The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Happyilylost

odyssey06 wrote: »

Taking over a loan that another party cannot repay, and restructuring it with a below market value interest rate in that party's favour is a bail out.

This didn't happen.

Fann Linn

Happyilylost wrote: »

I asked where they bailed Galway Gaa out? They took over the loan. Galway Gaa are still paying it back. Just to Croke Park instead.

Never said Dublin have a free stadium. Dublin still shouldn't be playing so many games in it.

Donegal had a solution for that but ye laughed at them.
The Leinster counties could drag Dublin outta Croker every year bit they're afraid of missing out on the cash.
Fans calling for Dublin to be taken from Croker cannot have their cake and also eat it.

odyssey06

Happyilylost wrote: »

This didn't happen.

GAA’s Central Council having to take over a loan on an Athenry site, which has since been sold at considerable loss, that Galway had hoped to develop into a training facility.

How is that not a bail out? Why did Central Council have to take over a loan, if Galway could pay it off?

Fann Linn

odyssey06 wrote: »

GAA’s Central Council having to take over a loan on an Athenry site, which has since been sold at considerable loss, that Galway had hoped to develop into a training facility.

How is that not a bail out?

Because its not Dublin.

dunnerc

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Yes, and they are now a level above the level they were at then. They've gone from winning by a point to 10 point annihilation

Are they though ? is there even a tiny possibility that the rest have gone backwards slightly ? :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Louth won an AI in 1957.
Dublin received 13 times more GDF than Cork despite only 2.5 times the population. There's your reason. They also received a free stadium.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Jesus that would be awful convenient if a post was deleted that was a complete figment of your imagination.

---

While you are sleeping you can mull over the questions I've posed:

How have Dublin been handed a free stadium?

Why don't you care about the GAA bailing out other counties like Cork and Galway and thus, taking funding from Carlow and Leitrim?

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion flopped.

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post - life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive for it's size (dublin prices) and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin is to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster Council afloat.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

BonnieSituation

Donnielighto wrote: »

Because cork and galway screwing around like they did doesn't stop too many supporters losing interest, the level of Dublin dominance is bad for the viewnunbers of the GAA overall.


The stadium thing is obvious isn't it, I presume it's due to Parnell not being invested in and Dublin being given the run of CP for championship which was built with central funds directly from a central budget.

If the stadium thing is so "obvious" as you say then it shouldn't be hard to explain how dublinhave gotten a "free" stadium?

I'll keep asking it until it's answered.

It's noticeable how the critics and their assertions keep mving the goalposts when they're challenged on their bull.


---


How have Dublin gotten a "free" stadium?


Is the financial mismanageent and underachievement of Cork and Galway not of concern to anyone as it impinges on the finances available for developing counties?

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive for it's size (dublin prices) and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin is to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster Council afloat.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

I appreciate you answering but I would have thought those making the assertions should back themselves, no?

BonnieSituation

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Leinster hurling championship 2002.

Laois 1-12 Wicklow 0-09

Westmeath 1-14 Kildare 1-10

Carlow 0-09 Meath 1-09

Meath 2-16 Laois 1-18

Westmeath 1-12 Dublin 2-12

Dublin 1-24 Meath 2-12

Wexford 3-15 Dublin 2-12

Fun fact:
Meath player Nicky Horan was the 3rd top scorer in the championship with a tally of 4-20.

There's a few results from 2002. Dublin, Meath, Laois, Westmeath and Carlow were around a similar level. If Meath got the special money treatment for hurling we could be up there with the likes of Laois. So a few other counties like Westmeath and Kildare. I've a feeling the GAA don't give two ****s about hurling in our counties however.

So your response to Bonniedog is a game that Dublin won 17 years ago? Am I missing something here?

Strumms

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster council a float.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

That’s not an agenda that’s going to feed into the narrative of ‘stop Dublin winning’. Feed into the narrative of ....

Hang on, wait, Dublin are renting Croke Park ? Look Mossy I told ya, buying success :D:D

If they get it free booooo, if they pay.... boooooo.... if they play in a small stadium, windswept and unaccommodating to the fans and not meeting anywhere near the demand for tickets so people who are passionate about the sport first of all AND Dublin can go and enjoy, then..... yay ??? :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I appreciate you answering but I would have thought those making the assertions should back themselves, no?

They won't sure- and it will just go around in circles - now at least my post can be referred to.
It is all there for them in black and white - even a bit of bold!

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They won't sure- and it will just go around in circles - now at least my post can be referred to.
It is all there for them in black and white - even a bit of bold!

But I was really enjoying the squirming.

bruschi

This thread is some car crash. The amount of mis information on both sides of whatever argument are unreal. The worst thing though is peddling things as if they are facts when it is speculation or just general thought rehashed as some set in stone point of fact.

Dublin have benefited from a number of things. Firstly, their natural advantages which no one can do anything about other than Dublin making best use of them. Population, general financing and advertising power, location to the majority of employment in the country meaning no need for population to leave the county, access to a multitude of facilities from public areas or third level institutions and so on. They have natural hindrances too, congestive traffic, hard for clubs to purchase their own lands, other sports. I wouldnt say these balance out, as the advantages far outweigh the cons, but it would be remiss to say they have it all their own way.

The next level of advantage comes from Croke Park as a home ground. There is no doubt this is a massive advantage. But, bar early round Leinster games, there is no real way to change this. Croke Park is our national stadium and it happens to be in Dublin. It must also be stated that this farcical line of "delegates vote for Dublin to play there" is ridiculous. Delegates were told their funding would be cut if they voted to remove Dublin from Croke Park. With threats like that, what do you do? Or what about when Dublin drew Laois and it was fixed for Kilkenny to "cope with the crowd" yet the crowd was less than what Portlaois could have held and Dublin have subsequently played in Portlaois with no issues over crowds. Croke Park as a semi permanent home ground is a fantastic facility, no need to build or upgrade a stadium and having the national stadium as recognisable as any ground helps. It doesnt win games, but it helps.

Lastly, the GAA implemented a new coaching program and used Dublin as the template. It was to have clubs pay 50% of costs of having a full time coach in their club. This started long before it was being made available to other counties, by at least 10 years. So clubs and conversely the county has had a 10 year head start on full time professional coaching. To try say this has had no affect on Dublin is pure head in the sand stuff. It also doesnt make them win games, but you add in so many factors that create the disparity, this to me is what pushed it over the edge.

The East Leinster program is something started within the last 3 years initially starting in urban areas in Meath, Kildare, Wexford and Laois (and maybe Wicklow, cant quite recall) and has somewhat spread to rural areas. It gives clubs the opportunity to apply for part of a full time coach, so they would be shared with other clubs. Some have the ability to have a single club coach too though. However this is not widespread and is on application basis and I know in Wexford after the next round there will be a hold on any more investment in it. this is down to Leinster council. I was privy to a development plan which sought funding similar to what was given to Dublin about 7 or 8 years ago and it was turned down. The very same plan and application, with a few amendments has subsequently now been incorporated into the East Leinster project.

Dublin should be split, but it wont. Smaller counties should be amalgamated, but they wont. The whole county border and provincial set up is from an era that does not fit in competitive sport. Our country is too small to sustain a 32 team competition. It is also why it can never be professional. If anyone looked at the set up now and wanted to start from scratch, you would not keep any of the current set up in any way shape or form. But it is what it is, and history is an important part of the GAA.

So what can be done to bridge the divide? The first thing is to push on ideas like the East Leinster Project and make that bigger and available to more clubs and counties. It will be interesting to see how the counties now getting it in Leinster fare against each other and the ones not involved. A huge investment was made in Dublin to coaching structures and this needs to be replicated. I dont think it will do anything in the medium term, counties are at least 10 if not 15 years behind in this. The natural advantages will still remain, clubs in Dublin operate on bigger finances and numbers than some counties, but the GAA contributed to an already top heavy county and pushed them on even further. There is this perception that Dublin were in the wilderness between 1995 and 2011 when nothing could be further from the truth.

This piece here goes through a lot of the above and the "Perfect Storm". It isnt one particular thing that has Dublin where it is, it is a lot of them at once. But the thing is, this is not a once off thing, this is a sustained thing. There is also a perception this Dublin team is aging and will fall back to the pack, but yet it is proven, through statistics, that the age profile of the team since 2011 has only once been an average over 27, and that was in 2016. Every other year the average age of the team and squad is between 25 and 27. They continuously replenish their side and for some reason people now think that despite them doing this successfully for 9 years that all of a sudden it wont happen now.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/the-kieran-shannon-interview-the-real-jackanory-behind-dublins-perfect-storm-942964.html

this Dublin team is exceptional. They will win the 5 in a row and I dont see them being beaten soon. Winning 53 of their last 56 championship games, 2 losses and 1 draw. You might catch them on the hop once every couple of years and who knows, maybe Kerry will catch them on the hop. But that will only make Dublin more determined next year. This dominance wont end soon.

On one hand, you have to admire the team and the great football they play and the history they will make. On the other hand, you weep for the competitiveness of the state of the game.

Strumms

^^^ smaller counties should be amalgamated, maybe Cork and Kerry can join forces and try and beat Dublin ?

RoscommonTom

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

BonnieSituation

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Would it?

So then other counties can píss it up against the wall?

Donnielighto

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But then the arguments about Dublin in CP can move onto how Dublin "wasted money on a stadium".

We can't win ya see.

It is an advantage, I'm not saying I don't see why it's there but it is disingenous the amount of posters that gloss over it's.

Also regarding the idea that Dublin contribute to central funding to the central funding is there money anyway that's ridiculous, the GAA generates money at country and county levels. Central funds should be oro rata or strategic.

Dublin went from a basket case with potential to the best supported countyn in terms of provincial and central council support. It was a strategic decision that worked too well and now football is suffering.

Fann Linn

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Ye could buy a new bus Tom.

Donnielighto

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Not at all, all counties should be responsible for a large portion of their budget and only get central funds depending on how legitimately and effectively they spend it. Counties should be incentivised to earn their own crust, your model would have plenty of mismanaged leeches if there is nothing to get guys acting correctly.


As an aside the number if incompetent county boards is ridiculous.

bucketybuck

bruschi wrote: »

So what can be done to bridge the divide?

IMO the GAA shouldn't even be trying to bridge that divide, the genie is out of the bottle and now they are asking the wrong questions. They need to take a long step back and really ask themselves where they think the sport is going.

For example, if you wanted a GAA product that most resembles the game that has been played for the past century then you should not be looking at intercounty but at the clubs. But does the GAA give a single fart about the club scene? Of course not. They will spend 20 years dicking about with super 8's and super 16's and other mindless changes when if they spent 20 years building the club scene you could have a really good and competitive competition there.

odyssey06

RoscommonTom wrote: »

all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

I've no issue with a levy being put on all sponsorship deals of 25% to central HQ, as long as same applies to a county's fund-raising budget.

Mayo's six figure fund-raising activities I am sure Leitrim would like a cut of that?
2016 – €840,179
2015 – €600,086

Sponsorship deals and fund-raisers aren't just money for nothing, there's player and manager access etc so there has to be significant rewards for the county involved too.

rebel girl 15

I’d hate to see this thread if any of the “well informed” posters started discussing ladies football and Corks dominance winning six All Ireland’s in a row and ten in 11 years. These girls didn’t get expenses and some players were travelling two and three hours to training from within their own county, and girls were commuting from Dublin at their own expense. They didn’t have the luxuries that any male inter county team gets, like free gyms etc.

What happened in Cork was huge work with underage which resulted in a dominance at underage to feed to the senior team and a very special group of players coming together with the right management and a very clear objective. Many teams will only win one All Ireland and can’t retain it the following year because there is a 1% drop - players not doing that extra rep at training and when that goes across the squad you see a collective dip - not obvious to anyone inside or outside the organisation.

I’ve read a lot of GAA autobiographies and spoken to a lot of players - to keep a panel of 35 fellas happy is a very very hard task. If those lads outside the match day 26 stop pushing the lads who are subs, there is a drop off - looks insignificant but makes a huge difference. Fellas get a little comfortable.

There is a lot of commentary on here from posters who have never been inside a county team set up - let alone an All Ireland winning one, and a lot of “facts” that are being bandied about. This current Dublin dominance comes on the back of highly successful underage teams which they haven’t had recently. Kerry are the coming team with their minor team going something like 33 games unbeaten winning all around them.

Fair play to Dublin for getting their house in order - yes helped by Government funding but at that point in time Gaelic Games was in serious trouble in terms of numbers of players playing. Did it help - of course - you put a plan in place with funding it should work, but it still takes committed people. Do you need the funding to put it in place? To ensure all coaches are effectively coaching teams? It can be done - prime example is KK. Ten years ago, they were winning senior and u21 titles for fun or being at least into the semi final stage. The KK board produced a booklet 15 years ago or more where it laid out specific drills, the importance of recovery and nutrition free of charge to clubs - I got my hands on one and I was seriously impressed. Cork have come through into the minor AI and won the U20 this month - few years ago the board finally got their act together with regards the structure of Gaelic games within the county. That’s proof of putting a structure in place and it will reap rewards - Kerry have a huge centre of excellence that definitely helped with their minor footballers dominance, which now doubt if those lads are minded will influence the senior team in the future.

If funding is an issue - there are hundreds of ways to raise funds, so that being trotted out as an excuse is rubbish.Cork have a GAA draw every month, other counties can find ways of getting that funding and instead of it being directed into the sinkholes that can be county teams, invest it in underage like Dublin did, like the Cork ladies did and with the right people you may be successful at senior level. It will give you a better chance at being successful that throwing the money at a senior team, and then that will generate income - success bringing sponsors and money.

The dominance will be there for the senior team for a few more years - but worry be there forever - lot of other counties knocking at the door with their successful underage teams coming through

bruschi

bucketybuck wrote: »

IMO the GAA shouldn't even be trying to bridge that divide, the genie is out of the bottle and now they are asking the wrong questions. They need to take a long step back and really ask themselves where they think the sport is going.

For example, if you wanted a GAA product that most resembles the game that has been played for the past century then you should not be looking at intercounty but at the clubs. But does the GAA give a single fart about the club scene? Of course not. They will spend 20 years dicking about with super 8's and super 16's and other mindless changes when if they spent 20 years building the club scene you could have a really good and competitive competition there.

Yeah I agree to an extent, but the only real proposal or solution I made is to implement the coaching structure to clubs that they have done in Dublin. Which is what they are doing, very slowly. It was done on a huge scale in Dublin, but they are being very slow expanding it and I'm not sure why. It is not available to all clubs and it should be. Some clubs wont want it or be able to implement it, but it should still be available.

Improve the clubs, automatically improves the county. Therefore improves the game and competitions.

Other than that, I'd agree that the GAA give damn all about the clubs. The fixtures are still a widespread clusterfcuk. Club players are the heartbeat of county and therefore GAA, without them, you dont have county teams. Treat them right, improve them, and you end up with a better end product.

gormdubhgorm

I would like to see the DCB play games in the USA or Australia or England

It would really put an end to the myth that the Dubs don't travel

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parnell+Park,+Clancarthy+Road,+Dublin+5/Gaelic+Park,+201+W+240th+St,+The+Bronx,+NY+10463,+USA/@45.7014535,-58.0166866,4z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48670fb317df2777:0xd58f12760047a5cd!2m2!1d-6.2165956!2d53.3729332!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2f3bb489f65cf:0x5505e23dba46614c!2m2!1d-73.9014259!2d40.8876522!3e4

But that capacity is only 2k

So then I thought about the giants stadium New York.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_Stadium

Same capacity as Croke Park.


Spotless Stadium (showground stadium/giants stadium) Sydney has been used for GAA games 25k


https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-in-syndey-a-home-away-from-home/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Showground_Stadium


Villa Park/would be a good choice for a final

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Park

Over 40k Jack Grealish could bring out the Delaney Cup in the final

Or maybe the London Stadium - West Ham's ground 80k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stadium

Delcan Rice the obvious choice to bring out the Delaney cup.

The leinster championship would be invigorated the hill could go on tour - build thier holidays around it.

I am not sure any of the counties would win against Dublin while out in these places - but at least they could get a tan/sunburnt while getting a holiday. Plus they could go on the lash.

Happyilylost

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I would like to see the DCB play games in the USA or Australia or England

It would really put an end to the myth that the Dubs don't travel

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parnell+Park,+Clancarthy+Road,+Dublin+5/Gaelic+Park,+201+W+240th+St,+The+Bronx,+NY+10463,+USA/@45.7014535,-58.0166866,4z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48670fb317df2777:0xd58f12760047a5cd!2m2!1d-6.2165956!2d53.3729332!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2f3bb489f65cf:0x5505e23dba46614c!2m2!1d-73.9014259!2d40.8876522!3e4

But that capacity is only 2k

So then I thought about the giants stadium New York.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_Stadium

Same capacity as Croke Park.


Spotless Stadium Sydney has been used for GAA games 25k


https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-in-syndey-a-home-away-from-home/


Villa Park/would be a good choice for a final

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Park

Over 40k Jack Grealish could bring out the Delaney Cup in the final

Or maybe the London Stadium - West Ham's ground 80k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stadium

Delcan Rice the obvious choice to bring out the Delaney cup.

The leinster championship would be invigorated the hill could go on tour - build thier holidays around it.

I am not sure any of the counties would win against Dublin while out in these places - but at least they could get a tan/sunburnt while getting a holiday. Plus they could go on the lash.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/does-a-neutral-venue-lessen-a-gaa-favourites-chances-928077.html

“Put simply, the favourite wins around eight out of 10 matches at home, but only 6.5 out of 10 matches at neutral venues. In many ways, the GAA has already been ahead of the curve in taking home advantage seriously."

Keep deflecting. It would make things easier if points that seem to be fairly straightforward and still argued.

Playing in Croke Park is an advantage to Dublin yes or no?

elefant

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I would like to see the DCB play games in the USA or Australia or England

It would really put an end to the myth that the Dubs don't travel

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parnell+Park,+Clancarthy+Road,+Dublin+5/Gaelic+Park,+201+W+240th+St,+The+Bronx,+NY+10463,+USA/@45.7014535,-58.0166866,4z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48670fb317df2777:0xd58f12760047a5cd!2m2!1d-6.2165956!2d53.3729332!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2f3bb489f65cf:0x5505e23dba46614c!2m2!1d-73.9014259!2d40.8876522!3e4

But that capacity is only 2k

So then I thought about the giants stadium New York.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_Stadium

Same capacity as Croke Park.


Spotless Stadium (showground stadium/giants stadium) Sydney has been used for GAA games 25k


https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-in-syndey-a-home-away-from-home/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Showground_Stadium


Villa Park/would be a good choice for a final

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Park

Over 40k Jack Grealish could bring out the Delaney Cup in the final

Or maybe the London Stadium - West Ham's ground 80k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stadium

Delcan Rice the obvious choice to bring out the Delaney cup.

The leinster championship would be invigorated the hill could go on tour - build thier holidays around it.

I am not sure any of the counties would win against Dublin while out in these places - but at least they could get a tan/sunburnt while getting a holiday. Plus they could go on the lash.

What point are you even trying to make here?

rebel girl 15

odyssey06 wrote: »

I've no issue with a levy being put on all sponsorship deals of 25% to central HQ, as long as same applies to a county's fund-raising budget.

Mayo's six figure fund-raising activities I am sure Leitrim would like a cut of that?
2016 – €840,179
2015 – €600,086

Sponsorship deals and fund-raisers aren't just money for nothing, there's player and manager access etc so there has to be significant rewards for the county involved too.

Fund raising budget?? Good luck getting that voted out of your club let alone your county for Congress! Boards should not be penalised for the fundraising they work hard to do - no matter what the size of the county.

As for the sponsorship going into a central bucket - do people think sponsors would be happy with that? What are they going to get for their 25% going into a central fund? Do you think the title sponsors of the GAA will be happy with that given how much they have to pay to sponsor the championships and competitions? Do you think smaller county boards would be happy with 25% of their sponsorship money disappearing? What would happen is instead of sponsors giving their money, they would tie it up paying directly for things instead and bypass the county board - can’t be touched then

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

This thread is some car crash. The amount of mis information on both sides of whatever argument are unreal. The worst thing though is peddling things as if they are facts when it is speculation or just general thought rehashed as some set in stone point of fact.

You are absolutely right on this. There is a huge amount of misinformation.

bruschi wrote: »

There is also a perception this Dublin team is aging and will fall back to the pack, but yet it is proven, through statistics, that the age profile of the team since 2011 has only once been an average over 27, and that was in 2016. Every other year the average age of the team and squad is between 25 and 27. They continuously replenish their side and for some reason people now think that despite them doing this successfully for 9 years that all of a sudden it wont happen now.

Unfortunately, you are wrong on this, and are in danger of falling for the very pitfall you warned against of confusing speculation with fact. I have consistently through this thread and others looked back on old teams and old squads to show that while the Dublin team is evolving, it is evolving much slower than their competitors, be that Kerry, Donegal, Tyrone or Mayo. That will catch up on Dublin.

Dublin have dominated for 9 seasons, the great Kerry team dominated for 11 seasons. It has been peddled on here repeatedly that that team didn't change over time.

http://www.terracetalk.com/kerry-football/game/346/1985-Kerry-Vs-Monaghan

http://www.terracetalk.com/kerry-football/game/504/1975-Kerry-Vs-Dublin

The 1985 Kerry team only contained five survivors from 1975. The team evolved from 1975 to 1978 as they dealt with the defeats to Dublin in 1976 and 1977 (as did Dublin from 2011 to 2015 as they dealt with defeats to Donegal and Mayo as well as a change of manager), but the core of the team then remained from 1978 onwards (as has the Dublin team since 2015).

The parallels are very similar.

Like that Kerry team from 1978 onwards, Dublin now have a core of Cluxton, Cooper, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Fenton, Kilkenny, Mannion and Rock. Also like that Kerry team from 1978, Dublin will fall back again, once that core retires.

BarryD2

As pointed out on other thread, if you want to take a longer view of Dublin dominance in football and it's effect on the game, don't look at the AI - just look at the Leinster Champ. Never mind a piddly 5 in a row, Dublin would have 15 in a row in Leinster now if it weren't for the blip in 2010... That's the future and yous better get used to it

odyssey06

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Fund raising budget?? Good luck getting that voted out of your club let alone your county for Congress! Boards should not be penalised for the fundraising they work hard to do - no matter what the size of the county.
As for the sponsorship going into a central bucket - do people think sponsors would be happy with that? What are they going to get for their 25% going into a central fund? Do you think the title sponsors of the GAA will be happy with that given how much they have to pay to sponsor the championships and competitions? Do you think smaller county boards would be happy with 25% of their sponsorship money disappearing? What would happen is instead of sponsors giving their money, they would tie it up paying directly for things instead and bypass the county board - can’t be touched then

I said I had no issue with it, I didn't say it was practicable or county boards would be happy with it!

I was more interested in tying whatever is done for sponsorship to fund-raising. If you want to talk about Dublin's sponsorship numbers fine but let's also be looking at other county's fund-raising numbers which are in the same ball park.

gormdubhgorm

Happyilylost wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/does-a-neutral-venue-lessen-a-gaa-favourites-chances-928077.html

“Put simply, the favourite wins around eight out of 10 matches at home, but only 6.5 out of 10 matches at neutral venues. In many ways, the GAA has already been ahead of the curve in taking home advantage seriously."

Keep deflecting. It would make things easier if points that seem to be fairly straightforward and still argued.

Playing in Croke Park is an advantage to Dublin yes or no?

I am not deflecting I am saying it would be fun to go abroad - Omagh is as far I got supporting the Dubs - this year.

elefant wrote: »

What point are you even trying to make here?

Something different.

Croke Park was in fact a disadvantage for Dublin for years they were terrible there how many times did you hear Kerry like Croke Park - home from home.
It was only when the successful cash cow of the 'spring series' in the league was introduced that Dublin players got comfortable playing in Croke Park properly.

Plus exceptional players came on the scence a mix of Dublin under 12 teams from 2005 and the all-ireland junior winning team of 2008

This Dublin team have being unbeaten in the championship despite all the games played -

Won in Omagh. Nowlan Park etc etc.

Away venues are not a problem for this Dublin team.
Croke Park as a venue is just used as a stick to beat Dublin with by supporters envious of thier success and greatness.
Name the venue they would play any team there and more than likely beat them.

How many leagues have Dublin won recently?
How many times have they won away?
Or got a result through sheer determination?
Look at the Dublin's away results.

The venue is not the main problem - the problem is other counties have mismanaged themselves and Dublin have managed themselves (at long last)

Add in the most exceptional core of players to ever play the game and the other counties are left looking for excuses.

Donnielighto

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely right on this. There is a huge amount of misinformation.




Unfortunately, you are wrong on this, and are in danger of falling for the very pitfall you warned against of confusing speculation with fact. I have consistently through this thread and others looked back on old teams and old squads to show that while the Dublin team is evolving, it is evolving much slower than their competitors, be that Kerry, Donegal, Tyrone or Mayo. That will catch up on Dublin.

Dublin have dominated for 9 seasons, the great Kerry team dominated for 11 seasons. It has been peddled on here repeatedly that that team didn't change over time.

http://www.terracetalk.com/kerry-football/game/346/1985-Kerry-Vs-Monaghan

http://www.terracetalk.com/kerry-football/game/504/1975-Kerry-Vs-Dublin

The 1985 Kerry team only contained five survivors from 1975. The team evolved from 1975 to 1978 as they dealt with the defeats to Dublin in 1976 and 1977 (as did Dublin from 2011 to 2015 as they dealt with defeats to Donegal and Mayo as well as a change of manager), but the core of the team then remained from 1978 onwards (as has the Dublin team since 2015).

The parallels are very similar.

Like that Kerry team from 1978 onwards, Dublin now have a core of Cluxton, Cooper, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Fenton, Kilkenny, Mannion and Rock. Also like that Kerry team from 1978, Dublin will fall back again, once that core retires.

Payers have changed, Dublin have a healthy rotation and bar Kilkenny and cluxton I don't think anyone is consitently seen as a irreplaceable. Keeping half the team over 5 years is close enough to perfect replacement rate and isn't a golden generation thing.

That kerry tram had 2 phases really. I don't see Dublin falling off tbh.

JeffKenna

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

If funding is an issue - there are hundreds of ways to raise funds, so that being trotted out as an excuse is rubbish.Cork have a GAA draw every month, other counties can find ways of getting that funding and instead of it being directed into the sinkholes that can be county teams, invest it in underage like Dublin did, like the Cork ladies did and with the right people you may be successful at senior level. It will give you a better chance at being successful that throwing the money at a senior team, and then that will generate income - success bringing sponsors and money.

I was at the Cork hurling final last year and at half time members of the Cork camogie team had to come around with buckets and walk through the stand to fundraise. Are you seriously suggesting that it's no advantage to Dublin that they don't have to fundraise??

blanch152

Donnielighto wrote: »

Payers have changed, Dublin have a healthy rotation and bar Kilkenny and cluxton I don't think anyone is consitently seen as a irreplaceable. Keeping half the team over 5 years is close enough to perfect replacement rate and isn't a golden generation thing.

That kerry tram had 2 phases really. I don't see Dublin falling off tbh.

Again, that doesn't fit with the facts of a 20-man game nowadays. Dublin have largely the same squad as 2015, with Howard, Scully and O'Callaghan the only additions to the squad since then with significant game time. That is a large core of 16-17 players that will have done the five-in-a-row if they make it.

If you argue that Kerry had two phases, you can also argue that Dublin have had two phases, before and after 2015.

gormdubhgorm

elefant wrote: »

What point are you even trying to make here?

Donnielighto wrote: »

Payers have changed, Dublin have a healthy rotation and bar Kilkenny and cluxton I don't think anyone is consitently seen as a irreplaceable. Keeping half the team over 5 years is close enough to perfect replacement rate and isn't a golden generation thing.

Ah it is a golden generation -

Cluxton
Kilkenny
Mannion
Rock
McCarthy
McCaffery
Fenton
Scully
MDM
Cooper
Fitzsimons

In five years time those lads will be gone or on the bench at best - all in thier 30s by then

The team will be severely weakened.
They will have to focus around Howard,O'Callaghan, Murchan, Bugler. And hope that a few appear from underage - which by recent results does not appear to be too strong.

Augme

PressRun wrote: »

Trampas wrote: »

Why doesn’t barret get a job that’s involves working from home or get a job nearer to Mayo.

Don't really give a **** about this topic, but this is an astoundingly stupid question and shows an incredibly out of touch view of the reality of rural Ireland.

The problem is this is the kind of attitude people are up against when trying to have a rationale debate about the situation.


At some point GAA will have to do something, until then the best thing to donas a GAA is switch off and not watch to help quicken the process.

gormdubhgorm

Augme wrote: »

The problem is this is the kind of attitude people are up against when trying to have a rationale debate about the situation.


At some point GAA will have to do something, until then the best thing to donas a GAA is switch off and not watch to help quicken the process.

I bet you will still be glued to the final though - willing Kerry on against the evil blue empire....

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

You are absolutely right on this. There is a huge amount of misinformation.




Unfortunately, you are wrong on this,

Please show me where I am wrong so.

The average ages for the teams I have are as follows:
2011 - 25.5
2013 - 24.8
2015 - 26.8
2016 - 27.4
2017 - 26.9
2018 - 26.3

That is the only fact I presented. If my facts are incorrect, I will put my hands up. So please, show me where I am wrong.

The point I am making is that Dublin consistently replenish their side and adapt each season. I didnt mention Kerry from their era or talk about anything of that. That Dublin team that won in 2011 did not contain 6 of the 8 players you say are core players. Even in 2013, it had 6 of the 8 you mention as core players. 2015 was the first time all 8 of the core players played. 7 of your 8 core players are under 30, 4 of them 26 or under. There is a long time left for 7 of those 8 cores, particularly 4 of them. Players of the years from previous winning teams have retired or are now squad players and been replaced seamlessly.

Why, after 9 years of Dublin keeping the average age of the team consistent and replacing players, do Dublin fans now think that they cant or wont keep doing this? They have quality players coming through from U20, for example Ciaran Archer is an absolute star and would start for the majority of inter county senior teams now, but can afford to work his way into the Dublin seniors.

And on the flip side, people are claiming that maybe these Dublin young players wont step up whilst at the same time claiming that the Kerry minor 5 in a row automatically will step up and be challengers.

They may or they may not, but the only fact I presented was that Dublin consistently replenish their side and have been successful at doing so. There is no form to show that this will suddenly stop. It's not a bad thing, every county should be able to do it and keep a fine balance of experienced players and new younger players coming through. Jim Gavin does it perfectly. Players get a year or 2 after U20 to get used to the training, play the early season games, get a few run outs and then be prepared to be a first choice starter at 23 or 24.

BarryD2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I bet you will still be glued to the final though - willing Kerry on against the evil blue empire....

More likely, tuning in to view the car crash....

Donnielighto

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I bet you will still be glued to the final though - willing Kerry on against the evil blue empire....

I don't go to county games unless it's an unused ticket and I don't watch on TV anymore, illegally stream what I can.

When Horan said anyone who wasn't at the Kerry Galway game wasn't a true fan I was was done with supporting the GAA financially.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

Please show me where I am wrong so.

The average ages for the teams I have are as follows:
2011 - 25.5
2013 - 24.8
2015 - 26.8
2016 - 27.4
2017 - 26.9
2018 - 26.3

That is the only fact I presented. If my facts are incorrect, I will put my hands up. So please, show me where I am wrong.

The point I am making is that Dublin consistently replenish their side and adapt each season. I didnt mention Kerry from their era or talk about anything of that. That Dublin team that won in 2011 did not contain 6 of the 8 players you say are core players. Even in 2013, it had 6 of the 8 you mention as core players. 2015 was the first time all 8 of the core players played. 7 of your 8 core players are under 30, 4 of them 26 or under. There is a long time left for 7 of those 8 cores, particularly 4 of them. Players of the years from previous winning teams have retired or are now squad players and been replaced seamlessly.

Why, after 9 years of Dublin keeping the average age of the team consistent and replacing players, do Dublin fans now think that they cant or wont keep doing this? They have quality players coming through from U20, for example Ciaran Archer is an absolute star and would start for the majority of inter county senior teams now, but can afford to work his way into the Dublin seniors.

And on the flip side, people are claiming that maybe these Dublin young players wont step up whilst at the same time claiming that the Kerry minor 5 in a row automatically will step up and be challengers.

They may or they may not, but the only fact I presented was that Dublin consistently replenish their side and have been successful at doing so. There is no form to show that this will suddenly stop. It's not a bad thing, every county should be able to do it and keep a fine balance of experienced players and new younger players coming through. Jim Gavin does it perfectly. Players get a year or 2 after U20 to get used to the training, play the early season games, get a few run outs and then be prepared to be a first choice starter at 23 or 24.

Ok I will answer this just because Dublin keep the average age of the panel down over the years does not equate to the maintenance of standards.

Conor McHugh is a prime example of this he is 25 - hanging around the squad on the fringes for years.
He has never really 'done it' at senior level.
Although the average age of players has been maintained the core of players who play regularly is the same - the same faces are on the bench Kevin Mc, MDM, Philly, Costello, EOG etc

elefant

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How many leagues have Dublin won recently?
How many times have they won away?
Or got a result through sheer determination?
Look at the Dublin's away results.

The venue is not the main problem - the problem is other counties have mismanaged themselves and Dublin have managed themselves (at long last)

Add in the most exceptional core of players to ever play the game and the other counties are left looking for excuses.

Nobody is saying Dublin only win because they play in Croke Park, or that it's the main problem.
Everyone is saying it's just another extra little advantage that Dublin have over every other team.

I can't believe this even needs to be explained.

gormdubhgorm

Donnielighto wrote: »

I don't go to county games unless it's an unused ticket and I don't watch on TV anymore, illegally stream what I can.

When Horan said anyone who wasn't at the Kerry Galway game wasn't a true fan I was was done with supporting the GAA financially.

I admire your 'dedication' to your mini protest, but you STILL are drawn to the games one way or another - getting an unused ticket - and illegal streaming is just a cheaper way of watching the games.

If you had no interest in it you would not be making such an effort to see the games in the first place.

Fann Linn

elefant wrote: »

Nobody is saying Dublin only win because they play in Croke Park, or that it's the main problem.
Everyone is saying it's just another extra little advantage that Dublin have over every other team.

I can't believe this even needs to be explained.

I can't believe that it still has to be explained that this 'advantage' could be removed by every other county if they so wished.

gormdubhgorm

elefant wrote: »

Nobody is saying Dublin only win because they play in Croke Park, or that it's the main problem.
Everyone is saying it's just another extra little advantage that Dublin have over every other team.

I can't believe this even needs to be explained.

I get that but my point was missed as usual - initially it was a massive disadvantage for Dublin playing in Croke park.
The better teams preferred it.
I lost count of the times I used to say great chance against Kerry in a tight Parnell - but Croke Park will suit Kerry - better players bigger pitch.

None of that is remembered..... by detractors like yourself which is very convenient.

MayoAreMagic

elefant wrote: »

Nobody is saying Dublin only win because they play in Croke Park, or that it's the main problem.
Everyone is saying it's just another extra little advantage that Dublin have over every other team.

I can't believe this even needs to be explained.

Of course it doesnt. It is just diversionary tactics. There was a chart posted earlier in the thread that illustrated the number of titles dublin had won pre-financial doping and then post financial doping. Obviously enough, it was fairly telling.
The response to it was that they didnt like the title and that the colours used in it were mayo colours. Therefore the chart is biased...That is what you are dealing with...
To my mind, that kind of stuff should be classed as trolling and treated accordingly - I dont see how it can be classed as anything else. It is totally disingenuous and designed to stifle the discussion and drag it down.

Donnielighto

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I admire your 'dedication' to your mini protest, but you STILL are drawn to the games one way or another - getting an unused ticket - and illegal streaming is just a cheaper way of watching the games.

If you had no interest in it you would not be making such an effort to see the games in the first place.

Yup, I was raised on it. But the president of the organisation said I wasn't a true fan of my county for wanting to see the biggest sporting event in the world last year.

Also it's no effort to stream games, at all.

elefant

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I get that but my point was missed as usual - initially it was a massive disadvantage for Dublin playing in Croke park.
The better teams preferred it.
I lost count of the times I used to say great chance against Kerry in a tight Parnell - but Croke Park will suit Kerry - better players bigger pitch.

None of that is remembered..... by detractors like yourself which is very convenient.

Detractors like myself?

This is such a disingenuous line of argument I'm not even sure you're not trolling any more. Who cares what anyone thought of Croke Park being used in the past? It's totally immaterial. It's undeniably an advantage for them now.

And there are lots of pitches as big (and bigger) as Croke Park around Ireland.

JeffKenna

Fann Linn wrote: »

I can't believe that it still has to be explained that this 'advantage' could be removed by every other county if they so wished.

But Leinster counties play in Croke Park for financial reasons, something the Dublin County board don't have to worry about.

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

Please show me where I am wrong so.

The average ages for the teams I have are as follows:
2011 - 25.5
2013 - 24.8
2015 - 26.8
2016 - 27.4
2017 - 26.9
2018 - 26.3

That is the only fact I presented. If my facts are incorrect, I will put my hands up. So please, show me where I am wrong.

The point I am making is that Dublin consistently replenish their side and adapt each season. I didnt mention Kerry from their era or talk about anything of that. That Dublin team that won in 2011 did not contain 6 of the 8 players you say are core players. Even in 2013, it had 6 of the 8 you mention as core players. 2015 was the first time all 8 of the core players played. 7 of your 8 core players are under 30, 4 of them 26 or under. There is a long time left for 7 of those 8 cores, particularly 4 of them. Players of the years from previous winning teams have retired or are now squad players and been replaced seamlessly.

Why, after 9 years of Dublin keeping the average age of the team consistent and replacing players, do Dublin fans now think that they cant or wont keep doing this? They have quality players coming through from U20, for example Ciaran Archer is an absolute star and would start for the majority of inter county senior teams now, but can afford to work his way into the Dublin seniors.

And on the flip side, people are claiming that maybe these Dublin young players wont step up whilst at the same time claiming that the Kerry minor 5 in a row automatically will step up and be challengers.

They may or they may not, but the only fact I presented was that Dublin consistently replenish their side and have been successful at doing so. There is no form to show that this will suddenly stop. It's not a bad thing, every county should be able to do it and keep a fine balance of experienced players and new younger players coming through. Jim Gavin does it perfectly. Players get a year or 2 after U20 to get used to the training, play the early season games, get a few run outs and then be prepared to be a first choice starter at 23 or 24.

I am making a number of inter-related points

(1) The core of this team only came together in 2015, just as the core of the great Kerry team only came together in 1978

(2) Dublin's rate of replenishment is below that of their competitors

(3) Focussing on the first team only is misleading because of the nature of the 20-man game. It is actually one of Jim Gavin's tactics to put the young player in from the start as with six replacements they can be replaced if something goes wrong. Better to bring on the older player near the end for experience if in trouble, just as Mayo tried to copy with Andy Moran. So your statistics, while accurate, just aren't relevant.

(4) The average age of the Dublin squad will decrease over the next few years as Cluxton, MacAuley, O'Carroll, Connolly, Brogan, O'Gara, MacManamon, McMahon etc. all retire, but that will mean that the team becomes less effective rather than more effective. The core of 8-10 that I mentioned still have five or six years left, but the likes of Conor McHugh, Colm Basquel, Andrew McGowan etc. just aren't showing enough that they can even fill reliable places on the bench. A 32-year old Dean Rock could be like Andy Moran, coming on the field when the game is already lost because those coming behind aren't good enough.