The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

ArielAtom

mitchelsontour wrote: »

If it's their home ground when was the last time the senior footballers played a game there?

What’s you point? Dublin GAA home is Parnell Park. That is a fact, that is not up for debate. If you have factual evidence to offer please provide it. Remembers facts not fiction.

mitchelsontour

ArielAtom wrote: »

What’s you point? Dublin GAA home is Parnell Park. That is a fact, that is not up for debate. If you have factual evidence to offer please provide it. Remembers facts not fiction.

All I asked was when did the senior footballers last play there
Is it such a difficult question to answer?

ArielAtom

mitchelsontour wrote: »

All I asked was when did the senior footballers last play there
Is it such a difficult question to answer?

What has that got to do with the home of Dublin GAA???

ShyMets

mitchelsontour wrote: »

All I asked was when did the senior footballers last play there
Is it such a difficult question to answer?

Early 00's but I may be mistaken

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

What has that got to do with the home of Dublin GAA???

Parnell Park is Dublins official ground on paper, but you must agree that Dublin enjoy the benefit of home advantage because they play almost all of their games in croke park? I mean that is pretty obvious right?

mitchelsontour

Where did they declare their home ground for the footballers for the Super 8's?

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Parnell Park is Dublins official ground on paper, but you must agree that Dublin enjoy the benefit of home advantage because they play almost all of their games in croke park? I mean that is pretty obvious right?

So one of Dublins 4 Snr teams plays games at Croke Park it makes it Dublins home ground?

ArielAtom

mitchelsontour wrote: »

Where did they declare their home ground for the footballers for the Super 8's?

Any county can rent Croke Park, it’s not reserved for any one county. Dublin starts playing games there at the request of HQ to offset the running costs of the stadium. I’d love to play all games in Parnell Park bu that would mean no away supporters as the season ticket and Parnell Park Pass holders would get preference. I’m a member of neither, I get my tickets from my club. Would you be happy being told you couldn’t travel to a game against Dublin if you were a follower of your county?

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

So one of Dublins 4 Snr teams plays games at Croke Park it makes it Dublins home ground?

Sorry, I didn't think I would have to spell it out for you:

Parnell Park is Dublins official ground on paper, but you must agree that Dublin Senior Mens Football (GAA, not soccer) team enjoy the benefit of home advantage because they play almost all of their games in croke park? I mean that is pretty obvious right?

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't think I would have to spell it out for you:

Parnell Park is Dublins official ground on paper, but you must agree that Dublin Senior Mens Football (GAA, not soccer) team enjoy the benefit of home advantage because they play almost all of their games in croke park? I mean that is pretty obvious right?

Don’t know where soccer came from. I am talking about Football, hurling, Ladies football and Camogie.

ShyMets

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't think I would have to spell it out for you:

Parnell Park is Dublins official ground on paper, but you must agree that Dublin Senior Mens Football (GAA, not soccer) team enjoy the benefit of home advantage because they play almost all of their games in croke park? I mean that is pretty obvious right?

I agree it can be an advantage to Dublin to play their games in Croke Park. But its the Leinster Council who decide where Dublin play.

mitchelsontour

I believe that Kildare have shown that if you want to play in your home ground that it probably can happen.

But given that most of the current senior footballers have never played an inter county league or championship game in Parnell Park then it cannot reasonably be considered the home ground of the footballers for this discussion.

ArielAtom

mitchelsontour wrote: »

I believe that Kildare have shown that if you want to play in your home ground that it probably can happen.

But given that most of the current senior footballers have never played an inter county league or championship game in Parnell Park then it cannot reasonably be considered the home ground of the footballers for this discussion.

If Dublin Snr footballers play 4-6 games per year that would otherwise be played in Parnell Park that is about it. They do not use it like other counties do for training games etc. If it is an advantage it’s minimal. Do you agree that Dublin GAA home ground is Parnell Park?

mitchelsontour

ArielAtom wrote: »

If Dublin Snr footballers play 4-6 games per year that would otherwise be played in Parnell Park that is about it. They do not use it like other counties do for training games etc. If it is an advantage it’s minimal. Do you agree that Dublin GAA home ground is Parnell Park?

So the footballers over a 10yr period have played let's say 50 games minimum in Croke Park, yet none in Parnell Park - do you agree with this assumption.

All the other Dublin inter county teams play games in Parnell Park.

There is the caveat for the discussion. Parnell Park is the home of Dublin GAA but given the amount of games played by the footballers in Croke Park they have home advantage by playing there constantly because of familiarity and routine. Therefore the footballers play the majority of their games at home.

Also as I pointed out in an earlier post
Home advantage - game played within your county bounds.
Away game - played within opponents county bounds.
Neutral game - played outside both teams county bounds

ooter

Interesting choice of words, home advantage instead of home game.
Dublin played Meath and westmeath in Parnell park in January 2019 by the way.

ArielAtom

mitchelsontour wrote: »

So the footballers over a 10yr period have played let's say 50 games minimum in Croke Park, yet none in Parnell Park - do you agree with this assumption.

All the other Dublin inter county teams play games in Parnell Park.

There is the caveat for the discussion. Parnell Park is the home of Dublin GAA but given the amount of games played by the footballers in Croke Park they have home advantage by playing there constantly because of familiarity and routine. Therefore the footballers play the majority of their games at home.

Also as I pointed out in an earlier post
Home advantage - game played within your county bounds.
Away game - played within opponents county bounds.
Neutral game - played outside both teams county bounds

So what you are saying is if Dublin play any game in HQ it is deemed a home game due to it being within the county boundaries?

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

Don’t know where soccer came from. I am talking about Football, hurling, Ladies football and Camogie.

You dont have to answer the question - keep dodging it if it makes you feel uncomfortable

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You dont have to answer the question - keep dodging it if it makes you feel uncomfortable

I have answered it. Check my previous post with regards to playing at HQ. Post 6778

StupidLikeAFox

ooter wrote: »

Interesting choice of words, home advantage instead of home game.
Dublin played Meath and westmeath in Parnell park in January 2019 by the way.

Yeah, the term is home advantage, an advantage one team has over their opponents and gained by playing in familiar surroundings on a consistent basis.

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

I have answered it. Check my previous post with regards to playing at HQ. Post 6778

Sorry I missed that, so you agree that Dublin enjoy the benefit of home advantage when playing in croke park, sound, could have cleared that up way earlier

mitchelsontour

ArielAtom wrote: »

So what you are saying is if Dublin play any game in HQ it is deemed a home game due to it being within the county boundaries?

Logically yes as the opposition has to travel to their opponents county

You would have a valid argument that the hurlers would not have home advantage because they play the majority of their games at the county ground at Parnell Park .

But the footballers do have home advantage because as I have pointed out they play the vast majority of all their games especially championship there and as I said routine, familiarity and a larger support than you opponent make up what you could reasonably define as home advantage from playing your games at home.

Given we are unlikely to agree on this matter I will leave it at that for the debate of home ground/advantage.

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sorry I missed that, so you agree that Dublin enjoy the benefit of home advantage when playing in croke park, sound, could have cleared that up way earlier

I acknowledged between 4-6 games per year are a played there by the Snr footballers. I don’t recall using the term advantage, but if you took that out of no probs.

ooter

3 pages of deflection from the PUC story, nothing to be seen there.

JeffKenna

ooter wrote: »

3 pages of deflection from the PUC story, nothing to be seen there.

Deflection from what exactly? Cork GAA are €30m in debt because they redeveloped a stadium. You posted this in the dominance of Dublin GAA thread. Dublin will never be in that position because they get the free use of a stadium...aka a financial advantage over other counties.

Enquiring

Dublin footballers last played a championship game in Parnell Park in 2004 against London. Since then, they've played 96 championship games. 89 of those championship games have been played in Croke Park. 3 have been played in Portlaoise, 2 in Omagh, 1 in Kilkenny, 1 in Longford and 0 in Parnell Park.

SheepsClothing

ArielAtom wrote: »

So what you are saying is if Dublin play any game in HQ it is deemed a home game due to it being within the county boundaries?

Obviously yes. They are home games.

ArielAtom

As the majority of this thread is just a moanfest pointing out Dublin dominance, with very little focus on solving the perceived issue.

From my point, the split that some are looking for will not happen. The AI series is county based. Split Dublin and it is no longer a AI. Most posters would agree on that. I have my own ideas on what I see that can be done.

1. Dublin play their home games in Parnell Park, or a newly built stadium that is heavily funded by central funds ala PUC, this will be a capex project that going by the majority of posters should not pose a problem, Dublin will be required to fund at least 30% of the total cost .This will ensure that Croke Park is reserved for Leinster Final, AI Semi and Final. This will have a knock on affect, there will be no opposition supporters as the crowd will be made up on season ticket and Parnell Park ticket holders.

2. Finances are being addressed as we discuss this. The Dublin only project that was funded by the ISC has ceased. Financing is better distributed, Dublin lie mid table in this since approx 2017. That is not to say that further funding for other counties is not required, the GAA need to put a committee together to look at how this will be achieved.

3. To ensure this funding is maximised to it's full potential full time official needs to be appointed to each county.

4. People need to buy into this and stop living in the past, what funding was allocated to Dublin is done. It can't and won't be taken back. So if posters want to live in the past and not look to developing a plan that is acceptable to all then we are fighting a losing battle.

ArielAtom

SheepsClothing wrote: »

Obviously yes. They are home games.

So let me get this straight, you are now saying that an Leinster final, AI semi final and AI final are home games for Dublin?

ArielAtom

JeffKenna wrote: »

Deflection from what exactly? Cork GAA are €30m in debt because they redeveloped a stadium. You posted this in the dominance of Dublin GAA thread. Dublin will never be in that position because they get the free use of a stadium...aka a financial advantage over other counties.

They are 30m in debt because they managed the process poorly, they also got funding from HQ and the government to the tune of 50M. Puts the funding Dublin received in the halfpenny place.

ooter

Pretty sure every county gets free use of croke park stadium.
If Dublin got even a fraction of the money cork got from the GAA for PUC the fume would be off the scale.
The question that was asked a few pages back was when was the last time Dublin senior footballers played in Parnell park, it was January 2019.

dobman88

ooter wrote: »

The question that was asked a few pages back was when was the last time Dublin senior footballers played in Parnell park, it was January 2019.

This is wrong.

They played meath there in the league in October 2020.

Enquiring

ArielAtom wrote: »

As the majority of this thread is just a moanfest pointing out Dublin dominance, with very little focus on solving the perceived issue.

From my point, the split that some are looking for will not happen. The AI series is county based. Split Dublin and it is no longer a AI. Most posters would agree on that. I have my own ideas on what I see that can be done.

1. Dublin play their home games in Parnell Park, or a newly built stadium that is heavily funded by central funds ala PUC, this will be a capex project that going by the majority of posters should not pose a problem, Dublin will be required to fund at least 30% of the total cost .This will ensure that Croke Park is reserved for Leinster Final, AI Semi and Final. This will have a knock on affect, there will be no opposition supporters as the crowd will be made up on season ticket and Parnell Park ticket holders.

2. Finances are being addressed as we discuss this. The Dublin only project that was funded by the ISC has ceased. Financing is better distributed, Dublin lie mid table in this since approx 2017. That is not to say that further funding for other counties is not required, the GAA need to put a committee together to look at how this will be achieved.

3. To ensure this funding is maximised to it's full potential full time official needs to be appointed to each county.

4. People need to buy into this and stop living in the past, what funding was allocated to Dublin is done. It can't and won't be taken back. So if posters want to live in the past and not look to developing a plan that is acceptable to all then we are fighting a losing battle.

The split has to happen because Dublin received huge funding since 2002. Far more than any other county who got in and around the same. This funding has led to a huge number of titles across the board and it has resulted in Dublin having an incredible level of resources available to them. Close to 10 million is spent per year on wages and development alone.

1. Parnell park can play host to Fingal and Dublin city home games.

2. The finance has not been addressed. Dublin still receive far more than anyone else. Along with Dublin, a few other counties are also receiving extra funding. Every other county are still far behind.

3. Agreed. Appointing officers to oversee the Dublin only program was an important part of the plan drawn up by the Strategic review committee in 2002. Every county including the 4 new counties in Dublin should have officials in place to ensure the development of hurling and football is progressing smoothly.

4. With the finance available to Dublin GAA, 4 counties can easily thrive. The wealth and structures are there for it. People need to stop looking at the split as a negative. It's positive for everyone and along with appropriate funding for every county, it will lead to a bright and prosperous future for Gaelic games.

Enquiring

ArielAtom wrote: »

They are 30m in debt because they managed the process poorly, they also got funding from HQ and the government to the tune of 50M. Puts the funding Dublin received in the halfpenny place.

Dublin senior footballers home stadium cost 260 million. They've played 89 out 96 championship matches in Croke Park since 2004. A further 71 million will be spent on upgrades to Croke Park the GAA have announced.

Enquiring

dobman88 wrote: »

This is wrong.

They played meath there in the league in October 2020.

The first Dublin league game to be played in Parnell park in a decade.

dobman88

Enquiring wrote: »

The first Dublin league game to be played in Parnell park in a decade.

What's that got to do with anything. I was just answering the question asked.

Enquiring

dobman88 wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything. I was just answering the question asked.

I'm just adding more facts.

Between 2006 and 2016, Dublin senior footballers played 54 championship games in a row in Croke Park.

ooter

It's just deflection, it's ok to point out that cork gaa only have 6 coaches but point out the huge funding they received and that doesn't suit the agenda.
Dublin gaa have never received a penny from anyone for the redevelopment of croke park, why would they?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

Dublin senior footballers home stadium cost 260 million. They've played 89 out 96 championship matches in Croke Park since 2004. A further 71 million will be spent on upgrades to Croke Park the GAA have announced.

I’m pretty sure that Parnell park didn’t cost 260 million....


To be fair about 23 of those matches at Croke park are provincial or All Ireland finals. These are as a matter of course always held at the largest GAA stadium going given the demand and the prestige associated with playing at Croke park. If you’re telling dublin they can’t play those matches there then no other county could expect to either (in any of the codes), regardless of who they were playing - Kerry, Tyrone and cork for example all seemed to enjoy playing there over the years, and seemed to do alright for themselves. That’s before we get into whether semi finals should be there too. Super 8 games would further impact the number.

olestoepoke

Enquiring wrote: »

Dublin senior footballers home stadium cost 260 million. They've played 89 out 96 championship matches in Croke Park since 2004. A further 71 million will be spent on upgrades to Croke Park the GAA have announced.

The GAA are not going to lose out on the windfall each time the Dubs play there are they? What other county would fill the seats consistently the way Dublin do?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

I’m pretty sure that Parnell park didn’t cost 260 million....


To be fair about 23 of those matches at Croke park are provincial or All Ireland finals. These are as a matter of course always held at the largest GAA stadium going given the demand and the prestige associated with playing at Croke park. If you’re telling dublin they can’t play those matches there then no other county could expect to either (in any of the codes), regardless of who they were playing - Kerry, Tyrone and cork for example all seemed to enjoy playing there over the years, and seemed to do alright for themselves. That’s before we get into whether semi finals should be there too. Super 8 games would further impact the number.

How many championship matches have Dublin footballers played in Parnell park in the last 50 years?

As stated, Dublin footballers didn't play a single championship game outside Croke Park for 10 years. When nominating a home ground for the super 8's, Dublin chose Croke Park.

Amazingly, out of 96 matches, Dublin senior footballers have played 89 at home since 2004. It really is incredible. Moving Dublin hurlers to Croke Park was attempted but Dublin GAA fans attended in such low numbers that they had to abandon that plan.

SheepsClothing

olestoepoke wrote: »

The GAA are not going to lose out on the windfall each time the Dubs play there are they? What other county would fill the seats consistently the way Dublin do?

Do Dublin fill the seats consistently? Maybe for All Ireland finals, but it's not 2006 anymore. People won't pay to watch a team win by double digits.

Jaden

I'm going to come out in Favour of a 4 way slit, But with the following caveats.

* No county team can be expected to have no county stadium, so 4 new stadia will need to be built. Until this is in place, a split cannot be considered.

* Until all 4 new county boards envisage that it is no longer a requirement, inter Dublin county transfers of players are permitted at any point. Any player eligible to play for Dublin is automatically eligible to play for any Dublin based county team, at any point in the season. After this transition period (probably circa 20 years), If a player moves from Fingal to Rathdown, then they may declare for either in that playing year. This applies to all grades and codes.

* Croke park is sold, and a new national stadium is built at a new location in the midlands. This moves the home advantage of the 4 Dublin teams, and transfers that advantage elsewhere (Probably to the combined Longford/Roscommon/Leitrim team). The sale will also be partly able to fund the building of the 4 new required stadia. Obviously, it will come nowhere near covering the cost, maybe 33-50%.

* All other county teams will be required to amalgamate, to ensure fairness of competition. This also has the advantage of streamlining costs - including permitting redundant county grounds to be sold off to finance the new stadia required in Dublin.


Seems to tick all the boxes about fairness and removal of advantages of some teams over others, while at the same time permitting a fair and equitable transfer to a new operating system for County Competition.

Enquiring

olestoepoke wrote: »

The GAA are not going to lose out on the windfall each time the Dubs play there are they? What other county would fill the seats consistently the way Dublin do?

The GAA didn't bankroll Dublin for no reason. They were looking for a return on their investment. Why do you think the Dublin senior footballers have played so many championship games at home and why did they try to add the Dublin hurlers to the bill?

The plan worked. Dublin increased their success and the GAA increased their income off the scheme. Crowds are falling dramatically though. Interest is waning. Dublin are no longer keeping up their end of the deal. It's another one of the reasons why the split is inevitable.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

How many championship matches have Dublin footballers played in Parnell park in the last 50 years?

As stated, Dublin footballers didn't play a single championship game outside Croke Park for 10 years. When nominating a home ground for the super 8's, Dublin chose Croke Park.

Amazingly, out of 96 matches, Dublin senior footballers have played 89 at home since 2004. It really is incredible. Moving Dublin hurlers to Croke Park was attempted but Dublin GAA fans attended in such low numbers that they had to abandon that plan.

Clearly we need to throw some more funding at the hurlers. I do admire the footballers selflessness though, playing 2 neutral venue games.......


But to my point that you’ve completely failed to address- do you agree that finals should be played at Croker? What’s yours view on semi finals? Do you agree that if dublin cant play finals there no one else can expect to either? Do you think Kerry in the 00s had an unfair advantage at the latter stage of the AI due to being more familiar with Croke park than many of their opponents? Did Kilkenny have a similar advantage in the hurling? Cork in ladies football and camogie? Why did home advantage not lead to dublin winning more AIs in the years from 1984 to 2010 (1)?

Enquiring

Jaden wrote: »

I'm going to come out in Favour of a 4 way slit, But with the following caveats.

* No county team can be expected to have no county stadium, so 4 new stadia will need to be built. Until this is in place, a split cannot be considered.

* Until all 4 new county boards envisage that it is no longer a requirement, inter Dublin county transfers of players are permitted at any point. Any player eligible to play for Dublin is automatically eligible to play for any Dublin based county team, at any point in the season. After this transition period (probably circa 20 years), If a player moves from Fingal to Rathdown, then they may declare for either in that playing year. This applies to all grades and codes.

* Croke park is sold, and a new national stadium is built at a new location in the midlands. This moves the home advantage of the 4 Dublin teams, and transfers that advantage elsewhere (Probably to the combined Longford/Roscommon/Leitrim team). The sale will also be partly able to fund the building of the 4 new required stadia. Obviously, it will come nowhere near covering the cost, maybe 33-50%.

* All other county teams will be required to amalgamate, to ensure fairness of competition. This also has the advantage of streamlining costs - including permitting redundant county grounds to be sold off to finance the new stadia required in Dublin.


Seems to tick all the boxes about fairness and removal of advantages of some teams over others, while at the same time permitting a fair and equitable transfer to a new operating system for County Competition.

No need for all of that. If a transitional period is needed, the 4 new counties will enter minor and u20 competitions for a year or two. Then it's full steam ahead.

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Clearly we need to throw some more funding at the hurlers. I do admire the footballers selflessness though, playing 2 neutral venue games.......


But to my point that you’ve completely failed to address- do you agree that finals should be played at Croker? What’s yours view on semi finals? Do you agree that if dublin cant play finals there no one else can expect to either? Do you think Kerry in the 00s had an unfair advantage at the latter stage of the AI due to being more familiar with Croke park than many of their opponents? Did Kilkenny have a similar advantage in the hurling? Cork in ladies football and camogie? Why did home advantage not lead to dublin winning more AIs in the years from 1984 to 2010 (1)?

Enough money has been given to promote hurling as you know. More won't influence Dublin fans to attend games unfortunately.

I was just pointing out the facts. Croke Park is the Dublin senior footballers home stadium. They've played every single home championship game there bar 1 for decades. At least 50 years.

It went from all home games played in Croke Park to all championship games played in Croke Park. Not one played outside their home stadium for 10 years. Amazingly, this decision to give the Dublin footballers home advantage for every single championship game came around the same time that increased funding was pumped into Dublin GAA.

olestoepoke

Enquiring wrote: »

The GAA didn't bankroll Dublin for no reason. They were looking for a return on their investment. Why do you think the Dublin senior footballers have played so many championship games at home and why did they try to add the Dublin hurlers to the bill?

The plan worked. Dublin increased their success and the GAA increased their income off the scheme. Crowds are falling dramatically though. Interest is waning. Dublin are no longer keeping up their end of the deal. It's another one of the reasons why the split is inevitable.

If you think that splitting the Dubs will increase interest you are deluded.

Enquiring

olestoepoke wrote: »

If you think that splitting the Dubs will increase interest you are deluded.

It will. Attendances in the Leinster championship have been decimated. Games that were sell outs have been halved. Dublin fans only bring 10,000 supporters to championship games outside of Croke Park. Other counties have faling attendances too and it's spreading to the All Ireland series.

With new rivalries and excitement over the new counties, interest levels will increase. Local derbies in Dublin obviously but Fingal v Mearh would be a humdinger or South Dublin v Kildare.

ooter

So it is openly acknowledged that Dublin hurling fans don't come out to support their team but they will if it is split in to 4 new teams, it's Dreamland stuff.
I'm amazed more is not being made of the disproportionate funding cork GAA received for PUC.

mitchelsontour

ArielAtom wrote: »

As the majority of this thread is just a moanfest pointing out Dublin dominance, with very little focus on solving the perceived issue.

From my point, the split that some are looking for will not happen. The AI series is county based. Split Dublin and it is no longer a AI. Most posters would agree on that. I have my own ideas on what I see that can be done.

1. Dublin play their home games in Parnell Park, or a newly built stadium that is heavily funded by central funds ala PUC, this will be a capex project that going by the majority of posters should not pose a problem, Dublin will be required to fund at least 30% of the total cost .This will ensure that Croke Park is reserved for Leinster Final, AI Semi and Final. This will have a knock on affect, there will be no opposition supporters as the crowd will be made up on season ticket and Parnell Park ticket holders.

2. Finances are being addressed as we discuss this. The Dublin only project that was funded by the ISC has ceased. Financing is better distributed, Dublin lie mid table in this since approx 2017. That is not to say that further funding for other counties is not required, the GAA need to put a committee together to look at how this will be achieved.

3. To ensure this funding is maximised to it's full potential full time official needs to be appointed to each county.

4. People need to buy into this and stop living in the past, what funding was allocated to Dublin is done. It can't and won't be taken back. So if posters want to live in the past and not look to developing a plan that is acceptable to all then we are fighting a losing battle.

Could you start the ball rolling with some ideas from a Dublin perspective as to what you would see as a fair and reasonable method of the redistribution of resources to rebalance the inequities currently existing.