at a moments notice, in the same way that you can evict within the time it takes for her to pack her bags. There's no legal basis to hold part of the rent & I doubt the contract would stand up. Rent a room relief also does not apply as you're renting out more than one room. There's a definite tax liability.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Licensees can move out at a moments notice, in the same way that you can evict within the time it takes for her to pack her bags. There's no legal basis to hold part of the rent & I doubt the contract would stand up.

The OP gave her a contract.
Rightly or wrongly- it is legally binding on both of them.
Whether you choose to enforce it or not, is an entirely different matter.
For the sake of a quiet life- I'd be inclined not to pursue it.
For whatever reason- the OP choose to enforce it.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The_Conductor wrote: »

The OP gave her a contract.
Rightly or wrongly- it is legally binding on both of them.
Whether you choose to enforce it or not, is an entirely different matter.

Not likely. Small things like unfair terms heavily weighted in one persons favour is all it takes to make a contract non-binding. OP opened a whole can of worms by withholding part of the deposit. Revenue will also know about set-up because both orgs communicate with each other too.

The_Conductor

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Not likely. Small things like unfair terms heavily weighted in one persons favour is all it takes to make a contract non-binding. OP opened a whole can of worms by withholding part of the deposit. Revenue will also know about set-up because both orgs communicate with each other too.

A 30 day notice contract- is far from unusual in such instances (however, it is normally recommended not to give a licensee a contract, full stop, as in general, by giving them a contract, you are inferring rights on them that they are not necessarily entitled to).

As for the RTB and Revenue sharing information- yep, they do- however, not in the case of licensees- who do not come under the remit of the RTB. A licensee situation would be the obligation of the primary dweller in a property to notify to the Revenue Commissioners via an annual tax return. Regardless of whether or not they hit the 14k limit- they are legally obligated to report the income in full, and liable for tax on it in its entirety at their marginal rate of taxation. Once they keep under the 14k- no tax, not even USC or PRSI, is due.

In this instance- as it is a licensee situation (regardless of whether or not the gross income comes under the 14k, or not)- any notice obligation to the Revenue Commissioners- rests with the OP- and not the RTB.

You seem intent on murkying the waters- by exploring avenues that simply are not pertinent to the OP's query. Please stop doing so. If you have good relevant information- directly answering the OP's query- feel free to impart it- otherwise- please stop trying to derail the OP's thread.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The_Conductor wrote: »

A 30 day notice contract- is far from unusual in such instances (however, it is normally recommended not to give a licensee a contract, full stop, as in general, by giving them a contract, you are inferring rights on them that they are not necessarily entitled to).

As for the RTB and Revenue sharing information- yep, they do- however, not in the case of licensees- who do not come under the remit of the RTB. A licensee situation would be the obligation of the primary dweller in a property to notify to the Revenue Commissioners via an annual tax return. Regardless of whether or not they hit the 14k limit- they are legally obligated to report the income in full, and liable for tax on it in its entirety at their marginal rate of taxation (if they exceed 14k). Once they keep under the 14k- no tax, not even USC or PRSI, is due.

In this instance- as it is a licensee situation (regardless of whether or not the gross income comes under the 14k, or not)- any notice obligation to the Revenue Commissioners- rests with the OP- and not the RTB.

You seem intent on murkying the waters- by exploring avenues that simply are not pertinent to the OP's query. Please stop doing so. If you have good relevant information- directly answering the OP's query- feel free to impart it- otherwise- please stop trying to derail the OP's thread.

Tax advisor begs to differ re Revenue. How is it murkeying the waters by telling the OP that there's tax liabilities, that they cannot claim rent a room relief, that the contract has no legal standing, after six months licensees can apply to go on the lease and can revert to the RTB, & pointing out inconsistencies. Would have thought that it's best the OP knows what ahead and what they're dealing with rather than people telling them what they want to hear.

The_Conductor

Whattow- do not post any further in this thread.
Thankyou.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Tax advisor begs to differ re Revenue. How is it murkeying the waters by telling the OP that there's tax liabilities, that they cannot claim rent a room relief, that the contract has no legal standing, after six months licensees can apply to go on the lease and can revert to the RTB, & pointing out inconsistencies. Would have thought that it's best the OP knows what ahead and what they're dealing with rather than people telling them what they want to hear.

You can’t reply but I’ll make a few points myself.

I’m not unsympathetic to the licensee here as I think the op could have left the 15 days go but:

1) he’s clearly well aware of tax liabilities and says he is compliant
2) the contract for licensees is valid provided it’s legal in itself and fair to both parties. If both sides agree to 30 days that’s legal. I know this because I had a contract when I rented in an owner occupied house and used it.
3) the 6 months is clearly not relevant here.

All the op has to worry about is that the landlord may get caught up in this.

retropessir

Because the topic of not giving back 15 days worth of deposit back for rent has been brought up, I just wanted to clarify for the sake of anyone’s curiosity – apart from it being owed to me by agreement in contract by herself.

The reason I was unsympathetic towards the deposit was because when this woman moved in, she had a sob story I fell for and purchased things for her that she needed out of my own pocket (lesson learned). She then wanted to move somewhere she would be allowed a dog since I was clear that a dog wasn’t allowed in the accommodation.

I actually went with her the day to see the accommodation she was interested in. She gave me the 30 day notice on this day.

A week later I asked her to clean up garbage she was leaving around the house that I stopped wanting to take responsibility to clean up after.

She became heated about being asked to do something, and refused to pay a bill that came up in discussion that was due while she was angry (Wasnt surprised, she couldn’t afford basic things when she arrived that I covered for her. But with the deposit I didn’t worry about not having the money to cover things she couldn’t afford, such as rent or bills.) I then said I wouldn’t be paying further things for her she’s responsible for (I.e bills) in addition to what I already bought for her out of my own pocket when she arrived. She then agreed to pay the bill and it was fine. She then left early without paying the remainder of the rent as per above. Wasn’t surprised. I retained the deposit for what was owed to me – rent only. Did not add onto it the groceries I bought her, basic living essentials..

She was a massive financial liability in the end with absolutely no regard for others she lived with.

Being a licensee, I was prepared to have this come up in SCC, however not with the RTB which clearly have no jurisdiction.

Marcusm

The_Conductor wrote: »

A 30 day notice contract- is far from unusual in such instances (however, it is normally recommended not to give a licensee a contract, full stop, as in general, by giving them a contract, you are inferring rights on them that they are not necessarily entitled to).

As for the RTB and Revenue sharing information- yep, they do- however, not in the case of licensees- who do not come under the remit of the RTB. A licensee situation would be the obligation of the primary dweller in a property to notify to the Revenue Commissioners via an annual tax return. Regardless of whether or not they hit the 14k limit- they are legally obligated to report the income in full, and liable for tax on it in its entirety at their marginal rate of taxation (if they exceed 14k). Once they keep under the 14k- no tax, not even USC or PRSI, is due.

In this instance- as it is a licensee situation (regardless of whether or not the gross income comes under the 14k, or not)- any notice obligation to the Revenue Commissioners- rests with the OP- and not the RTB.

You seem intent on murkying the waters- by exploring avenues that simply are not pertinent to the OP's query. Please stop doing so. If you have good relevant information- directly answering the OP's query- feel free to impart it- otherwise- please stop trying to derail the OP's thread.

Your tax analysis is very flawed and should not be muddied by bolded Moderator comments in the same post. It might be taken as having some basis in law.

A person is not required to follow the rent a room relief scheme.

In this case, the Sch D Case V computation in respect if the property would consist of income in respect of the rent from the sub tenant less any relevant expenses which would principally consist of the appropriate portion of the rent payable to the ultimate landlord. Provided there is no surplus/excess, there is no Sch D Case V income and thus no assessable income in the hands of the OP. The OP could be in receipt if €14k per month not to mind €14k per annum provided the OP is not making any rental profit there is no assessable income.

This whole tax discussion is a distraction from the OP’s actual questions.

Julianna Thundering Mind

Julianna Thundering Mind wrote: »

Licensees can move out at a moments notice, in the same way that you can evict within the time it takes for her to pack her bags. There's no legal basis to hold part of the rent & I doubt the contract would stand up. Rent a room relief also does not apply as you're renting out more than one room. There's a definite tax liability.

You haven’t a clue what you are talking about, stop talking rubbish giving the op incorrect advice.

The rent a room relief applies regardless of how many rooms are rented so that’s totally incorrect along with most of the rest of what you are saying.

retropessir

Marcusm wrote: »

Your tax analysis is very flawed and should not be muddied by bolded Moderator comments in the same post. It might be taken as having some basis in law.

A person is not required to follow the rent a room relief scheme.

In this case, the Sch D Case V computation in respect if the property would consist of income in respect of the rent from the sub tenant less any relevant expenses which would principally consist of the appropriate portion of the rent payable to the ultimate landlord. Provided there is no surplus/excess, there is no Sch D Case V income and thus no assessable income in the hands of the OP. The OP could be in receipt if €14k per month not to mind €14k per annum provided the OP is not making any rental profit there is no assessable income.

This whole tax discussion is a distraction from the OP’s actual questions.

Thank you both however for addressing this. FYI I am not making any additional income from this, the rent outlined by landlord is simply divided amongst the other rooms, to which I collect and transfer to the landlord.

terrydel

retropessir wrote: »

Thank you both however for addressing this. FYI I am not making any additional income from this, the rent outlined by landlord is simply divided amongst the other rooms, to which I collect and transfer to the landlord.

You said in a previous post that in 2018 you made in excess of 14k, that's at odds with what you are saying here. Please clarify.

Graham

Mod Note

Thread reopened.

Some off topic posts have been deleted.

Thanks for the patience folks.

retropessir

terrydel wrote: »

You said in a previous post that in 2018 you made in excess of 14k, that's at odds with what you are saying here. Please clarify.

Would you calm down.

Two different theories coming at me to which I have interpreted two different scenarios and therefore the same facts but two different answers.

In the case that what I make as a profit is what must be under the 14k threshold, it is therefore zero and I simply stated I collect the rent and give to landlord. I do not make 14k profit off these people, to which my recent post says I do not make a profit and therefore am not exceeding a 14k threshold as it is effectively zero as some have stated. I understood this as not exceeding a threshold, and answered as such.

The other theory I have been given is that regardless what goes to landlord, this must be declared and is what is calculated and taxed on. Therefore in 2018 I would have collected more than 14k in rent, which none of it stayed in my pocket. I understood earlier was exceeding a threshold, and answered as such.

terrydel

retropessir wrote: »

Would you calm down.

Two different theories coming at me to which I have interpreted two different scenarios and therefore the same facts but two different answers.

In the case that what I make as a profit is what must be under the 14k threshold, it is therefore zero and I simply stated I collect the rent and give to landlord. I do not make 14k profit off these people, to which my recent post says I do not make a profit and therefore am not exceeding a 14k threshold as it is effectively zero as some have stated. I understood this as not exceeding a threshold, and answered as such.

The other theory I have been given is that regardless what goes to landlord, this must be declared and is what is calculated and taxed on. Therefore in 2018 I would have collected more than 14k in rent, which none of it stayed in my pocket. I understood earlier was exceeding a threshold, and answered as such.

You clearly stated that you exceeded 14k, nothing to do with theories, are you saying that you seriously believed that money you were merely collecting and passing on was going to be a tax liability for you? I don't believe anyone would think they were eligible for tax on money they were simply collecting.
And I'm perfectly calm thanks.

Caranica

The rent a room threshold is for income not profit! You receive this money, the fact that you pass it on is neither here nor there.

It would be different if you were the landlord's agent and simply collecting the rent but by taking in licensees in this way you are personally liable for tax compliance.

retropessir

terrydel wrote: »

You clearly stated that you exceeded 14k, nothing to do with theories, are you saying that you seriously believed that money you were merely collecting and passing on was going to be a tax liability for you? I don't believe anyone would think they were eligible for tax on money they were simply collecting.
And I'm perfectly calm thanks.

I’m here to enquire about my situation, as I was clearly ignorant on the ins and outs about this regarding the RTB, which then led to me realizing about the tax situation.

I am not going to sit here and say I knew about it when I did not. However someone posted about it, I tried to assess my situation from that standpoint and answered as such. I’m clearly not a tax advisor.

However on this entire thread you seem to be here to just rip everything I and others are posting to absolute shreds. Nitpicking and picking fights with myself and others. You can see your way out unless you have anything helpful to add rather than just trying to play Sherlock Holmes. Clearly you have your own personal turmoil going on, seeing as you are so defensive for absolutely no reason.

Graham

Mod Note

Terrydell, quit the inquisitionstyle posts. Your posts are coming across as unnecessarily aggressive.

retropessir if you have an issue with a post, report it. Do not respond on thread.