The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

tritium

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

What Dublin players live in Dublin city centre? Most of them live Northside. So take 20 minutes off that.

What's the time to the towns of Wicklow, New Ross, Carlow, Kilkenny or Longford?

Correct me if I’m wrong but based on a quick google I think Longford are the only one of those without their own centre of excellence

Longford is approx 80mins

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

They weren't drastically underachieving. Their record was an average 1 Sam Maguire per decade since the early 1920s. They won in '95 and '83 before that. They probably would have won in 2011 without the massive GDF.

The beneficiaries of GDF such as Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Fenton, etc didn't start coming through until 2013 or 2015.

Winning 1 Sam Maguire per decade is nothing to be ashamed of by the way, its still ahead of most other counties. Saying they should be winning 3-4 per decade because of their population and therefore they needed to be funded to achieve this, is just a really sad attempt to rig a competition to produce a targeted result. And that is not sport.

Ah come on Dublin should be winning at least two or three sams per decade given population advantage etc. Look at Kerry's average, The reality was Dublin GAA was badly run it was viewed as a culchie sport. in fact many non-Dubs used to play on Dublin County teams. Dublin was an out and out soccer county for most of it's existance. The populace was more interested in Drums v Bohs. Jimmy Keaveney used to be embarrassed to tell people he was a Dublin footballer in the mid 1960's that's how low it was.

I think you are confusing cause and effect with the funding Dublin received
Dublin were very lucky to win sam in 2011 - Kerry were much the better team.
Dublin only beat Wexford by one goal in the 2011 Leinster final.
Dublin were nearly ambushed by Jim McGuinness 'revolutionary' defensive tactics in the SF. Dublin were extremely fortunate that Donegal missed a goal chance that would have killed the game.

In the final in 2011 Kerry thought they had it won and eased off the Kevin Mc goal caught them cold, against the run of play.
To imply that Dublin would not have won the 2011 final only for funding is being blind to the vagaries of sport, tactics, nous and the human condition.

Also from that 2011 final there were 11 Dublin players still the panel for the 2019 championship season. In contrast Kerry only had two survivors.
That tells the real story.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ah come on Dublin should be winning at least two or three sams per decade given population advantage etc. Look at Kerry's average, The reality was Dublin GAA was badly run it was viewed as a culchie sport. in fact many non-Dubs used to play on Dublin County teams. Dublin was an out and out soccer county for most of it's existance. The populace was more interested in Drums v Bohs. Jimmy Keaveney used to be embarrassed to tell people he was a Dublin footballer in the mid 1960's that's how low it was.

I think you are confusing cause and effect with the funding Dublin received
Dublin were very lucky to win sam in 2011 - Kerry were much the better team.
Dublin only beat Wexford by one goal in the 2011 Leinster final.
Dublin were nearly ambushed by Jim McGuinness 'revolutionary' defensive tactics in the SF. Dublin were extremely fortunate that Donegal missed a goal chance that would have killed the game.

In the final in 2011 Kerry thought they had it won and eased off the Kevin Mc goal caught them cold, against the run of play.
To imply that Dublin would not have won the 2011 final only for funding is being blind to the vagaries of sport, tactics, nous and the human condition.

Also from that 2011 final there were 11 Dublin players still the panel for the 2019 championship season. In contrast Kerry only had two survivors.
That tells the real story.

I think you are takin the p*ss at this stage.
You are advocating rigging funding so Dublin win at least 2-3 a decade. I've heard it all now.
Even Bertie admitted Kerry were doing great stuff and all for free. And he wanted to reproduce that in Dublin but could only do it with huge amounts of money.

Why couldn't Dublin do it for free? Why did they need huge funds just to compete? And why were those funds denied to every other county?

But at least you admit what we will knew already, All-Irelands bought with major funding, because they couldn't win them without it. Thanks for clearing that up

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think you are takin the p*ss at this stage.
You are advocating rigging funding so Dublin win at least 2-3 a decade. I've heard it all now.
Even Bertie admitted Kerry were doing great stuff and all for free. And he wanted to reproduce that in Dublin but could only do it with huge amounts of money.

Why couldn't Dublin do it for free? Why did they need huge funds just to compete? And why were those funds denied to every other county?

But at least you admit what we will knew already, All-Irelands bought with major funding, because they couldn't win them with no funding. Thanks for clearing that up

You are trying to make up posts in your head now that is not very frank - to be frank it is more 'to be disingenuous' rather than to be frank.
To be honest!

You are the same fella who said that they would not be watching the AIF final this year because it would be a forgone conclusion...?

You are the type of fella who seems to want it both ways in the argument.
Dublin have unfair population advantage.
Yet when this large population is funded a bit more to keep the GAA and Leinster Council afloat you are not happy.Which county do you think brings the most money to the GAA and Leinster council?
I will give you a hint it starts with D and ends in N.
In fact it has being said that Dublin are underfunded for a county of thier size.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/colm-orourke-dublin-dont-get-enough-funding-but-county-still-needs-to-be-split-38509226.html

Also as far as I know in the GAA players cannot be bought....
Unless you found other information I am unaware of while the rest of the country was enjoying the AI football finals?

Finally have you analysed the advantage the provincial structure gave Kerry?
Playing in province of hurling counties for the most part?
What football division did most of the munster counties play in?
How many division 1 football counties are/were there in Munster ever in your lifetime?

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm not blaming Dublin. I'm blaming the GAA. It is not and never was a central location. It is completely impractical for most counties to train or hold friendlies there.

Where would you have put it, out of interest?

tritium

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think you are takin the p*ss at this stage.
You are advocating rigging funding so Dublin win at least 2-3 a decade. I've heard it all now.
Even Bertie admitted Kerry were doing great stuff and all for free. And he wanted to reproduce that in Dublin but could only do it with huge amounts of money.

Why couldn't Dublin do it for free? Why did they need huge funds just to compete? And why were those funds denied to every other county?

But at least you admit what we will knew already, All-Irelands bought with major funding, because they couldn't win them without it. Thanks for clearing that up

But Kerry didn’t do it for free did they. We’ve already gone through the advantages given to Kerry over the last century or so. All the rise of dublin did was create a viable contender to address a serious piece of historic mismanagement by the GAA. I’d love them to create more contenders tbh, I’d love Munster and Leinster to have 3-4 potential AI winners

beggars_bush

tritium wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but based on a quick google I think Longford are the only one of those without their own centre of excellence

Longford is approx 80mins

Longford, Roscommon, Westmeath

beggars_bush

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Are other county boards that inept? Seriously?

How difficult is it to copy a plan/blueprint that has being successful on a much smaller scale?
Even Leitrim have a centre of excellence - Leitrim!
Population - 32,044

https://www.leitrimobserver.ie/gallery/gaelic-games/476497/leitrim-gaa-celebrates-opening-of-mcgovern-aughavas-leitrim-gaa-centre-of-excellence-gallery.html

Only opened a few weeks ago

tritium

beggars_bush wrote: »

Longford, Roscommon, Westmeath

Ooh, this is fun! Are we playing “guess which county doesnt have a centre of excellence of their own?”

Wild guess: none of the above


Kerry, Dublin, Mayo

RedDevil55

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are the type of fella who seems to want it both ways in the argument.
Dublin have unfair population advantage.
Yet when this large population is funded a bit more to keep the GAA and Leinster Council afloat you are not happy.Which county do you think brings the most money to the GAA and Leinster council?
I will give you a hint it starts with D and ends in N.

Have you ever wondered why the crowds in the Leinster championship are so small outside Dublin? No other side has a chance of winning the thing. Dublin were always the dominant side but in 2002 the GAA decided it wasn't enough and flooded the county with coaches, completely ignoring the rest of the province. Add that to the constant home advantage and it's not an exaggeration to say the thing is rigged.

If Dublin were removed from Leinster there would be a brilliant competition, more competitive than any other province. The gate receipts would eventually reflect that too.

Strumms

So Dublin out of Leinster ? Ok an open All Ireland draw ?

tritium

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why the crowds in the Leinster championship are so small outside Dublin? No other side has a chance of winning the thing. Dublin were always the dominant side but in 2002 the GAA decided it wasn't enough and flooded the county with coaches, completely ignoring the rest of the province. Add that to the constant home advantage and it's not an exaggeration to say the thing is rigged.

If Dublin were removed from Leinster there would be a brilliant competition, more competitive than any other province. The gate receipts would eventually reflect that too.

And not one of them would have a snowballs chance in hell of winning an all ireland.

The standard in Leinster outside of dublin is poor compared to the top sides. That’s been true since before any money was spent on dublin. If Leinster sides had any ambition they’d be asking how to get their standard up rather than how to pull dublin back

RedDevil55

tritium wrote: »

And not one of them would have a snowballs chance in hell of winning an all ireland.

The standard in Leinster outside of dublin is poor compared to the top sides. That’s been true since before any money was spent on dublin. If Leinster sides had any ambition they’d be asking how to get their standard up rather than how to pull dublin back

That's not true as Meath were one of the traditionally strong football counties before the Dublin funding started. Kildare also made an All Ireland final in 1998.

This is all hypothetical of course, but if you took Dublin out the standard would gradually rise among the other counties. Suddenly there would be a trophy on offer and interest would rise among players and fans. The confidence of winning Leinster championships would eventually translate to the All Ireland series.

ArielAtom

RedDevil55 wrote: »

That's not true as Meath were one of the traditionally strong football counties before the Dublin funding started. Kildare also made an All Ireland final in 1998.

This is all hypothetical of course, but if you took Dublin out the standard would gradually rise among the other counties. Suddenly there would be a trophy on offer and interest would rise among players and fans. The confidence of winning Leinster championships would eventually translate to the All Ireland series.

So a gradual rise in standards will suddenly lead to a trophy? Wow!!!!

RedDevil55

ArielAtom wrote: »

So a gradual rise in standards will suddenly lead to a trophy? Wow!!!!

Did you not understand what I said? Winning provincial championships gives belief and confidence to go and achieve more. A good example is Donegal or Mayo in 2011. Both were terrible the previous year but a couple of provincial wins propelled them up to the top table. It didn't matter that they beat poor Tyrone and Galway teams, the success lifted belief across both counties.

Sadly, that won't be happening to Meath or Kildare anytime soon.

ArielAtom

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Did you not understand what I said? Winning provincial championships gives belief and confidence to go and achieve more. A good example is Donegal or Mayo in 2011. Both were terrible the previous year but a couple of provincial wins propelled them up to the top table. It didn't matter that they beat poor Tyrone and Galway teams, the success lifted belief across both counties.

Sadly, that won't be happening to Meath or Kildare anytime soon.

Yes. You stated a gradual rise in standards would suddenly lead to silverware. Contradictory terms.
But I get what you’re after. No Dublin mean the likes of Meath, Kildare might have a chance of a provincial title. Nothing more.

tritium

RedDevil55 wrote: »

That's not true as Meath were one of the traditionally strong football counties before the Dublin funding started. Kildare also made an All Ireland final in 1998.

This is all hypothetical of course, but if you took Dublin out the standard would gradually rise among the other counties. Suddenly there would be a trophy on offer and interest would rise among players and fans. The confidence of winning Leinster championships would eventually translate to the All Ireland series.

Ah bull****, we’ve already been through this and your argument doesn’t stack up

tritium wrote: »

Pretty much this. People bang on about Leinster being uncompetitive now but completely miss that in terms of competing for AIs Leinster hasn’t really been competitive for a very long time. If you take dublin out of the mix what have you got- Meath have 4 wins in 32 years in two clusters of good teams that punched above leinsters typical weight. Before that it was 1967 when they previously won an AI. Kildare won one in 1928 and made a final in 1998. Louth last won in 1957, Laois never, Offaly 1982, Wexford 1918. So 5 all lielands for Leinster in 32 years if dublin are excluded. In the same period Kerry alone have won 7, and 10 in the twenty years prior to that

That’s not dublin’s fault by the way, those teams have generally had Leinster success (dublin’s historical hold on Leinster is much weaker than say Kerry’s in Munster), they just haven’t been able to do the business post Leinster. The post back door environment has actually made this more stark, teams like Kildare shipping 7 goals against Kerry;

In effect what posters using the Leinster argument seem to be saying is they’d rather lots of people could win Leinster but no one in Leinster ever was at a level to win an all ireland than Leinster as a whole was actually strengthened and competitive in the AI

Truly bizarre to be honest

Even when dublin were crap “the trophy on offer” did feck all to make Leinster less mediocre. Your traditionally strong teams had two brief spurts and fizzled. All the rest were basically hype. Not because Leinster was closed to them, it clearly wasn’t, but because once they came out of Leinster they never had a feckin clue how to translate that to consistent performances at the top table. Leinster is historically more competitive than Munster (basically a free trophy for Kerry) or even Connacht (a Galway/Mayo duopoly), yet they, with the exception of dublin, consistently underwhelm in the AI.

But sure just hobble dublin and embrace mediocrity for Leinster. Maybe we should have a participation trophy for every county while we’re at it.

Dr. Bre

Wicklow will still be $hite!

Floppybits

So rather than try and raise the level in a county it is preferable to just remove the top team from the competition. Maybe just put Dublin in the qualifiers and not play in the provincial championship.

odyssey06

Dublin didn't win their first All Ireland of the century until 2011.
They only won 1 Leinster title 2000-2005.
Between 2000 and 2010 Leinster was not competitive nationally, Meath were beaten All Ireland finalists in 2001. That's it.

Leinster were the strongest province of 1995-1999 with Dublin, Meath and Kildare all reaching All Ireland final.

Between Offaly in 1998 and Dublin in 2013, there were no Leinster NFL winners; although Dublin, Meath, Laois, Wexford made the final.

The surge in Dublin funding only started in 2001. Leinster fell away before that could have made any impact.

If there was no back door \ super 8 \ national league, maybe you could make the argument that Dublin are suppressing the Leinster teams post 2011, but I don't see a case to be made for it given those alternative paths.

tritium

Floppybits wrote: »

So rather than try and raise the level in a county it is preferable to just remove the top team from the competition. Maybe just put Dublin in the qualifiers and not play in the provincial championship.

That would just restore the old status quo though and do nothing for the weaker counties. Since dublins rise essentially created a new contender to the old status quo maybe we should have a separate all ireland for say dublin Kerry mayo and any other team with bigger financial backing (a cut off would be needed but these three clearly fit the bill). Take them out of their provincials too so that other teams have the incentive of a trophy since apparently that raises standards. The GAA could then concentrate funding on bringing the rest up the development ladder :;):

Floppybits

tritium wrote: »

That would just restore the old status quo though and do nothing for the weaker counties. Since dublins rise essentially created a new contender to the old status quo maybe we should have a separate all ireland for say dublin Kerry mayo and any other team with bigger financial backing (a cut off would be needed but these three clearly fit the bill). Take them out of their provincials too so that other teams have the incentive of a trophy since apparently that raises standards. The GAA could then concentrate funding on bringing the rest up the development ladder :;):

Ah but it would be a bit of craic. Should have also put in the rule that Dublin have to play all their qualifier games away from home. There would be some great away days and it gives the others a chance.

dunnerc

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Did you not understand what I said? Winning provincial championships gives belief and confidence to go and achieve more. A good example is Donegal or Mayo in 2011. Both were terrible the previous year but a couple of provincial wins propelled them up to the top table. It didn't matter that they beat poor Tyrone and Galway teams, the success lifted belief across both counties.

Sadly, that won't be happening to Meath or Kildare anytime soon.

Sadly , that wont be happening for Waterford Clare or Tipp anytime soon , in that other mess of a Provence , funny how your not concerned for these Counties .

dunnerc

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why the crowds in the Leinster championship are so small outside Dublin? No other side has a chance of winning the thing. Dublin were always the dominant side but in 2002 the GAA decided it wasn't enough and flooded the county with coaches, completely ignoring the rest of the province. Add that to the constant home advantage and it's not an exaggeration to say the thing is rigged.

If Dublin were removed from Leinster there would be a brilliant competition, more competitive than any other province. The gate receipts would eventually reflect that too.

If Kerry were removed from Munster , there would be a brilliant competition , after all they have won 81 senior titles

Lets just remove Dublin from Leinster , Kerry from Munster and put the 2 of them straight into the All Ireland Final , let the rest play for the minor Trophies :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Floppybits

dunnerc wrote: »

If Kerry were removed from Munster , there would be a brilliant competition , after all they have won 81 senior titles

Lets just remove Dublin from Leinster , Kerry from Munster and put the 2 of them straight into the All Ireland Final , let the rest play for the minor Trophies :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just put them in the super 8's and let the rest of the counties battle for the remaining spots.

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

Again, the complete lack of understanding of GPO/GDA/GDOs, their roles and subsequent TURAS program etc is baffling. Added to that is the continued inference that every other county is some ramshackle organisation and Dublin were the only ones who should get this money.

GDO's are invaluable to clubs. To try make out they are glorified supervising coaches to schools is doing them, their clubs and the GAA a complete disservice. They have a huge impact on clubs, in terms of providing qualified structured coaching to coaches, coaching templates, guidelines, coaching programs as well as hands on coaching to members of the underage sections of clubs. To listen to some of the comments as if they do damn all is ridiculous, as a club is not going to pay upwards of €20k, and some more than double that, to have a full time coach at the clubs disposal. Its insulting to your GDO to talk about them the way some are.

Secondly, the TURAS program is a stop gap solution to try make use of a huge lack of resources. Basically what it entails is the provision of workshops throughout the year, provided by a county GDA, where clubs can attend by sending their underage coaches to upskill and improve their coaching knowledge. Its a decent program, but no different than what many counties had been doing for the past 10 years with their 3 or 4 GDAs trying to cover 50 or more clubs in a county.

The role posted in Roscommon is for a county wide GDA. Their role is to provide services for games promotion over a county. A GDO in Dublin is doing that for one singular club. Hardly comparable for the end benefits and resources available really.

Lastly, the implemntation of the GDO/GPOs to clubs is not done directly through the county board. This isnt a case where they just hand over millions to a county and say off you go. Wages are paid through provincial council, or in Dublins case, through GAA headquarters direct. County boards are involved int he implementation of these roles, setting them up and applications. They are not involved in monetary issues. So this stick the whole time that Dublin are some how whiter than white with their money as being the reason they got it and others didnt is beyond insulting. It was a GAA development program using Dublin as the starting point. A general economic crash happened in the years just after implementation and that probably has some reasoning as to the limiting of its expansion. However, there was no reason for this complete imbalance to continue as long as it has.

Will a GPO in each club make them world beaters again? No, it will certainly improve, its not the be all and end all. There are still many natural advantages Dublin will have over other counties that count, some will get close and win, others wont be within a mile of them. however, there is only one manufactured advantage that the GAA created, and they are not doing enough to balance things out.

http://www.gaaroscommon.ie/news-detail/10010030/


Why are you suggesting that there is only a single post in Roscommon?

Even a cursory google search will show you that there were several in 2016, a few years ago.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

They weren't drastically underachieving. Their record was an average 1 Sam Maguire per decade since the early 1920s. They won in '95 and '83 before that. They probably would have won in 2011 without the massive GDF.

The beneficiaries of GDF such as Kilkenny, McCaffrey, Fenton, etc didn't start coming through until 2013 or 2015.

Winning 1 Sam Maguire per decade is nothing to be ashamed of by the way, its still ahead of most other counties. Saying they should be winning 3-4 per decade because of their population and therefore they needed to be funded to achieve this, is just a really sad attempt to rig a competition to produce a targeted result. And that is not sport.

Silliness.

Based on population, Dublin should be winning two to three All-Irelands every decade. That is the norm.

Dublin only really played to that norm in a few decades - 1970s being the obvious one. You could argue that in the 1980s they were unlucky in that regard.

This is the first decade they have played above the norm, led by a once-in-a-generation group of players that came together in 2013 and strengthened the base that was already there.

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.gaaroscommon.ie/news-detail/10010030/


Why are you suggesting that there is only a single post in Roscommon?

Even a cursory google search will show you that there were several in 2016, a few years ago.

I have no where said there was a single post. The job advertisement is for one position covering a county wide base. There are multiple coaches in many counties, up to 5 or 6 as an average per county. These have to cover their county wide activities as well as try cover clubs needs.

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

I have no where said there was a single post. The job advertisement is for one position covering a county wide base. There are multiple coaches in many counties, up to 5 or 6 as an average per county. These have to cover their county wide activities as well as try cover clubs needs.

And Dublin will have a similar county-wide post co-ordinating the work of the GDOs.

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

And Dublin will have a similar county-wide post co-ordinating the work of the GDOs.

yes. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking or trying to clarify here.

gormdubhgorm

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why the crowds in the Leinster championship are so small outside Dublin? No other side has a chance of winning the thing. Dublin were always the dominant side but in 2002 the GAA decided it wasn't enough and flooded the county with coaches, completely ignoring the rest of the province. Add that to the constant home advantage and it's not an exaggeration to say the thing is rigged.

If Dublin were removed from Leinster there would be a brilliant competition, more competitive than any other province. The gate receipts would eventually reflect that too.

RedDevil55 wrote: »

That's not true as Meath were one of the traditionally strong football counties before the Dublin funding started. Kildare also made an All Ireland final in 1998.

This is all hypothetical of course, but if you took Dublin out the standard would gradually rise among the other counties. Suddenly there would be a trophy on offer and interest would rise among players and fans. The confidence of winning Leinster championships would eventually translate to the All Ireland series.

I find these two contradictory posts amusing.
One saying how Leinster used to be 'exciting'. The fact was it was exciting after 99 in particular was because the standard of Leinster had fallen dramatically.
I well remember Jarlath Burns smugly saying in the 00's that Down would win Leinster by then they were a fading force in Ulster.

The other post implies by making it 'exciting' again the standard will rise was plainly not true. How far did the leinster teams of the 2000's go in the qualifiers excluding the 'traditional counties'? Improvement of standard or was it management lead?

The final thing that irks me is that Dublin are being used as a scapegoat to take the spotlight off how poorly the traditional counties of Kildare and Meath have fared in the interim.

But the seismic effect on Kildare and Meath has not being Dublin. It was though either thier poor management and neglect of thier underage structures.
It is no coincidence that both counties went backwards since the departure of two living legend managers - Boylan and O'Dwyer. That was the real seismic shift the lack of an astute leader, a person who commands respect, a person who knows how to manage a team a improve them.
They were a position of strength and slowly let things slide.
That is not 'rigging' that is just fact poor management and neglect/misuse of underage structure has impacted on these counties from a position of strength. Kildare had the players but McGeeney misused them he just 'got them fit' for example.

What have Meath/Kildare done in the qualifiers in the last few years barring the one off 'Newbridge or nowhere' game - I cannot remember one where Kildare/Meath won a game where they were not supposed to.
Dublin are not a stumbling block to Kildare/Meath in the qualifiers.
What is the excuse there?

The league is telling as well.
Look at how far Meath and Kildare have fallen - Meath not in div 1 for 13 years.
Kildare have yoyoed between div 1 and div 2
In the championship both have lost to teams they should not be losing to.
Meath to Westmeath in the championship only a few years ago. Kildare losing to a Micko inspired Wicklow!
Meath losing to Longford on only a few years ago.

Leinster football has become the New Munster football - because of Kildare and Meath letting things slide or mismanagement of what they have.
It will be interesting to see what a quality manager like Jack O'Connor can do with decent minors and u20s coming down the track.
I think he will put to shame previous Kildare managers who made a balls of things.

---

As for Dublin's 'home' Disdvantage in Croke Park - Parnell Park is Dublin's home they merely rent Croke Park. If the Dublin footballers did not play in Croke Park the Leinster council would have even less money to disperse among the counties.

It was not long ago that it was viewed as a disadvantage for them to play there as they did not have the 'footballers' like Kerry etc who were able to take advantage of the wide pitch.
The phrases used to be 'Kerry like CP' - 'Kerry are used to CP' etc etc.
'Dublin feel the pressure to perform in front of the large Dublin following etc'

The footballers have played many a championship game in Portlaoise where a smaller crowd was expected. (if you look through recent records) - they have also played Laois in Nowlan Park.

Also I have yet to see anyone mention the disadvantage the Dublin hurlers have faced playing 'home' games in CP. When every man and his dog knows the Dublin hurlers play better in the tight confines of Parnell.
Thankfully this has changed recently - the Neller is used for home games where possible.

Floppybits

You may as well be talking to the wall here, folks just looking for someone else to blame but themselves for their lack of competitiveness and they are allowing their anti Dublin bias flow.

It doesn't matter that many counties have made bad decisions and have been mismanaged, they will always blame someone else. At least Dublin after years of bad decisions and mismanagement got their act together and are reaping the rewards.

One thing I would like to know, what exactly are these centres of excellence that some counties are building for? What is the point of them and what is in them?

bruschi

Floppybits wrote: »

You may as well be talking to the wall here, folks just looking for someone else to blame but themselves for their lack of competitiveness and they are allowing their anti Dublin bias flow.

It doesn't matter that many counties have made bad decisions and have been mismanaged, they will always blame someone else. At least Dublin after years of bad decisions and mismanagement got their act together and are reaping the rewards.

One thing I would like to know, what exactly are these centres of excellence that some counties are building for? What is the point of them and what is in them?

with a massive, massive helping hand from the GAA headquarters that they dont give any other county. why did Dublin get all the funding after "years of bad decisions and mismanagement" but now other counties should not be entitled to the same benefits afforded to Dublin.

As for centres of excellence, the vast majority of counties need somewhere to train county teams from senior down to underage. Typically in the past, this would have been done on club grounds or pitches or in some of the county grounds if a county had one. Therefore it makes sense to have a central location of 4 or 5 pitches where it can have resources directly for county teams to train in. Gyms, meeting rooms, pitches etc without having to be a burden on clubs. Most counties also do not have national centres of excellence nor multiple third level institutes who have such facilities to hand where they can avail of these rather then needing to specifically build their own.

For example, Cork dont have a centre of excellence, it seems they put their infrastructure needs on PUC rather than a centre. As they have facilities in the Mardyke and CIT, as well as the likes of Mallow and Nemo, I suppose that was their logic in not pursuing one. Tipperary dont have one either and are planning to do one in either Semple or Dr Morris Park last I heard. Laois did theirs with O Moore Park. Carlow did one out towards Fenagh direction. A lot of counties do have one and many more still dont.

gormdubhgorm

Floppybits wrote: »

One thing I would like to know, what exactly are these centres of excellence that some counties are building for? What is the point of them and what is in them?

That is good question.

Laois centre of excellence - (they built it beside O'Moore Park)

https://www.laoistoday.ie/2018/04/05/new-laois-gaa-centre-of-excellence-will-help-county-teams-compete-with-the-best-says-coaching-officer/

"It gives our players from 12 years of age through to senior the opportunity to train on the best pitches, do gym work in the best facilities, eat food in a nice environment and have nice meeting rooms in the same place."

Wicklow seems much the same idea -

http://wicklowcoe.com/

Kerry's centre of excellence -

http://www.kerrygaa.ie/centre-of-excellence/

"Two physio rooms, six pitches, eight dressing rooms – and a very small reception area"

"The spider web design of the facility means it works from the centre out. At its heart is a massive gym with 30m testing track, which is perimetered by a circle of eight dressing rooms, including one specifically for ladies teams.

Each of the dressing rooms has its own exits to the pitches, avoiding any traffic through the heart of the centre.

Upstairs is a central 50-seater auditorium, video room and eating facilities, one for senior teams and a second for under age."


Tyrone's COE Garvaghey - (Very detailed on what is in thier COE)


https://tyronegaa.ie/club-tyrone/garvaghey-centre/

"
Garvaghey is a Tyrone gaelic resource, facilitating all the gaelic codes and cultural/heritage activities; for men and women, boys and girls; for Clubs and schools; and for the ordinary, the less ordinary and the extra- ordinary. If you’re interested in gaelic Tyrone, then Garvaghey is interested in you.

Garvaghey brings together on a 43-acre site five fully-floodlit grass pitches; a floodlit ‘3G’ pitch; a floodlit ‘3G’ drills area; a perimeter walkway; an environmental area; 8,000 newly- planted native Irish trees; and a building that will “be the part and look the part.” The building will contain:

• Ten fully-equipped changing rooms, four designed for women
• Team support facilities such as plunge pool; physio/medical space; referees’ changing;and cardio-vascular and injury recovery equipment
• Meeting, seminar and breakout rooms
• A 200-seat auditorium
• A reception area plus exhibition, display and interaction space
• A “Coirneal Gaelige” where only Irish will be spoken
• Kitchen and canteen facilities
• Tyrone GAA offices and storage
• An external performance area modelled on the historic O’Neills’ crowning place at Tullyhogue Fort"

Floppybits

Jaysus how are Dublin having all this success and with no centre of excellence? Makes the 5 in a row all that more remarkable.

bruschi

In terms of what you would be looking for in a centre of excellence, Garvaghy is the Rolls Royce and how it should be done. Granted, its not always possible, for example Carlow have no dressing room facilities at theirs other than prefabs due to financial constraints and for years the one in Meath at Dunganny was similar until they finished off their building. Wexford still have work to do on theirs, but have the majority of the building and pitches completed.

Question is, should the likes of Carlow partner up with Carlow IT and pool resources? Or does it cause conflict in the long run. Personally speaking, I think it is a waste to have 2 top class facilities which one would be used primarily during college hours and the other outside of those hours. Similarly in Waterford, massive chance for them to pool in with WIT which they do in some regards, but something more formal where funds can be spread better between interested parties.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

with a massive, massive helping hand from the GAA headquarters that they dont give any other county. why did Dublin get all the funding after "years of bad decisions and mismanagement" but now other counties should not be entitled to the same benefits afforded to Dublin.

It does not explain how Kildare and Meath fell so far behind (from a position of strength) to struggle to beat/beaten by Westmeath/Louth/Longford etc

The funding issue is now being remedied for those counties

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/1-5m-gaa-funding-boost-for-east-leinster-project-34934104.html

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

Dublin didn't win their first All Ireland of the century until 2011.
They only won 1 Leinster title 2000-2005.
Between 2000 and 2010 Leinster was not competitive nationally, Meath were beaten All Ireland finalists in 2001. That's it.

Leinster were the strongest province of 1995-1999 with Dublin, Meath and Kildare all reaching All Ireland final.

Between Offaly in 1998 and Dublin in 2013, there were no Leinster NFL winners; although Dublin, Meath, Laois, Wexford made the final.

The surge in Dublin funding only started in 2001. Leinster fell away before that could have made any impact.

If there was no back door \ super 8 \ national league, maybe you could make the argument that Dublin are suppressing the Leinster teams post 2011, but I don't see a case to be made for it given those alternative paths.

The implication of what you are saying could not be clearer.

Dublin received significant funding for games development officers wheras the rest of Leinster did not.

The GDF should have been evenly spread across Leinster and genuinely weak counties in particular targeted.

Instead Dublin were singled out for extra treatment over and above the rest of Leinster counties.

No great shock then that while the rest of Leinster continued to fall behind, Dublin surged massively ahead. The rest of Leinster is weak because the GAA have given very little assistance to them. That needs to change significantly otherwise the Leinster championship will remain a bit of a joke for at least a decade to come.

bruschi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It does not explain how Kildare and Meath fell so far behind to struggle to beat/beaten by Westmeath/Louth/Longford etc

The funding issue is now being remedied for those counties

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/1-5m-gaa-funding-boost-for-east-leinster-project-34934104.html

Partially. Its still not widespread and available to all clubs in all those counties. Case by case allocation and at the moment there is a pause on any further appointments. It's a step in the right direction, but is coming years too late.

Kildare, from an outside perspective, seemed to have made a mess of the Hawkfield development in terms of their financing of it and needed bailing out. Even Meath seemed to have ploughed into Dunganny before having the adequate funds to complete it all. Counties (and clubs for that matter) can get hung up on white elephants and the need to have some sort of trophy ground or infrastructure set up, when the first priority should be the players to play in these grounds and centres.

Can be a catch 22 situation, if you dont have a set up for players to buy into, then they arent going to commit their time and effort to it. Give them top class facilities and it makes it a more attractive proposition.

tritium

bruschi wrote: »

with a massive, massive helping hand from the GAA headquarters that they dont give any other county. why did Dublin get all the funding after "years of bad decisions and mismanagement" but now other counties should not be entitled to the same benefits afforded to Dublin.

As for centres of excellence, the vast majority of counties need somewhere to train county teams from senior down to underage. Typically in the past, this would have been done on club grounds or pitches or in some of the county grounds if a county had one. Therefore it makes sense to have a central location of 4 or 5 pitches where it can have resources directly for county teams to train in. Gyms, meeting rooms, pitches etc without having to be a burden on clubs. Most counties also do not have national centres of excellence nor multiple third level institutes who have such facilities to hand where they can avail of these rather then needing to specifically build their own.

For example, Cork dont have a centre of excellence, it seems they put their infrastructure needs on PUC rather than a centre. As they have facilities in the Mardyke and CIT, as well as the likes of Mallow and Nemo, I suppose that was their logic in not pursuing one. Tipperary dont have one either and are planning to do one in either Semple or Dr Morris Park last I heard. Laois did theirs with O Moore Park. Carlow did one out towards Fenagh direction. A lot of counties do have one and many more still dont.

I’m pretty sure none of the dublin posters here have said no one else should get money. Actually most of them are very supportive of rolling out strong games development in weaker counties. That said it’s a bit disingenuous to say dublin got “all the money”- a quick look at how games development personnel are dispersed across the country indicates something quite different. That’s not to say that the same model is used across the country though- in some cases population density would inevitably make region based distribution a more effective use of resources than locating them in a single pocket. However the distribution per capita would be more interesting and relevant, possibly adjusted also for age profiles given how their role is intended to work.

Your last two paragraphs are contradicting each other tbh. It’s been extensively detailed here that many counties have links with third level institutes, and indeed in many cases also have a COE. Indeed dublin are another who don’t have a COE- presumably it’s fine that they don’t have their own dedicated facilities because other organizations are dying to let them have time and facilities ahead of anyone else? As another poster pointed out they don’t use the national centre (I believe dublin funded the gym there so may avail of it)

Floppybits

bruschi wrote: »

In terms of what you would be looking for in a centre of excellence, Garvaghy is the Rolls Royce and how it should be done. Granted, its not always possible, for example Carlow have no dressing room facilities at theirs other than prefabs due to financial constraints and for years the one in Meath at Dunganny was similar until they finished off their building. Wexford still have work to do on theirs, but have the majority of the building and pitches completed.

Question is, should the likes of Carlow partner up with Carlow IT and pool resources? Or does it cause conflict in the long run. Personally speaking, I think it is a waste to have 2 top class facilities which one would be used primarily during college hours and the other outside of those hours. Similarly in Waterford, massive chance for them to pool in with WIT which they do in some regards, but something more formal where funds can be spread better between interested parties.

Is this why Dublin don't have one because the players would use the likes of UCD and DCU, etc? I seen Alan Brogan using the gym in the NAC when he was playing, I know others use the Westwood gyms in Clontarf and Leopardstown. Are the centres of excellence being setup because of a lack of facilities in the county or are they someones pet project? Most importantly are the producing the results?

It would make sense to pool resources, it would cost less but I can also see why institutes such as Carlow IT or Waterford IT may not want to have the inter county teams coming into their facilities, essentially taking over and forcing other users out at particular times.

tritium

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The implication of what you are saying could not be clearer.

Dublin received significant funding for games development officers wheras the rest of Leinster did not.

The GDF should have been evenly spread across Leinster and genuinely weak counties in particular targeted.

Instead Dublin were singled out for extra treatment over and above the rest of Leinster counties.

No great shock then that while the rest of Leinster continued to fall behind, Dublin surged massively ahead. The rest of Leinster is weak because the GAA have given very little assistance to them. That needs to change significantly otherwise the Leinster championship will remain a bit of a joke for at least a decade to come.

What do you think the correct ratio of games development personnel should be between say dublin and the rest of Leinster? What basis do you use to arrive at that ratio?

ToBeFrank123

Deleted User wrote: »

Where would you have put it, out of interest?

Its blatantly obvious Athlone is far more accessible to people from Donegal, Sligo, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, and most of the country than Dublin.

Its far more accessible basically for everyone in Ulster, Connacht, Munster, the Midlands and most of Leinster.

Another mistake from the GAA, one among countless. These guys are clueless.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

No great shock then that while the rest of Leinster continued to fall behind, .

Again if you look at it within leinster this does not tell the full story Kildare and Meath went backwards and Westmeath/Longford/Louth/Laois made ground on them.

If you take Dublin out the equation how do you explain Kildare and Meath's fall from grace - since all other leinster counties were being treated equally?
'Neglected' as you put it.
Kildare/Meath have/had a posiition of strength and advantages over every other county in Leinster except Dublin.
It has being like this for decades.
Yet they have flopped and underachieved against similarly 'neglected' teams of smaller populace / tradition and resources - Westmeath/Louth/Wicklow etc

In my view the demise of Meath/Kildare relative to other lesser counties in leinster is a significant factor to this whole thread.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its blatantly obvious Athlone is far more accessible to people from Donegal, Sligo, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, and most of the country than Dublin.

Its far more accessible basically for everyone in Ulster, Connacht, Munster, the Midlands and most of Leinster.

Another mistake from the GAA, one among countless. These guys are clueless.

I already guessed you were going to say that a few days ago.

Brasilia took a while to make in Brazil though...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bras%C3%ADlia+-+Brasilia,+Federal+District,+Brazil/@-15.9696056,-65.9700186,4z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x935a3d18df9ae275:0x738470e469754a24!8m2!3d-15.7942287!4d-47.8821658

Not sure they would manage it so well near athlone...

ToBeFrank123

tritium wrote: »

What do you think the correct ratio of games development personnel should be between say dublin and the rest of Leinster? What basis do you use to arrive at that ratio?

Given that GDO's are assigned to clubs it should be by registered players.

It should not be per capita, because the non national population of Dublin is massive and its already been established they don't play GAA.

So per registered player would be the fairest. And then extra funding to weaker counties.

I'm enjoying the way Dubs portray Dublin as a weaker county in the past by the way. You guys make me laugh if nothing else.

bruschi

tritium wrote: »

I’m pretty sure none of the dublin posters here have said no one else should get money. Actually most of them are very supportive of rolling out strong games development in weaker counties. That said it’s a bit disingenuous to say dublin got “all the money”- a quick look at how games development personnel are dispersed across the country indicates something quite different. That’s not to say that the same model is used across the country though- in some cases population density would inevitably make region based distribution a more effective use of resources than locating them in a single pocket. However the distribution per capita would be more interesting and relevant, possibly adjusted also for age profiles given how their role is intended to work.

Your last two paragraphs are contradicting each other tbh. It’s been extensively detailed here that many counties have links with third level institutes, and indeed in many cases also have a COE. Indeed dublin are another who don’t have a COE- presumably it’s fine that they don’t have their own dedicated facilities because other organizations are dying to let them have time and facilities ahead of anyone else? As another poster pointed out they don’t use the national centre (I believe dublin funded the gym there so may avail of it)

again, you are looking at this as if it is some criticism of Dublin. Whether or not you have seen, but I have nothing against or bad words against Dublin in any of this. They were taken on by the GAA to start a coaching initiative which they did and which works very well. The GAA only made this available in Dublin despite multiple requests for not only spreading it outside Dublin, but even just increasing county wide based coaching staff but for the most part, not even meeting half the demands of a counties coaching requirements.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was lead to believe that pretty much all Dublin ladies activities were based out of Abbotstown and also development squad for boys in Dublin? I had also thought it was used for Dublin underage blitz tournaments as well. I had thought they played Dublin Celtic hurling tournament games there this year too and that club games get played there also.

I'm not sure what is contradicting in the paragraphs, some counties have COE's, some dont. Some counties have 3rd level places that can offer facilities, whilst others, like Limerick for example, have both 3rd level facilities and their own COE.

Floppybits wrote: »

Is this why Dublin don't have one because the players would use the likes of UCD and DCU, etc? I seen Alan Brogan using the gym in the NAC when he was playing, I know others use the Westwood gyms in Clontarf and Leopardstown. Are the centres of excellence being setup because of a lack of facilities in the county or are they someones pet project? Most importantly are the producing the results?

It would make sense to pool resources, it would cost less but I can also see why institutes such as Carlow IT or Waterford IT may not want to have the inter county teams coming into their facilities, essentially taking over and forcing other users out at particular times.

I'd imagine so. Many club facilities would be far more impressive too than county COE's, so there are multiple facilities throughout the capital where it doesnt really necessitate the need to build a dedicated facility just for the county activities when so many resources are there already.

Most COE's are set up due to a lack of facilities. for example, in Wexford, players would train in Patricks Park or some other club grounds but have to do gym work in hotel gyms and get subscriptions covered by county board expenses. Having a dedicated facility where you can congregate to train, do analysis, field work etc but at no additional cost to third parties makes sense. And when no club or 3rd level set up has anything to cover any of these things, there is little option left but to develop a centre.

And your second paragrpah details the issues with joined efforts. Who gets priority, who owns the facility and what happens when there is a falling out? An ideal world would see better municipal projects in general, but we cant even organise things between our own sports, never mind adding another to the mix.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again if you look at it within leinster this does not tell the full story Kildare and Meath went backwards and Westmeath/Longford/Louth/Laois made ground on them.

If you take Dublin out the equation how do you explain Kildare and Meath's fall from grace - since all other leinster counties were being treated equally?
'Neglected' as you put it.
Kildare/Meath have/had a posiition of strength and advantages over every other county in Leinster except Dublin.
It has being like this for decades.
Yet they have flopped and underachieved against similarly 'neglected' teams of smaller populace / tradition and resources - Westmeath/Louth/Wicklow etc

In my view the demise of Meath/Kildare relative to other lesser counties in leinster is a significant factor to this whole thread.

Westmeath/Longford/Louth/Laois have gone backwards too, significantly so. Kildare also in recent years. Meath have just about maintained the same level which is lower division 1/upper division 2. The league is probably the best measure of the standard of counties.


An attempt should have been made to raise standards with funding across the board in Leinster. Instead a sh*tload of money was directed at Dublin. Unsurprising they raced ahead.

The unfortunate thing for the rest of Leinster was the timing of Bertie being in power at a time when Dublin were going through a lull. He couldn't bear to see the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Kildare regularly beat Dublin.

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Given that GDO's are assigned to clubs it should be by registered players.
It should not be per capita, because the non national population of Dublin is massive and its already been established they don't play GAA.
So per registered player would be the fairest. And then extra funding to weaker counties.

The GDOs do a lot of work in schools. The aim is to get more kids playing GAA.
Dublin is the place with the most kids not playing GAA (or sports), which is why it was targeted by the GAA and Sport Ireland for games development.

The Dublin clubs fund half the cost of a GDO. I am sure that makes it appealing for GAA and Sport Ireland, and is one of the reasons why Dublin has so many more GDOs.

SO registered players are not the full equation, and really should never be the basis for games development, in fact it would be contradictory to do so.

I don't think funding should be based solely on population (actually number of school kids would be a better measure, or number of schools running GAA sessions), or solely on registered players.

odyssey06

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The unfortunate thing for the rest of Leinster was the timing of Bertie being in power at a time when Dublin were going through a lull. He couldn't bear to see the likes of Westmeath, Laois and Kildare regularly beat Dublin.

Bertie is gone 10 years from power.
The funding continues because Sport Ireland and the GAA want it to.

Leinster is unfortunate in being crap except for Dublin.
In this century not one senior national title in League or All Ireland from anyone except Dublin.
Between 2000 - 2010 no senior national titles.

Connact & Cork, Armagh, Tyrone each on their own have more titles this century than Leinster excluding Dublin.