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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*
Comments
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mitchelsontour wrote: »The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.
Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56
The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14
Lets just say that is a significant difference.
The Dublin GAA website lists far fewer clubs:
https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs0 -
Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.
Ah, your buddy is struggling badly so you tried to give him a hand. The statement was they have a professional coach for nearly every club. You can go through the list of clubs on the Dublin GAA website if you want?
It blows another myth wide open. The money has been used for clubs in the top divisions, not for lesser clubs. This is all about elite development, not the fictional tale that it's for primary school kids.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis
Lot more clubs like that nationwide.
Again, this was a Dublin only scheme. There was very much something stopping clubs from outside Dublin gaining access to it. They weren't allowed as it was Dublin only. Taxpayers provided millions upon millions of euros to fund this Dublin only scheme by the way.0 -
My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.
Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.
So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.
Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made0 -
Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?
Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.0 -
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mitchelsontour wrote: »Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.
We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.0 -
Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made
This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.0 -
Ya I checked that out but there was an info graph
https://twitter.com/GaelicGamesEuro/status/450647697557422082
so went with that just to avoid bias.0 -
We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.
Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No0 -
Except your argument is supported by untruths
Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED - You need to go through the list of clubs again. Nearly all clubs have access to a professional coach, especially in divisions 1-4.
the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED I never claimed that.
Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED I never claimed that.
dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED The development funding has led to 100 titles across Dublin GAA and it was 2002 when it started, this claim has been proved.
No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED I never claimed that
the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED Have you provided any proof to the contrary?
We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made
I've put my replies in bold for you there. It shows how desperate you are when you have to make things up.
Here are the claims I've made:
Dublin have had access to far more professional coaches than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Every other county had access to 6 or less coaches - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin received millions upon millions more in funding than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin had the coaching plan developed for them - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin receive far more in sponsorship than anyone else - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin weren't close to being in desperate need of funding compared with other counties - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin have had a professional coach for nearly every club - Proven beyond doubt.
Dublin have gained huge success off the millions of euro handed to them - Proven beyond doubt.
The money wasn't just for primary school kids - Proven beyond doubt.
The development money began in 2002 and it still is being paid every year - Proven beyond doubt
Dublin footballers have only played 2 away championship games since 2006 - Proven beyond doubt.
Members of the Dublin county board and employees of Dublin GAA admit to the massive difference the development funding has made - Proven beyond doubt.
Basically, any argument in defence of the funding disparity has been completely obliterated.0 -
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We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.
Every county including Dublin received funding from their provincial council. Every county received a similar amount in games development funding except Dublin. Every county had under 6 coaches while Dublin had close to one per club. We've been over all this. The figures show that Dublin were overfunded by a long way.0 -
This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.
I hope the irony is not lost on you when looking at the list of untruths from your buddy.0 -
mitchelsontour wrote: »Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No
Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.
To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so0 -
Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.
To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so
Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.
It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.0 -
Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.
It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.
Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this
Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too
It’s just inconvenient for the narriative you want to spin, like so many other facts. It’s a shame because it actually damages your argument with folks who genuinely want to have the conversation about ensuring counties have the opportunity to develop and who are happy to acknowledge that dublin benefited from support to help reverse years of neglect. Your choice though0 -
Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this
Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too
I've already said that the clubs pay for half the wages of the coach in the Dublin only scheme. The rest is paid by taxpayers, the GAA and the Leinster council. This adds up to more than 30 million since 2002.
If Dublin have around 90 clubs and around 75 coaches, that is nearly one per club. Definitely nearly one per club for all the clubs in the top divisions.
Dublin are way overfunded and have access to far more coaches to anyone else. From 2015, Dublin only had 12% of the total of registered players aged 8-18.0 -
So should Dublin play at Parnell park maybe.....capacity 13,500 vs 80,000. When opposition fans get all excited about that, they sure won’t be excited when they try get a ticket, and can’t.
Dublin should build their own 60 thousand plus home ground ? Who pays for it ? You’d have the same dribblers then complaining if the Dubs were given funding to do that... so damned if they do, damned if the don’t... ultimately too...That would mean about 7 or 8 games tops in Croker a year, a proper white elephant.
If Dublin want to build 60k stadium surely the GAA will fund it on their own.
This mistake was made by Government years ago.
The only good idea "Drumcondra Bertie" ever had was the National Stadium in West Dublin.
The GAA influence were allowed scupered this idea which for me was a big error.
Croke Park is unsustainable without concerts etc whic i have absolutely no problem with but it is just in the wrong place.
When vested interest have big influence in decisions ie will neever be right.
Dublin indeed do need a 40/50K capicity venue but there should be a National Stadium for bigger events for all national sports.
If it ever happens Croke park can be a wild-life santury.0 -
maestroamado wrote: »If Dublin want to build 60k stadium surely the GAA will fund it on their own.
This mistake was made by Government years ago.
The only good idea "Drumcondra Bertie" ever had was the National Stadium in West Dublin.
The GAA influence were allowed scupered this idea which for me was a big error.
Croke Park is unsustainable without concerts etc whic i have absolutely no problem with but it is just in the wrong place.
When vested interest have big influence in decisions ie will neever be right.
Dublin indeed do need a 40/50K capicity venue but there should be a National Stadium for bigger events for all national sports.
If it ever happens Croke park can be a wild-life santury.
You think Croke Park is in the wrong location being in Drumcondra, but would be right if it was in Blanchardstown?
What games would a national stadium serve Croke Park & the Aviva don't?0 -
Dick Turnip wrote: »You think Croke Park is in the wrong location being in Drumcondra, but would be right if it was in Blanchardstown?
What games would a national stadium serve Croke Park & the Aviva don't?
I know its in the wrong place for what it is being used for.
It would have being perfect for Dublin County location.
I think our proposed National Stadium was to be around Liiffey Valley, personally i would prefer abit farther out.
We should have one as i cannot think of a Country in EU that has not got one.
Our National Stadium is on SCR, not sure who uses it now.0 -
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40214039.html
Here’s the take from the Leinster Council chair on the idea of splitting Dublin. Great article and he makes so many good points.0 -
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https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40214039.html
Here’s the take from the Leinster Council chair on the idea of splitting Dublin. Great article and he makes so many good points.
What good points does he raise. He mentions that Dublin have advantages in terms of population and in terms of the finance they can raise.
And basically it's up to the chasing pack to raise their game. He doesn't mention the millions that Dublin received all those years ago to get them going on that success ladder. Money that is not provided to the other counties.
I don't see any substance in his comments.0 -
maestroamado wrote: »I know its in the wrong place for what it is being used for.
It would have being perfect for Dublin County location.
I think our proposed National Stadium was to be around Liiffey Valley, personally i would prefer abit farther out.
We should have one as i cannot think of a Country in EU that has not got one.
Our National Stadium is on SCR, not sure who uses it now.
It’s in a perfect location, the problem is that the transport links to it are so fûcking substandard..
Lots of other cities have stadia in reasonably central and high population centers.... Madrid, London being two that I’ve been to...difference is, they have great and suitable public transport to get people to and from the stadia... efficiently and safety...
Look at the Bernabéu in Madrid... similar size, in a similarly seriously built up area... SIX metro stops within 11 minutes walking distance, some closer.
There be the difference.0 -
flasher0030 wrote: »What good points does he raise. He mentions that Dublin have advantages in terms of population and in terms of the finance they can raise.
And basically it's up to the chasing pack to raise their game. He doesn't mention the millions that Dublin received all those years ago to get them going on that success ladder. Money that is not provided to the other counties.
I don't see any substance in his comments.
Exactly, Dublin have always had the population advantage, that nothing new, they were always able to attract good sponsors that is nothing new, and he recognises that the chasing pack have a bit of work to do.0 -
Exactly, Dublin have always had the population advantage, that nothing new, they were always able to attract good sponsors that is nothing new, and he recognises that the chasing pack have a bit of work to do.
But he's not recognising the key point - that the chasing pack are not getting the financial support that Dublin received which allowed Dublin to kick-start into winning ways. It's a bit dismissive of them to just lecture them that they need to perform better, and get over the fact that Dublin got preferential treatment and they are not getting that.
Anyway, my point is that his comments don't provide any substance or insight into the problem. Just the old-fashioned "get over it" and bury the head in the sand.0 -
Recently, we've had the president of the GAA at the time of giving Dublin extra funding and the Leinster council chairman of the time expressing worry over what has resulted from the decisions they participated in. The latest Leinster council chairman should take note before it's too late!
As this thread has documented and as we know, the plan drawn up and funded by the GAA and taxpayers has transformed Dublin GAA. When you look at the system in closer detail, you can see why.
The influx of coaches aimed to increase playing numbers for the clubs they were hired for by going to primary and secondary schools within their area, improve the standards within the clubs through coaching themselves, coaching other coaches, having elite academies etc.
The registered playing numbers for clubs in Dublin were 30,000 and under for 8-18 year olds. Dublin were granted 1.5 million and above every year to develop this age group. Within this Dublin only scheme, clubs paid half the wages of coaches so every year close to 3 million was being spent on developing talent.
This granted nearly every club in Dublin access to a coach. Especially in the top divisions. The coach took direction from within the club and targeted areas identified by their employers. While this was ongoing, most other counties had 3-4 coaches trying to get around to as many areas as possible within their county. The advantages of the Dublin only scheme compared with the rest of Ireland is obvious.
What also is obvious is that this imbalance in funding and coaches leads to an imbalance when it comes to competition. Dublin GAA don't compete on a level playing field in any competition entered across grades and codes.
We know that Dublin have won around 100 titles post funding and have increased sponsorship and income off the back of it. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on player development so any thoughts that this will end would appear to be well off the mark.
The original decision to overfund Dublin has snowballed and created a professional outfit operating in an amateur sport. Only games development funding has been looked at in this post, millions spent on team preparations, salaries, expenses etc come after this. Splitting Dublin is the only option we have.0 -
flasher0030 wrote: »But he's not recognising the key point - that the chasing pack are not getting the financial support that Dublin received which allowed Dublin to kick-start into winning ways. It's a bit dismissive of them to just lecture them that they need to perform better, and get over the fact that Dublin got preferential treatment and they are not getting that.
Anyway, my point is that his comments don't provide any substance or insight into the problem. Just the old-fashioned "get over it" and bury the head in the sand.
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/donegal-appoint-former-footballer-of-the-year-karl-lacey-as-head-of-academy-development-40012374.html
I’m assuming this is a voluntary role, as there is no funding anywhere else but Dublin.0 -
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/donegal-appoint-former-footballer-of-the-year-karl-lacey-as-head-of-academy-development-40012374.html
I’m assuming this is a voluntary role, as there is no funding anywhere else but Dublin.
This is a really poor effort at justifying the 2 decade long funding disparity. Lies and deflection is all the defenders have now.0 -
If the development officers were not going into a lot of these schools in Dublin would the kids be playing/training hurling/football in school much? No probably/possibly not.Recently, we've had the president of the GAA at the time of giving Dublin extra funding and the Leinster council chairman of the time expressing worry over what has resulted from the decisions they participated in. The latest Leinster council chairman should take note before it's too late!
As this thread has documented and as we know, the plan drawn up and funded by the GAA and taxpayers has transformed Dublin GAA. When you look at the system in closer detail, you can see why.
The influx of coaches aimed to increase playing numbers for the clubs they were hired for by going to primary and secondary schools within their area, improve the standards within the clubs through coaching themselves, coaching other coaches, having elite academies etc.
The registered playing numbers for clubs in Dublin were 30,000 and under for 8-18 year olds. Dublin were granted 1.5 million and above every year to develop this age group. Within this Dublin only scheme, clubs paid half the wages of coaches so every year close to 3 million was being spent on developing talent.
This granted nearly every club in Dublin access to a coach. Especially in the top divisions. The coach took direction from within the club and targeted areas identified by their employers. While this was ongoing, most other counties had 3-4 coaches trying to get around to as many areas as possible within their county. The advantages of the Dublin only scheme compared with the rest of Ireland is obvious.
What also is obvious is that this imbalance in funding and coaches leads to an imbalance when it comes to competition. Dublin GAA don't compete on a level playing field in any competition entered across grades and codes.
We know that Dublin have won around 100 titles post funding and have increased sponsorship and income off the back of it. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on player development so any thoughts that this will end would appear to be well off the mark.
The original decision to overfund Dublin has snowballed and created a professional outfit operating in an amateur sport. Only games development funding has been looked at in this post, millions spent on team preparations, salaries, expenses etc come after this. Splitting Dublin is the only option we have.
That isnt the case in many other areas in the country where kids will be hurling/playing gaelic on far more regular basis.
Dublin under-achieved for years considering all their advantages. Theyre now maybe over achieving but that will settle down in years to come.
Many clubs nationwide dont necessarily need a full time coach to be going into schools when you have far more involvement from the clubs, teachers, local clubs doing work with schools already.
Up to counties nationwide to look or start doing it themselves in terms of paying development officers with clubs paying half. Dont say this is only a dublin thing as the counties have it in their power to do it themselves if they really want to.0 -
flasher0030 wrote: »What good points does he raise. He mentions that Dublin have advantages in terms of population and in terms of the finance they can raise.
And basically it's up to the chasing pack to raise their game. He doesn't mention the millions that Dublin received all those years ago to get them going on that success ladder. Money that is not provided to the other counties.
I don't see any substance in his comments.
I think the bit in bold is key. That finance was received all those years ago, and the current financing arrangements are much more balanced.
Things have been fixed, time for the others to raise their game, as the Leinster Council chairman implies.0 -
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Festive Life wrote: »If the development officers were not going into a lot of these schools in Dublin would the kids be playing/training hurling/football in school much? No probably/possibly not.
That isnt the case in many other areas in the country where kids will be hurling/playing gaelic on far more regular basis.
Dublin under-achieved for years considering all their advantages. Theyre now maybe over achieving but that will settle down in years to come.
Many clubs nationwide dont necessarily need a full time coach to be going into schools when you have far more involvement from the clubs, teachers, local clubs doing work with schools already.
Up to counties nationwide to look or start doing it themselves in terms of paying development officers with clubs paying half. Dont say this is only a dublin thing as the counties have it in their power to do it themselves if they really want to.
The coaches go to schools for player recruitment and coaching but their main role is within the club they're hired by. Developing talent within the club, coaching other coaches etc is their main duty. They also develop elite talent, organise camps etc. Their influence is huge.
Every club would love to have someone like this on board. It would be of enormous benefit. You want it ignored but the fact that this was only available for Dublin clubs is the major issue. Why wasn't it made available across the country? Why was the finance ring fenced for Dublin?
Most clubs can't afford these coaches. Even with the enormous wealth in Dublin, they are still claiming the money to pay for half the coaches wages. The huge impact the professional coaches have made to standards in Dublin is obvious and has been admitted to by high level employees of Dublin GAA.
It has been ongoing since 2002, every other county have had to operate with limited resources while Dublin had access to their own special fund. It should never have happened to begin with and the realisation that it has to be stopped is dawning on many.0 -
I think the bit in bold is key. That finance was received all those years ago, and the current financing arrangements are much more balanced.
Things have been fixed, time for the others to raise their game, as the Leinster Council chairman implies.
It may have started in 2002 but Dublin are still receiving their own special fund. Repeated attempts to ignore 2 decades of funding disparity is very telling.0 -
Clubs dont need the GAA at central level to have someone go into local schools working as a coach. A rugby club i know dont have access to a paid development officer and are paying one of their young adult players who has done his coaching qualifications etc and he is going into 5/6 of the local schools that the club pulls players from.The coaches go to schools for player recruitment and coaching but their main role is within the club they're hired by. Developing talent within the club, coaching other coaches etc is their main duty. They also develop elite talent, organise camps etc. Their influence is huge.
Every club would love to have someone like this on board. It would be of enormous benefit. You want it ignored but the fact that this was only available for Dublin clubs is the major issue. Why wasn't it made available across the country? Why was the finance ring fenced for Dublin?
Most clubs can't afford these coaches. Even with the enormous wealth in Dublin, they are still claiming the money to pay for half the coaches wages. The huge impact the professional coaches have made to standards in Dublin is obvious and has been admitted to by high level employees of Dublin GAA.
It has been ongoing since 2002, every other county have had to operate with limited resources while Dublin had access to their own special fund. It should never have happened to begin with and the realisation that it has to be stopped is dawning on many.
They are using their club lotto funding to support this. Nothing stopping GAA clubs doing similar.
Every other county isnt working off limited resources. You write as if no other county is doing extensive work with school kids, developing players to a high level.0 -
Clubs dont need the GAA at central level to have someone go into local schools working as a coach. A rugby club i know dont have access to a paid development officer and are paying one of their young adult players who has done his coaching qualifications etc and he is going into 5/6 of the local schools that the club pulls players from.The coaches go to schools for player recruitment and coaching but their main role is within the club they're hired by. Developing talent within the club, coaching other coaches etc is their main duty. They also develop elite talent, organise camps etc. Their influence is huge.
Every club would love to have someone like this on board. It would be of enormous benefit. You want it ignored but the fact that this was only available for Dublin clubs is the major issue. Why wasn't it made available across the country? Why was the finance ring fenced for Dublin?
Most clubs can't afford these coaches. Even with the enormous wealth in Dublin, they are still claiming the money to pay for half the coaches wages. The huge impact the professional coaches have made to standards in Dublin is obvious and has been admitted to by high level employees of Dublin GAA.
It has been ongoing since 2002, every other county have had to operate with limited resources while Dublin had access to their own special fund. It should never have happened to begin with and the realisation that it has to be stopped is dawning on many.
They are using their club lotto funding to support this. Nothing stopping GAA clubs doing similar.
Every other county isnt working off limited resources. You write as if no other county is doing extensive work with school kids, developing players to a high level.0 -
Recently, we've had the president of the GAA at the time of giving Dublin extra funding and the Leinster council chairman of the time expressing worry over what has resulted from the decisions they participated in. The latest Leinster council chairman should take note before it's too late!
As this thread has documented and as we know, the plan drawn up and funded by the GAA and taxpayers has transformed Dublin GAA. When you look at the system in closer detail, you can see why.
The influx of coaches aimed to increase playing numbers for the clubs they were hired for by going to primary and secondary schools within their area, improve the standards within the clubs through coaching themselves, coaching other coaches, having elite academies etc.
The registered playing numbers for clubs in Dublin were 30,000 and under for 8-18 year olds. Dublin were granted 1.5 million and above every year to develop this age group. Within this Dublin only scheme, clubs paid half the wages of coaches so every year close to 3 million was being spent on developing talent.
This granted nearly every club in Dublin access to a coach. Especially in the top divisions. The coach took direction from within the club and targeted areas identified by their employers. While this was ongoing, most other counties had 3-4 coaches trying to get around to as many areas as possible within their county. The advantages of the Dublin only scheme compared with the rest of Ireland is obvious.
What also is obvious is that this imbalance in funding and coaches leads to an imbalance when it comes to competition. Dublin GAA don't compete on a level playing field in any competition entered across grades and codes.
We know that Dublin have won around 100 titles post funding and have increased sponsorship and income off the back of it. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on player development so any thoughts that this will end would appear to be well off the mark.
The original decision to overfund Dublin has snowballed and created a professional outfit operating in an amateur sport. Only games development funding has been looked at in this post, millions spent on team preparations, salaries, expenses etc come after this. Splitting Dublin is the only option we have.
You can say it here over and over again , it wont change the fact
That Dublin will not accept a split :rolleyes:0 -
Festive Life wrote: »Clubs dont need the GAA at central level to have someone go into local schools working as a coach. A rugby club i know dont have access to a paid development officer and are paying one of their young adult players who has done his coaching qualifications etc and he is going into 5/6 of the local schools that the club pulls players from.
They are using their club lotto funding to support this. Nothing stopping GAA clubs doing similar.
Every other county isnt working off limited resources. You write as if no other county is doing extensive work with school kids, developing players to a high level.
You are poorly informed on the financial capabilities of most clubs. Why do Dublin clubs still receive millions to pay for coaches? These coaches are highly qualified and they have made a huge difference to the standards of Dublin GAA. Dublin GAA employees have admitted to this.
You're using a variant of the claim that every other county just has to work harder. Very insulting claim. Talent development is a multi billion euro industry. Are you trying to claim that one county receiving extensive resources to fund their own dedicated system hasn't been a huge advantage to Dublin GAA?0 -
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Am I? There is a lot of clubs running lottos and many other fundraising drives are you really sure they couldnt? Its not like they have the travel costs that many rugby clubs have for example. All senior clubs in normal seasons are paying thousands and thousands on travel to games, over nights if travelling length of country.You are poorly informed on the financial capabilities of most clubs. Why do Dublin clubs still receive millions to pay for coaches? These coaches are highly qualified and they have made a huge difference to the standards of Dublin GAA. Dublin GAA employees have admitted to this.
You're using a variant of the claim that every other county just has to work harder. Very insulting claim. Talent development is a multi billion euro industry. Are you trying to claim that one county receiving extensive resources to fund their own dedicated system hasn't been a huge advantage to Dublin GAA?
Im saying many other counties have to be cleverer. Im not saying and never have said that other counties are not working hard enough.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »Am I? There is a lot of clubs running lottos and many other fundraising drives are you really sure they couldnt? Its not like they have the travel costs that many rugby clubs have for example. All senior clubs in normal seasons are paying thousands and thousands on travel to games, over nights if travelling length of country.
Im saying many other counties have to be cleverer. Im not saying and never have said that other counties are not working hard enough.
To be honest, you're showing your ignorance on the topic here. Do you have any idea of the financial situation in most clubs? As I've already asked, why are Dublin still receiving millions every year with the amount of money available to them if it's so cheap to employ full time coaches?
Why was this special fund to employ coaches only available to Dublin? Ask any club, ask any county board, the level of support Dublin got would do wonders for Gaelic games. That it was a Dublin only scheme is the issue. It won't go away. And what actions other counties have made or have not made is irrelevant to the fact that the financial disparity is a scandal. It has to be rectified.0 -
You are poorly informed on the financial capabilities of most clubs. Why do Dublin clubs still receive millions to pay for coaches? These coaches are highly qualified and they have made a huge difference to the standards of Dublin GAA. Dublin GAA employees have admitted to this.
You're using a variant of the claim that every other county just has to work harder. Very insulting claim. Talent development is a multi billion euro industry. Are you trying to claim that one county receiving extensive resources to fund their own dedicated system hasn't been a huge advantage to Dublin GAA?
Dublin don’t receive any money to pay for coaches....
Highly qualified ? Not much point in asking a coach with no football, camogie or hurling experience to coach... qualified and experienced is desired, is necessary.
Made a huge difference to Dublin ? Errr that’s the idea... of every player selected, coach, medical personnel, backroom person chosen. Or should they select based on somebody’s ability to make a ‘modest’ impact...?
Talent development is a ‘multi billion euro industry’ ? In Dublin GAA ? Do you have facts to back this up, as in numbers ? Like bugs bunny we are all ears.0 -
Dublin don’t receive any money to pay for coaches....
Highly qualified ? Not much point in asking a coach with no football, camogie or hurling experience to coach... qualified and experienced is desired, is necessary.
Made a huge difference to Dublin ? Errr that’s the idea... of every player selected, coach, medical personnel, backroom person chosen. Or should they select based on somebody’s ability to make a ‘modest’ impact...?
Talent development is a ‘multi billion euro industry’ ? In Dublin GAA ? Do you have facts to back this up, as in numbers ? Like bugs bunny we are all ears.
Dublin have received millions upon millions of euros to pay for coaches. Far above any other county. Every other county received in and around the same amount each.
That's the massive difference it made to Dublin GAA. They've been competing in every competition with that advantage since. Not competing on a level playing field.
This is why they have won around 100 titles post funding. The only surprise is that it's only 100 titles.0 -
Im not showing any ignorance. And Dublin are not getting millions every year. Can you show a link with a source that they are getting millions every year?To be honest, you're showing your ignorance on the topic here. Do you have any idea of the financial situation in most clubs? As I've already asked, why are Dublin still receiving millions every year with the amount of money available to them if it's so cheap to employ full time coaches?
Why was this special fund to employ coaches only available to Dublin? Ask any club, ask any county board, the level of support Dublin got would do wonders for Gaelic games. That it was a Dublin only scheme is the issue. It won't go away. And what actions other counties have made or have not made is irrelevant to the fact that the financial disparity is a scandal. It has to be rectified.
Dublin has around 20% of the countries population so of course it should be getting a huge percentage of the development funding when thats taken into account and compared to lot of other counties GAA is not going to be as big within the community
Why cant clubs combine their resources to get a development officer.
All the rugby provinces have development officers of various levels and some are paid half by the province/IRFU and half by the clubs they work with. Some of these officers work with multiple clubs. County boards should just find ways to do this. Saying county boards cant get it done is nonsense. If they really wanted to they could. What other counties have done or not done is completely relevant to this discussion. Its the entire point of this discussion.
Totally agree. Why hire coaches at all if theyre not going to be qualified.Dublin don’t receive any money to pay for coaches....
Highly qualified? Not much point in asking a coach with no football, camogie or hurling experience to coach... qualified and experienced is desired, is necessary.
Made a huge difference to Dublin? Errr that’s the idea... of every player selected, coach, medical personnel, backroom person chosen. Or should they select based on somebody’s ability to make a ‘modest’ impact...?
Talent development is a ‘multi billion euro industry’? In Dublin GAA? Do you have facts to back this up, as in numbers? Like bugs bunny we are all ears.
And in no way are millions being spent.
Where are all these links that show all the millions that Dublin GAA has received?Dublin have received millions upon millions of euros to pay for coaches. Far above any other county. Every other county received in and around the same amount each.
That's the massive difference it made to Dublin GAA. They've been competing in every competition with that advantage since. Not competing on a level playing field.
This is why they have won around 100 titles post funding. The only surprise is that it's only 100 titles.0 -
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Dublin have received millions upon millions of euros to pay for coaches. Far above any other county. Every other county received in and around the same amount each.
That's the massive difference it made to Dublin GAA. They've been competing in every competition with that advantage since. Not competing on a level playing field.
This is why they have won around 100 titles post funding. The only surprise is that it's only 100 titles.
Can you provide a communication or evidence to prove Dublin payed millions upon millions on coaches? An actual verifiable figure ?
Why would Dublin not receive more funding though ? More clubs, more players / participants...
The same reason Cork receive more money than Leitrim, the same as why Galway receive more then Louth.... Kerry more then Laois...
More participants, more clubs, more games, more facilities...Do Dublin have an advantage? Yep , a population advantage... certainly... they are the most populous county... it’s an ‘inter county’ championship
But look at population as a driver to success....
Hurling :
Clare, Tipp, Galway, Limerick and Kilkenny are the 5 teams to have won the Liam McCarthy Cup over the last 10 years...
Two of the top ten most populous counties, so it’s not population...
Otherwise Dublin are winning the Leinster Championship, they haven’t had a sniff... if it is the ahem.. massive funding ? If it was.. Dublin are winning the Leinster and progressing in the all Ireland, they are not.... so no, money and funding is making fûck all impact... human endeavor, talent on the other hand, IS.0 -
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Why bother with ‘money and funding’ if it makes no impact?
Because in every county and club the sport costs money to run, to exist. At both club and inter-county level...
Administration costs, costs for kit, light, heat, insurance, maintenance, equipment - balls, nets, tractors / lawnmowers, pitch markings, flags, scoreboards, entertainment, catering, medical / physio services... cleaners etc...
Bigger counties with greater levels of participation required more assistance.0 -
Festive Life wrote: »Im not showing any ignorance. And Dublin are not getting millions every year. Can you show a link with a source that they are getting millions every year?
Dublin has around 20% of the countries population so of course it should be getting a huge percentage of the development funding when thats taken into account and compared to lot of other counties GAA is not going to be as big within the community
Why cant clubs combine their resources to get a development officer.
All the rugby provinces have development officers of various levels and some are paid half by the province/IRFU and half by the clubs they work with. Some of these officers work with multiple clubs. County boards should just find ways to do this. Saying county boards cant get it done is nonsense. If they really wanted to they could. What other counties have done or not done is completely relevant to this discussion. Its the entire point of this discussion.
Totally agree. Why hire coaches at all if theyre not going to be qualified.
And in no way are millions being spent.
Where are all these links that show all the millions that Dublin GAA has received?
Oh I'm sorry. I thought you may have read this thread. There are many links throughout or you can find the money Dublin have received on the annual GAA accounts, the Dublin county board accounts or the Irish sports council reports.
You appear to be a rugby supporter so I'll give you a rugby analogy to help here. It would be like the IRFU funding one province far above all the others. Just say Leinster for example, they would be funding their academies directly with huge finance while giving every other province very little.
Rugby is a professional sport at that level though so it's obviously more outrageous in an amateur sport. Basically Dublin were given their own scheme to develop talent at underage. Registered club players from 8-18 numbered under 30,000 so this is where the money was focused. The results of this are that they increased the number of titles they were winning across the board by a huge amount. I have a link on my signature showing that and the Dublin county board accounts if you want to have a look?0 -
Can you provide a communication or evidence to prove Dublin payed millions upon millions on coaches? An actual verifiable figure ?
Why would Dublin not receive more funding though ? More clubs, more players / participants...
The same reason Cork receive more money than Leitrim, the same as why Galway receive more then Louth.... Kerry more then Laois...
More participants, more clubs, more games, more facilities...Do Dublin have an advantage? Yep , a population advantage... certainly... they are the most populous county... it’s an ‘inter county’ championship
But look at population as a driver to success....
Hurling :
Clare, Tipp, Galway, Limerick and Kilkenny are the 5 teams to have won the Liam McCarthy Cup over the last 10 years...
Two of the top ten most populous counties, so it’s not population...
Otherwise Dublin are winning the Leinster Championship, they haven’t had a sniff... if it is the ahem.. massive funding ? If it was.. Dublin are winning the Leinster and progressing in the all Ireland, they are not.... so no, money and funding is making fûck all impact... human endeavor, talent on the other hand, IS.
This is a poor effort. Basically regurgitating points that have been refuted numerous times. Cork have more clubs than Dublin for example. The playing populations are fairly similar but Cork have a far bigger land mass to cover. You would think the funding would be broadly similar? Not even close. Dublin have received many multiples of the amount Cork have received.
When you look at all other counties. There's not much if a gap. They all got enough to fund between 1 and 6 coaches. The only county out on it's own is Dublin. The results gained from this have been predictable.0 -
It may have started in 2002 but Dublin are still receiving their own special fund. Repeated attempts to ignore 2 decades of funding disparity is very telling.
Nobody is ignoring previous funding disparities.
However, the issue has now become balanced.
There was a particular need in Dublin to boost Gaelic Games among juveniles and specific funding was directed towards that aim. It worked and is working. Currently, funding is more balanced - linked to population - and really those looking for more funding should be following the Dublin example and setting out the reasons for funding and the plan for spending it.
Crying over spilt milk, or funding that has now become balanced, is not healthy for anyone.
I will leave it there as I don't think that there is much more to be said.0 -
Nobody is ignoring previous funding disparities.
However, the issue has now become balanced.
There was a particular need in Dublin to boost Gaelic Games among juveniles and specific funding was directed towards that aim. It worked and is working. Currently, funding is more balanced - linked to population - and really those looking for more funding should be following the Dublin example and setting out the reasons for funding and the plan for spending it.
Crying over spilt milk, or funding that has now become balanced, is not healthy for anyone.
I will leave it there as I don't think that there is much more to be said.
At least you're admitting to the huge benefits gained from the funding disparity but I'm afraid it can't all just be swept under the carpet. The funding did not only lead to a huge number of titles but it also led to increased sponsorship off the back of that success. It allowed Dublin GAA to increase income streams. They spend over 2 million on wages every year, over 2 million on expenses, 1.5 million on team preparation and now spend close to 4 million on games development.
This shows that it's far from balanced. The coaching and development plan created and funded for Dublin has led to these crazy figures available to them. It just can't be let continue. This is not something that anyone would have wanted but it was clear prior to funding that Dublin needed to be split and it's certain now that it must happen.0 -
At least you're admitting to the huge benefits gained from the funding disparity but I'm afraid it can't all just be swept under the carpet. The funding did not only lead to a huge number of titles but it also led to increased sponsorship off the back of that success. It allowed Dublin GAA to increase income streams. They spend over 2 million on wages every year, over 2 million on expenses, 1.5 million on team preparation and now spend close to 4 million on games development.
This shows that it's far from balanced. The coaching and development plan created and funded for Dublin has led to these crazy figures available to them. It just can't be let continue. This is not something that anyone would have wanted but it was clear prior to funding that Dublin needed to be split and it's certain now that it must happen.
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased sponsorship has not even been argued coherently let alone a substantive case been made.
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased success at senior level has at least had an argument advanced, but it is far from proven, given the disparity in performance of the football and hurling teams and the tenuous nature of the argument.
Either way though, the fact that funding is no longer unbalanced means that we will never know. The departure when it comes, of Stephen Cluxton, is likely to have more effect on the success of Dublin, than any other factor.0 -
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased sponsorship has not even been argued coherently let alone a substantive case been made.
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased success at senior level has at least had an argument advanced, but it is far from proven, given the disparity in performance of the football and hurling teams and the tenuous nature of the argument.
Either way though, the fact that funding is no longer unbalanced means that we will never know. The departure when it comes, of Stephen Cluxton, is likely to have more effect on the success of Dublin, than any other factor.
Some of the figures that are put in the argument to you are so skewed you could call them blatant lies. 4 million spent by Dublin GAA on coaching is a lie. The average contribution to GDO/GPO is 20k. As has been stated there are approx 70 GDO/GPO, maths must not be a strong point, but my figures come out approx 1.4m. The clubs make up the shortfall. So the figure of 4m is a downright lie. Using inflated figures to try and justify an argument is really silly and shows the level some will manipulate figures to further their poorly constructed point.0 -
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased sponsorship has not even been argued coherently let alone a substantive case been made.
The link between increased funding for juvenile participation and increased success at senior level has at least had an argument advanced, but it is far from proven, given the disparity in performance of the football and hurling teams and the tenuous nature of the argument.
Either way though, the fact that funding is no longer unbalanced means that we will never know. The departure when it comes, of Stephen Cluxton, is likely to have more effect on the success of Dublin, than any other factor.
The funding helped increase participation but it also targeted elite development. A senior member of the Dublin system noted the transformation in standards of development squads from prior to the funding to post funding. He put that down to the gdo's.
On field success of course leads to increased sponsorship. How can you argue otherwise? Having the revenue available to hire marketing managers alone would lead to that. Having your development system funded for you frees up extra funds.
The rise in standards across the board has been incredible. Not just the senior footballers. The hurlers have gone from minnows to serious competitors. The Dublin ladies team have transformed into a dominant force like their male equivalents. Dublin club teams have also seen a huge increase in results. 2 All Ireland club hurling titles, that would have been unthinkable prior to the funding.
2 decades of funding disparity has left Dublin in an advantage position on and off the field. I've informed you of the figures available for Dublin GAA. These are amateur games we're discussing here, I don't see any reasonable argument for allowing one county to operate on a professional level with huge sums of money available to them in an amateur sport.0 -
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