The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

snotboogie wrote: »

Once you reach a certain critical mass you can compete, plenty of countries with under 10 million can consistently compete with nations with around 100 million. The issue in GAA is that the counties with the critical mass to compete with Dublin either have a huge portion of their population who won't play GAA (Antrim, Down and Derry) or where football is a minority sport (Cork, Galway and Limerick). Kildade and Meath should provide some hope going forward.

I would say football is the majority sport in Galway.

gormdubhgorm

snotboogie wrote: »

Once you reach a certain critical mass you can compete, plenty of countries with under 10 million can consistently compete with nations with around 100 million. The issue in GAA is that the counties with the critical mass to compete with Dublin either have a huge portion of their population who won't play GAA (Antrim, Down and Derry) or where football is a minority sport (Cork, Galway and Limerick). Kildade and Meath should provide some hope going forward.

Football has great tradition in Galway though club politics seem to go against them at intercounty level.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't see Bastic being like Fenton with any amount of training.
Do you see how fast Fenton is for a start - much lighter on his feet, Bastic not the same type of player at all never will be.

The point is often made about McCauley who is probably the most relevant to your argument - that because he is unorthodox he is more likely to cause trouble for backs.
You could argue he would not be as good with training.

Plus have you noticed that the silky skills of Bernard Brogan (played great in Omagh) was dropped completely for EOG on the bench v Mayo the last day?

The only logical reason is that Gavin wanted an awkward lump on the bench v Mayo not a Brogan type player.

Plus you should have mentioned Jack McCaffery, He used to do a lot of weight training - but tailed it back because he felt it was slowing him down.

If you look at Vinny Murohy his game suffered because of too much bulk - was far better lighter less muscle.

What Dublin do is tailor training individually to players strengths like Jack Mc.
There is no point in trying to get the likes of Bastic to do skills training not his strength.
I assume other counties have cottoned on to this and it is not a 'one size fits all' training that you seem to advocate?

If bastick was getting the professional coaching fenton got throughout his youth he would be a much imporved player, unquestionably.
He doesnt have to be an identical player to fenton to make a relevant comparison and that is just disingenuous.

As for mccauley being unorthodox... If that is the case then sack all the coaches and you will have 26 unorthodox players to 'surprise' the opposition with...

Re mccaffrey. At this point the coaching has already gone in. Fine tuning his weight training program to take advantage of his pace is not the same thing at all - that happens in the intercounty setup. We are talking about his technique being developed from 12 up. Im sure you already know this. It is clear you are more interested in trying to stifle the points with poor comparisons etc than discussing the point

BonnieSituation

bruschi wrote: »

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

Your relative neutrality and the calling out of bullshít is appreciated Bruschi.

Brian Howard is a workhorse now? My God where do these lads come from?

RoyalCelt

odyssey06 wrote: »

The central budget doesn't just magically appear out of nowhere.
Has its size got nothing to do with the number of fans Dublin bring to the game - both to Croke Park and on TV?

It seems to be entirely reasonable, after investing serious money in redeveloping a stadium in the capital city, to have games there and look for big attendances. How could the GAA have paid off Croke Park without those Dublin fans? Not a chance.

No way there'd be enough fans & money floating around in last 15 years for pay for the redevelopment of Croke Park, bailing out Páirc Uí Chaoimh, co-funding stadium work around the country and a 25,000 Dublin stadium (which was scuppered by the dysfunctional property market in Dublin and NAMA).
If Dublin hadn't been NAMA'd, and had built a stadium on new site, you can be sure that's where they'd be playing their games and that's where the gate money would be going.

While it's true about large Dublin crowds at the leinster championship helping to pay off Croker as yourself why there were huge crowds. You'd have a leinster final with 60k Dubs and 20k from Laois. Or 30k from Kildare and 50k from Dublin. You'd have a quarter final with 25k from Meath and 55k Dublin. Leinster final between meath an louth about 25k from each.

The crowds were huge in Leinster both from Dublin and other counties because it was competitive. So it wasn't just Dublin funding it, it was the teams who competed with Dublin and made it a spectacle. Those 20k+ crowds from the likes of meath, laois, Kildare, Westmeath etc have dropped to 1-5k attending matches in Croker vs Dublin. That's a huge loss in revenue from outside Dublin. The 50-60k Dublin fans who used to attend leinster matches has dropped to 20-35k depending on the fixture and the stage.

Basically massive drops and loss of revenue all round. Leinster GAA would be far richer now if they had invested heavily in other counties not just Dublin and kept some semblance of a spectacle.

It would also have helped that before Dublin became an unstoppable juggernaut they wouldn't have every close match gifted to them by the officials. Meath 2007, Kildare 2011, Wexford 2011 spring to mind. If Dublin had of won Leinster in 05, 06, 08, 09, 12, 13 it wouldn't have seemed so bad. Instead they have won every year bar 10.

BonnieSituation

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If bastick was getting the professional coaching fenton got throughout his youth he would be a much imporved player, unquestionably.
He doesnt have to be an identical player to fenton to make a relevant comparison and that is just disingenuous.

As for mccauley being unorthodox... If that is the case then sack all the coaches and you will have 26 unorthodox players to 'surprise' the opposition with...

Re mccaffrey. At this point the coaching has already gone in. Fine tuning his weight training program to take advantage of his pace is not the same thing at all - that happens in the intercounty setup. We are talking about his technique being developed from 12 up. Im sure you already know this. It is clear you are more interested in trying to stifle the points with poor comparisons etc than discussing the point

Bastick was a fine player and great foil for a green Fenton. That was a wonderful partnership.

BonnieSituation

RoyalCelt wrote: »

While it's true about large Dublin crowds at the leinster championship helping to pay off Croker as yourself why there were huge crowds. You'd have a leinster final with 60k Dubs and 20k from Laois. Or 30k from Kildare and 50k from Dublin. You'd have a quarter final with 25k from Meath and 55k Dublin. Leinster final between meath an louth about 25k from each.

The crowds were huge in Leinster both from Dublin and other counties because it was competitive. So it wasn't just Dublin funding it, it was the teams who competed with Dublin and made it a spectacle. Those 20k+ crowds from the likes of meath, laois, Kildare, Westmeath etc have dropped to 1-5k attending matches in Croker vs Dublin. That's a huge loss in revenue from outside Dublin. The 50-60k Dublin fans who used to attend leinster matches has dropped to 20-35k depending on the fixture and the stage.

Basically massive drops and loss of revenue all round. Leinster GAA would be far richer now if they had invested heavily in other counties not just Dublin and kept some semblance of a spectacle.

It would also have helped that before Dublin became an unstoppable juggernaut they wouldn't have every close match gifted to them by the officials. Meath 2007, Kildare 2011, Wexford 2011 spring to mind. If Dublin had of won Leinster in 05, 06, 08, 09, 12, 13 it wouldn't have seemed so bad. Instead they have won every year bar 10.

What about Meath in 2010?

blanch152

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I agree with you there if Dublin had the same funding and lesser players/management structure to chose from - you would ironically hear less about the funding. As they would be less successful.

But as the players/management structure are top notch and really successful they are not praised and the funding becomes the focus!

That dichotomy amuses me no end.

But you mix funding with top notch players and management - the others are really playing catch up especially if they do not have thier own house in order.

All three of these can change for Dubin -

1) Dublin given less funding gradually

2) Dublin getting a head the ball manager who falls out with players

3) Players who are not that goof=d/players who fall out with management

Funding issue should be easily sorted, when Gavin steps down Dubs fans will be worried, when the old guard of players go Dubs fans will be worried.

The funding issue has already been addressed. Why do you think McKenna and his followers use historical figures from 2005?

Over the last two to three years, the funding for Dublin has decreased while the funding to the rest of the country has increased. The East Leinster initiative is one example of this.

On a per capita basis, Dublin are not the best funded.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

If bastick was getting the professional coaching fenton got throughout his youth he would be a much imporved player, unquestionably.
He doesnt have to be an identical player to fenton to make a relevant comparison and that is just disingenuous.

As for mccauley being unorthodox... If that is the case then sack all the coaches and you will have 26 unorthodox players to 'surprise' the opposition with...

Re mccaffrey. At this point the coaching has already gone in. Fine tuning his weight training program to take advantage of his pace is not the same thing at all - that happens in the intercounty setup. We are talking about his technique being developed from 12 up. Im sure you already know this. It is clear you are more interested in trying to stifle the points with poor comparisons etc than discussing the point

I think you are talking through yer hat re -Bastic there has to be something to work with in the first place.

Having 26 unorthodox players would be stupid - Gavin seems happy now with MDM. And picks EOG ahead of Brogan. Brogan does not even make the squad v Mayo.
Managers like a mixture of players - personally I don't rate EOG - but Gavin sees the use in him.
You seem to think that all this training will produce loads of skillful players like Magic.
The players have to be there in the first place allied to a plan and a structure.
Some counties have the plan - no players
Some counties have a structure - no plan
Some counties have none of the three.

Dublin have all three.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I agree if anything the money should have been lashed out to Westmeath when they were on that high, Laois, Offaly, and Kildare as well when they had thier runs in the 00's
All four to greater/lesser have suffered since.
Easy saying it in hindsight now though.

It's not easy to say it in hindsight, providing one county with a huge number of professional coaches while they already have other advantages was a crazy decision then and it has caused huge issues.

Dots1982

We will go on with the present structure until everyone even the majority of Dubs are bored with it and the sport essentially fails because it can’t attract a crowd.

A sport involving only Ireland should have max 10-12 elite teams covering the entire country.

32 teams is ****ing madness.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It wasn't just a once off Iceland did it again in subsequent games.

This is how they did set up the plan - it was not an overnight success.

Some intercounty teams have no excuses in Ireland

What subsequent games? They got a comprehensive hiding in the next game from france and were out... The england win is their big claim to fame. Ours is beating italy in the group in 1994 - 25 years ago... Therein lies my point. You seem to think that the other top teams should be content with getting a big win once every 25 odd years. You werent happy when dublin were falling just short for all irelands, yet think everyone else should be happy with far less... It is the equivalent of offering us a nice shiny penny while you take all that troublesome paper money...
Who do you think you are fooling?

gormdubhgorm

blanch152 wrote: »

The funding issue has already been addressed. Why do you think McKenna and his followers use historical figures from 2005?

Over the last two to three years, the funding for Dublin has decreased while the funding to the rest of the country has increased. The East Leinster initiative is one example of this.

On a per capita basis, Dublin are not the best funded.

Yeah there was guy on the GAA hour explaining that Dublin were actually underfunded so I would well believe it.

Strumms

Gachla wrote: »

The huge number of professional coaches gets highlighted but the highly paid officials who oversee the system which has increased standards accross all age and levels in Dublin GAA don't get as much attention. Here's some of the job roles:

Strategic Program Manager

Games Development Project Coordinator

Regional Development Manager

High Performance Manager

Dublin GAA pay millions in wages every year but of course all of this has no impact in the huge increase in standards in Dublin GAA. :rolleyes:

How many people live in Dublin ? How many play GAA ? It’s only appropriate that Dublin have their house in order to facilitate as best they can.. the experience of participating in the sport.

gormdubhgorm

Dots1982 wrote: »

We will go on with the present structure until everyone even the majority of Dubs are bored with it and the sport essentially fails because it can’t attract a crowd.

A sport involving only Ireland should have max 10-12 elite teams.

32 teams is ****ing madness.

Yeah, but whose lifetime will that happen in by the time Clifford has retired as Kerry manager winning the coveted 7 in a row?

clevtrev

it may have been said before but the Dublin team is made up of a core of players that have been in position now since 2011-13.

If you look at the 2011 team there are still 12 in the current squad and the 2013 team has 17 still in the squad. This is a golden age for Dublin but it is not based on a massive squad of players. There area few new additions to the squad over the last few years but the success of the squad has helped to keep the team together and playing for longer. Players involved in unsuccessful teams find it more difficult to keep playing into their later years.

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

blanch152

RoyalCelt wrote: »

While it's true about large Dublin crowds at the leinster championship helping to pay off Croker as yourself why there were huge crowds. You'd have a leinster final with 60k Dubs and 20k from Laois. Or 30k from Kildare and 50k from Dublin. You'd have a quarter final with 25k from Meath and 55k Dublin. Leinster final between meath an louth about 25k from each.

The crowds were huge in Leinster both from Dublin and other counties because it was competitive. So it wasn't just Dublin funding it, it was the teams who competed with Dublin and made it a spectacle. Those 20k+ crowds from the likes of meath, laois, Kildare, Westmeath etc have dropped to 1-5k attending matches in Croker vs Dublin. That's a huge loss in revenue from outside Dublin. The 50-60k Dublin fans who used to attend leinster matches has dropped to 20-35k depending on the fixture and the stage.

Basically massive drops and loss of revenue all round. Leinster GAA would be far richer now if they had invested heavily in other counties not just Dublin and kept some semblance of a spectacle.

It would also have helped that before Dublin became an unstoppable juggernaut they wouldn't have every close match gifted to them by the officials. Meath 2007, Kildare 2011, Wexford 2011 spring to mind. If Dublin had of won Leinster in 05, 06, 08, 09, 12, 13 it wouldn't have seemed so bad. Instead they have won every year bar 10.

Attendances in 1981 and 1982 were far worse. The Kerry team of the time were hugely professional, only needed to win three games to win some of their All-Irelands, teams like Clare gave up and conceded 9-21 which you wouldn't even see in a hurling game nowadays. There was no competition from Connacht or Ulster. Interest in gaelic football hit an all-time low in the summer of 1982 as Kerry went for a five-in-a-row. Despite the hundreds of thousands who say they were there to see the Seamus Darby push to win the game, it was the lowest final attendance since the second world war, and that includes years that half of Croke Park was closed for renovations.

Why would you be surprised to see a repeat of those attendance patterns when Dublin are going for a five-in-a-row?

The only precedent for what Dublin are doing is that Kerry team.

blanch152

clevtrev wrote: »

it may have been said before but the Dublin team is made up of a core of players that have been in position now since 2011-13.

If you look at the 2011 team there are still 12 in the current squad and the 2013 team has 17 still in the squad. This is a golden age for Dublin but it is not based on a massive squad of players. There area few new additions to the squad over the last few years but the success of the squad has helped to keep the team together and playing for longer. Players involved in unsuccessful teams find it more difficult to keep playing into their later years.

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

Please don't bring those facts into this debate. You will upset some of the posters.

rebel girl 15

You have to have “professional” coaches to teach a child to use both feet and hands - mind absolutely boggles!

That’s just common sense - I’m not a professional coach but any session I do will always make players work on both sides. Not hard to put high coaching standards in place in counties for very little cost - problem is some coaches have lost the amateur ethos even at club level coaching, which is madness.

Posted this before but there was a fantastic initiative with hurling this year where the vast majority of counties were split and a lot more young fellas exposed to inter county games. Cork was split in four as far as I know - but it’s been the only competition to have all 32 counties playing in it.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What subsequent games? They got a comprehensive hiding in the next game from france and were out... The england win is their big claim to fame. Ours is beating italy in the group in 1994 - 25 years ago... Therein lies my point. You seem to think that the other top teams should be content with getting a big win once every 25 odd years. You werent happy when dublin were falling just short for all irelands, yet think everyone else should be happy with far less... It is the equivalent of offering us a nice shiny penny while you take all that troublesome paper money...
Who do you think you are fooling?

I mean in current qualification games they are doing aliright - all on 9 points each in the Euro's quantification (beat Turkey in on of the games).

https://ie.soccerway.com/international/europe/european-championship-qualification/2020/qualifying-round/group-h/g12194/

If anyone is doing the fooling it is yourself you think that training would turn Bastic into Fenton!
Your own county f**ked up it's chances of success by having a heave against its manager - Rochford
Internal politics a disaster.

You need the players, management a plan, a structure before any funding.
What do Mayo have Cora Staunton?

Gachla

blanch152 wrote: »

The funding issue has already been addressed. Why do you think McKenna and his followers use historical figures from 2005?

Over the last two to three years, the funding for Dublin has decreased while the funding to the rest of the country has increased. The East Leinster initiative is one example of this.

On a per capita basis, Dublin are not the best funded.

It has not been addressed. Dublin were receiving a hugely disportionate amount of funding for 14 years, they are still receiving 1.3 million+. Their funding went up last year!
You can't just ignore these 14 years. During that time, Dublin GAA saw staggering improvement across the board. They won 80 titles from 2005 till now while only winning 20 in the 14 years before then. This increased success has had a major effect on the increased sponsorship money Dublin receive. They now get well over a million in sponsorship every year.

Strumms

clevtrev wrote: »

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

Schhhhhhh, that sort of talk isn’t in keeping with the...’Dublin are winning shîtloads but we want to yay instead no fair’ narrative that is in abundance... I hear that Kerry team were given a bus, to transport them to the game, they also got to practice, with real footballs !!! :eek: who might I ask is paying for all that ? :eek:

LoughNeagh2017

It doesn't effect me much anyway, I wouldn't watch Derry even if they were winning, paying to watch men who are healthier and who have better lives than me doesn't sit right with me anymore but that's a discussion for another forum. I use my money on things that are going to benefit me which isn't much actually.

gormdubhgorm

clevtrev wrote: »

it may have been said before but the Dublin team is made up of a core of players that have been in position now since 2011-13.

If you look at the 2011 team there are still 12 in the current squad and the 2013 team has 17 still in the squad. This is a golden age for Dublin but it is not based on a massive squad of players. There area few new additions to the squad over the last few years but the success of the squad has helped to keep the team together and playing for longer. Players involved in unsuccessful teams find it more difficult to keep playing into their later years.

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

Sure they are not having it a mod was adamant that the average age of the Dublin team being down = virtually guaranteed Dublin success - two or three players each year says s/he.

Gachla

Strumms wrote: »

How many people live in Dublin ? How many play GAA ? It’s only appropriate that Dublin have their house in order to facilitate as best they can.. the experience of participating in the sport.

1.3 million, the rest of the country have the same problems Dublin face, why should Dublin get treated differently?

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

The funding issue has already been addressed. Why do you think McKenna and his followers use historical figures from 2005?

Over the last two to three years, the funding for Dublin has decreased while the funding to the rest of the country has increased. The East Leinster initiative is one example of this.

On a per capita basis, Dublin are not the best funded.

Dublin have by far the worst participation on population per registered club member. If the aim is to have increased participation per capita, then it has failed. If we are basing it on percentage increase of members, then it is a success.

So what do we base the figure on? Per registered club member or per population? Because if it is per population, it's a failure and the figure looks low. If it is per club member the figure is high and a success. You can't have it both ways.

Gachla

clevtrev wrote: »

it may have been said before but the Dublin team is made up of a core of players that have been in position now since 2011-13.

If you look at the 2011 team there are still 12 in the current squad and the 2013 team has 17 still in the squad. This is a golden age for Dublin but it is not based on a massive squad of players. There area few new additions to the squad over the last few years but the success of the squad has helped to keep the team together and playing for longer. Players involved in unsuccessful teams find it more difficult to keep playing into their later years.

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

How can you explain the increase of titles for Dublin across the board? Is it just a golden age for Dublin in ladies football, men's hurling, club football and hurling, underage football and hurling at the exact same time as a golden age for their men's senior footballers and at the same time that they got a huge increase in finance but none of it is connected?

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

We will go on with the present structure until everyone even the majority of Dubs are bored with it and the sport essentially fails because it can’t attract a crowd.

A sport involving only Ireland should have max 10-12 elite teams covering the entire country.

32 teams is ****ing madness.

So splitting Dublin to create more teams would be silly then.

Gachla

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

You have to have “professional” coaches to teach a child to use both feet and hands - mind absolutely boggles!

That’s just common sense - I’m not a professional coach but any session I do will always make players work on both sides. Not hard to put high coaching standards in place in counties for very little cost - problem is some coaches have lost the amateur ethos even at club level coaching, which is madness.

Posted this before but there was a fantastic initiative with hurling this year where the vast majority of counties were split and a lot more young fellas exposed to inter county games. Cork was split in four as far as I know - but it’s been the only competition to have all 32 counties playing in it.

Are all primary school teachers giving GAA lessons to youngsters now? Do you think it would help to have a huge list of professional coaches to go into primary school to coach Gaelic Games?

BonnieSituation

Gachla wrote: »

1.3 million, the rest of the country have the same problems Dublin face, why should Dublin get treated differently?

What do you suggest?

What do YOU want? What are your solutions?

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I mean in current qualification games they are doing aliright - all on 9 points each in the Euro's quantification (beat Turkey in on of the games).

https://ie.soccerway.com/international/europe/european-championship-qualification/2020/qualifying-round/group-h/g12194/

If anyone is doing the fooling it is yourself you think that training would turn Bastic into Fenton!
Your own county f**ked up it's chances of success by having a heave against its manager - Rochford
Internal politics a disaster.

You need the players, management a plan, a structure before any funding.
What do Mayo have Cora Staunton?

I never said you could turn bastick into fenton. In fact I specifically stated that was not the case. What I did say was without the level of professional coaching available to him throughout his developmental years, fenton becomes more like bastick. That is to say, still a good fielder of the ball, a capable midfield player, mobile and quick, but lower technique levels, not as good on both feet or as comfortable on the ball. He probably gives the ball away more.

Or maybe he falls away from football for a while and never makes the county setup...

Re my own county - the only relevant point here is that they dont have that level of professional coaching made available to them - the same as every other county outside dublin. Anything else is beside the point. As for rochford, unless he has a time machine and 40 professional coaches willing to go with him back to 2000 and work for free, he has no relevance in this discussion.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

Dublin have by far the worst participation on population per registered club member. If the aim is to have increased participation per capita, then it has failed. If we are basing it on percentage increase of members, then it is a success.

So what do we base the figure on? Per registered club member or per population? Because if it is per population, it's a failure and the figure looks low. If it is per club member the figure is high and a success. You can't have it both ways.

I think it has failed because it has not made real encroachments in the soccer and rugby heartlands.
Plus I do not see enough young fellas who's parents are from outside Ireland in Dublin teams/clubs?
Where have all the Pawel's, Li Wei's and Babangida's gone?

Dublin have just maintained thier areas v soccer and rugby in the capital not taken them on.

Gachla

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What do you suggest?

What do YOU want? What are your solutions?

I have suggestions but why put them forward to people who can't even admit there's a problem despite huge evidence to show that there is?

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I never said you could turn bastick into fenton. In fact I specifically stated that was not the case. What I did say was without the level of professional coaching available to him throughout his developmental years, fenton becomes more like bastick. That is to say, still a good fielder of the ball, a capable midfield player, mobile and quick, but lower technique levels, not as good on both feet or as comfortable on the ball. He probably gives the ball away more.

Or maybe he falls away from football for a while and never makes the county setup...

Re my own county - the only relevant point here is that they dont have that level of professional coaching made available to them - the same as every other county outside dublin. Anything else is beside the point. As for rochford, unless he has a time machine and 40 professional coaches willing to go with him back to 2000 and work for free, he has no relevance in this discussion.

It is relevant everything has to knit - management players they all have to work as one - Mayo are a prime example of getting it wrong - dumped Rochford out.
There is no way Fenton would have ended up like Bastic if he had less of this mythical training you are on about either.

The fella is a natural athlete, he would be great in any code.
Cavanagh mentioned on TSG that he was flying on the treadmill full pelt AFTER the Dubs won an AI in Dubai at an all-stars tour.
You cannot manufacture natural ability.

odyssey06

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What subsequent games? They got a comprehensive hiding in the next game from france and were out... The england win is their big claim to fame. Ours is beating italy in the group in 1994 - 25 years ago... Therein lies my point. You seem to think that the other top teams should be content with getting a big win once every 25 odd years. You werent happy when dublin were falling just short for all irelands, yet think everyone else should be happy with far less... It is the equivalent of offering us a nice shiny penny while you take all that troublesome paper money...
Who do you think you are fooling?

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

MayoAreMagic

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

You have to have “professional” coaches to teach a child to use both feet and hands - mind absolutely boggles!

That’s just common sense - I’m not a professional coach but any session I do will always make players work on both sides. Not hard to put high coaching standards in place in counties for very little cost - problem is some coaches have lost the amateur ethos even at club level coaching, which is madness.

Posted this before but there was a fantastic initiative with hurling this year where the vast majority of counties were split and a lot more young fellas exposed to inter county games. Cork was split in four as far as I know - but it’s been the only competition to have all 32 counties playing in it.

First off, why is the word professional in quotes? They are professional coaches, paid for their expertise and employed for that specific position...

Secondly, it is easy enough to tell kids to use both sides. Getting them to do it to the point where they are as good as what the dublin younger players are now is not so easy though. It takes prolonged effort from people with expertise in the field. If coaching was as easy as you suggest then there would be no one sided footballers and everyone would be able to kick scores from outside the 45 every time... If many of the absolute elite players in the country cant do that, then clearly it isnt that simple.

RoyalCelt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What about Meath in 2010?

Funny the one game the ref wasn't in favour of dublin back then you lose. We all know the GAA wanted Dublin to keep winning so it's no surprise the refs by and large were in your pocket. Dublin vs Meath 2005 the ref was a joke too.

gormdubhgorm

odyssey06 wrote: »

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

In fairness Cork has hurling, rugby soccer

But looking at this list and excluding dual counties/occupied counties Kildare and Meath seem like the biggest underachievers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Funny the one game the ref wasn't in favour of dublin back then you lose. We all know the GAA wanted Dublin to keep winning so it's no surprise the refs by and large were in your pocket. Dublin vs Meath 2005 the ref was a joke too.

A lot of those five goals should have been disallowed for one reason or another I seem to remember! :eek:

bruschi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think it has failed because it has not made real encroachments in the soccer and rugby heartlands.
Plus I do not see enough young fellas who's parents are from outside Ireland in Dublin teams/clubs?
Where have all the Pawel's, Li Wei's and Babangida's gone?

Dublin have just maintained thier areas v soccer and rugby in the capital not taken them on.

Don't think I'd agree fully. Whilst they may not have made full inroads into other traditional areas, they had done excellent work and have increased participation levels. Dublin will never have 100% participation levels, it's just not conceivable, which is why a rate per population is not a correct way to measure things. Clubs have grown massively in Dublin and retention rates are up too. That's success in my eyes.

MayoAreMagic

odyssey06 wrote: »

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

As was stated earlier, there is a critical mass at play there. If you have a population up in the millions, you will be better equipped to compete against a nation 10 times your size than if you have 100,000 and you comlete with a pick of 1 million... Croatia, although they have never actually won anything, have a high level. The point you are missing is croatia are more an exception rather than the rule.

Dubs tend to do this a lot. They pick an exception to the rule and say well what about these lads, thet are going well at x are they not? But obviously they are an exception that is bucking the trend and everyone cant be the exception can they?

As for population discrepancies, simple - offer lower populated counties the choice to amalgamate. If they choose not to then they are only effecting themselves. Split dublin in 2 then and you instantly have a much inproved championship, with no requirment for massive cuts to funding in dublin..

RoyalCelt

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A lot of those five goals should have been disallowed for one reason or another I seem to remember! :eek:

I think if the disallowed goals were removed meath still would have won. Difference with Dublin was they were close games and the GAA clearly wanted Dublin to win.

yermanhimself

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)


The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)


This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

Don't think I'd agree fully. Whilst they may not have made full inroads into other traditional areas, they had done excellent work and have increased participation levels. Dublin will never have 100% participation levels, it's just not conceivable, which is why a rate per population is not a correct way to measure things. Clubs have grown massively in Dublin and retention rates are up too. That's success in my eyes.

I would like to see a more homogeneous mix of players though, not many exotic names on most pitches.
That will mean that the GAA in Dublin is in a healthy state and will have people of all backgrounds.
It is probably easier to do down the country where the GAA club is the focal point - not many other places to go!

odyssey06

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In fairness Cork has hurling, rugby soccer
But looking at this list and excluding dual counties/occupied counties Kildare and Meath seem like the biggest underachievers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

Well that's the point. The raw population figures are only half the story. Dublin has soccer, rugby too.

Gachla

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)


The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)


This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Money has made a huge difference. Here's a quote from a GDO who was invloved from when this all began:

"I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching.

I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

Also, do you have any explanation as to why Dublin increased titles across the board, winning 80 titles since 2005?

gormdubhgorm

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)


The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)


This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Never thought of that breakdown before frightening when you think if it how so few clubs backbone the Dubs.

When I think of it put a great manager into an underachieving county what happens it not only achieves what it should - it over achieves.

Paidi - Westmeath
Micko - Kildare, Laois, Wicklow
O'Mahony - Leitrim
Fitzy - Wexford
Harte - Tyrone
Gavin - Dublin
Boylan - Meath
Heffo - Dublin
O'Rourke - Monaghan
Cody - Kilkenny
Pete McGrath - Fermanagh

odyssey06

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

As was stated earlier, there is a critical mass at play there. If you have a population up in the millions, you will be better equipped to compete against a nation 10 times your size than if you have 100,000 and you comlete with a pick of 1 million... Croatia, although they have never actually won anything, have a high level. The point you are missing is croatia are more an exception rather than the rule.
Dubs tend to do this a lot. They pick an exception to the rule and say well what about these lads, thet are going well at x are they not? But obviously they are an exception that is bucking the trend and everyone cant be the exception can they?

Croatia would have, if they only have to worry about one of the major soccer powers (by population) at a time - which would be the Dublin scenario. Ditto for Denmark, Sweden, Uruguay. In any given tournament, one of those teams is capable of beating one of the major powers.

There are so many exceptions in GAA they are the rule. If population was all that mattered Kerry would not have more All Irelands than Dublin and Cork combined. Yet Wicklow with the same population have none.
Whatever the critical mass is in the GAA, 100,000 versus 1 million is not it.

MayoAreMagic

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)


The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)


This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Hmm. Obviously not a fair point. Intercounty managers arent the ones who develop young players.

The paid professional coaches are the guys who developed those lads. That is pretty obvious..

If you dont think so then why dont you put forward a motion through your club to give all the money back to the gaa and the irish government? Because keeping the money and then crowing about it not being down to money, doesnt really hold much water...

Donnielighto

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are only codding yourself you still watch the games and still hunt for your free tickets - you are just letting others subsdise you.
A real protest would be not watching any gaelic games.

It is this your form of half nearly, maybe, sorta, kinda going or 'half' interested?
You either are or you are not.

I don't hunt and didn't say I did, I was offered one for last Saturday and tried to pass it on first. I like the sport but not the admin side and won't support it financially which is their bottom line and focus.

Anyway this is moving off topic.