Slow play is killing golf

DuckSlice

AdamD wrote: »

3 hrs 40 is not quick for a 3 ball. 4+ hour rounds of golf are incredibly off putting for somebody thinking of getting back into the game

Just make sure you are out early if you don't want to be out there for 4 hours and only play a two-ball. otherwise you will be on the course for up to 4/4.5 hours.

also if you are getting back into the game you don't have to play 18 all the time. 9 holes are always an option if stuck for time.

slingerz

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

It is in our club were the average 3 ball would be 4 hrs.

yea a 3ball on a saturday/sunday at ours would be doing well to get around in 4 hours

Dtoffee

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg


Personally I am happy to go out and spend 4 / 4.5 hours in a fourball with good company and a small side bet for bragging rights. Its my time out and I want to enjoy it without feeling I'm on a deadline and must get around quicker.

Golf was introduced to me as a game with etiquette and good manners, slow play was always there and you accepted that not everyone could walk at the same pace. I admire the older golfers who still make the effort to go out and play, they are the ones who kept the club going and who have invested their time and money over decades, without them there would be no club .... they have my respect and I see no benefit in running them off the course (as I aspire to being them one day).

prawnsambo

Dtoffee wrote: »

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg

The Irish chap (who won it) putting one handed whilst holding his bag was brilliant. Just looked so nonchalant.

Hoboo

Dtoffee wrote: »

Is this the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFLF3G-ebg


Personally I am happy to go out and spend 4 / 4.5 hours in a fourball with good company and a small side bet for bragging rights. Its my time out and I want to enjoy it without feeling I'm on a deadline and must get around quicker.

Golf was introduced to me as a game with etiquette and good manners, slow play was always there and you accepted that not everyone could walk at the same pace. I admire the older golfers who still make the effort to go out and play, they are the ones who kept the club going and who have invested their time and money over decades, without them there would be no club .... they have my respect and I see no benefit in running them off the course (as I aspire to being them one day).

Exactly. It's just a form of road rage. You're in my way, you're delaying me, get out of my way.

If you're waiting to take a shot on each hole then slow down, let the field determine the pace, you're not going anywhere so no point getting wound up. And if you do, it's not slow play that's killing your score, it's your attitude.

mike12

For pace of play isn't really how quick the round is it's how the flow of the round is.

I have had 4 hour rounds that felt like torture waiting on every shot and 4 hour rounds that have flown by.

It can often be as simple as players hanging around a green or leaving bags the wrong side so we are on the fairway waiting to play.
Or the sheep, 4 guys all walk together go to player A's ball watch him hit go to player Bs ball watch him hit rather than everyone head to their own ball and get ready to play.

They maybe keeping up but they are delaying the players behind them playing shots.

Russman

Hoboo wrote: »

Exactly. It's just a form of road rage. You're in my way, you're delaying me, get out of my way.

If you're waiting to take a shot on each hole then slow down, let the field determine the pace, you're not going anywhere so no point getting wound up. And if you do, it's not slow play that's killing your score, it's your attitude.

No, its not a form of road rage. Just because someone wants to be as slow as they like, all the other players shouldn't just have to suck it up because that's just the way it is.
Letting the field determine the pace is essentially letting the slowest players determine the pace.
No one is sensibly advocating what often gets termed "running" around the golf course, but there should absolutely be an acceptable pace for a round of golf without annoying both the speed merchants and the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want" brigade. I'd suggest, and I'm being pretty generous here I think, that under 4 hours should be attainable on most golf courses that we'd play. In a lot of cases I'd even go with well under 4 hours.

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

For pace of play isn't really how quick the round is it's how the flow of the round is.

I have had 4 hour rounds that felt like torture waiting on every shot and 4 hour rounds that have flown by.

It can often be as simple as players hanging around a green or leaving bags the wrong side so we are on the fairway waiting to play.
Or the sheep, 4 guys all walk together go to player A's ball watch him hit go to player Bs ball watch him hit rather than everyone head to their own ball and get ready to play.

They maybe keeping up but they are delaying the players behind them playing shots.

Definitely agree with this. It certainly doesn't take anything extreme to keep the pace moving. Its the little things like leaving bags the wrong side, marking cards on the green and basically not being ready when its your turn that all add up. I'd even suggest that "ready golf", which is great and I love it, isn't always necessary to keep things moving. For sure it helps but there are plenty of even simpler things if someone isn't a fan.

dan_ep82

For me its the really obvious time killers.

Lads late to tee off, early to tee off is another most don't talk about.

Having a chat on the tee box.

Fishing or looking in bushes for golf balls that dont belong to them.

+5 minutes looking for a golf ball.

The rest I can deal with. It's the really obvious delays, where the guys know they shouldn't be doing it but **** everyone else anyhow, that get me.

4hrs is acceptable on most courses for me, bigger tougher courses I'd allow for 4.5 on busy days. I can get around my own in a two ball in just over two hours but I dont expect it on a Sunday medal and think anyone who does is being unreasonable.

Hoboo

Russman wrote: »

No, its not a form of road rage. Just because someone wants to be as slow as they like, all the other players shouldn't just have to suck it up because that's just the way it is.
Letting the field determine the pace is essentially letting the slowest players determine the pace.
No one is sensibly advocating what often gets termed "running" around the golf course, but there should absolutely be an acceptable pace for a round of golf without annoying both the speed merchants and the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want" brigade. I'd suggest, and I'm being pretty generous here I think, that under 4 hours should be attainable on most golf courses that we'd play. In a lot of cases I'd even go with well under 4 hours.

I'm not advocating people taking the piss, I'm making allowances for older members and beginners, and those who play at a decent pace albeit slower than the guy who's wife has him on the leash and clock.

It is a form of road rage, as you said people shouldn't be getting annoyed, it stems from entitlement and ownership, not getting their own way and a lack of control. They'd sooner get angry, do some sugarbowling, and blow their round (and then blame everyone else for their childish indiscipline).

LuckyGent88

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

koheim

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

But his group played the round in 3 hours and 29 minutes, that is far from slow. To time each shot individually makes absolutely no sense, you need more time on difficult shots.
No slow play this week, problem is when the field is too big, with 160 players there is not room to move

GreeBo

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Some lad timed Bryson in Atlanta.

Bryson DeChambeau average shot times at East Lake.

Drives: 31.58 seconds
Approaches: 43.57 seconds
50 yards and under: 46.89 seconds
Putts: 1 minute, 21 seconds

Players are generally expected to hit within 40 seconds.

For how much of that 1:21 putting time were the others waiting for him though?

I could take 4 mins to hit my shot, but 3.5 of that are standing beside my ball while my partners play...is that slow?

AdamD

Bryson is slow, its bloody obvious when you watch him. People making excuses for him is exactly why there's slow play, if you don't see a problem with it you're probably slow yourself.

GreeBo

AdamD wrote: »

Bryson is slow, its bloody obvious when you watch him. People making excuses for him is exactly why there's slow play, if you don't see a problem with it you're probably slow yourself.

If he takes 50 second on every shot but can play a round of golf in 2.5 hours on his own, then he is not slow.

He hits 70 shots in a round, if he takes 2 minutes every shot then thats still only 2 hours 20 minutes...professional rounds are up at 5 hours, so whats happening for the other 2 hours 40 minutes?
If its taking someone nearly 3 hours to just walk a golf course they need to hurry the hell up.

Speeding up the already fastest bit doesnt buy you anything, you need to make the slowest bit faster.

This is why everyone who knows what slow golf actually means talks about things like "being ready to play", "leaving your stuff in the correct location", "ready golf" and rarely talks about the guy who takes a minute to actually hit the ball. Sure it can be annoying, but if 40s of that minute are happening while someone else is hitting, who cares?

AdamD

GreeBo wrote: »

If he takes 50 second on every shot but can play a round of golf in 2.5 hours on his own, then he is not slow.

He hits 70 shots in a round, if he takes 2 minutes every shot then thats still only 2 hours 20 minutes...professional rounds are up at 5 hours, so whats happening for the other 2 hours 40 minutes?
If its taking someone nearly 3 hours to just walk a golf course they need to hurry the hell up.

Speeding up the already fastest bit doesnt buy you anything, you need to make the slowest bit faster.

This is why everyone who knows what slow golf actually means talks about things like "being ready to play", "leaving your stuff in the correct location", "ready golf" and rarely talks about the guy who takes a minute to actually hit the ball. Sure it can be annoying, but if 40s of that minute are happening while someone else is hitting, who cares?

Brooks Koepka has made it pretty clear that those 40 seconds aren't happening when someone else is hitting and that's a major part of the issue.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

For how much of that 1:21 putting time were the others waiting for him though?

I could take 4 mins to hit my shot, but 3.5 of that are standing beside my ball while my partners play...is that slow?

I presume that fella began the timer when Bryson's 40 second allowance would have begun. Otherwise it would be pointless. And his results proved what most of us know anyway without ever actually timing him: that Bryson is slow. Anyone who draws any other conclusion has their head in the sand.

From my experience, fellas that are slow in hitting the shots are also normally* slow around the golf course.



*before anyone takes me up on that, I said normally, not always. And just from my experience.

GreeBo

AdamD wrote: »

Brooks Koepka has made it pretty clear that those 40 seconds aren't happening when someone else is hitting and that's a major part of the issue.

And Bryson has made it clear that its other who are doing the 2.5 hours of walking and he ends up waiting for them...

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

And Bryson has made it clear that its other who are doing the 2.5 hours of walking and he ends up waiting for them...

So Bryson is NOT slow, is it?

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

I presume that fella began the timer when Bryson's 40 second allowance would have begun. Otherwise it would be pointless. And his results proved what most of us know anyway without ever actually timing him: that Bryson is slow. Anyone who draws any other conclusion has their head in the sand.

You are missing my point though.
Time spent hitting the ball is a fraction of the overall round time, even if you are taking 1 minute per shot.
It's far better to speed up the slow bit (the non hitting bit) than to shave 10 seconds off the hitting time.

If Byron goes from 60s/shot to 30s/shot you save a whopping 35 minutes per round.
It's still taking them over 4 hours to play...so why not tackle that?



/btw I'm being Devils Advocate here, but I do think he has a point.
No point in taking 10s /shot and then sauntering down the fairway.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

You are missing my point though.
Time spent hitting the ball is a fraction of the overall round time, even if you are taking 1 minute per shot.
It's far better to speed up the slow bit (the non hitting bit) than to shave 10 seconds off the hitting time.

If Byron goes from 60s/shot to 30s/shot you save a whopping 35 minutes per round.
It's still taking them over 4 hours to play...so why not tackle that?

/btw I'm being Devils Advocate here, but I do think he has a point.
No point in taking 10s /shot and then sauntering down the fairway.

I can see your logic up to a point, but I'd guess that broadly speaking, most of the guys walk at a fairly similar pace to each other. So, (and I know it might be a bit of a stretch) if its their shot routines that differentiate the fast from the slow, surely that's the part to tackle ?
Bryson is more or less saying that 40s isn't enough FOR HIM to hit his shot - well, I'm sorry Bryson, tough sh1t, learn to hit it quicker or to hit it without all your mathematical equations.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I can see your logic up to a point, but I'd guess that broadly speaking, most of the guys walk at a fairly similar pace to each other. So, (and I know it might be a bit of a stretch) if its their shot routines that differentiate the fast from the slow, surely that's the part to tackle ?
Bryson is more or less saying that 40s isn't enough FOR HIM to hit his shot - well, I'm sorry Bryson, tough sh1t, learn to hit it quicker or to hit it without all your mathematical equations.

In the interview i saw he was adamant that the pace is anything but similar between players

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

In the interview i saw he was adamant that the pace is anything but similar between players

He was also saying he's at a disadvantage because he's often last to hit, so he can't get be getting his numbers while the others are hitting. TBH, I think he's full of it. From the numbers quoted above by someone its his putting is the biggest issue.

I know its all hypothetical as the tour have absolutely no intention of doing anything about it, but its far easier for them to regulate the time taken over a shot than the speed a player walks at. I also think a certain amount of common sense is allowed with the timings, AFAIK the players time doesn't start till he's at his ball, ie it might be his turn but his ball is 60 yards ahead of the player who has just played, I don't think he's timed until he's at his ball. Open to correction though.

Its far from just Bryson though, its fairly widespread - there's a famous video on Youtube of Andrew Loupe taking a massive amount of time over a 100yd shot. Maybe with Koepka and Rory and a few others making waves something might happen, but reading the Commissioner's statement I wouldn't bank on it.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

He was also saying he's at a disadvantage because he's often last to hit, so he can't get be getting his numbers while the others are hitting. TBH, I think he's full of it. From the numbers quoted above by someone its his putting is the biggest issue.

I know its all hypothetical as the tour have absolutely no intention of doing anything about it, but its far easier for them to regulate the time taken over a shot than the speed a player walks at. I also think a certain amount of common sense is allowed with the timings, AFAIK the players time doesn't start till he's at his ball, ie it might be his turn but his ball is 60 yards ahead of the player who has just played, I don't think he's timed until he's at his ball. Open to correction though.

Its far from just Bryson though, its fairly widespread - there's a famous video on Youtube of Andrew Loupe taking a massive amount of time over a 100yd shot. Maybe with Koepka and Rory and a few others making waves something might happen, but reading the Commissioner's statement I wouldn't bank on it.

But if speeding up time over the ball doesnt significantly speed up the time it takes to play....whats the point?

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

But if speeding up time over the ball doesnt significantly speed up the time it takes to play....whats the point?

Honestly I think a lot of it is optics and perception, to a certain degree. Absolutely a Rory or a Koepka or Justin Thomas will be pi$$ed off waiting while their playing partner takes forever over a shot. They may not be out of place on the course but, you know yourself, as someone mentioned earlier, a 4hr round can seem totally fine with no waiting, and another 4hr round can be interminable for whatever reason, players with elaborate routines, looking for yardages etc etc. I don't think the absolute bottom line number of X hrs is necessarily the goal.
On this side of the pond we don't like to see a JB Holmes take 2 mins over a shot but, from reading some of the US sites, they don't seem to care so much over there.

joebloggs32

One thing that could speed them up is to give them the GPS. They work out the yardage in the end anyway so that might shave a few seconds of their deliberations. I doubt it would make caddies redundant as they still will be clubbing them and considering wind speed/!direction and temperature.
I watched Tyrrell Hatton's caddy pacing out a second shot on the 13 at lahinch as he was offline. It was probably about 80 yards to the pin. He walked there and back. He got it spot on as hatton stitched it. But couldn't that trek back and forth been done by a GPS instead.

Kingswood Rover

joebloggs32 wrote: »

One thing that could speed them up is to give them the GPS. They work out the yardage in the end anyway so that might shave a few seconds of their deliberations. I doubt it would make caddies redundant as they still will be clubbing them and considering wind speed/!direction and temperature.
I watched Tyrrell Hatton's caddy pacing out a second shot on the 13 at lahinch as he was offline. It was probably about 80 yards to the pin. He walked there and back. He got it spot on as hatton stitched it. But couldn't that trek back and forth been done by a GPS instead.

Yep a bit mad in this day and age that they are not allowed measuring equipment

The_Kew_Tour

Played a round yesterday that started at 15.05 and finished at 20.18. We were only a 2 ball. Ridiculous that people in front ruin it for so many others

rickis tache

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Played a round yesterday that started at 15.05 and finished at 20.18. We were only a 2 ball. Ridiculous that people in front ruin it for so many others

Why didn't you let them play through.?
I'll get my coat.

slave1

So walking up to the first tee in Waterford Castle yesterday afternoon in blistering sunshine and heat, 4ball, we'd never played there before.
Sign said a 4ball time is 4hrs 15minutes, we had a bit of waiting before tee shots from the groups in front through the front 9 then most groups came in.
We picked up the pace and finished in 3hrs 45min, a full half hour ahead of the 4hrs 15minutes, why even have that on the first tee, it's like telling people it's perfectly fine to play that slow.
Just don't get it, oh and we played Faithlegg that morning in 3hrs 50min, walked both courses.
On Friday we played Mount Juliet in 4hrs 45mins and were held up by the group in front from the 4th, they refused to let us through and created a huge tailback on the course