The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Boom__Boom

ooter wrote: »

De jure means a state of affairs that is in accordance with law (i.e. that is officially sanctioned).
Surely that means croke park is a neutral venue?

De facto means a state of affairs that is true in fact, but that is not officially sanctioned. In contrast, de jure means a state of affairs that is in accordance with law.

It's clear that the Rouse is saying that while Croke Park has been called a neutral venue for stuff like the Super 8 "neutral" round of games, the truth is that everyone recognises that it is a home venue for Dublin due to the fact that it's where they play their home league and home championship games. The author's intent is 100% the opposite of what you are saying.

The fact that the rest of the article you quoted goes on to discuss the subject of home advantage in sport is further evidence of where Rpuse is coming from.

There's also the fact that there are no rules/regulations about venues in the GAA rule-book beyond the fact a venue must meet the safety criteria.

Lost Ormond

ArielAtom wrote: »

Now, you know that is incorrect. If a team does not play in their home ground ie Parnell Park, they are by default playing in a neutral ground. An example of that would be Leinster Rugby playing in the Aviva, that would be a neutral ground as their home ground is the RDS. It really is that simple.

Leinster only occasionally play in the Aviva. Of their regular home games every season ie the 3 group games in Europe and 10/11 home in the league they play 2 of them in the Aviva.
Dublins footballers play zero games in Parnell Park. It hasnt been home ground for the footballers in years.

Boom__Boom

ArielAtom wrote: »

Now, you know that is incorrect. If a team does not play in their home ground ie Parnell Park, they are by default playing in a neutral ground. An example of that would be Leinster Rugby playing in the Aviva, that would be a neutral ground as their home ground is the RDS. It really is that simple.

If Croke Park is a neutral venue, how do Dublin manage to play all their home league and home championship games there?

If Kerry don't play in Austin Stack Park but play in Fitzgerald Stadium (which Kerry GAA don't actually own) are they by default playing in neutral venue? No they are not.

The reason I mention this is that there was a proposal put to Congress back in the 30s or 40s that Fitzgerald Stadium should be where the All-Ireland was played every year. By your logic you are saying that if that proposal had passed that you would regard Fitzgerald Stadium as a neutral venue. Get up the yard.

ArielAtom

Festive Life wrote: »

Leinster only occasionally play in the Aviva. Of their regular home games every season ie the 3 group games in Europe and 10/11 home in the league they play 2 of them in the Aviva.
Dublins footballers play zero games in Parnell Park. It hasnt been home ground for the footballers in years.

https://www.dublingaa.ie/

Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the address for Dublin GAA. I'm pretty sure it does not say Croke Park.

Lost Ormond

ArielAtom wrote: »

https://www.dublingaa.ie/

Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the address for Dublin GAA. I'm pretty sure it does not say Croke Park.

That doesnt mean the senior gaelic football team home ground is Parnell Park. They dont train there, they dont play there in the league or championship.
It isnt there home ground.

ArielAtom

Festive Life wrote: »

That doesnt mean the senior gaelic football team home ground is Parnell Park. They dont train there, they dont play there in the league or championship.
It isnt there home ground.

They do, it's Parnell Park.

ooter

mitchelsontour wrote: »

Lads if you don't play outside your county bounds then you have a home venue.

Apparently if Dublin play outside Dublin in an "away" game it's not an away game if it's in a neutral venue, surely if Dublin play a "home" game in a neutral venue it's not a home game?

Enquiring

The same myths that have been busted are getting an airing again I see. Let's go through them.

EICVD wrote: »

A first all Ireland appearance in 20 years or so & you wouldn’t go because you know you’d lose, if that’s not a defeatist attitude! What happened to the Meath don’t fear the Dubs times, looks like we’ve strangled the competitiveness out of ye, not that I’m complaining

The same as in women's football. They don't even play the Leinster championship anymore. How come both Dublin men's and women's senior footballers managed to make such a change to their fortunes right after receiving millions of euros?

ArielAtom wrote: »

The work like every other team. They train. Its up to every team to be at an appropriate level of fitness. That is achievable by everyone. People really ned to stop making excuses regarding a teams preparation and attempting to equate that to funding. For the 500th time, the funding is GDO/GPO funding, targeted at schoolchildren from 5-12 years of age, that is a fact. Some posters like to use the term busted, their arguments were busted long ago, but the have what is referred in horse racing terms as staying power. There needs to be a review of structures, finance was dealt with regarding the above back in 2017. Sponsorship is a difficult one, not sure any county that works hard to get sponsorship will be willing to share, ask Cork or Kerry would they pool sponsorship. The hope of a split is just that, a hope to hang onto. There are some really genuine GAA people on here that have a vested inters in developing the structures and their are the posters that have no other interest but stopping Dublin.

You even busted your own myth about the funding being for primary school kids. You linked to an actual development officer who stated that they didn't only work in primary schools but they worked in secondary schools also but most importantly in the clubs they're hired to work in. Why do you keep saying the money is for primary school kids when you know for a fact that it isn't?

Then we have the Croke Park isn't Dublin's home ground myth. It is the Dublin senior footballers home ground. When's the last time they played a championship game in Parnell Park? They played every single championship game there from 2006-2016.

Strumms wrote: »

So should Dublin play at Parnell park maybe.....capacity 13,500 vs 80,000. When opposition fans get all excited about that, they sure won’t be excited when they try get a ticket, and can’t.

Dublin should build their own 60 thousand plus home ground ? Who pays for it ? You’d have the same dribblers then complaining if the Dubs were given funding to do that... so damned if they do, damned if the don’t... ultimately too...That would mean about 7 or 8 games tops in Croker a year, a proper white elephant.

Dublin have only played 2 away games in the championship since 2006 and 4 other games in neutral venues. For all these 6 matches, Dublin have brought around 10,000 supporters or less. When Dublin footballers aren't playing in their home ground of Croke Park, they don't attend in big numbers.

ooter

2004 was the last time the Dublin senior footballers played at home in the championship.

Strumms

Enquiring wrote: »

The same myths that have been busted are getting an airing again I see. Let's go through them.



The same as in women's football. They don't even play the Leinster championship anymore. How come both Dublin men's and women's senior footballers managed to make such a change to their fortunes right after receiving millions of euros?



You even busted your own myth about the funding being for primary school kids. You linked to an actual development officer who stated that they didn't only work in primary schools but they worked in secondary schools also but most importantly in the clubs they're hired to work in. Why do you keep saying the money is for primary school kids when you know for a fact that it isn't?

Then we have the Croke Park isn't Dublin's home ground myth. It is the Dublin senior footballers home ground. When's the last time they played a championship game in Parnell Park? They played every single championship game there from 2006-2016.



Dublin have only played 2 away games in the championship since 2006 and 4 other games in neutral venues. For all these 6 matches, Dublin have brought around 10,000 supporters or less. When Dublin footballers aren't playing in their home groundd of Croke Park, they don't attend in big numbers.

Brought 10000 or less.. yes, simply because they didn’t have any more of an allocation or the ability to procure more...

ArielAtom

Festive Life wrote: »

That doesnt mean the senior gaelic football team home ground is Parnell Park. They dont train there, they dont play there in the league or championship.
It isnt there home ground.

It is the home of Dublin GAA, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but thems be the facts.

flasher0030

ArielAtom wrote: »

It is the home of Dublin GAA, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but thems be the facts.

Ariel. Please don't. You're embarrassing yourself now.
It doesn't matter what is written on the bottom of a page, or what is on a website. Everybody knows Croke Park is the ground that Dublin plays half of it's league games in and all of it's Championship matches in (bar the few when Super 8s was briefly in play). The topic of the thread is the dominance of Dublin GAA team. The fact that they play their matches in Croke Park has been raised as a factor in that dominance. Whether Parnell Park or Croke Park is quoted at the bottom of a website has zero relevance. There is no point in shouting like an excited schoolboy who thinks they have come up with some technicality to muddy the waters.

Enquiring

Strumms wrote: »

Brought 10000 or less.. yes, simply because they didn’t have any more of an allocation or the ability to procure more...

To their only away matches in 14 years. There was nothing stopping more attending their neutral games. 10,000 is pretty pathetic given the population of Dublin.

ArielAtom

flasher0030 wrote: »

Ariel. Please don't. You're embarrassing yourself now.
It doesn't matter what is written on the bottom of a page, or what is on a website. Everybody knows Croke Park is the ground that Dublin plays half of it's league games in and all of it's Championship matches in (bar the few when Super 8s was briefly in play). The topic of the thread is the dominance of Dublin GAA team. The fact that they play their matches in Croke Park has been raised as a factor in that dominance. Whether Parnell Park or Croke Park is quoted at the bottom of a website has zero relevance. There is no point in shouting like an excited schoolboy who thinks they have come up with some technicality to muddy the waters.

Sorry to bust your bubble buddy, but the facts state that the home of Dublin GAA is Parnell Park.

flasher0030

ArielAtom wrote: »

Sorry to bust your bubble buddy, but the facts state that the home of Dublin GAA is Parnell Park.

Wow. You can lay it out on a plate for people, but some folks just can't grasp it.

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

Sorry to bust your bubble buddy, but the facts state that the home of Dublin GAA is Parnell Park.

The home ground is officially parnell park but they have all the benefits of home advantage from playing in croke park.

Here is a Wikipedia entry in case this is an alien concept to you:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_advantage

ArielAtom

flasher0030 wrote: »

Wow. You can lay it out on a plate for people, but some folks just can't grasp it.

Totally agree with you, glad you’ve seen the light.

JeffKenna

ArielAtom wrote: »

Sorry to bust your bubble buddy, but the facts state that the home of Dublin GAA is Parnell Park.

How many league and championship games have Dublin played at home in the last ten years? 2 or 3 maybe? I don't think any team in sporting history have overcome those kind of odds, really adds to their success.

mitchelsontour

ooter wrote: »

Apparently if Dublin play outside Dublin in an "away" game it's not an away game if it's in a neutral venue, surely if Dublin play a "home" game in a neutral venue it's not a home game?

Home game is played within county bounds - does not matter what stadium.

Away game played in the opponents county.

Neutral game played outside of both participating counties county bounds.

ArielAtom

JeffKenna wrote: »

How many league and championship games have Dublin played at home in the last ten years? 2 or 3 maybe? I don't think any team in sporting history have overcome those kind of odds, really adds to their success.

If you count the hurlers it’s a few. But the footballers have played the majority at neutral venues. So I guess you are correct it adds to their achievements.

Lost Ormond

ArielAtom wrote: »

If you count the hurlers it’s a few. But the footballers have played the majority at neutral venues. So I guess you are correct it adds to their achievements.

When all your home league games have all been played In Croke Park since 2011 its clear its your home ground

Enquiring

mitchelsontour wrote: »

Home game is played within county bounds - does not matter what stadium.

Away game played in the opponents county.

Neutral game played outside of both participating counties county bounds.

It really is as simple as that. I don't get where the confusion lies.

It's like the argument that millions of euros received above everyone else is not an advantage and hasn't had an impact on the complete transformation of Dublin GAA.

I don't get it. Are we supposed to play along with this? It would be funny only that this nonsense is repeated in real life. The Dublin county board chairman has actually come out with statements like this, we've seen it with former Dublin managers and players. They can't actually believe it, can they?

ArielAtom

Festive Life wrote: »

When all your home league games have all been played In Croke Park since 2011 its clear its your home ground

No, facts are that Parnell Park is Dublin GAAs home.

Lost Ormond

ArielAtom wrote: »

No, facts are that Parnell Park is Dublin GAAs home.

Its not the senior county football teams though which is the point people have been making. when you never play there and its not your home ground

Enquiring

Festive Life wrote: »

When all your home league games have all been played In Croke Park since 2011 its clear its your home ground

I was thinking it would be like Kerry football supporters saying that their home ground is in Tralee. Championship games played in Killarney are neutral games. Tipperary never play a home game in Thurles. Monaghan play at a neutral venue in Clones.....................................

ArielAtom

Festive Life wrote: »

Its not the senior county football teams though which is the point people have been making. when you never play there and its not your home ground

You are ignoring facts. That’s what I’m stating. I’ve no problem with you believing if it makes you happy.

ooter

Quick question, if ballymun play kilmacud in the Dublin championship in Parnell park who is the home team?

mitchelsontour

ooter wrote: »

Quick question, if ballymun play kilmacud in the Dublin championship in Parnell park who is the home team?

That's like asking if Strand Road play Boherbee in the Sportsfield who is at home

Boom__Boom

Tombo2001 wrote: »

As mentioned, there are 300 games development officers of which 54 are in Dublin. Thats 18% in Dublin.

The population of all Ireland is 6.8mn, of which county Dublin is 1.23mn, or 18%.

Cant get much fairer than that.

This post sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole over the last week or so because I distinctly recalled hearing a reference recently that Dublin had 76 coaching staff. I think it was on radio or on one of the GAA podcasts but I couldn't track it down. I did manage to find the article in the paper from 2018 where the Dublin GAA chairman had said that Dublin had 70 coaches. The fact that there was 70 coaches 3 years ago leads me to believe that the figure of 76 is good odds to be fairly accurate.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-express-concern-at-cut-in-funding-for-coaching-36558793.html

I was also curious to see whether the 300 games development officers figure was accurate because this seemed a bit higher than what I would have guessed.

This page linked below say " the Association employs over 300 Games Development Personnel nationwide" and based on what I've found that looks to be a bit of an over-estimate, especially when looking at the number of actual coaches who work with a ball or a hurl in a field.

Games Development Personnel are deployed at National, Provincial and County level. Since 2009 Games Development Managers (GDMs) have been deployed in all Counties. Each County has introduced a variable structure of Games Development Administrators (GDA) and Games Promotion Officers (GPO), depending on the county’s requirements.

Basically there are 32 GDMs (one in every county) and then GDAs and GPOs under the GDMs who work at the coaching coal-face [going into schools/going into clubs/arranging Cul Camp/arrranging coaching courses/arranging blitzes/doing bits with development squads] The GDM role from what I could figure is pretty much an office based adminstration role and doesn't go any actual coaching but is the boss of all the GDAs/GPOs in a county. The GDA title and the GPO title is pretty much interchangeable as some counties seem to call them one thing and some the other and some have both, but in all of them it's pretty much all about coaching at the coal-face.

https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/administrators/games-development-personnel

Things are also complicated a bit by the fact that there are some provincial coaching roles and this seems to vary a bit between the 4 provinces. For Munster there was 2 Provincial Games Managers (one for football and one for hurling) Connacht seem to have one Provincial Games Manager [Cathal Cregg] For Leinster there seems to be 2 Provincial Games Managers (north and south)
However Ulster GAA seem to have 25 coaches employed at provincial level. Some of these seem to be involved in the administration side of things, but most of these 25 seem to be on the ground coaches, that are basically seconded to work with/for various county boards. It looks like some of these 25 are funded from a Stormont scheme and are more school based as opposed to club based but I'd say a good 20 of these are coaching youngsters. There's also some number of coaches involved in Gaelfast but from what I saw these extra coaches are employed by Antrim GAA [I did find a thing that said before Gaelfast there was 3 coaches for the entire county, so I think the figure of 10 makes sense] Basically at provincial level, Ulster seem to be the only province that have employees at provincial level who actually coach with the others being more administrators.

At a county level I started off by looking at the Kerry GAA website and it matched what I kinda knew already - 1 Games Manager and 8 GDAs. In my ignorance at this stage I thought it would be a case of simply going into each counties website, throwing the number of GPOs/GDAs into a spreadsheet and adding them up to see what the numbers looked like nationwide. Poor fool me.

I did find the number for some counties this way, for some I googled "county name GPO" or "county name GDA" or "county name coach" Some I found in the annual reports for counties. [I should probably have taken note of the euro amounts spent on coacing in the finanical reports for the various counties but I only thought of this midway through] For some counties I couldn't find anything. For others the up-to-dateness of the numbers seemed a bit questionable.

The following is my best estimate list of the number of actual coaches [it doesn't include the Games Development Managers] There are a number of caveats about this. A fair chunk of the information was from county websites and I'm not sure how up-to-date these are. For for the counties where I couldn't find anything if anyone has an idea let me know. I'll admit my searching wasn't the most thorough For some of the Ulster counties, I'm not sure whether the figures I found for the individual counties included the coaches thay are actually employed by the Ulster Council. If I had to guess I would say that the individual counties were including the coaches paid for by the Ulster Council in their totals. There is every possibility that these numbers aren't exact/up-to-date/are wrong. However I do think [even with 10 counties missing] they do give a good overall general sense of the number of coaches working in pitches around the country. I think there are possibly 300 games development personnel but about 40 of these would be administrators [county GDMs and provincial GDMs] so I would say a mimium of 260 coaches nationwide and probably a maximum of 300, with the most likely figure being around the 280 mark.

Dublin 76
Meath 21
Kildare 16
Wexford 11
Antrim 10
Galway 9
Tyrone 9
Donegal 8
Louth 8
Kerry 7
Cork 7
Cavan 7
Mayo 6
Wicklow 6
Monaghan 5
Tipperary 4
Roscommon 4
Longford 4
Waterford 3
Sligo 3
Offaly 3
Laois 3
Limerick ?
Clare ?
Leitrim ?
Derry ?
Down ?
Fermanagh ?
Armagh ?
Carlow ?
Kilkenny ?
Westmeath ?

Enquiring

Fair play to you Boom_Boom. Excellent work.

You have to remember that the defenders of the financial disparity are desperate to find any possible way of unearthing some form of justification for all this. They have to. If they don't, they'll have to face the reality that it's all a farce.

You've obviously shown the dishonesty of one of their arguments. What they want to do is pick the year with the lowest amount of coaches in Dublin and compare with the year with the highest amount everywhere else.

You have searched and got some recent figures. And they are quite low in most counties. Think what it was like throughout the noughties! Dublin were swimming in coaches while everyone else had below 6 with most having 3 or under.

Think about it. Dublin had professional coaches for nearly every club while everyone else didnt have much more than 1 coach per county!

tritium

Boom__Boom wrote: »

This post sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole over the last week or so because I distinctly recalled hearing a reference recently that Dublin had 76 coaching staff. I think it was on radio or on one of the GAA podcasts but I couldn't track it down. I did manage to find the article in the paper from 2018 where the Dublin GAA chairman had said that Dublin had 70 coaches. The fact that there was 70 coaches 3 years ago leads me to believe that the figure of 76 is good odds to be fairly accurate.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-express-concern-at-cut-in-funding-for-coaching-36558793.html

I was also curious to see whether the 300 games development officers figure was accurate because this seemed a bit higher than what I would have guessed.

This page linked below say " the Association employs over 300 Games Development Personnel nationwide" and based on what I've found that looks to be a bit of an over-estimate, especially when looking at the number of actual coaches who work with a ball or a hurl in a field.



Basically there are 32 GDMs (one in every county) and then GDAs and GPOs under the GDMs who work at the coaching coal-face [going into schools/going into clubs/arranging Cul Camp/arrranging coaching courses/arranging blitzes/doing bits with development squads] The GDM role from what I could figure is pretty much an office based adminstration role and doesn't go any actual coaching but is the boss of all the GDAs/GPOs in a county. The GDA title and the GPO title is pretty much interchangeable as some counties seem to call them one thing and some the other and some have both, but in all of them it's pretty much all about coaching at the coal-face.

https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/administrators/games-development-personnel

Things are also complicated a bit by the fact that there are some provincial coaching roles and this seems to vary a bit between the 4 provinces. For Munster there was 2 Provincial Games Managers (one for football and one for hurling) Connacht seem to have one Provincial Games Manager [Cathal Cregg] For Leinster there seems to be 2 Provincial Games Managers (north and south)
However Ulster GAA seem to have 25 coaches employed at provincial level. Some of these seem to be involved in the administration side of things, but most of these 25 seem to be on the ground coaches, that are basically seconded to work with/for various county boards. It looks like some of these 25 are funded from a Stormont scheme and are more school based as opposed to club based but I'd say a good 20 of these are coaching youngsters. There's also some number of coaches involved in Gaelfast but from what I saw these extra coaches are employed by Antrim GAA [I did find a thing that said before Gaelfast there was 3 coaches for the entire county, so I think the figure of 10 makes sense] Basically at provincial level, Ulster seem to be the only province that have employees at provincial level who actually coach with the others being more administrators.

At a county level I started off by looking at the Kerry GAA website and it matched what I kinda knew already - 1 Games Manager and 8 GDAs. In my ignorance at this stage I thought it would be a case of simply going into each counties website, throwing the number of GPOs/GDAs into a spreadsheet and adding them up to see what the numbers looked like nationwide. Poor fool me.

I did find the number for some counties this way, for some I googled "county name GPO" or "county name GDA" or "county name coach" Some I found in the annual reports for counties. [I should probably have taken note of the euro amounts spent on coacing in the finanical reports for the various counties but I only thought of this midway through] For some counties I couldn't find anything. For others the up-to-dateness of the numbers seemed a bit questionable.

The following is my best estimate list of the number of actual coaches [it doesn't include the Games Development Managers] There are a number of caveats about this. A fair chunk of the information was from county websites and I'm not sure how up-to-date these are. For for the counties where I couldn't find anything if anyone has an idea let me know. I'll admit my searching wasn't the most thorough For some of the Ulster counties, I'm not sure whether the figures I found for the individual counties included the coaches thay are actually employed by the Ulster Council. If I had to guess I would say that the individual counties were including the coaches paid for by the Ulster Council in their totals. There is every possibility that these numbers aren't exact/up-to-date/are wrong. However I do think [even with 10 counties missing] they do give a good overall general sense of the number of coaches working in pitches around the country. I think there are possibly 300 games development personnel but about 40 of these would be administrators [county GDMs and provincial GDMs] so I would say a mimium of 260 coaches nationwide and probably a maximum of 300, with the most likely figure being around the 280 mark.

Dublin 76
Meath 21
Kildare 16
Wexford 11
Antrim 10
Galway 9
Tyrone 9
Donegal 8
Louth 8
Kerry 7
Cork 7
Cavan 7
Mayo 6
Wicklow 6
Monaghan 5
Tipperary 4
Roscommon 4
Longford 4
Waterford 3
Sligo 3
Offaly 3
Laois 3
Limerick ?
Clare ?
Leitrim ?
Derry ?
Down ?
Fermanagh ?
Armagh ?
Carlow ?
Kilkenny ?
Westmeath ?

You could have saved yourself some heartache if you’d started with the games development report to sports ireland that I quoted previously. It’s for 2015 so a little dated but it’s fair to say that all indicators are that any funding gap has narrowed since. For example the figure given for rest of Leinster is now 118 so a substantial increase in that spend.

https://learning.gaa.ie/sites/default/files/GDC_1.8_Appendix11_Games Development Annual Report 2015.pdf

This represents what the GAA spend on games development resources and reported by the GAA for the Irish sports council so it should be a pretty accurate representation and equally should exclude any resources funded from elsewhere. Unfortunately I can’t find a later report for this. The breakdown is as follows:

National 9
Dublin. 61
Leinster. 74
Munster. 34
Ulster. 67
Connacht. 86

This of course makes nonsense of the claim that the GAA funded a coach for almost every club in dublin as one poster has stated. County assignments are in there too. There are caveats, for example the Munster figure dropped by 10 from the previous year. It seems unlikely that the GAA dropped them off a cliff so I assume there’s some shuffling going on- given all the personell are named perhaps someone closer to Munster GAA can clarify. In addition the report puts a bit of a best face on things: Connachts very high figure doesn’t reflect the number of part time coaches for that province. Equally dublins figure doesn’t reflect that the clubs themselves are funding a large chunk of the spend, so the cost to the GAA is lower. The job titles are also a little inconsistent.

Within that dublin have 5-7 personell who are assigned at a regional level, which I understand to be the equivalent of the provincial level managers for the others (though I’m not convinced the provincial personell are purely administrative tbh). The total above is 331 I think and excluding the provincial personell etc that drops by up to 59 or so depending on what you think a person is doing in a role.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

You could have saved yourself some heartache if you’d started with the games development report to sports ireland that I quoted previously. It’s for 2015 so a little dated but it’s fair to say that all indicators are that any funding gap has narrowed since. For example the figure given for rest of Leinster is now 118 so a substantial increase in that spend.

https://learning.gaa.ie/sites/default/files/GDC_1.8_Appendix11_Games%20Development%20Annual%20Report%202015.pdf

This represents what the GAA spend on games development resources and reported by the GAA for the Irish sports council so it should be a pretty accurate representation and equally should exclude any resources funded from elsewhere. Unfortunately I can’t find a later report for this. The breakdown is as follows:

National 9
Dublin. 61
Leinster. 74
Munster. 34
Ulster. 67
Connacht. 86

This of course makes nonsense of the claim that the GAA funded a coach for almost every club in dublin as one poster has stated. County assignments are in there too. There are caveats, for example the Munster figure dropped by 10 from the previous year. It seems unlikely that the GAA dropped them off a cliff so I assume there’s some shuffling going on- given all the personell are named perhaps someone closer to Munster GAA can clarify. In addition the report puts a bit of a best face on things: Connachts very high figure doesn’t reflect the number of part time coaches for that province. Equally dublins figure doesn’t reflect that the clubs themselves are funding a large chunk of the spend, so the cost to the GAA is lower. The job titles are also a little inconsistent.

Within that dublin have 5-7 personell who are assigned at a regional level, which I understand to be the equivalent of the provincial level managers for the others (though I’m not convinced the provincial personell are purely administrative tbh). The total above is 331 I think and excluding the provincial personell etc that drops by up to 59 or so depending on what you think a person is doing in a role.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at this. Did you actually look at the list? It basically backs up everything you've been told but you have decided to make a very peculiar interpretation of what you read.

Boom_Boom just informed you that the coaches are called Games Promotion officer's or Games development administrators. Let's just take a few examples. Donegal have 3 full time coaches, Antrim have 3, Meath have 6, Kildare have 4, Kerry have 5, Cork have 6, Galway have 2 full time, same with Mayo.

You've been repeatedly told that every county had less than 6. You looked at a list telling you that every county had less than 6. Did you not believe what you were reading? You've also been told about administrative staff and the difference between them and coaches. And do you know what a third level coach is? You somehow managed to add 7 Dublin based third level coaches onto the rest of Leinster list.

Before we move onto the list for Dublin, I just want to see if you now understand what you read or is there any other confusion?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at this. Did you actually look at the list? It basically backs up everything you've been told but you have decided to make a very peculiar interpretation of what you read.

Boom_Boom just informed you that the coaches are called Games Promotion officer's or Games development administrators. Let's just take a few examples. Donegal have 3 full time coaches, Antrim have 3, Meath have 6, Kildare have 4, Kerry have 5, Cork have 6, Galway have 2 full time, same with Mayo.

You've been repeatedly told that every county had less than 6. You looked at a list telling you that every county had less than 6. Did you not believe what you were reading? You've also been told about administrative staff and the difference between them and coaches. And do you know what a third level coach is? You somehow managed to add 7 Dublin based third level coaches onto the rest of Leinster list.

Before we move onto the list for Dublin, I just want to see if you now understand what you read or is there any other confusion?

Ah it’s the poster who says the GAA funded a coach for almost every club in dublin

Not quite what that shows is it?

How many clubs in dublin?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Ah it’s the poster who says the GAA funded a coach for almost every club in dublin

Not quite what that shows is it?

How many clubs in dublin?

I take it from this post that you understand that your post backs up that every county had very few coaches, between 1 and 6 while Dublin had far more?

I'll be moving onto the Dublin list, don't worry.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

I take it from this post that you understand that your post backs up that every county had very few coaches, between 1 and 6 while Dublin had far more?

I'll be moving onto the Dublin list, don't worry.

Per capita what’s the breakdown? How many coaches per capita for Leinster compared to dublin? How does that look when we up the Leinster number to the current 118?

What’s the breakdown when you allocate the percentage funded by the clubs themselves? We’re these the numbers you were using when you we’re going on about a coach for every club?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Per capita what’s the breakdown? How many coaches per capita for Leinster compared to dublin? How does that look when we up the Leinster number to the current 118?

What’s the breakdown when you allocate the percentage funded by the clubs themselves? We’re these the numbers you were using when you we’re going on about a coach for every club?

Not for the first time, you have a load of questions but you failed to answer any put to you. You already know that the 118 figure is flawed. You're desperately scrambling here as you know the figures you provided go completely against your argument.

Let's get some answers from you before the rest of your post is dismantled.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Not for the first time, you have a load of questions but you failed to answer any put to you. You already know that the 118 figure is flawed. You're desperately scrambling here as you know the figures you provided go completely against your argument.

Let's get some answers from you before the rest of your post is dismantled.

As expected you deflect from the pure guff you’ve posted. Are you saying the GAA have lied in their report to the sports council- that would be fraud and you might want to take it up with the guards, should be easy to prove since they’ve named the individuals in each role.

Are you disputing the numbers they’ve given for Leinster there? Again the individuals are named. I can verify that my own club has the correct name against it, I’m sure others can do the same, so that’s 50% of a resource accounted for from the GAA funds

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

As expected you deflect from the pure guff you’ve posted. Are you saying the GAA have lied in their report to the sports council- that would be fraud and you might want to take it up with the guards, should be easy to prove since they’ve named the individuals in each role.

Are you disputing the numbers they’ve given for Leinster there? Again the individuals are named. I can verify that my own club has the correct name against it, I’m sure others can do the same, so that’s 50% of a resource accounted for from the GAA funds

Oh dear. Where did I say the GAA has lied? I've said you couldn't understand what you were reading and it appears that this still is the case.

The numbers are correct and it proves what you've been told. Every county in Ireland had under 6 coaches except for Dublin. Most had 2, 3 or 4.

You included third level coaches, 7 of which are in Dublin in the figures for other counties. Do you understand what a third level coach is? Do you now realise what you've been told is correct, every county had very few coaches apart from Dublin?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Oh dear. Where did I say the GAA has lied? I've said you couldn't understand what you were reading and it appears that this still is the case.

The numbers are correct and it proves what you've been told. Every county in Ireland had under 6 coaches except for Dublin. Most had 2, 3 or 4.

You included third level coaches, 7 of which are in Dublin in the figures for other counties. Do you understand what a third level coach is? Do you now realise what you've been told is correct, every county had very few coaches apart from Dublin?

Wait, THATS your complaint? After the bull**** you’ve been posting you’re complaining about the third level coaches? Even though I’ve made it very clear that the breakdown is also in the figures. But you accept the figures at least? So you accept you lied when you said almost every dublin club got a coach funded by the GAA for example? How many coaches should a county have? Dublin has a multiple of population on the others and the coaches are to develop the game in that population. The GAA paid effectively for half of the dublin coaches. How many should dublin have? I’ll make it easy with a scenario if a county with 150k has 6 coaches funded how many should a county with over a million have? Given they’re meant to develop the game in that population

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Wait, THATS your complaint? After the bull**** you’ve been posting you’re complaining about the third level coaches? Even though I’ve made it very clear that the breakdown is also in the figures. But you accept the figures at least? So you accept you lied when you said almost every dublin club got a coach funded by the GAA for example? How many coaches should a county have? Dublin has a multiple of population on the others and the coaches are to develop the game in that population. The GAA paid effectively for half of the dublin coaches. How many should dublin have? I’ll make it easy with a scenario if a county with 150k has 6 coaches funded how many should a county with over a million have? Given they’re meant to develop the game in that population

The question is do you accept the figures you've posted? Very few coaches in every county except Dublin. You had to try and throw in administrative staff and third level coaches from Dublin to try to make the numbers in someway respectable and even then that failed. At least now we've established as fact that there were 6 coaches and less available to everyone bar Dublin.

Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on to the Dublin allocation. This will be really illuminating so pay attention. On this link:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions

You can look up the first 3-4 divisions in hurling and football and tell me how many don't have access to a full time coach? Very few. This shows that the funding is being used for top level clubs, not reaching all areas of Dublin GAA as claimed.

You can look through the complete list of clubs if you'd like:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs

As you've pointed out, the coaches are hired by the clubs. They work for them so improving standards within the club is their main task. So let's have a look at the numbers in regards to this and we'll just use the report you linked.

There are about 200,000 players aged between 8 and 18 registered to a club in Ireland. For Dublin, I'm going to be generous and include numbers of participants from hurling and football even though players who play both are being counted twice. That's in and around 24,000 for registered players between 8 and 18 in Dublin. That's 12% of the total.

Of the 170 full time coaches, 54 of them are working for Dublin GAA. That's 31%. And remember, this is for a year where Dublin had lower than their usual number of coaches and also it's 2015, 13 years after the funding began. In the noughties, the gap would have been far bigger.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

The question is do you accept the figures you've posted? Very few coaches in every county except Dublin. You had to try and throw in administrative staff and third level coaches from Dublin to try to make the numbers in someway respectable and even then that failed. At least now we've established as fact that there were 6 coaches and less available to everyone bar Dublin.

Now that we've cleared that up, let's move on to the Dublin allocation. This will be really illuminating so pay attention. On this link:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions

You can look up the first 3-4 divisions in hurling and football and tell me how many don't have access to a full time coach? Very few. This shows that the funding is being used for top level clubs, not reaching all areas of Dublin GAA as claimed.

You can look through the complete list of clubs if you'd like:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs

As you've pointed out, the coaches are hired by the clubs. They work for them so improving standards within the club is their main task. So let's have a look at the numbers in regards to this and we'll just use the report you linked.

There are about 200,000 players aged between 8 and 18 registered to a club in Ireland. For Dublin, I'm going to be generous and include numbers of participants from hurling and football even though players who play both are being counted twice. That's in and around 24,000 for registered players between 8 and 18 in Dublin. That's 12% of the total.

Of the 170 full time coaches, 54 of them are working for Dublin GAA. That's 31%. And remember, this is for a year where Dublin had lower than their usual number of coaches and also it's 2015, 13 years after the funding began. In the noughties, the gap would have been far bigger.

Just so we’re entirely clear here what are you including in your 170 full time coaches figure? Are you for example treating two part time as a full time? Which roles as are you including?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Just so we’re entirely clear here what are you including in your 170 full time coaches figure? Are you for example treating two part time as a full time? Which roles as are you including?

I'm including full time coaches. I can't make it clearer than that.

It really is shocking the gap between Dublin and everywhere else. I've used them before but the difference between Dublin and Cork really shows this up as the scandal that it is. Cork with more clubs, players and a huge amount of territory to cover had 6 or less coaches while Dublin with less clubs, players and a smaller amount of territory got access to almost 9 times the amount of coaches.

Every county had to try their best with between 1 and 6 paid coaches. Why were Dublin provided with so many more coaches? Once again it shows how unbalanced things were placed in favour of Dublin. Let's not forget, the funding gap had closed by 2015. Dublin had well over a decade of even more of an imbalance than 2015.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

I'm including full time coaches. I can't make it clearer than that.

It really is shocking the gap between Dublin and everywhere else. I've used them before but the difference between Dublin and Cork really shows this up as the scandal that it is. Cork with more clubs, players and a huge amount of territory to cover had 6 or less coaches while Dublin with less clubs, players and a smaller amount of territory got access to almost 9 times the amount of coaches.

Every county had to try their best with between 1 and 6 paid coaches. Why were Dublin provided with so many more coaches? Once again it shows how unbalanced things were placed in favour of Dublin. Let's not forget, the funding gap had closed by 2015. Dublin had well over a decade of even more of an imbalance than 2015.

And the part time ones? And what job titles GPO? Gdo? Coach? Gda ? Etc

And how are you accounting for the 50% of each dublin coach paid for by the clubs themselves?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

And the part time ones?

And how are you accounting for the 50% of each dublin coach paid for by the clubs themselves?

The coaches from the Dublin only scheme? How are they supposed to be counted? In 2015, there were 54 of them.

As I've pointed out, all these coaches were positioned in clubs in the top 4 divisions of Dublin hurling and football. Not many clubs in Dublin didn't have access to a professional coach.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

The coaches from the Dublin only scheme? How are they supposed to be counted? In 2015, there were 54 of them.

As I've pointed out, all these coaches were positioned in clubs in the top 4 divisions of Dublin hurling and football. Not many clubs in Dublin didn't have access to a professional coach.

Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?

mitchelsontour

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

ArielAtom

tritium wrote: »

Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?

Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.

tritium

mitchelsontour wrote: »

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?

My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.

Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.

So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.

Lost Ormond

mitchelsontour wrote: »

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis

Lot more clubs like that nationwide.