The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Was I answering you?

No, no I wasn’t. I was answering a very specific point that one poster made

If you want to address that specific point feel free, otherwise I’ve no interest in taking the debate down one of your rabbit holes

So Kerry didn't have their own development plan drawn up and paid for them. Same as the Cork ladies. On the other hand, Dublin did have their own plan drawn up and funded for them. Hence why there's calls for splitting Dublin and not the others.

Enquiring

Past30Now wrote: »

I have no intention of getting into a tit for tat, but the correlation between the funding of GPO's and the success of the Dublin Hurling team eight years ago is a false narrative. If you take the 1993 boys as an example, the GPO programme was only in it's infancy when these lads were beginning to play underage games. The Ciaran Kilkenny/Jack McCaffrey/Paul Mannions etc would have had very little interaction with their club GPO's as juvenile footballers and hurlers. The county development squads that they were part of would have had much more impact, than the GPO in Castleknock/Clontarf/Crokes etc.

The lads playing hurling for Dublin in 2013 would almost all be older again, in some cases 10 or 15 years older. The GPO programme can't have had anything like a significant impact on that team.

Dublin had a major upturn in results at underage hurling throughout the noughties. They won a number of titles at minor and u21 level having not been challenging seriously for decades. These players obviously moved up to senior and made Dublin competitive at the top level. This shows that it can be done for other minnows. Fund them and their standards will improve.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

So Kerry didn't have their own development plan drawn up and paid for them. Same as the Cork ladies. On the other hand, Dublin did have their own plan drawn up and funded for them. Hence why there's calls for splitting Dublin and not the others.

Again, would you like to address the actual point that the poster I responded to made?

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Again, would you like to address the actual point that the poster I responded to made?

I have. You have been told repeatedly why the split must happen.

And I take it you have no evidence for your claim that Dublin received less funding than everyone else prior to 2002?

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

I have. You have been told repeatedly why the split must happen.

And I take it you have no evidence for your claim that Dublin received less funding than everyone else prior to 2002?

And you’ve been told repeatedly why you’re wrong

And evidence provided as to why you’re wrong

It’s up to you if you want to repeatedly ignore that

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

And you’ve been told repeatedly why you’re wrong

And evidence provided as to why you’re wrong

It’s up to you if you want to repeatedly ignore that

You've never even mentioned the close to 10 million per year Dublin now spend on wages and development alone nevermind come up with an argument as to why it should continue.

Even the Leinster council chairman has backed up the assertion that the funding has decimated the championship. Your only efforts to defend the funding disparity have been based in deflection and the untruth that Dublin received less funding than everyone else prior to 2002.

On the other hand, hard evidence has been provided to show just how much Dublin were over funded since 2002 and the effects that has had on and off the field.

ooter

Jaysus, still using cork as a funding stick to beat Dublin with, the irony is staggering.
So is the defence that dublin are some sort of force in senior hurling, jaw dropping.
Laois beat them

breezy1985

JeffKenna wrote: »

To be fair that poster has a vested interest in this discussion with the money JP is pumping into Limerick.

To be fair money from CC and money from your sponsor are 2 very different things.

superbluedub

SheepsClothing wrote: »

But it will happen. The sport can't survive the level of dominance Dublin football can produce.

My question for the naysayers is, how bad will it need to get, before you are willing to countenance a split? 10 in a row? A majority of championships every decade?

But it wont happen any time soon ;)You mean how good will it need to get before you are willing to countenance a split The sport survived Kerry winning 81 Munster titles and 37 All Ireland titles , Dublins run will end soon enough unfortunately

breezy1985

Enquiring wrote: »

Dublin had a major upturn in results at underage hurling throughout the noughties. They won a number of titles at minor and u21 level having not been challenging seriously for decades. These players obviously moved up to senior and made Dublin competitive at the top level. This shows that it can be done for other minnows. Fund them and their standards will improve.

I agree a plan should be put in place with money to back it that small counties can avail of. They had one back in the day which Offaly got great use out of just before winning hurling All Ireland's.

You have to have the money but you also have to be able to use it. Limerick didnt just sign players like they were Man City that success had to be built up slowly

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

Did Kerry have their own development plan drawn up and funded for them to the tune of millions?

I think you know the answer to this one

superbluedub

SheepsClothing wrote: »

In 2013, Dublin were Leinster champions and were leading Cork in the semi final when Ryan O'Dwyer was sent off. Cork lost to Clare in the final replay that year. If that doesn't make you a contender, what does?

In 2013 ? That was 8 years ago :rolleyes:

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

They have been. They went from losing to Westmeath and getting hammered regularly to winning a national league and Leinster championship. They're now competing at the top table. This would have been unimaginable prior to the funding.

Do you think over funding the smaller counties instead of the bigger counties might help them?

That was 8 years ago;)

breezy1985

superbluedub wrote: »

That was 8 years ago;)

Laois will be happy to hear they are now "top table"

ooter

Progress.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1060630/

breezy1985

ooter wrote: »

Progress.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1060630/

Time to split Laois in 2 I reckon

rebel girl 15

Enquiring wrote: »

So Kerry didn't have their own development plan drawn up and paid for them. Same as the Cork ladies. On the other hand, Dublin did have their own plan drawn up and funded for them. Hence why there's calls for splitting Dublin and not the others.

Best argument there to show that you don't need money to be successful - opposite of many posts.

Similar to Kilkenny when they were successful around 2000's - excellent development structures, which money can help, but money CANNOT buy.

You can employ as many GDO's as you like, but if they can't coach well, then there is no point. KK got former players in over their underage teams, they even published a training handbook for every single club team in the county - I got my hands on a copy of it.

If Cork men got their act together and were hugely successful, would you want to split their county? Or when the Kerry footballers were at their height? Split Kerry in half sure? Or when the Cork ladies were dominating at all age grades (ladies football had U14, U16, minor and Sen B championships and we had one year where we only lost the U14 Munster final, won every other title including U14 All Ireland through the backdoor).

All this rubbish on here about true supporters of the game etc, what nonsense. Call a spade a spade as some of this is typical Irish begrudgery - Dublin are successful so lets knock them off their pedestal - lets cut their funding, lets split them in half etc etc. I'm getting to the point as a poster on here (without my mod hat on) that for three or four years the same stuff is posted by people behind a screen. My question is besides moaning about it on here, what are you actually doing? The structures of the GAA are there to be used for change, have any of you submitted motions to your clubs? Your clubs submit that motion to your county and up the chain?

If you put a plan in place, you can attract money - it is hard work, but many county boards seem to be interested in big money from sponsorship only. I'd look at Roscommon as an example with their Win a Home draws - €943,000 income two years ago and just over €900,000 this time despite Covid and issues with the GB side of the draw - that is profit btw. Roscommon wouldn't be a big county but that's not bad fundraising by any means. So should Roscommon be deducted that from the Games Development funding since some of the money is going to find the Dermot Earley Centre of Participation??? What is stopping other counties from doing the exact same and raising their own funds? Nothing.

Biggest number of potential players are in Dublin therefore they will get a larger figure, which should be roughly the same per head as other counties - which I think was disproportionate but is now levelling out.

Biggest number of potential jersey buyers - therefore Dublin will always attract top money for sponsorship of jerseys.

SheepsClothing

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Best argument there to show that you don't need money to be successful - opposite of many posts.

Similar to Kilkenny when they were successful around 2000's - excellent development structures, which money can help, but money CANNOT buy.

The sport is entirely different than it was in the 2000's. The very best intercounty GAA teams are increasingly operating at a professional in all, but name way. In order to train and prepare and develop talent like a professional team,you need money end of story. It is no coincidence that two teams that have emerged as dominant forces in both football and hurling are two of the best funded counties in Ireland.

Now you might ask, why pick on Dublin and not Limerick? For one, Limerick are as of yet, nowhere near as dominant as Dublin (6 AI in a row, 15 of the last 16 Leinsters, average winning margin rising every year). Secondly, Dublin's natural advantages (Quarter of countries population and growing, massive sponsorship potential, vast, vast majority of games at home, no long travel for training) make it so, Dublin winning and continuing to win is an inevitability rather than a likelihood. Thirdly, the team winning all Irelands now by bigger winning margins than ever before, is an almost completely new team, from the 2011 all Ireland winners.

If Cork men got their act together and were hugely successful, would you want to split their county? Or when the Kerry footballers were at their height? Split Kerry in half sure? Or when the Cork ladies were dominating at all age grades (ladies football had U14, U16, minor and Sen B championships and we had one year where we only lost the U14 Munster final, won every other title including U14 All Ireland through the backdoor).

If Cork had a quarter of the countries population, a split would be necessary yes. The Kerry footballers or the Kilkenny hurlers for that matter, at no point in their history had the advantages Dublin have now. We have to be able to read the tea leaves here and acknowledge that there is not going to be a natural decline for Dublin football. This is forever, or until something is done to stop it.

All this rubbish on here about true supporters of the game etc, what nonsense. Call a spade a spade as some of this is typical Irish begrudgery - Dublin are successful so lets knock them off their pedestal - lets cut their funding, lets split them in half etc etc. I'm getting to the point as a poster on here (without my mod hat on) that for three or four years the same stuff is posted by people behind a screen. My question is besides moaning about it on here, what are you actually doing? The structures of the GAA are there to be used for change, have any of you submitted motions to your clubs? Your clubs submit that motion to your county and up the chain?

As I'm from Dublin and my club is a Dublin club, I will not, for obvious reasons be submitting any motions to my club for Dublin's funding to be cut or for Dublin to be split.

If you put a plan in place, you can attract money - it is hard work, but many county boards seem to be interested in big money from sponsorship only. I'd look at Roscommon as an example with their Win a Home draws - €943,000 income two years ago and just over €900,000 this time despite Covid and issues with the GB side of the draw - that is profit btw. Roscommon wouldn't be a big county but that's not bad fundraising by any means. So should Roscommon be deducted that from the Games Development funding since some of the money is going to find the Dermot Earley Centre of Participation??? What is stopping other counties from doing the exact same and raising their own funds? Nothing.

Why should counties have to go hat in hand all over the world to trying raise enough money to compete, while Dublin through GAA funding and sponsorship, get it handed to them on a silver platter?

Enquiring

superbluedub wrote: »

That was 8 years ago;)

Dublin seniors were getting regular beatings in the Leinster hurling championship. 15 point defeats in 2003 and 2004, lost to Laois by 12 in 2005 and lost to Westmeath in 2006.

Things started improving in 2007, lost to Wexford by a point. In 2008, Dublin beat Westmeath by 19 points, a big turnaround from 2 years before. Obviously, new players coming through were making a big difference. Some key results since then; they beat Wexford in 2009 and made their way into a Leinster final. 2010, beat Clare by 13 points. 2011, beat Offaly and Galway to get to Leinster final, beat Limerick to get to an All Ireland semi final, they also beat Kilkenny by 12 points to win the National hurling league that year. In 2013, Dublin beat Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway to win their first ever Leinster hurling title featuring mostly Dublin players. Beat Limerick in 2015. Beat Wexford by 13 points in 2016. Beat Galway in 2019.

u20/21 hurling

Dublin had won 2 Leinster u21 titles in the 60's and 70's and only had been in 1 other Leinster final.

They've been in 10 Leinster finals post funding and won 4 of them.

Minor hurling

Dublin won a Leinster minor championship in 1983 but were only in 4 other finals since the 70's.

Post funding, they've been in 11 finals, winning 6 of them and 1 All Ireland.

Club hurling

In club hurling, Dublin reached 5 Leinster finals since the competition began in 1970, winning 1.

Dublin clubs have been in 7 Leinster finals since funding, winning 2 and 2 All Ireland's.

ooter

Dublin's natural advantages (Quarter of countries population and growing, massive sponsorship potential, vast, vast majority of games at home, no long travel for training) make it so, Dublin winning and continuing to win is an inevitability rather than a likelihood.

Laois mustn't have got the memo.

Enquiring

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Best argument there to show that you don't need money to be successful - opposite of many posts.

Similar to Kilkenny when they were successful around 2000's - excellent development structures, which money can help, but money CANNOT buy.

You can employ as many GDO's as you like, but if they can't coach well, then there is no point. KK got former players in over their underage teams, they even published a training handbook for every single club team in the county - I got my hands on a copy of it.

If Cork men got their act together and were hugely successful, would you want to split their county? Or when the Kerry footballers were at their height? Split Kerry in half sure? Or when the Cork ladies were dominating at all age grades (ladies football had U14, U16, minor and Sen B championships and we had one year where we only lost the U14 Munster final, won every other title including U14 All Ireland through the backdoor).

All this rubbish on here about true supporters of the game etc, what nonsense. Call a spade a spade as some of this is typical Irish begrudgery - Dublin are successful so lets knock them off their pedestal - lets cut their funding, lets split them in half etc etc. I'm getting to the point as a poster on here (without my mod hat on) that for three or four years the same stuff is posted by people behind a screen. My question is besides moaning about it on here, what are you actually doing? The structures of the GAA are there to be used for change, have any of you submitted motions to your clubs? Your clubs submit that motion to your county and up the chain?

If you put a plan in place, you can attract money - it is hard work, but many county boards seem to be interested in big money from sponsorship only. I'd look at Roscommon as an example with their Win a Home draws - €943,000 income two years ago and just over €900,000 this time despite Covid and issues with the GB side of the draw - that is profit btw. Roscommon wouldn't be a big county but that's not bad fundraising by any means. So should Roscommon be deducted that from the Games Development funding since some of the money is going to find the Dermot Earley Centre of Participation??? What is stopping other counties from doing the exact same and raising their own funds? Nothing.

Biggest number of potential players are in Dublin therefore they will get a larger figure, which should be roughly the same per head as other counties - which I think was disproportionate but is now levelling out.

Biggest number of potential jersey buyers - therefore Dublin will always attract top money for sponsorship of jerseys.

What are you talking about money cannot buy development structures? It already has been shown that money has bought Dublin unbelievable development structures, across multiple sports across the globe, billions are invested in developing talent, are they all wasting their money? Are you trying to claim that having 1.5 million to spend on coaches every year is not an incredible resource to have?

No one is calling for any other county to be split because they weren't drawn up a detailed plan and then provided millions to put it in place. It's as simple as that. Other counties have gained success naturally, if Dublin had done the same, there wouldn't be an issue.

It's not just the men's and women senior footballers by the way. It's about 100 titles won across the board post funding. And that will continue. Are you in favour of one county having close to 10 million to spend on wages and development alone?

It's up to all of us to stand up and spread this as far as we can. Make representations to our clubs and county boards, this has already been stated. Busting the myths, lies and deflection of those in favour of the financial disparity is very important in all of this.

What was stopping Dublin from raising their own funds? While every other county had to work with what they had and compete with volunteers, Dublin were given millions to gain access to professionals to oversee their development scheme.

Cork have a similar amount of youth teams and players to Dublin and half the population, they have had access to fractions of the coaches provided for Dublin. The gap between Cork in second and Fermanagh in last is quite small in terms of funding over the past 20 years. The only major gap is between Dublin and everyone else. This has obviously helped with standards, which leads to improvements in marketability, which leads to an increase in sponsorship. 2.3 million per year for Dublin at the last count.

It's crazy levels of finance available. That's why the split must happen.

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

What are you talking about money cannot buy development structures? It already has been shown that money has bought Dublin unbelievable development structures, across multiple sports across the globe, billions are invested in developing talent, are they all wasting their money? Are you trying to claim that having 1.5 million to spend on coaches every year is not an incredible resource to have?

No one is calling for any other county to be split because they weren't drawn up a detailed plan and then provided millions to put it in place. It's as simple as that. Other counties have gained success naturally, if Dublin had done the same, there wouldn't be an issue.

It's not just the men's and women senior footballers by the way. It's about 100 titles won across the board post funding. And that will continue. Are you in favour of one county having close to 10 million to spend on wages and development alone?

It's up to all of us to stand up and spread this as far as we can. Make representations to our clubs and county boards, this has already been stated. Busting the myths, lies and deflection of those in favour of the financial disparity is very important in all of this.

What was stopping Dublin from raising their own funds? Why did they have to go running to Bertie Ahern? While every other county had to work with what they had and compete with volunteers, Dublin were given millions to gain access to professionals to oversee their development scheme.

Cork have a similar amount of youth teams and players to Dublin and half the population, they have had access to fractions of the coaches provided for Dublin. The gap between Cork in second and Fermanagh in last is quite small in terms of funding over the past 20 years. The only major gap is between Dublin and everyone else. This has obviously helped with standards, which leads to improvements in marketability, which leads to an increase in sponsorship. 2.3 million per year for Dublin at the last count.

It's crazy levels of finance available. That's why the split must happen.

Nah the split doesnt have to happen , and it wont happen anytime soon .

Past30Now

Enquiring wrote: »

In 2013, Dublin beat Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway to win their first ever Leinster hurling title featuring mostly Dublin players.

I've said this earlier, and don't like to selectively quote somebody, but by linking this win to GPO funding, you are actively undermining your case. As juvenile hurlers, the GPO didn't exist for these guys. This team was an older experienced team who had improved over the previous couple of years, gotten in an experienced management team, and had the season of their lives. This has nothing to do with GPO funding.

SheepsClothing

Past30Now wrote: »

I've said this earlier, and don't like to selectively quote somebody, but by linking this win to GPO funding, you are actively undermining your case. As juvenile hurlers, the GPO didn't exist for these guys. This team was an older experienced team who had improved over the previous couple of years, gotten in an experienced management team, and had the season of their lives. This has nothing to do with GPO funding.

It's not a zero sum game. Every cent of GDO funding was money that Dublin GAA didn't have to put into games development themselves. Allowing them to put money towards the coaching of elite senior and youth teams. Most counties don't have this luxury, they're too busy fighting fires.

ooter

Or too busy wasting millions on vanity projects, partly funded by the gaa, but that seems to be fine.

Enquiring

Past30Now wrote: »

I've said this earlier, and don't like to selectively quote somebody, but by linking this win to GPO funding, you are actively undermining your case. As juvenile hurlers, the GPO didn't exist for these guys. This team was an older experienced team who had improved over the previous couple of years, gotten in an experienced management team, and had the season of their lives. This has nothing to do with GPO funding.

I don't know if you're just thinking back and remembering it as an old, experienced team and forgetting the reality but the facts just don't back up your assertion.

The funding in Dublin began in 2002. Dublin won their first Leinster minor hurling title for decades in 2005, they won another one in 2007. They won their first Leinster u21 title since the early 70's in 2007, they won 2 more in 2010 and 2011.

Look at the players who played in the senior Leinster title win in 2013, how many of them won underage titles? These players for sure:

P Kelly, P Schutte, L Rushe, J McCaffrey, J Boland, D Sutcliffe, D Treacy, M Schutte, S Durkin and then others came through the system.

There were a few imports from Galway and Tipperary who obviously didn't come through the system, maybe that's where you're getting confused?

I know it takes away from the victory and it's something that is hard to accept but without the increase in standards at underage, caused by the increase in funding, Dublin would not have won that provincial title.

The thing is, promoting hurling in weaker counties like Dublin were is something we all want. It all goes back to the question of why was this limited to a Dublin only scheme. We all should be angry at those who made this decision.

Enquiring

SheepsClothing wrote: »

It's not a zero sum game. Every cent of GDO funding was money that Dublin GAA didn't have to put into games development themselves. Allowing them to put money towards the coaching of elite senior and youth teams. Most counties don't have this luxury, they're too busy fighting fires.

Exactly. The funding that they've been receiving for 2 decades and are still receiving, allows for money to be spent elsewhere. In the places you've outlined but also on things like highly paid marketing managers and other employees. In 2016, Dublin spent over 2 million just on wages and salaries. It's a highly financed professional machine operating in an amateur sport.

gourcuff

surely the financial doping argument has been broadly accepted at this point (outside the vested interests), the question i wonder about is will John Connellans strategy for significant reform at Congress in 2022 actually get the support it needs. Seems like a lot of people have their head in the sand on the issue when you read the county chairmen comments..

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

I don't know if you're just thinking back and remembering it as an old, experienced team and forgetting the reality but the facts just don't back up your assertion.

The funding in Dublin began in 2002. Dublin won their first Leinster minor hurling title for decades in 2005, they won another one in 2007. They won their first Leinster u21 title since the early 70's in 2007, they won 2 more in 2010 and 2011.

Look at the players who played in the senior Leinster title win in 2013, how many of them won underage titles? These players for sure:

P Kelly, P Schutte, L Rushe, J McCaffrey, J Boland, D Sutcliffe, D Treacy, M Schutte, S Durkin and then others came through the system.

There were a few imports from Galway and Tipperary who obviously didn't come through the system, maybe that's where you're getting confused?

I know it takes away from the victory and it's something that is hard to accept but without the increase in standards at underage, caused by the increase in funding, Dublin would not have won that provincial title.

The thing is, promoting hurling in weaker counties like Dublin were is something we all want. It all goes back to the question of why was this limited to a Dublin only scheme. We all should be angry at those who made this decision.

Why was it a dublin only scheme, let me see

Well the GAA knew there was an issue with dublin participation, so something was going to be done there regardless.

The GAA also knew that previous GD projects had been a bit of a farce - See Nicky Brennan’s comments re how counties had spent GD money on inter county

So something different was trialled. Like any trial project you don’t do something across the board until you know it is viable. That minimises the risk, which based on previous experience was a very real concern. Forcing the clubs to put their hand in their own pockets had a similar effect, with the GAA only funding half the personnel effectively.

How long to get to that point of knowing it’s viable? Well as has already been pointed out this about participation at school level so it will realistically be a few years. In spite of your very poor time travel stuff it’s not immediate I’m afraid

It also involves a huge amount of oversight, again given the Leinster council wasn’t exactly trusting of how GD funds had been used historically, which explains a portion of the resources used - for this see the leinster council minutes that were referenced in previous posts

Could it have been rolled out elsewhere sooner, possibly, built I’d argue not that much sooner, possibly 2-4 years, ie maybe 2013 instead of 2017, though some other posters have engaged in fair and respectful debate on what the timeline could have been. Personally I’d argue that is a reasonable point to say things seem to be working or not. Would it have meant dublins funding would have been cut faster? Unlikely, the funding needs to sustain a project if its working, the current pace achieves this.

Why wasn’t it expanded sooner? I think the reaction to dublins blue wave plan may be telling here. Even at that stage many in the GAA didn’t take dublins ambition seriously - put simply dublin took the opportunity to evolve seriously when many expected some sort of half baked effort. Only when the leaps dublin had made with their structures was undeniable did anyone sit up. Funnily enough that’s also when lots of people who (I) knew exactly what had been happening and (II) had every opportunity to object or look to expand the project suddenly decided it was terribly unfair

Is this different to other GAA projects? Possibly in scale, which is necessary to some degree given dublins population but not apart from that. East Leinster and Belfast also benefit from targeted programmes. I’m sure posters may be aware of others.

All stuff that’s already repeated as nauseum throughout this thread

SheepsClothing

superbluedub wrote: »

In 2013 ? That was 8 years ago :rolleyes:

The last time anyone, other than Dublin lifted Sam Maguire was 7 years ago. :rolleyes:

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Why was it a dublin only scheme, let me see

Well the GAA knew there was an issue with dublin participation, so something was going to be done there regardless.

The GAA also knew that previous GD projects had been a bit of a farce - See Nicky Brennan’s comments re how counties had spent GD money on inter county

So something different was trialled. Like any trial project you don’t do something across the board until you know it is viable. That minimises the risk, which based on previous experience was a very real concern. Forcing the clubs to put their hand in their own pockets had a similar effect, with the GAA only funding half the personnel effectively.

How long to get to that point of knowing it’s viable? Well as has already been pointed out this about participation at school level so it will realistically be a few years. In spite of your very poor time travel stuff it’s not immediate I’m afraid

It also involves a huge amount of oversight, again given the Leinster council wasn’t exactly trusting of how GD funds had been used historically, which explains a portion of the resources used - for this see the leinster council minutes that were referenced in previous posts

Could it have been rolled out elsewhere sooner, possibly, built I’d argue not that much sooner, possibly 2-4 years, ie maybe 2013 instead of 2017, though some other posters have engaged in fair and respectful debate on what the timeline could have been. Personally I’d argue that is a reasonable point to say things seem to be working or not. Would it have meant dublins funding would have been cut faster? Unlikely, the funding needs to sustain a project if its working, the current pace achieves this.

Why wasn’t it expanded sooner? I think the reaction to dublins blue wave plan may be telling here. Even at that stage many in the GAA didn’t take dublins ambition seriously - put simply dublin took the opportunity to evolve seriously when many expected some sort of half baked effort. Only when the leaps dublin had made with their structures was undeniable did anyone sit up. Funnily enough that’s also when lots of people who (I) knew exactly what had been happening and (II) had every opportunity to object or look to expand the project suddenly decided it was terribly unfair

Is this different to other GAA projects? Possibly in scale, which is necessary to some degree given dublins population but not apart from that. East Leinster and Belfast also benefit from targeted programmes. I’m sure posters may be aware of others.

All stuff that’s already repeated as nauseum throughout this thread

It was a Dublin only scheme because as Sean Kelly stated, the GAA viewed Dublin as an opportunity. That opportunity was to increase profits. Improving results in Dublin GAA would lead to higher attendances and interest which would aid the GAA. As we already know, every county has its own issues and many were in a far worse state than Dublin so the Dublin deserving special treatment argument has already been busted.

Rather than this being a Dublin plan, it was created by the Strategic review committee. Then it was funded by the GAA and taxpayers. The aim of the plan worked. Standards in Dublin increased dramatically and the GAA gained financially. The obvious problem here being, the governing body of a sport planning and funding a plan for one team to the detriment of all others.

Prior to the Dublin only scheme, the spend on games development was very small but no one was underfunded or no one was over funded. This changed when Dublin began receiving an increased amount in 2002, far above everyone else. This wasn't enough though and Dublin had people in powerful positions who were able to grant them state funds that increased their funding to an enormous level. Throughout the noughties especially, they dwarfed development funding available to other counties and as we know, they remain over funded compared with the vast majority. The Nicky Brennan comments you refer to were long after the plan was drawn up and funded for Dublin and were in relation to tiny amounts in comparison as we know. That's another invention of yours busted.

The development money was used to increase participation and also increase standards at elite level. Coaches going into schools and teaching skills early is an obvious advantage of the scheme as well as attracting more players to clubs. The coaches were employed by the clubs however and this is where they coached other coaches, coaches teams, organised cul camps, put on advanced sessions etc. As has been noted by senior Dublin GAA officials, these coaches completely transformed standards at elite level all across various codes.

The post you quoted gives a good indicator to what changes they made to standards in hurling, numerous underage titles which led to senior success which would have been unthinkable pre funding. This unprecedented upturn in results were replicated in club hurling and football, underage football and ladies and mens senior football.

The results off the field have been even more dramatic. With increased success, the sponsorship levels grew hugely. A total sponsorship of 2.3 million yearly has been reported by Dublin GAA. They also spend over 2 million on wages and salaries, over 2 million on expenses, most years over 1.5 million on team preparations that doesn't include much travel expenses and in 2019, they spent 3.8 million on games development. An enormous number, continuing to dwarf every other county.

Fair competitions can't exist when one county are competing with this level of resources. If spreading the scheme to other counties begun in the noughties then it could have been recoverable, attempting to now is far too late. We can look back and investigate how the over funding of one county was allowed to happen. The governing body of a sport bankrolling one participant above all others is unheard of and obviously an outrageous and disgraceful act. But the important thing is to look forward. We can still recover from this. Right the wrongs of the past. Splitting Dublin is the obvious first step but increasing development funding across the country is vital.

tritium

SheepsClothing wrote: »

The last time anyone, other than Dublin lifted Sam Maguire was 7 years ago. :rolleyes:

The cork ladies won 11 in 12 years, Kilkenny hurlers won 8 in 10. The world and the GAA didn’t end then and it won’t end now just because it’s the dublin footballers (and let’s be honest this is about the dublin senior footballers no matter how much folks try to shoehorn in other dublin teams)

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

The cork ladies won 11 in 12 years, Kilkenny hurlers won 8 in 10. The world and the GAA didn’t end then and it won’t end now just because it’s the dublin footballers (and let’s be honest this is about the dublin senior footballers no matter how much folks try to shoehorn in other dublin teams)

The Cork ladies or Kilkenny hurlers didn't have 2 decades of huge funding pumped into developing players within their counties. As you know, that's why the calls for them to be split weren't happening. Dublin have won about 100 titles post funding across grades and codes. Trying to brush things under the carpet is not going to work but of course, the titles gained were just the inevitable outcome of the highly financed Dublin only scheme, the reason we have to take action is because of the plan being put in place to begin with.

ArielAtom

Contrary to the the opinion of some misguided folks her, the split will not happen.

Enquiring

ArielAtom wrote: »

Contrary to the the opinion of some misguided folks her, the split will not happen.

Well obviously the defenders of the financial disparity would like to think so. There's been some encouraging signs of late. The recent Irish independent poll showed a larger than expected number of county board chairmen voicing their support for change. It's how we effect that change is the question. Some believe that Dublin's funding should be cut, I'd be of the opinion that it should not be cut. Funding should remain in place in Dublin and spread amongst the 4 new counties post split. The advantages of this for everyone has already been outlined.

tritium

Enquiring wrote: »

The Cork ladies or Kilkenny hurlers didn't have 2 decades of huge funding pumped into developing players within their counties. As you know, that's why the calls for them to be split weren't happening. Dublin have won about 100 titles post funding across grades and codes. Trying to brush things under the carpet is not going to work but of course, the titles gained were just the inevitable outcome of the highly financed Dublin only scheme, the reason we have to take action is because of the plan being put in place to begin with.

Saying it over and over doesn’t make your carefully selected facts true or relevant. Your argument was holed below the waterline long ago.

The thing with dublin, kklkenny and cork is all three set themselves up properly for success. Fair play to all three of them

ooter

The governing body of a sport bankrolling one participant above all others is unheard of and obviously an outrageous and disgraceful act.

€50 million handed to cork gaa..
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-and-cork-board-move-to-clarify-cost-of-p%C3%A1irc-u%C3%AD-chaoimh-redevelopment-1.3736126

Enquiring

tritium wrote: »

Saying it over and over doesn’t make your carefully selected facts true or relevant. Your argument was holed below the waterline long ago.

The thing with dublin, kklkenny and cork is all three set themselves up properly for success. Fair play to all three of them

Do you have evidence to show that the Kilkenny hurlers and Cork ladies were drawn up and funded their own scheme? Do you have evidence for anything? You're saying my argument was holed long ago but you haven't produced anything to even scratch the surface.

On the other hand. I've provided hard evidence to show the level of funding Dublin received, why it was brought in, who devised the plan, where the money has gone, the impact it has had on standards across Dublin GAA, statements by Dublin GAA officials confirming where the money has gone and its impact on elite level players, figures showing that the funding wasn't distributed on a per capita basis, demonstrating how Croke Park is the Dublin footballers home ground......

I could go on but you get the message.

superbluedub

SheepsClothing wrote: »

The last time anyone, other than Dublin lifted Sam Maguire was 7 years ago. :rolleyes:

You were talking about Hurling , I responded
You moved the goalposts , Jesus Wept :rolleyes:

flasher0030

tritium wrote: »

Saying it over and over doesn’t make your carefully selected facts true or relevant. Your argument was holed below the waterline long ago.

The thing with dublin, kklkenny and cork is all three set themselves up properly for success. Fair play to all three of them

What Enquiring said was very relevant. That particular group of Kilkenny hurlers and Cork ladies were a special group and achieved success without the input of extraordinary amounts of funding. Dublin footballers achieved success but it was manufactured with hard cash. There is a big difference in their degree of success. You say fair play to the three of them - they set themselves up properly for success. No they didn't. Cork and Kilkenny did. But Dublin didn't set themselves up for success. The provision of money to them set them up for success. Kilkenny's reign came to an end and Corks will too. It's impossible to keep that level going. But it's different with Dublin. It's a conveyor belt now where the cash that was injected into Dublin GAA has just rolls out athletic player after athletic player, and then just need to fine tune their skills, diet, jobs etc. with all the backroom staff they have.

superbluedub

Enquiring wrote: »

Do you have evidence to show that the Kilkenny hurlers and Cork ladies were drawn up and funded their own scheme? Do you have evidence for anything? You're saying my argument was holed long ago but you haven't produced anything to even scratch the surface.

On the other hand. I've provided hard evidence to show the level of funding Dublin received, why it was brought in, who devised the plan, where the money has gone, the impact it has had on standards across Dublin GAA, statements by Dublin GAA officials confirming where the money has gone and its impact on elite level players, figures showing that the funding wasn't distributed on a per capita basis, demonstrating how Croke Park is the Dublin footballers home ground......

I could go on but you get the message.

Yep the message is loud and clear , You want Dublin split in 4 and your entitled to your opinion
However it is my opinion , this will not happen for a long time if ever

ooter

flasher0030 wrote: »

But it's different with Dublin. It's a conveyor belt now where the cash that was injected into Dublin GAA has just rolls out athletic player after athletic player, and then just need to fine tune their skills, diet, jobs etc. with all the backroom staff they have - and hey presto, you have the killing machine.

All killing machines have their weakness, in dublin's case it appears to be picking up a stick and sliotar.

gourcuff

superbluedub wrote: »

Nothing lasts forever , Dublin will be losing soon enough and hey presto you will have a new killing machine

this argument is patent nonsense, if a cyclist managed to beat lance armstrong once it wouldn't retrospectively justify all the doping he did..

david beating goliath in a one off game doesn't justify doping goliath to an inch of his life at the expense of all the other davids..

i think i've laboured the metaphor enough

flasher0030

superbluedub wrote: »

Nothing lasts forever , Dublin will be losing soon enough and hey presto you will have a new killing machine

Don't know what the wink is for. They have just won 6 in a row. And their main players are in their prime - O'Callaghan, Fenton, Kilkenny etc.
Like I say, it's a conveyor belt. There will be no new killing machine for some time. There will be the odd shock along the way and we'll hear the cries of Dublin are not invincible, and the chasing pack are catching up etc. But in reality Dublin will be the main team, and a significant step ahead of the chasing pack for many years to come.

superbluedub

gourcuff wrote: »

this argument is patent nonsense, if a cyclist managed to beat lance armstrong once it wouldn't retrospectively justify all the doping he did..

david beating goliath in a one off game doesn't justify doping goliath to an inch of his life at the expense of all the other davids..

i think i've laboured the metaphor enough

Whos arguing ?The only nonsense i see here is the Lance Armstrong rubbish :rolleyes:

flasher0030

ooter wrote: »

All killing machines have their weakness, in dublin's case it appears to be picking up a stick and sliotar.

Man, you are some serious deflector. Can't be taking what you say serious at all. All you do is go off on a tangent about the hurlers, about Laois, about Meath winning All-Irelands soon. Why don't you just stick with reality and the main focus, not going off to your fairy-tale world.
You're talking as if the hurlers and the footballers are the one team. They aren't, just in case you are not aware. This has been repeated over and over again. Please tell me it sticks with you this time. The hurlers have come from a much lower base i.e they were winning nothing 10, 15 years ago. They improved somewhat with the funding but not enough to win all-irelands. The footballers were up close to the top-tier for many years - in the top 7 or 8 maybe, on average. Maybe higher. The excessive funding has pushed them on to be top dog.
Also football has also been the dominant GAA sport historically in the Capital - over hurling, more of the funding would have gone towards football than hurling.

And to make it even simpler for you to understand. If €17m was given to Kilkenny hurlers, they would rule for decades. If €17m was given to bring on Kilkenny football over a 12 year period, they wouldn't win an Ireland to save their lives.

Compo82

Up to 2017 you could have said Dublin were beatable on the day, but they have actually pulled ahead and rather than the pack catching up. It might be awhile before some team catches them. In reality maybe, only one team is capable of beating them and that is still probably Kerry despite their loss to Cork this year.

Mayo, Donegal and Tyrone are too far away. I wonder at what stage the GAA goes right that's enough. 8,9 or 10 in row? They might get stopped one year but they might win 3-4 in a row again after that.

I'm not too sure am I in favour of splitting them, but a few things should happen straight away. All Leinster games should be held outside of Croke Park apart from the Leinster final. Super 8 games outside of Croke Park and all home league games in Parnell Park. Also the funding need to be evened out straight away and more support should be given to other counties. This might make zero difference but at least it's a start and might show some less favouritism, because at the moment the GAA seem to be doing everything to have a strong Dublin.

Enquiring

flasher0030 wrote: »

Don't know what the wink is for. They have just won 6 in a row. And their main players are in their prime - O'Callaghan, Fenton, Kilkenny etc.
Like I say, it's a conveyor belt. There will be no new killing machine for some time. There will be the odd shock along the way and we'll hear the cries of Dubolin are not invincible, and the chasing pack are catching up etc. But in reality Dublin will be the main team, and a significant step ahead of the chasing pack for many years to come.

Dublin GAA now spend nearly 4 million per year on player development. It's inevitable that success will continue across the board with that level of finance.

ArielAtom

flasher0030 wrote: »

Man, you are some serious deflector. Can't be taking what you say serious at all. All you do is go off on a tangent about the hurlers, about Laois, about Meath winning All-Irelands soon. Why don't you just stick with reality and the main focus, not going off to your fairy-tale world.
You're talking as if the hurlers and the footballers are the one team. They aren't, just in case you are not aware. This has been repeated over and over again. Please tell me it sticks with you this time. The hurlers have come from a much lower base i.e they were winning nothing 10, 15 years ago. They improved somewhat with the funding but not enough to win all-irelands. The footballers were up close to the top-tier for many years - in the top 7 or 8 maybe, on average. Maybe higher. The excessive funding has pushed them on to be top dog.
Also football has also been the dominant GAA sport historically in the Capital - over hurling, more of the funding would have gone towards football than hurling.

And to make it even simpler for you to understand. If €17m was given to Kilkenny hurlers, they would rule for decades. If €17m was given to bring on Kilkenny football over a 12 year period, they wouldn't win an Ireland to save their lives.

A simple fact you don't seem to comprehend is the funding in the Dublin only project which I am not saying didn't happen was for games development, that was based on the school going children numbers, not the registered GAA players. Dublin GAA did not get 17m to develop their senior football team contrary to some people misguided comprehension of what the funding was for. The development was for all four codes, I was involved in running an academy in my club for a number of years and both codes were dealt with for boys, I was only involved with the girls football, but again both codes were dealt with there as well. We initially made a mistake in running them one after another on a Saturday morning, some kids opted out of hurling, mainly due to not liking being hit with a hurl, we changed format and incorporated both codes into one session and increased playing numbers. But lets stop with the bull that 17m was spent on a senior football team. That is a lie.

superbluedub

Compo82 wrote: »

Up to 2017 you could have said Dublin were beatable on the day, but they have actually pulled ahead and rather than the pack catching up. It might be awhile before some team catches them. In reality maybe, only one team is capable of beating them and that is still probably Kerry despite their loss to Cork this year.

Mayo, Donegal and Tyrone are too far away. I wonder at what stage the GAA goes right that's enough. 8,9 or 10 in row? They might get stopped one year but they might win 3-4 in a row again after that.

I'm not too sure am I in favour of splitting them, but a few things should happen straight away. All Leinster games should be held outside of Croke Park apart from the Leinster final. Super 8 games outside of Croke Park and all home league games in Parnell Park. Also the funding need to be evened out straight away and more support should be given to other counties. This might make zero difference but at least it's a start and might show some less favouritism, because at the moment the GAA seem to be doing everything to have a strong Dublin.

Kerry could and should have beaten Dublin in 2019
They might have gone on to beat them in 2020 , but took Cork for granted
They wont make that mistake in 2021
Mayo gave Dublin a good rattle in 2020 with a very young exciting team
and will improve for sure in 2021
Tyrone under new management wont be far away
Donegal on there day are a match for anyone including DUblin
Agreed 100% about Leinster games in Crokepark and super 8 games etc
Funding is being addressed .