Ireland's asylum hotel monthly bill tops €3.54m

Blueshoe

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

When the asylum seekers are holed up in a hotel and not allowed to work in any meaningful they are not contributing much to society.
We don't let them get jobs, so they cant pay taxes or rent so the taxpayer is forced to pay for them.

Let them get jobs if they want while they are waiting for their application results.
Their taxes will contribute to our economy rather than cost us.

We shouldn't forget that we are an island of emigrants and asylum seekers ourselves. When we went to Australia, UK and the USA there was significant pushback from allowing us in, worse than what is happening in Ireland now. Thankfully we were granted permission to enter and ended up contributing significantly to their societies.

They can go to Australia, UK and the USA then. Just like we did. They are huge economies who can absorb them. We can't.

4068ac1elhodqr

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

Irish emigration didnt stop in the 60's.

(Illegal) economic migration did, and today the undocumented anywhere get the boot. You did read about the chap last week facing US deportation after many years.

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

Your fear of the next industrial revolution is common and understandable.

Not the next, it's the current, in case you're unaware. Fear not, your ignorance of this is very common and understandable.

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

There will be flux of jobs, but the past has shown us that overall, the net benefit is that we will be better off.

A lazy assumption, the past does not equate the future. The net? The 'current' growth and any future 'flux' (growth) does not include sectors of the great unskilled.

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

For example, in the Steam revolution, the Luddites ..

Again the default copy-paste ultra-lazy comparisons, this (Luddites...) is actually insulting to my intelect.

You do undertand what ai-autonomy actually means, no? Have you heard of self-learning robotics and inteligence that is gradualy replacing any and everything a lower skilled human asset can do? You are aware of various studies and expected timelines for the specific waves of automation, no?

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

Back to the main topic about asylum seekers and their cost to our economy. I agree, morally, we should help them at the source....Most immigrants are of working age. If we can get immigrants of working age before retirement, we get an even bigger net increase. So let them work.

Indeed, helping at source is best, it would help reduce the 90% of cases that here are invalid, thus clearly un-genuine 'economic migrants'. Genuine refugees are left behind as they cannot pay thousands to organised gangs for passage.

You right, most economic migrants are of working age, mid 20's and male and uneducated and unskilled. This is the sector where it's hardest (even for natives with reasonable education and good literacy) to find work.

This group are precisely the ones most likely to end up on the scrapheap. You can't magic them a job that won't exist, nor expect them to compile Python & ECMAScripts after a 6wk training course. Nor to become Doctors or Engineers when they likely haven't even finished an elementary/high school type education.

SchrodingersCat

Blueshoe wrote: »

They can go to Australia, UK and the USA then. Just like we did. They are huge economies who can absorb them. We can't

Yea, I guess we could send them there. But we would be passing the buck. We have a legal obligation to process asylum seekers when signed up for it with the UN. I think we have a moral obligation to help true refugees too.

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

(Illegal) economic migration did, and today the undocumented anywhere get the boot. You did read about the chap last week facing US deportation after many years.

That's not true either. Irish emigration did not stop in the 60's. Neither did your redefinition of (Illegal) economic Irish migration stop in the 60's. (Illegal) migrants were always illegal by definition. Your example of Keith Byrne disproves your point: He was an (illegal) irish immigrant working successfully for many years in the USA up until his unfortunate deportation. This didnt happen before the 60's,it happened last month. The Irish overstaying Visas or working on travel visas come to mind as illegal migrants too. We are getting lost in the weeds here.

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

Not the next, it's the current, in case you're unaware. Fear not, your ignorance of this is very common and understandable.
A lazy assumption, the past does not equate the future. The net? The 'current' growth and any future 'flux' (growth) does not include sectors of the great unskilled.
Again the default copy-paste ultra-lazy comparisons, this (Luddites...) is actually insulting to my intelect.
You do undertand what ai-autonomy actually means, no? Have you heard of self-learning robotics and inteligence that is gradualy replacing any and everything a lower skilled human asset can do? You are aware of various studies and expected timelines for the specific waves of automation, no?

To remphasise my point, another industrial revolution will bring flux in the workforce (changing jobs, not necessarily growth) short term. Longer term,
all the industrial revolutions have increased wealth, given us longer lifespans, reduced poverty and overall, a better quality of living.
Yes, history cant be a guarantee it will be the same with this one. But it is a stronger indicator than speculation.

I dont mean to make you feel that you are insulted or that your intellect is insulted by this debate. We need to have this asylum application debate in Ireland,
it will help us to come to a conclusion that more agree with.

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

Indeed, helping at source is best, it would help....Doctors or Engineers when they likely haven't even finished an elementary/high school type education.

We are agreed that helping them at the source is the better choice. But we failed at this with Syria, for example. So now there are legimite refugees applying for asylum
here that we have to process. They were a pretty developed country before the **** hit the fan. As a result, doctors, engineers, laywers and lower skilled workers were forced out of
the country. If we find that the cost of housing all of them too expensive, then maybe a solution is to reduce the application wait times. The OECD report that they will
have virtually no impact on the Irish labour workforce, so let them work while while they are being processed to contribute to our economy like other european countries.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/no-impact-from-additional-refugees-on-irish-workforce-population-says-report-1.3537865.
I have no issue with thoes who fail the asylum application process getting deported. I dont think its fair to include the legimite refugees in with them.

Kivaro

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

I dont think its fair to include the legimite refugees in with them.

Here is the issue though, the modus operandi of those who advocate for open borders (or extremely lax entry requirements) into Ireland is that they deliberately conflate legitimate asylum seekers/refugees with economic migrants. We constantly see it here, in the newsprint, and on the airwaves. The majority in Ireland have no issues with legitimate asylum seekers.

However, the overwhelming vast majority of asylum seekers are economic migrants, and they are using the Irish asylum process to get into the country. Once in, it is almost unheard of if they are deported after multiple appeals. They usually get leave to remain. And we should expect to hear a general amnesty for all asylum seekers from Fine Gael soon.

The problem we have now is trying to separate economic migrants who want to work and welfare shoppers.
Here is the information you asked for previously:
O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups.
From http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publi...rywp201816.pdf

weldoninhio

Darc19 wrote: »

Did you know that over 60% of "homeless" are either travellers or immigrants.

Did you know that the EU provides funding for part of the refugee intake

Did you know that we as a country need an awful lot more people of working age and younger to ensure vital jobs are filled and tax take grows.

Once immigrants can show they have no criminal or violent record, and can show an aptitude to work or education, it is my opinion that they should be allowed stay.

Did you know that Greece has youth unemployment of 40.4%?

Did you know that Spain has youth unemployment of 31.7%?

Did you know that Italy has youth unemployment of 30.5%?

I could go on.

Why aren't we setting up a department/programme to get these youths from our fellow EU countries to work in Ireland?? Why do we NEED to import from the third world to shore up these imaginary gaps in our economy??

SchrodingersCat

Kivaro wrote: »

Here is the information you asked for previously: O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. From http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publi...rywp201816.pdf

Thanks for that. I read your source and in particular, the conclusion, where the following is summarised:

This paper set out to explore why African immigrants have poor labour market outcomes in Ireland, with very low employment and exceptionally high unemployment rates.
...
Previous research has suggested that some of the African disadvantage may be due to the policy of excluding asylum seekers from the labour market in the Direct Provision system. [p.20]
...
The analyses show that these asylum risk variables do influence labour market outcomes, reducing employment chances and increasing unemployment odds. [p. 21,22]

So it looks like our policy of not letting asylum seekers work does increase their unemployment. Further, they make the remaining interesting points in your source:

...
Thus, for example, if Africans as a group tended to be less educated or older than other groups then this might help to explain why they display lower employment and higher unemployment. In fact, however, I found that Africans are a relatively well-educated group and are concentrated in the prime working age groups. [p.21]
...
In June 2018 the Government announced that asylum seekers would be allowed to work from nine months after their application for asylum is lodged if they have not received a decision on their case. Hopefully, this may help to bring to an end a grudging approach to the treatment of asylum seekers seeking protection in Ireland, a policy stance that this paper demonstrates has had lasting negative impacts on their labour market prospects. [p. 22]
...
This would suggest that the disadvantages experienced by Africans in the Irish labour market appear to be due to a combination of restrictive policies the part of the state and discriminatory practices on the part of employers. [p. 23]
....

This appears to be different from your summary of its conclusion:

Kivaro wrote: »

We would love for migrants to work and contribute, but when you hear the staggering statistic that 60% of African adults in Ireland are unemployed, then it begs far deeper questions on why this is happening e.g. they have no need to work due to the very generous welfare state that exists in this country

But look, I dont blame you for holding this view. There are many in Ireland that dont read these documents (myself included) and pick up on the soundbite and add their own conclusion.

Link here to document for others to read.

With regards to your later point, the majority of asylum applicants in Ireland are rejected and deported. The breakdown of the figures are here. We gave refugee status to 698 of applicants last year in total, which I assume includes those after appeal.

Boggles

Kivaro wrote: »

We would love for migrants to work and contribute, but when you hear the staggering statistic that 60% of African adults in Ireland are unemployed

This lie again, by the same token Ireland has a 34% unemployment rate.

The new study from the Economic and Social Research Institute has examined how well migrants are settling in the country.

It has found that 16% of Africans living in Ireland are out of work, compared with 4% of people from western European countries.

The employment rate for Africans in Ireland was also very low at 45%, while 66% of Irish nationals were working.

Amount of people - Employment rate does not equal unemployment rate.

But you know that. It's all in the report you keep linking to.

:rolleyes:

Kivaro

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

But look, I dont blame you for holding this view. There are many in Ireland that dont read these documents (myself included) and pick up on the soundbite and add their own conclusion.

Nicely condescending.

"In fact, however, I found that Africans are a relatively well-educated group and are concentrated in the prime working age groups."

When this particular academic speaks about "fact", he is in fact talking about the self-reporting by the Africans about their educational background.
Just because I self-report as an astronaut does not necessarily mean that I am an actual astronaut, but if it gets me into the States and they take it as fact when I tell them, well then ...............

I repeat one of the few passages from the report that is not skewed in a way that only liberal academics can do:
O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. From http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publi...rywp201816.pdf

Kivaro

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

With regards to your later point, the majority of asylum applicants in Ireland are rejected and deported. The breakdown of the figures are here. We gave refugee status to 698 of applicants last year in total, which I assume includes those after appeal.

Surely, you do not expect us to believe what an alliance of 104 NGOs across Europe is publishing?
It would be the same as if a poster of the opposite spectrum posted a link to a far-right site.

By the way, regarding the source of your information:
It is an organisation that protects and advances the rights of refugees, asylum seekers, and displaced persons.

With regards to your later point, the majority of asylum applicants in Ireland are rejected and deported.

Very sneaky there.
While there was a 70% rejection rate (from your own link), nowhere does it say anything about deportation.
Very sneaky.

screamer

And how much are we handing out in foreign aid? We’re some gob****es

743.42 million in 2017: ( how is this even contemplated in a country of less than 2 million tax payers. No wonder we’re in debt to our necks, all fur coat and no knickers)
To help achieve our goal of eradicating poverty and hunger in the world’s poorest countries, the Government allocates significant funding to our aid programme. Most of this funding is managed by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade through Irish Aid. Our Irish Aid 2017 Annual Report gives a detailed analysis of how and where this money is spent.

McHardcore

Kivaro wrote: »

Nicely condescending.

"In fact, however, I found that Africans are a relatively well-educated group and are concentrated in the prime working age groups."

When this particular academic speaks about "fact", he is in fact talking about the self-reporting by the Africans about their educational background.
Just because I self-report as an astronaut does not necessarily mean that I am an actual astronaut, but if it gets me into the States and they take it as fact when I tell them, well then ...............

I repeat one of the few passages from the report that is not skewed in a way that only liberal academics can do:
O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. From http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publi...rywp201816.pdf

Are you seriously attempting to backtrack on your own link to your facts?

Ulysses Gaze

weldoninhio wrote: »

Did you know that Greece has youth unemployment of 40.4%?

Did you know that Spain has youth unemployment of 31.7%?

Did you know that Italy has youth unemployment of 30.5%?

I could go on.

Why aren't we setting up a department/programme to get these youths from our fellow EU countries to work in Ireland?? Why do we NEED to import from the third world to shore up these imaginary gaps in our economy??

I have asked this question on Boards many times and never had a reasonable answer to it.

Anyone care to take a shot at it here?

Kivaro

McHardcore wrote: »

Are you seriously attempting to backtrack on your own link to your facts?

You actually quoted me repeating the fact from my own link.
Maybe you should re-read it.

punisher5112

It's mainly down to getting in more so more is spent and also cheap cheap labour.

Private individuals and multi national corporations are making a killing with the more that come in euro signs are most definitely rolling.....

When will people wake up to the absolutely not fit for purpose system and how it's all done is to waste as much tax payer money as possible.

Why aren't we challenging the national debt and getting it down, where will we be next recession....

More budget cuts, health cuts, protection such as Gardai, customs and so on....., Councils and then we will be slapped with more taxes such as property tax, USC and so on.

mvl

- can ppl volunteer to help processing asylum applications - it must be a checklist somewhere easy to follow for ppl who have a regular degree: Ireland needs to be able to identify and send the fake ones home in couple of weeks ! every little helps ... preventing wasting tax payers money.


then ... why allow 9*% males these days, why not have quotas (adequate male/female ratio) ?

- otherwise, sounds to me all parents must start sending their daughters to self defense classes, things would get nasty here in few years.

Mr. teddywinkles

punisher5112 wrote: »

It's mainly down to getting in more so more is spent and also cheap cheap labour.

Private individuals and multi national corporations are making a killing with the more that come in euro signs are most definitely rolling.....

When will people wake up to the absolutely not fit for purpose system and how it's all done is to waste as much tax payer money as possible.

Why aren't we challenging the national debt and getting it down, where will we be next recession....

More budget cuts, health cuts, protection such as Gardai, customs and so on....., Councils and then we will be slapped with more taxes such as property tax, USC and so on.

As I said before here all about more consumers no matter where they come from or where the money comes from (Johnny taxpayer). More debt till the whole thing implodes. Cheap low skill labour yes but automation will make that obsolete also.

Blueshoe

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I have asked this question on Boards many times and never had a reasonable answer to it.

Anyone care to take a shot at it here?

Why do we want them in Ireland?

Our youth unemployment is 13%. Get that close to zero before we bring in other countries problems

screamer

weldoninhio wrote: »

Did you know that Greece has youth unemployment of 40.4%?

Did you know that Spain has youth unemployment of 31.7%?

Did you know that Italy has youth unemployment of 30.5%?

I could go on.

Why aren't we setting up a department/programme to get these youths from our fellow EU countries to work in Ireland?? Why do we NEED to import from the third world to shore up these imaginary gaps in our economy??

But here’s the thing, we don’t need to import the European youth, they can come here to work no visas or anything needed. They chose not to, and TBH if they’ve that little ability or interest in coming here of their own volition then we don’t need their sort either....... probably happier to be piss poor in a warm climate than pissed on in wet Ireland.

punisher5112

screamer wrote: »

But here’s the thing, we don’t need to import the European youth, they can come here to work no visas or anything needed. They chose not to, and TBH if they’ve that little ability or interest in coming here of their own volition then we don’t need their sort either....... probably happier to be piss poor in a warm climate than pissed on in wet Ireland.

But then why are we allowing non EU nationals in to do exactly fook all but drain our services.

4068ac1elhodqr

Wonder how things will be after a hard brexit (figures are up from 26% in the year of brexit vote, to 34% now).

34% of people on Dublin city housing list are from abroad
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0815/1068870-housing/

A total of 34% are from other countries (consisting of 19% from the EU and 15% from non-EU countries).
The overall percentage of foreign-born applicants has increased from 26% in 2016.

Complex issues of course, still might be a good time to order in tents for Phoneix Park.

lola85

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

Wonder how things will be after a hard brexit (figures are up from 26% in the year of brexit vote, to 34% now).

34% of people on Dublin city housing list are from abroad
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0815/1068870-housing/

A total of 34% are from other countries (consisting of 19% from the EU and 15% from non-EU countries).
The overall percentage of foreign-born applicants has increased from 26% in 2016.

Complex issues of course, still might be a good time to order in tents for Phoneix Park.

Rock up get a low paid job for 6 months, stick your name on the housing list, Even go homeless for a bit, hey presto.

Airyfairy12

What do you expect the asylum seekers do? Live on the streets too? Im not debating that more needs to be done for the homeless but supporting asylum seekers is a separate issue. If the government can spend billions on private hospitals, Irish water and their own wages and pensions, they can support the homeless. I dont think its the poor asylum seekers we should be pointing the finger at.

bloodless_coup

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

Wonder how things will be after a hard brexit (figures are up from 26% in the year of brexit vote, to 34% now).

34% of people on Dublin city housing list are from abroad
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0815/1068870-housing/

A total of 34% are from other countries (consisting of 19% from the EU and 15% from non-EU countries).
The overall percentage of foreign-born applicants has increased from 26% in 2016.

Complex issues of course, still might be a good time to order in tents for Phoneix Park.

Imagine moving Canada or Australia and looking for a free house. You'd be laughed out of the country.

JP Liz V1

Ireland is a small country, how many can or are we suppose to take in?

Leo wants Ireland to look charitable, he should open up his own gaff up

A hotel in Macroom now has them, brought in secretly

mvl

Carl Puny Garlic wrote: »

Wonder how things will be after a hard brexit (figures are up from 26% in the year of brexit vote, to 34% now).

34% of people on Dublin city housing list are from abroad
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0815/1068870-housing/

A total of 34% are from other countries (consisting of 19% from the EU and 15% from non-EU countries).
The overall percentage of foreign-born applicants has increased from 26% in 2016.

Complex issues of course, still might be a good time to order in tents for Phoneix Park.

but are these all legal residents and have they got enough PRSI contributions to justify their housing request ? - imo not all social welfare benefits should be given to non-nationals - especially housing: if not enough PRSI contributions (you can add here a high enough number of years) it should be out of discussion.



then on the displaced migrants that are forcing themselves in for economic reasons: the government is selling them a rotten apple, since majority of these migrants would be dependent on social welfare for generations, with "low" salaries not enough to pay rent/keep a family in Ireland without a struggle - is this a reason to accuse the government of hypocrisy on all fronts ?


but I do wonder why ppl are not out in the streets for what's going on: as tax payer it is very frustrating to see where tax money goes ...and what I am getting in return.

McHardcore

Kivaro wrote: »

You actually quoted me repeating the fact from my own link.
Maybe you should re-read it.

You got called on your "facts" about African unemployment. You posted a link to back them up, which instead disproved them. Then you attempt to backpedal by discrediting your own link.
This has to be a first for boards.ie. Thanks. I got a good laugh out of that.

Blueshoe

Blueshoe wrote: »

Why do we want them in Ireland?

Our youth unemployment is 13%. Get that close to zero before we bring in other countries problems

Given the chronic shortage of qualified tradesmen, childcare workers, teachers and so many others, I'd wonder why exactly that 13% is unemployed. It's inexcusable with these shortages. Maybe those particular Irish people are just lazy, ambition-lacking layabouts and it's entirely irrelevant how many immigrants there are? (except that they can scapegoat them, of course)

MarkY91

magma69 wrote: »

The "what about our own homeless" crowd generally don't give a monkey's about our homeless and do **** all to help the homeless. It's about bashing asylum seekers.

Just like those that who claim to care about equality for lgbt and women when criticising Muslim countries but that mentality disappears when it comes to supporting women's and lgbt rights in the West.

This forum is just endless thinly veiled threads about the same few topics.

Just answer the damn question....what about our own homeless?

lola85

MarkY91 wrote: »

Just answer the damn question....what about our own homeless?

What about them?

There is approx 150 homeless in ireland who have all sort of supports if they want them.

MarkY91

lola85 wrote: »

What about them?

There is approx 150 homeless in ireland who have all sort of supports if they want them.

So they're choosing to sleep in a cardboard box as opposed to getting a free hotel room, food and allowance and eventually a free home?

......right.