The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

bruschi

odyssey06 wrote: »

Match expenses are covered from GAA central funds:
"Travel and hotel expenses and grants, which shall be reviewed annually, shall be paid to teams competing in All-Ireland Quarter-finals, Semi-finals and Finals."

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What travel expenses?

They played 4 games at home in the League this year. Dublin played 4 games away.

In Connacht, Mayo played New York - which I mean, hardly impinges on their travel costs given the Connacht Council stump up for that afaik. They then got beaten by Roscommon in Castlebar, beat Down in Newry, Armagh in Castlebar, Galway in Limerick and then had Donegal in Castlebar in the Super 8s with the other two games in Killarney and Croke Park respectively.

Have you got a breakdown of the Mayo CBs accounts detailing what all that money was spent on?

Maybe if Mayo won Connacht for a change they woudln't be stumping up so much needless cash traipsing around the country.

just a small point lads, travel expense on gamedays wouldnt be the biggest cost of travel expenses for a county. for every match, you would have many more training sessions. All players who travel to training are entitled to expenses which the county board has to pay. I'm not sure of what way to get around something like that, but it is a huge and considerable expense on most counties outside of Dublin.

See below for a statement requested on Mayos expenses.
https://www.the42.ie/mayo-gaa-3-3115597-Dec2016/

Their travel costs comprise of nearly 40% of their entire expenditure. This is not a percentage that would be unusual in other counties either.

Whether or which their travel costs or other costs are well spent or not, it is a huge burden on all counties of having to cover mileage expenses for all players going to trainings.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

Given that 1/3 of Mayo's total attendance for the championship came in one match v Dublin, there is an element of double counting.

It's not that easy to find a single source with attendances, or if there is google didn't find it for me...
Dublin had 47000 for the Leinster Final, and 35000 for a double header Leinster semi-final. 36,530 for Dublin-Roscommon, which was a double-header with Tyrone-Cork, and 30,214 for Dublin-Cork. 15000 for Tyrone in Omagh. I'm guessing 18,000 for the first Leinster game.

There's not that much difference in the figures, but Dublin's average per game is much higher.

Its difficult to estimate for double headers, but you certainly wouldn't count the total attendance as many people are not there to see the full Dublin game.

Omitting the double headers you're at 193,000.

So you'll have to guess at what the Dublin games share of the double headers were a bit like the Mayo game. I'll be generous and say 25k for Dublin v Roscommon and 25k for the leinster semi final.

That gives a total of 243,000. Not a great deal more than Mayo to be fair. Dublin have reached the final of course which is where they will pull ahead.

But, Mayo are not being subsidised. Something like 230,000 attended their games, and if you said 20 euro on average per ticket (some were more, some were less) that's roughly 4.6 million euro.

And what do Mayo get in GDF annually from the GAA?

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

Mayo spend the most of all counties on their senior team. Any funding they get from Croke Park is concentrated into the senior team. It is a very short-sighted approach and will cost them in the next decade.

The best approach for senior success is the one taken by Kerry. Concentrate on training the best of the 14 and 15-year olds and develop them into real players, giving them a culture of winning at minor level, take the best into the senior squad, while at the same time ignoring mass participation.

A statement of fact. Can you please show where "any funding Mayo get is concentrated into the senior team".

Please note, any figures that people are discussing are to do with "games and coaching development". If you could clearly identify your claim, that Croke Park funds issued to Mayo are spent on the senior team.

Your other fact on Kerry "ignoring mass participation" is another lovely statement of fact. Any basis of proof on that?

Thanks.

LeinsterDub

beggars_bush wrote: »

When was it ever voted in though?
It was never brought to congress
It's the full time staff in the GAA who decide policy
And surprise, surprise they are all located in?

The full time staff are directed by the counties.

BonnieSituation

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I gave you an estimate of the Mayo figures. Its easy to check the real figures if you have the time which you no doubt have.

Do you have the Dublin figures or do I have to do that too?

Yes you do.

You brought it up as a point. This is how the real world works.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

Given that 1/3 of Mayo's total attendance for the championship came in one match v Dublin, there is an element of double counting.

It's not that easy to find a single source with attendances, or if there is google didn't find it for me...
Dublin had 47000 for the Leinster Final, and 35000 for a double header Leinster semi-final. 36,530 for Dublin-Roscommon, which was a double-header with Tyrone-Cork, and 30,214 for Dublin-Cork. 15000 for Tyrone in Omagh. I'm guessing 18,000 for the first Leinster game.

There's not that much difference in the figures, but Dublin's average per game is much higher.

And 1/3 of Dublins total attendance so far of 243,000 also came from the same game.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Frank intimated that more people watched Mayo than Dublin this year.

So I wanted the figures.

Oh right I see I missed that bit - I only put that bit in cos I could let the two of you at it - and be safer away from it!

It is an interesting question - most Dublin league games were about the 30k/40k mark there was one where it was really low 17k against galway - Baltic day and a big rugby game was on. England v Ireland I think.
I have no idea what the average attendances for Mayo games are Mchale Park holds 25k
So it would want to be at least three quarters full each game to match Dublin.
Doubt that happens?
On the telly during the league I always seems to see those empty/uncomfortable/horrible stone seats that they have in McHale park.

But in 2018 they blamed the early absence of Mayo in the championship as gate receipts fell. Which just shows how good Mayo supporters are in coming out supporting thier team.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1093227262776758272

BonnieSituation

bruschi wrote: »

just a small point lads, travel expense on gamedays wouldnt be the biggest cost of travel expenses for a county. for every match, you would have many more training sessions. All players who travel to training are entitled to expenses which the county board has to pay. I'm not sure of what way to get around something like that, but it is a huge and considerable expense on most counties outside of Dublin.

See below for a statement requested on Mayos expenses.
https://www.the42.ie/mayo-gaa-3-3115597-Dec2016/

Their travel costs comprise of nearly 40% of their entire expenditure. This is not a percentage that would be unusual in other counties either.

Whether or which their travel costs or other costs are well spent or not, it is a huge burden on all counties of having to cover mileage expenses for all players going to trainings.

Absolutely but my response was to a poster who claimed that Dublin have an expenses advantage for playing at Croke Park. So as Dublin don't train in Croker I assume it was match day expenses that he was concerned with and I approached the response in that fashion.

I'm sure you understand.

odyssey06

bruschi wrote: »

just a small point lads, travel expense on gamedays wouldnt be the biggest cost of travel expenses for a county. for every match, you would have many more training sessions. All players who travel to training are entitled to expenses which the county board has to pay. I'm not sure of what way to get around something like that, but it is a huge and considerable expense on most counties outside of Dublin...
Their travel costs comprise of nearly 40% of their entire expenditure. This is not a percentage that would be unusual in other counties either.
Whether or which their travel costs or other costs are well spent or not, it is a huge burden on all counties of having to cover mileage expenses for all players going to trainings.

I was responding specifically to the point about Mayo having to pay for trips to Croke Park, which would be for matches.

My understanding is that HQ covers 20% of mileage expenses, but yes, it's a situation without obvious remedy. Regardless of whether Dublin are dominant or not, having amateur players commute half way across the country for training is not a good situation, whoever is footing the bill for the expenses.

I know in the Premier League, there is a bonus paid to counties for TV appearances. I think if this is not already a feature of the Sky Sports deal it should be, as it seems a reasonable basis for TV money distribution.

bruschi

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Absolutely but my response was to a poster who claimed that Dublin have an expenses advantage for playing at Croke Park. So as Dublin don't train in Croker I assume it was match day expenses that he was concerned with and I approached the response in that fashion.

I'm sure you understand.

to be honest, its hard to sift through the proper discussions and nonsense talk. Talk about Dublin players jobs etc do nothing for any proper discussion.

Match day costs, for whatever relevance they were in the original point, wouldnt factor the largest part of a counties expense. The weekly training and catering costs would be a considerable expense. Nothing to do with Dublin, but another factor in large expenses for other counties.

Gachla

The huge number of professional coaches gets highlighted but the highly paid officials who oversee the system which has increased standards accross all age and levels in Dublin GAA don't get as much attention. Here's some of the job roles:

Strategic Program Manager

Games Development Project Coordinator

Regional Development Manager

High Performance Manager

Dublin GAA pay millions in wages every year but of course all of this has no impact in the huge increase in standards in Dublin GAA. :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

I was thinking is the simplest solution that the dublin coaches have to do a tour of other counties - past on expertise and knowledge to youngsters?

Let other coaches visit thier Dublin cul camps as well.
Or does all this stuff already happen?

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Oh right I see I missed that bit - I only put that bit in cos I could let the two of you at it - and be safer away from it!

It is an interesting question - most Dublin league games were about the 30k/40k mark there was one where it was really low 17k against galway - Baltic day and a big rugby game was on. England v Ireland I think.
I have no idea what the average attendances for Mayo games are Mchale Park holds 52k.
So it would want to be at least three quarters full each game to match Dublin.
Doubt that happens?
On the telly during the league I always seems to see those empty/uncomfortable/horrible stone seats that they have in McHale park.

But in 2018 they blamed the early absence of Mayo in the championship as gate receipts fell. Which just shows how good Mayo supporters are in coming out supporting thier team.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1093227262776758272

Absolutely. And it also shows that Mayo are not in any way subsidised and in fact generate far more revenue for the GAA than they receive back in Games development funding. Another disadvantage among many.

The list continues to grow. All people are asking for is fairness and balance when it comes to games development funds. Without it the sport of gaelic football is heading for oblivion.

ToBeFrank123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Absolutely but my response was to a poster who claimed that Dublin have an expenses advantage for playing at Croke Park. So as Dublin don't train in Croker I assume it was match day expenses that he was concerned with and I approached the response in that fashion.

I'm sure you understand.

Mayo pay mileage for training. Its a huge county. I'm sure Dublin do too, but for Mayo lads, you could be talking a 40 or 50 mile round trip to training if living in Mayo and a 300 mile one if living in Dublin which many of them do.

For Dubs, what would the average round trip distance be for training?

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

The huge number of professional coaches gets highlighted but the highly paid officials who oversee the system which has increased standards accross all age and levels in Dublin GAA don't get as much attention. Here's some of the job roles:

Strategic Program Manager

Games Development Project Coordinator

Regional Development Manager

High Performance Manager

Dublin GAA pay millions in wages every year but of course all of this has no impact in the huge increase in standards in Dublin GAA. :rolleyes:

With the sheer numbers of players Dubline have to deal with - structure is needed or it would be chaos.

So what you are saying is other counties just have to give thier coaches fancy titles?




----


Tyrone have a 'performance hub' -

https://tyronegaa.ie/hub/


And an Academy -

https://tyronegaa.ie/academy/



A coaching and games committee -

https://tyronegaa.ie/county-board/na-fo-choisti-sub-committees/coaching-and-games/

Gachla

Didn't everyone read the article where GDO's were interviewed? They have been involved in the Dublin system from when it was introduced. This is one quote from the article. It's from Paraic McDonald, here he is discussing the difference in standards of development squads from when he started out to now:

"I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching.

I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

This is from someone directly involved. It basically blows the Dublin fans bluster out of the water.

The high horse brigade

[quote="gormdubhgorm;110964492"
I have no idea what the average attendances for Mayo games are Mchale Park holds 52k.
So it would want to be at least three quarters full each game to match Dublin.
Doubt that happens?
On the telly during the league I always seems to see those empty/uncomfortable/horrible stone seats that they have in McHale park.

[/quote]

McHale park does not hold 52k, 35k I think is the current max figure but it's lately been reduced to 25 for safety reasons if only one match

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So what you are saying is other counties just have to give thier coaches fancy titles?

Plus look at the numbers of players they have to deal with structure is needed or it would be chaos.

Am no, the coaches are separate! These are officials focused on player development, they are highly paid and they oversee everything. They are a vital cog in the system.

kilns

I think this thread could go on and on forever as guys like tobefrank123 will never acknowledge anything reasonably good came could ever come out of Dublin

gormdubhgorm

The high horse brigade wrote: »

McHale park does not hold 52k, 35k I think is the current max figure but it's lately been reduced to 25 for safety reasons if only one match

You are correct I read it wrong bus eireann routes 52, 400 - got mangled in my head - like an eejit!

So there is no way that the attendances equate to Dublin so as they would be lucky to have 15k average most of the time in Castlebar?

The high horse brigade

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are correct I read it wrong bus eireann routes 52, 400 - got mangled in my head - like an eejit!

So there is no way that the attendances equate to Dublin so as they would be lucky to have 15k average most of the time in Castlebar?

I believe I read somewhere Mayo have 15k season ticket holders, I've no source for that figure though

bruschi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I was thinking is the simplest solution that the dublin coaches have to do a tour of other counties - past on expertise and knowledge to youngsters?

Let other coaches visit thier Dublin cul camps as well.
Or does all this stuff already happen?

Its not even a case of needing the Dublin coaches to show them how to do it, its more a case of providing the coaches who are able to do it long term. It's not rocket science, most of the full time GPO/GDA/GDO are third level qualified graduates in sports related fields with level 2 GAA coaching. As mentioned previously, the East Leinster project, goes some way to addressing this, but it is not widespread. Some details written about it here

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/02/07/news/gaa-defends-urban-investment-as-it-offers-leinster-counties-50-50-coaching-model-1546051/

the Dublin coaching model wasnt devised and thought up of by Dublin County board, it was part of a GAA initiative and the set up and organisation of it is still run by and through the GAA head office, whether directly at Croke Park or Leinster council offices (or the various other provincial offices). It is a great initiative and is working well now in other clubs where it is in progress.

gormdubhgorm

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I believe I read somewhere Mayo have 15k season ticket holders, I've no source for that figure though

That would sound about right considering the size of the ground.
I would love to know what the split was in the Dublin v Mayo game - it seemed like Mayo outnumbered the Dubs - they were everywhere.

I would say there is no notion that Mayo's attendance will outnumber Dublin over the season though.

Most of Dublin's games were at least 30k-40k barring the freak 17k game v Galway - (I though I got the time wrong there was little activity that day)

So I would say Dublin's attendance would be pushing double Mayo's over the year.
Still very impressive from Mayo considering the population difference.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They are an exceptional core group of players - if those Dublin u12 players (2005) were moved to Mayo (and did not emigrate) Mayo would have a few all-ireland's won
Surely Mayo's coaching would not be that poor to 'ruin' them?
Or are you saying that Mayo GAA does not know how to coach players?

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Dots1982

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Anyone who thinks cutting the funding will stop Dublin isn’t properly understanding the issue.

The current inter county competition structure is doomed. The drawn out debates here about funding are largely pointless.

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

These are rough estimates based on memory, but will look for exact stats later.

Donegal v Mayo 25k
Kerry v Mayo 30k
Meath v Mayo double header but probably 15k Mayo and 10k Meath fans. Hard to know with double headers. So guessing 25k
Galway v Mayo 20k
Armagh v Mayo 10k
Down v Mayo 8k
Dublin v Mayo 82k
Roscommon v Mayo 20k
Mayo v NY 10k

Rough total = 230,000 attended Mayo games during the championship. So anyone who says Mayo are being subsidised etc are talking nonsense.

In 2017 with the replay with Kerry, it was probably as high. Also 2016 and 2015 with the Dublin replays.

My figures were slightly underestimated for Mayo.

Mayo v Armagh 18,500k
Mayo v Donegal 27k
Mayo v Kerry 31k
Mayo v Galway 19k
Mayo v Roscommon 20,500
Mayo v Dublin 82,500
Mayo v Down - can't find this but I think it was about 8k
Mayo v Meath - approx 25k
Mayo v NY - I think 10k

So roughly 240k in total.

They get about 45,000 in gdf per year. That's the grand total of 20 cents per person attending a Mayo game.

And you wonder how Mayo struggle to compete?

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Would ya look at the players ya picked - not an Eoghan O'Gara in sight!

Bastic was never going to be a skillful player he would always have been a destroyer a fella who breaks tackles - breaks up play

McCauley is an unusual case his background was basketball - Ireland u19 and came to GAA late.
That is why he looks unorthodox and awkward at times.

Ger Brennan was a tiger of a player that was his style - never lost the ball much as far as I can remember - so you could argue he was under-rated technically.

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

StupidLikeAFox

kilns wrote: »

I think this thread could go on and on forever as guys like tobefrank123 will never acknowledge anything reasonably good came could ever come out of Dublin

You said earlier:

So many things are cyclical and this is an example, Dublin benefitted from a perfect storm, an amazing group of players, a fantastic manager who facilitated them and the standards of other counties dropping.

All this may be true, can you yourself acknowledge the fact that Dublin also got significantly more help than any other county from the GAA, in terms of help with setting up professional structures and a bucket load of cash to fund those structures, or is that not considered part of the "perfect storm"?

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Teaching seven-year olds in primary school to use both feet is not rocket science.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

My figures were slightly underestimated for Mayo.

Mayo v Armagh 18,500k
Mayo v Donegal 27k
Mayo v Kerry 31k
Mayo v Galway 19k
Mayo v Roscommon 20,500
Mayo v Dublin 82,500
Mayo v Down - can't find this but I think it was about 8k
Mayo v Meath - approx 25k
Mayo v NY - I think 10k

So roughly 240k in total.

They get about 45,000 in gdf per year. That's the grand total of 20 cents per person attending a Mayo game.

And you wonder how Mayo struggle to compete?

Always the focus on the Championship, not even the League, let alone the club scene.

Too many Mayo fans have a singular focus on their senior team's Championship performance to the exclusion of everything else.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

If Ireland were the only one's with huge numbers of professional coaches while every other country had very little, then you would see us make big inroads and then you would be making a fair comparison.

Gachla

blanch152 wrote: »

Teaching seven-year olds in primary school to use both feet is not rocket science.

Having professional coaches available makes it much easier.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Always the focus on the Championship, not even the League, let alone the club scene.

Too many Mayo fans have a singular focus on their senior team's Championship performance to the exclusion of everything else.

Mayo's attendances are decent in both the league and the club championship.

Probably not as high as Dublins, but pretty respectable for the league.

Want to bring in the FBD League too?

The point is, Mayo bring big crowds and their reward is piss poor gdf and games stuck behind a paywall.

The GAA need Mayo to be strong and rival the big teams. The GAA are clueless about this hence the GAA led death spiral. Doing nothing to help teams create rivalries. This is the main outcome of funding imbalances - the end of close rivalries.

gormdubhgorm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You said earlier:

All this may be true, can you yourself acknowledge the fact that Dublin also got significantly more help than any other county from the GAA, in terms of help with setting up professional structures and a bucket load of cash to fund those structures, or is that not considered part of the "perfect storm"?

I agree with you there if Dublin had the same funding and lesser players/management structure to chose from - you would ironically hear less about the funding. As they would be less successful.

But as the players/management structure are top notch and really successful they are not praised and the funding becomes the focus!

That dichotomy amuses me no end.

But you mix funding with top notch players and management - the others are really playing catch up especially if they do not have thier own house in order.

All three of these can change for Dubin -

1) Dublin given less funding gradually

2) Dublin getting a head the ball manager who falls out with players

3) Players who are not that goof=d/players who fall out with management

Funding issue should be easily sorted, when Gavin steps down Dubs fans will be worried, when the old guard of players go Dubs fans will be worried.

bruschi

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

If Ireland were the only one's with huge numbers of professional coaches while every other country had very little, then you would see us make big inroads and then you would be making a fair comparison.

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

Yeah Alan was one of first new breed of 'head up' Dublin footballers.
They were really rare for Dublin dependant on the auld lads - Farreller and Jayo before him.

I remember the Kerry pundits used to say Dublin did not produced 'footballers' - you couldn't really argue with them then.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would ya look at the players ya picked - not an Eoghan O'Gara in sight!

Bastic was never going to be a skillful player he would always have been a destroyer a fella who breaks tackles - breaks up play

McCauley is an unusual case his background was basketball - Ireland u19 and came to GAA late.
That is why he looks unorthodox and awkward at times.

Ger Brennan was a tiger of a player that was his style - never lost the ball much as far as I can remember - so you could argue he was under-rated technically.

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

Ogara another example yes. I know the skills of the other players, you dont have to describe them...
My point is, without the coaching these guys have unquestionably improved with, someone like fenton is probably a bit more like bastick, skillwise. Maybe still superior, but Im sure you get the logic.
Mccauley didnt get the coaching and you can tell - that is the relative point here, what he was doing besides doesnt matter.

Re ireland soccer, no real investment, a basketcase association etc. you know as well as I do there are seriously debilitating factors at play there. Also, 2 coaches arent going to do much for a national team. How many in dublin again?
Not that it matters here - they are two completely different cases...

Father Hernandez

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Exactly. You could say the same with China vs Germany in footballing terms.

Population has no bearing.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Westmeath beat Dublin in 2004. It could be done before things changed for Dublin. Dublin already had the population advantage, they then were handed a huge financial advantage. When you think about it it's absolutely bonkers!

MayoAreMagic

bruschi wrote: »

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

Im sure he has kicked points with his weaker foot. My point is he very obviously had a weaker foot. Similarly, a guy like mark vaughan although considered technical was quite a one sided player compared to todays players. That isnt obvious with dublins elite players now. Scully and howard are top players but they are doing workhorse roles for Dublin, such is the level of their other players. My point is even the guys in those roles are more two footed than the likes of alan brogan before them, who was the star of the show in his time. Obviously we can take from that that the technical level has increased exponentially. This comes down to coaching.

snotboogie

Dots1982 wrote: »

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Anyone who thinks cutting the funding will stop Dublin isn’t properly understanding the issue.

The current inter county competition structure is doomed. The drawn out debates here about funding are largely pointless.

Cork enjoys a similar population advantage in Hurling, well over double the population of the next county who takes the sport seriously (Galway) and three to five times the population of the rest of their rivals (Limerick, Tipp, Clare, Kilkenny, Waterford), between 1991 and 2016 the population increase in Cork is larger than the current populations of Clare, Waterford and Kilkenny yet they can't even win a title, never mind dominate.

odyssey06

Dots1982 wrote: »

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Yeah but that increase is mostly accounted for by non-GAA species Dubs... it's country folk, foreigners and southside rugby heads.

But if we can integrate the country folk's cultural and genetic DNA for GAA skills, i.e. shanghai their offspring into Dublin jerseys, then it'll be a Dublin double in both All Irelands forever.

* this post is only half serious

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Ogara another example yes. I know the skills of the other players, you dont have to describe them...
My point is, without the coaching these guys have unquestionably improved with, someone like fenton is probably a bit more like bastick, skillwise. Maybe still superior, but Im sure you get the logic.
Mccauley didnt get the coaching and you can tell - that is the relative point here, what he was doing besides doesnt matter.

Re ireland soccer, no real investment, a basketcase association etc. you know as well as I do there are seriously debilitating factors at play there. Also, 2 coaches arent going to do much for a national team. How many in dublin again?
Not that it matters here - they are two completely different cases...

I don't see Bastic being like Fenton with any amount of training.
Do you see how fast Fenton is for a start - much lighter on his feet, Bastic not the same type of player at all never will be.

The point is often made about McCauley who is probably the most relevant to your argument - that because he is unorthodox he is more likely to cause trouble for backs.
You could argue he would not be as good with training.

Plus have you noticed that the silky skills of Bernard Brogan (played great in Omagh) was dropped completely for EOG on the bench v Mayo the last day?

The only logical reason is that Gavin wanted an awkward lump on the bench v Mayo not a Brogan type player.

Plus you should have mentioned Jack McCaffery, He used to do a lot of weight training - but tailed it back because he felt it was slowing him down.

If you look at Vinny Murohy his game suffered because of too much bulk - was far better lighter less muscle.

What Dublin do is tailor training individually to players strengths like Jack Mc.
There is no point in trying to get the likes of Bastic to do skills training not his strength.
I assume other counties have cottoned on to this and it is not a 'one size fits all' training that you seem to advocate?

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

Westmeath beat Dublin in 2004. It could be done before things changed for Dublin. Dublin already had the population advantage, they then were handed a huge financial advantage. When you think about it it's absolutely bonkers!

I agree if anything the money should have been lashed out to Westmeath when they were on that high, Laois, Offaly, and Kildare as well when they had thier runs in the 00's
All four to greater/lesser have suffered since.
Easy saying it in hindsight now though.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Arguing that population has no bearing, and using international soccer as an example, is ridiculous. It's been well-documented that both population and money make a huge difference in that field, assuming that soccer is actually popular in the countries in question.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

It wasn't just a once off Iceland did it again in subsequent games.

This is how they did set up the plan - it was not an overnight success.

Some intercounty teams have no excuses in Ireland

Scoundrel

It's very simple really why Dublin are dominating they have a multi million euro senior set up and the others don't it's not like Dublin are dominating underage Kildare have won the 4 of the last 7 Leinster minors Meath have won 1 and Dublin 2 Kildare won the U20 all Ireland last year, beating Dublin out the gate in the process talent and hard work aren't the difference it's the money available in their respective senior set ups. The fact that the GAA the authorities actually running the sport have helped fund this inequality is mind boggling if it were in any other sport it would be called corruption imagine if the IRFU funded Leinster more than the rest put together or the FAI funded Shamrock Rovers more than the rest put together there'd be uproar but in the GAA it's fine.

snotboogie

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

Once you reach a certain critical mass you can compete, plenty of countries with under 10 million can consistently compete with nations with around 100 million. The issue in GAA is that the counties with the critical mass to compete with Dublin either have a huge portion of their population who won't play GAA (Antrim, Down and Derry) or where football is a minority sport (Cork, Galway and Limerick). Kildade and Meath should provide some hope going forward.