All-Ireland SFC Final 2019.- Dublin V Kerry - Read Mod Note in Post #1

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Ah well, at least I tried. Seems like he's not that interested in the actual football.

When people start responding to themselves, it tends to get very strange.

Kerry will have learned from the poor performance put up by Mayo in the semi-final. All Mayo had was a physical approach that ran out of steam.

Kerry are smarter than that. They will have a couple of different plans for Dublin at varying stages in the game. They have better forwards than Mayo and should score a lot more if they manage to get their share of the ball.

This game will be a lot closer than many think, only 5 at the most, but Dublin should squeeze it.

blanch152

spurshero wrote: »

there was no problem with tickers when there was only 30 000 for there super 8 game v cork or for the less then half full leinster final .

The Dubs are the same as the Kerry of the 1980s, only go to the semi-final and final. That is where they belong.

gormdubhgorm

spurshero wrote: »

there was no problem with tickers when there was only 30 000 for there super 8 game v cork or for the less then half full leinster final .

The super 8's game v Cork is a very disingenuous comparison.
Even when cork football was going well they did not get the crowds.
Hurling always triumphs football with the Cork support.

No mention of the full house Dublin v Mayo or the full house Tyrone v Dublin in Omagh...

seligehgit

Mod Warning

An awful lot of off topic discussion going on,specifically material that is for discussion in The Dominance of Dublin GAA thread.Not a whole lot of on field discussion.

Can all posters ensure from the thread re the most important day in the gaelic football calendar is not spoiled for everybody.

gormdubhgorm

Pat Spillane gave a very detailed preview of his thoughts of the game here :

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/pat-spillane-three-key-backroom-battles-that-will-decide-if-sam-maguiregoes-to-dublin-or-kerry-38437427.html

I would agree with him that Cian O'Sullivan would start - but I thought that was obvious.
How could you leave a fella like that out in game like this?

He thinks that Kerry won't go with a sweeper since it didn't work v Tyrone.
Pat's idea seems to be - force Dublin to defend as much as possible and hope for the best.

The_Honeybadger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Pat Spillane gave a very detailed preview of his thoughts of the game here :

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/pat-spillane-three-key-backroom-battles-that-will-decide-if-sam-maguiregoes-to-dublin-or-kerry-38437427.html

I would agree with him that Cian O'Sullivan would start - but I thought that was obvious.
How could you leave a fella like that out in game like this?

He thinks that Kerry won't go with a sweeper since it didn't work v Tyrone.
Pat's idea seems to be - force Dublin to defend as much as possible and hope for the best.

I’d tend to agree with him, that is probably Kerry’s best hope we have really been hit and miss with the sweeper system. Kerry need to push up and take Dublin’s sweeper away. It might still end in defeat, they’d be risking a hammering actually but I don’t think they’ll win any other way.

Prestonites

Throw in for the first game takes place at 10.30am on Saturday, 31st August and each team will play a minimum of three games before the winners' advance towards the final event which takes place that evening at Kilmacud Crokes' Glenablyn.

Also any Crokes clubmen who havent been notified class nominations for tickets are to be done it was meant to be wednesday but its tonight and tomorrow. Call 012880857- ONLY fully paid members.

Its finaaaaal weeeeeeek.

Bonniedog

Andy Moran announced his retirement tonight.

Great player. Will be long remembered.

Got a warm reception from the Hill at the end of the semi final when he came down.

Best of luck to him.

Prestonites

Bonniedog wrote: »

Andy Moran announced his retirement tonight.

Great player. Will be long remembered.

Got a warm reception from the Hill at the end of the semi final when he came down.

Best of luck to him.

Andy wasnt the worst far worse out there. Same wont be said for Cillian, Lee or AOS.

corny

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I’d tend to agree with him, that is probably Kerry’s best hope we have really been hit and miss with the sweeper system. Kerry need to push up and take Dublin’s sweeper away. It might still end in defeat, they’d be risking a hammering actually but I don’t think they’ll win any other way.

The sweeper stuff is a bit passe when it comes to Dublin. There's still the perception in Kerry (only hear it from Kerry voices anyway) that Dublin defend like its 2015 with Cian O'Sullivan master of the space in front of the full back line. We don't really play like that anymore. Game has moved on. At least it has in Dublin!

Dublin gradually retreat in numbers while keeping pressure on the ball. They'll have several sweepers in place if the opposition are slow in transition. If you 'push up' as you say Dublin will number up and all you're doing is leaving more room for them to hit you on the counter. Move the ball quickly when its on but when its not, accept that slow and methodical build up is needed. Kerry at least have players who are composed in possession.

At the other end? If Kerry naively play 6 on 6 with space in front of them they'll concede an unmatchable score. They'll have to ape the above (retreat en masse) and look to be better in possession than Dublin. That needs tactical nous and its why i'd be astonished if Dublin lose. They're more experienced and better drilled at what they're doing.

gormdubhgorm

corny wrote: »

The sweeper stuff is a bit passe when it comes to Dublin. There's still the perception in Kerry (only hear it from Kerry voices anyway) that Dublin defend like its 2015 with Cian O'Sullivan master of the space in front of the full back line. We don't really play like that anymore. Game has moved on. At least it has in Dublin!

Dublin gradually retreat in numbers while keeping pressure on the ball. They'll have several sweepers in place if the opposition are slow in transition. If you 'push up' as you say Dublin will number up and all you're doing is leaving more room for them to hit you on the counter. Move the ball quickly when its on but when its not, accept that slow and methodical build up is needed. Kerry at least have players who are composed in possession.

At the other end? If Kerry naively play 6 on 6 with space in front of them they'll concede an unmatchable score. They'll have to ape the above (retreat en masse) and look to be better in possession than Dublin. That needs tactical nous and its why i'd be astonished if Dublin lose. They're more experienced and better drilled at what they're doing.

Doesn't Howard and Scully take turns dropping back finding space as well then laying it off.
I am sure Kerry will have some sorta plan - god knows they have enough of football experience in the county to give bits of advise.
Funny enough Tomas O'Se seems to be wasted on TSG - surely he should be given a role in the set up?

ArielAtom

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

True, must have been offered tickets on at least 5 occasions now for Sunday. Wouldn't waste my money

Dublin will win by at least 10 points

Grab me a few tickets, I’d love them. PM me when you have them and I’ll drive and collect.

The_Honeybadger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Doesn't Howard and Scully take turns dropping back finding space as well then laying it off.
I am sure Kerry will have some sorta plan - god knows they have enough of football experience in the county to give bits of advise.
Funny enough Tomas O'Se seems to be wasted on TSG - surely he should be given a role in the set up?

Dublin usually have at least one spare man back despite Corny’s patronising ramblings of tactical superiority and how Dublin have moved beyond such things.

I very much doubt Kerry will lose this one on the sideline

Bonniedog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Doesn't Howard and Scully take turns dropping back finding space as well then laying it off.

Was in lower Hogan for the Kildare game and spent most of it watching Howard and Scully. They are the Ghosts in the Machine.

They do so much work it is a marvel just to watch them alone. To nullify their threat Kerry will have to set two of the half backs on them. Howard and Scully will drag them out of place and leave gaping gaps.

And if they do that then, its all in - all chips on the table, because of they lose that one. Dublin will swamp them and they don't even have the nous and experience of Tyrone or Mayo or Donegal to counter this Dublin team when it scents blood.

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Was in lower Hogan for the Kildare game and spent most of it watching Howard and Scully. They are the Ghosts in the Machine.

They do so much work it is a marvel just to watch them alone. To nullify their threat Kerry will have to set two of the half backs on them. Howard and Scully will drag them out of place and leave gaping gaps.

And if they do that then, its all in - all chips on the table, because of they lose that one. Dublin will swamp them and they don't even have the nous and experience of Tyrone or Mayo or Donegal to counter this Dublin team when it scents blood.

It had me confused watching them the first time I saw it - is that Howard? - what is he doing there? - what's Scully doing there? - Jayus they are not scoring much....
I doubt the Kerry sideline will be as thick as I was!

The_Honeybadger

Bonniedog wrote: »

Was in lower Hogan for the Kildare game and spent most of it watching Howard and Scully. They are the Ghosts in the Machine.

They do so much work it is a marvel just to watch them alone. To nullify their threat Kerry will have to set two of the half backs on them. Howard and Scully will drag them out of place and leave gaping gaps.

And if they do that then, its all in - all chips on the table, because of they lose that one. Dublin will swamp them and they don't even have the nous and experience of Tyrone or Mayo or Donegal to counter this Dublin team when it scents blood.

Kerry utterly dismantled Mayo and Tyrone (second half when it mattered) this year and drew with a much fancied Donegal and you think they lack nous? You are underestimating Kerry’s management. Like I said Kerry may well lose this one but it won’t be on the sideline.

Bonniedog

Was intriguing to watch them, and you don't see a lot of what they do, because often they are key to movements or nullifying movements that are not picked up. Scully really came into his own in third quarter against Mayo and could have had a goal and a point during the rout.

Reminds me of a story once about Hanahoe when he was told to drag centre half back out of position - wasn't Kerry, they'd never fall for it! - but at end after comfortable Dublin win Hanohoe's marker said "You didn't score today." To which Hanahoe pointed out that Dublin had won by 11 or 12 points with three goals coming straight down the middle while Tony and the half back were observing from near the sideline!

Must watch the first half of semi again to see how Mayo dealt with the terrible twins. You may be sure Keane has,

Bonniedog

Badger I was not being dismissive, but this Kerry defence hasn't faced a threat like Dublin. And furthermore, I don't see how Kerry have replaced the likes of the Ó Sés, O'Mahony, Griffin. But players play themselves into big roles on big days.

I'm sure they have the players and the intelligence on and off the pitch to come up with a plan. But haven't seen proof of that so far.

The_Honeybadger

Bonniedog wrote: »

Badger I was not being dismissive, but this Kerry defence hasn't faced a threat like Dublin. And furthermore, I don't see how Kerry have replaced the likes of the Ó Sés, O'Mahony, Griffin. But players play themselves into big roles on big days.

I'm sure they have the players and the intelligence on and off the pitch to come up with a plan. But haven't seen proof of that so far.

I understand the confidence from a Dublin POV and Kerry will need to defend better than they have at times this year. They have improved with each game but Dublin are better than what they have played.

If Kerry do somehow pull it off there will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces. I can’t ever remember so much gloating from a fan base before a game is even played (not specifically aimed at you).

Bonniedog

I'm certainly not gloating.

Confident, reasonably, Not 1/5 confident but 2/5 maybe :-)


Seriously, I've watched games since mid 70s. Kerry of Micko era were streets ahead of Dublin then. Never had any problem admitting that.

I think our team now is their equal. Sunday will tell a tale.

Won't be happy if we lose, but we're used to it. Those of us of "a certain age" at least!

RoyalCelt

Dubs who's team have only lost once in the last 8 seasons telling us they are used to losing. Lord have mercy we've reached new lows.

ProudDUB

What part of "those of us of a certain age" do you need explained to you?

Or the simple maths of Dublin only winning 1 All Ireland in nearly 30 years, between 1983 and 2011?

Never been great at d'aul sums, but even I get that one.

Prestonites

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dubs who's team have only lost once in the last 8 seasons telling us they are used to losing. Lord have mercy we've reached new lows.

Youre literally picking and choosing what you want from posts.

Why wasnt this being discussed in 2008 when tyrone absolutely battered us in the QF

Dr. Bre

Between 1996 and 2011 was completely painful. So much hope and a then a Tryone or Kerry would give us a hammering. I was there the day Meath put 5 goals past cluxton!

Prestonites

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Between 1996 and 2011 was completely painful. So much hope and a then a Tryone or Kerry would give us a hammering. I was there the day Meath put 5 goals past cluxton!

Ill tell you what there was no discussions of splitting the county then

Prestonites

Vaughan, cahill and Mossy no bleeding chanting from the bleachers about funding. Dublin stepped up in later years and now those cant accept the etter talent and coaching is in dublin. This is me signing out of this chat till the weekend.

bruschi

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Between 1996 and 2011 was completely painful. So much hope and a then a Tryone or Kerry would give us a hammering. I was there the day Meath put 5 goals past cluxton!

Dublin won 7 senior leinster titles in that period, 10 leinster club titles, 2 club all Ireland's, 5 minor leinster, 5 u21s leinster, 2 u21 all Ireland's. And thats in mens football only.

If that is completely painful, then I'd gladly take it!

moghrasa

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Kerry utterly dismantled Mayo and Tyrone (second half when it mattered) this year and drew with a much fancied Donegal and you think they lack nous? You are underestimating Kerry’s management. Like I said Kerry may well lose this one but it won’t be on the sideline.

To play devils advocate, surely it should be of equal concern that Tyrone's first half tactic of 'kick it to Cathal McShane and see what happens' seemed to provide the Kerry Management with a bit of a shock. Granted it was addressed in the second half, but you can't afford 5 dodgy minutes against Dublin let alone 35.

Also, to say Donegal were 'much fancied' makes it sound an awful lot like poor wee Kerry were going up to Croker to get beat. In reality it was predicted to be a tight match between the two, and as far as I remember a number of bookies had the handicap as Kerry -1.

Donegal were missing 3 of their starting 6 backs, and even if we had the 6 we aren't known for our defensive stability of late. Clifford, Sean O'Shea and the likes were expected to blow through our first choice of backs, let alone the one they faced on the day. The draw was a fair result between two teams that many saw as even before and after the game, I don't think Kerry's management necessarily deserve praise for drawing with Donegal. While it's certainly not a bad result, it was hardly the heist of the century.

The_Honeybadger

moghrasa wrote: »

To play devils advocate, surely it should be of equal concern that Tyrone's first half tactic of 'kick it to Cathal McShane and see what happens' seemed to provide the Kerry Management with a bit of a shock. Granted it was addressed in the second half, but you can't afford 5 dodgy minutes against Dublin let alone 35.

Also, to say Donegal were 'much fancied' makes it sound an awful lot like poor wee Kerry were going up to Croker to get beat. In reality it was predicted to be a tight match between the two, and as far as I remember a number of bookies had the handicap as Kerry -1.

Donegal were missing 3 of their starting 6 backs, and even if we had the 6 we aren't known for our defensive stability of late. Clifford, Sean O'Shea and the likes were expected to blow through our first choice of backs, let alone the one they faced on the day. The draw was a fair result between two teams that many saw as even before and after the game, I don't think Kerry's management necessarily deserve praise for drawing with Donegal. While it's certainly not a bad result, it was hardly the heist of the century.

Well all the talk on here was how Murphy, Mcbrearty and co were going to eat Kerry’s backline, they didn’t. I’d agree it was a fair result between two fairly even teams in the day. As for Donegal missing players it seemed to fly under the radar that Kerry were missing both of their first choice midfielders and P Crowley who was long term injured. Moran was the most influential player missing for either side that day IMO.

As for McShane in the semi Jason Foley marked him from behind and they seemed happy to avoid giving away goal chances, which they didn’t. I don’t think it was a shock at all tbh, and they tidied it up after half time. I don’t know what way we will set up Sunday, nothing would surprise me really.

Kerry have looked really vulnerable at times this year but can tighten up when needed by dropping men back and leaving their half back line in place and have actually looked very solid when they do this. They are not half as naive defensively as people are making out, any team would look vulnerable going man v man with McShane and Donnelly.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying we should be favourites Sunday. Kerry are massive outsiders and I understand that but surely we are allowed to have a small bit of hope going in to the game? It seems many hope we get a right hammering. I don’t think we will but it wouldn’t be a shock either I suppose.

Bridge93

Given the only people who have categorically said the game is a foregone conclusion and a hammering have been non dubs I think your frustration is misplaced. Dublin fans have been the ones saying Kerry have a chance and it’ll be close. Usually to the laughter of others

gormdubhgorm

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I understand the confidence from a Dublin POV and Kerry will need to defend better than they have at times this year. They have improved with each game but Dublin are better than what they have played.

If Kerry do somehow pull it off there will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces. I can’t ever remember so much gloating from a fan base before a game is even played (not specifically aimed at you).

Bonniedog wrote: »

Badger I was not being dismissive, but this Kerry defence hasn't faced a threat like Dublin. And furthermore, I don't see how Kerry have replaced the likes of the Ó Sés, O'Mahony, Griffin. But players play themselves into big roles on big days.

I'm sure they have the players and the intelligence on and off the pitch to come up with a plan. But haven't seen proof of that so far.

I think Kerry defended fairly well v Donegal even though the game was 90 mile an hour up and down the pitch.
Kerry funneled the players back centrally when they needed to and made the pitch narrow - need to the same thing again.
At the risk of sounding like Ger Canning the same 'intensity' is needed.

There were plenty of times the Dublin fanbase had overconfident - Donegal 92 AI final, Derry 93 AI semi-final, Mayo 06 semi final.
I am not failing into that trap - I could not see Dublin losing in 06.

The nearer this game is getting the more worried I am getting.
On the day this Kerry team can beat any team if they get the right start.
I am not forgetting that they beat Dublin in the league this year and beat Dublin in the league final two years ago.
It is all well and good saying that Kerry backline is dodgy and Kerry have not faced a team like Dublin in the championship so far.
But they have in the league and won.
Also it can be argued that Dublin backline have not faced a forward line of the quality of Kerry's in the championship.

In Dublin's super 8 group a supposedly weak Cork team exposed Dublin on numerous occasions, and should have got a couple of more goals.

Dublin conceded a goal against a Mayo team who are more lauded for thier defensive doggedness, than thier attack.

Also I am not forgetting the goal Dublin conceded to Galway in the 2018 AI SF - a launched ball fisted by Comer.

Slattsy

As a Dub I cant see anything other than a Kerry win tbh. I dont think I'll watch the match. I can understand why nobody in Dundalk wants a ticket.

Clifford to score 2-15, all from play, and with his weaker foot (does he even have one??), and he'll then get presented with the 'Greatest Player of All Time' award after the match.

Then he'll turn water into wine back in the hotel and walk on water at some point later that night after a few bulmers.

Fr Tod Umptious

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Well all the talk on here was how Murphy, Mcbrearty and co were going to eat Kerry’s backline, they didn’t. I’d agree it was a fair result between two fairly even teams in the day. As for Donegal missing players it seemed to fly under the radar that Kerry were missing both of their first choice midfielders and P Crowley who was long term injured. Moran was the most influential player missing for either side that day IMO.

As for McShane in the semi Jason Foley marked him from behind and they seemed happy to avoid giving away goal chances, which they didn’t. I don’t think it was a shock at all tbh, and they tidied it up after half time. I don’t know what way we will set up Sunday, nothing would surprise me really.

Kerry have looked really vulnerable at times this year but can tighten up when needed by dropping men back and leaving their half back line in place and have actually looked very solid when they do this. They are not half as naive defensively as people are making out, any team would look vulnerable going man v man with McShane and Donnelly.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying we should be favourites Sunday. Kerry are massive outsiders and I understand that but surely we are allowed to have a small bit of hope going in to the game? It seems many hope we get a right hammering. I don’t think we will but it wouldn’t be a shock either I suppose.

V Kerry the trio of Murphy, McBrearty and McHugh scored 1-7, 0-5 and 0-1 respectively.

V Mayo two weeks later they same trio scored 1-4, 0-2, and 0-0.

Relatively speaking Donegal ate that Kerry backline.

The_Honeybadger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

V Kerry the trio of Murphy, McBrearty and McHugh scored 1-7, 0-5 and 0-1 respectively.

V Mayo two weeks later they same trio scored 1-4, 0-2, and 0-0.

Relatively speaking Donegal ate that Kerry backline.

Most of that was dead balls. The Kerry full back line won their personal battles that day, Morley beat Mcbrearty and Tom O’Sullivan beat Brennan. Murphy and Mchugh were excellent from further out in a very open game.

V Mayo they missed a lot of opportunities that they were slotting over v Kerry for whatever reason. Murphy was missing frees in front of the posts even.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Prestonites wrote: »

Ill tell you what there was no discussions of splitting the county then

Yes there was. It was floated in 2002 or so.

RoyalCelt

bruschi wrote: »

Dublin won 7 senior leinster titles in that period, 10 leinster club titles, 2 club all Ireland's, 5 minor leinster, 5 u21s leinster, 2 u21 all Ireland's. And thats in mens football only.

If that is completely painful, then I'd gladly take it!

The sense of entitlement is hilarious.

Picking a period of time from 1983 to 2011 where the Dubs won 3 AI and many Leinsters and trying to get us to feel sorry for them. That averages more then 1 title per 10 years. It's better then most counties had.

tomwaits48

Prestonites wrote: »

Ill tell you what there was no discussions of splitting the county then

me too...in a weird way I prefer that era....some of my fondest memories even though we were crap....recall another filthy hammering by tyrone in 2008 i think.

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The sense of entitlement is hilarious.

Picking a period of time from 1983 to 2011 where the Dubs won 3 AI and many Leinsters and trying to get us to feel sorry for them. That averages more then 1 title per 10 years. It's better then most counties had.

That is well below what Dublin should have been getting though.
It was a poor return - massive underachievement.

Meath got four AI's in that period and nine leinsters in that period - it is all relative that is massive over achievement for Meath

When Kerry had thier 'famine' 86-97 was viewed as an eternity being without Sam. They expect to win 2-3 AI's a decade.
I can see this current Kerry team getting 3-5 AI's by the next decade and it will be viewed as 'sure that is what Kerry expects'

gormdubhgorm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Yes there was. It was floated in 2002 or so.

2002 the Strategic Review Committee put forward the idea.


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/tale-of-two-city-teams-dominates-gaa-review-1.1047385

Others thought the split was a good idea at underage level:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/schools-gaa-chiefs-support-controversial-dublin-split-26062472.html

This underage split was supported the following individuals -

Tom O'Donnell (from Kilshelan, Co. Tipperary) - Schools GAA Officer - Dublin and North Leinster

Gerry Grogan from (Caherciveen Co Kerry) who is 'the voice of Croke Park', National development officer and Dublin PRO for Cumann na mBunscol

Funny to see that fellas from Tipp and Kerry have such a say on GAA in Dublin!

---

Kerry have really infiltrated Dublin GAA - Grogan (Kerryman), Brogan's (Kerry mother) , Fenton (Kerry father).
Sure it is no wonder Dublin are improving with all that Kerry-ness around!

moghrasa

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Well all the talk on here was how Murphy, Mcbrearty and co were going to eat Kerry’s backline, they didn’t. I’d agree it was a fair result between two fairly even teams in the day. As for Donegal missing players it seemed to fly under the radar that Kerry were missing both of their first choice midfielders and P Crowley who was long term injured. Moran was the most influential player missing for either side that day IMO.

As for McShane in the semi Jason Foley marked him from behind and they seemed happy to avoid giving away goal chances, which they didn’t. I don’t think it was a shock at all tbh, and they tidied it up after half time. I don’t know what way we will set up Sunday, nothing would surprise me really.

Kerry have looked really vulnerable at times this year but can tighten up when needed by dropping men back and leaving their half back line in place and have actually looked very solid when they do this. They are not half as naive defensively as people are making out, any team would look vulnerable going man v man with McShane and Donnelly.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying we should be favourites Sunday. Kerry are massive outsiders and I understand that but surely we are allowed to have a small bit of hope going in to the game? It seems many hope we get a right hammering. I don’t think we will but it wouldn’t be a shock either I suppose.

For sure, most people didn't put much faith in Kerry's defence, but it wasn't one way traffic. One could say just as handily that Clifford, O Shea and O Brien were predicted to make mincemeat of the Donegal defence, Donegal's first test now after Ulster etc. The only thing predicted for the match by the majority of spectators was that it would be a high scoring and close match. 1-20 to 1-20 would be in line with that.

I agree Kerry's defence while far from perfect, get more flack than they should. For me the only questionable displays were against Cork in the Munster final - which can probably be explained off to Kerry knowing they'd win anyway so not really being too worried - and has since been vindicated by Cork's attacking performances against Dublin and Tyrone. The other concern would be the handling of Cathal McShane in that first half, which I hope ye learn from.

I also agree that it is ridiculous to rule Kerry out. I left a post in this thread about a week ago saying that I think Kerry will at least beat the handicap. I don't know where you've gotten this idea that many want you to get a hiding, most fellas I know (however reluctantly it may be) want a Kerry win, and I've not spoken to anyone outside of Dublin (or the odd Cork man!) who want ye to be hammered.

I think there is enough evidence Kerry could do damage to Dublin without absolving the team of any deficiencies they may have shown this far. I'd expect this to be much more like the 2017 final than the 2018 final, shall we say.

charlie14

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Well all the talk on here was how Murphy, Mcbrearty and co were going to eat Kerry’s backline, they didn’t. I’d agree it was a fair result between two fairly even teams in the day. As for Donegal missing players it seemed to fly under the radar that Kerry were missing both of their first choice midfielders and P Crowley who was long term injured. Moran was the most influential player missing for either side that day IMO.

As for McShane in the semi Jason Foley marked him from behind and they seemed happy to avoid giving away goal chances, which they didn’t. I don’t think it was a shock at all tbh, and they tidied it up after half time. I don’t know what way we will set up Sunday, nothing would surprise me really.

Kerry have looked really vulnerable at times this year but can tighten up when needed by dropping men back and leaving their half back line in place and have actually looked very solid when they do this. They are not half as naive defensively as people are making out, any team would look vulnerable going man v man with McShane and Donnelly.

I’m not in any way, shape or form saying we should be favourites Sunday. Kerry are massive outsiders and I understand that but surely we are allowed to have a small bit of hope going in to the game? It seems many hope we get a right hammering. I don’t think we will but it wouldn’t be a shock either I suppose.

For the Kerry v Donegal game the talk was as much Kerry making mincemeat off the Donegal defense as Donegal making mincemeat of Kerry`s. With a scoreline of 1-20 each it more or less panned out that way with both defenses looking at sea for a lot of the time. Granted Moran was a major loss to Kerry on the day, but Donegal lost their two starting midfielders early on, plus they were without their full back, McGee, and one of their corner backs, McGrath, on the day.
Kerry have looked better when they drop men back and leave their half back line in position, but for me their problem is, at least going by the Tyrone game and the amount of ball McShane won, they are pretty clueless on how to use a sweeper. Murphy on that days performance is not the answer and imho unless they sort that out, (Sherwood perhaps), then with the speed Dublin move the ball they could be in all sorts of trouble.
Don`t get me wrong, I am not one of those looking for Kerry to get a hammering.In fact for the good of the game and the chasing pack I hope Kerry win.The certainly have the forwards and midfield to do serious damage to any team and if they can sort out the sweeper at the back, as going one on one with Dublin`s forwards would be suicide, I give them every chance of pulling it off.

The_Honeybadger

charlie14 wrote: »

For the Kerry v Donegal game the talk was as much Kerry making mincemeat off the Donegal defense as Donegal making mincemeat of Kerry`s. With a scoreline of 1-20 each it more or less panned out that way with both defenses looking at sea for a lot of the time. Granted Moran was a major loss to Kerry on the day, but Donegal lost their two starting midfielders early on, plus they were without their full back, McGee, and one of their corner backs, McGrath, on the day.
Kerry have looked better when they drop men back and leave their half back line in position, but for me their problem is, at least going by the Tyrone game and the amount of ball McShane won, they are pretty clueless on how to use a sweeper. Murphy on that days performance is not the answer and imho unless they sort that out, (Sherwood perhaps), then with the speed Dublin move the ball they could be in all sorts of trouble.
Don`t get me wrong, I am not one of those looking for Kerry to get a hammering.In fact for the good of the game and the chasing pack I hope Kerry win.The certainly have the forwards and midfield to do serious damage to any team and if they can sort out the sweeper at the back, as going one on one with Dublin`s forwards would be suicide, I give them every chance of pulling it off.

I think TSG were off on their analysis of Kerry’s sweeper v Tyrone. They weren’t playing one. They left Murphy in position at CB to stop runners coming through after McHugh ran riot in the Super 8 game. That left too much space in front of McShane and Donnelly and Tyrone were able to kick lovely 70/30 ball in to them. Foley hadn’t a hope really but did his best. They sorted it out in the second half by putting much better pressure on further up the field, Tyrone just couldn’t get the ball away the way they were doing earlier.

Someone mentioned the Cork game as well where Kerry really appeared to struggle at the back, yet the moment Paul Geaney was sent off they dropped men back and looked much more solid, they never looked in any danger after that even when down a man and they went on to close it out comfortably enough in the end.

I don’t know what they will do Sunday as it has changed from game to game and even half to half so far.

dog_pig

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Most of that was dead balls. The Kerry full back line won their personal battles that day, Morley beat Mcbrearty and Tom O’Sullivan beat Brennan. Murphy and Mchugh were excellent from further out in a very open game.

V Mayo they missed a lot of opportunities that they were slotting over v Kerry for whatever reason. Murphy was missing frees in front of the posts even.

7 of those 14 points were from play, so it's an even distribution. The ball was also in the Kerry net twice from play outside of the penalty. I don't agree that Morley beat McBrearty, unless you include the last 15 minutes where McBrearty played out the the game injured.

The_Honeybadger

dog_pig wrote: »

7 of those 14 points were from play, so it's an even distribution. The ball was also in the Kerry net twice from play outside of the penalty. I don't agree that Morley beat McBrearty, unless you include the last 15 minutes where McBrearty played out the the game injured.

One of those times the ball was in the net was the same incident as the penalty.

Mcbrearty got two points from play, nobody is going to hold him scoreless but he wasn’t that influential over the course of the game. Morley would have been very satisfied with his days work there.

Tom O’Sullivan also wrapped up Brennan completely, who was in very good form up to that. I thought our backs did very well overall that day.

Bonniedog

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The sense of entitlement is hilarious.

Picking a period of time from 1983 to 2011 where the Dubs won 3 AI and many Leinsters and trying to get us to feel sorry for them. That averages more then 1 title per 10 years. It's better then most counties had.

You have a major sense of humour deficit.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is well below what Dublin should have been getting though.
It was a poor return - massive underachievement.

Meath got four AI's in that period and nine leinsters in that period - it is all relative that is massive over achievement for Meath

When Kerry had thier 'famine' 86-97 was viewed as an eternity being without Sam. They expect to win 2-3 AI's a decade.
I can see this current Kerry team getting 3-5 AI's by the next decade and it will be viewed as 'sure that is what Kerry expects'

No its not. Why do you Dubs keep persisting with this nonsense?

Look at the history books:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_finals

Before 2011, Dublin had won 22 All Irelands. They won 14 of those before 1924!

Between 1924 and 2011, they won 8, which averages at 1 per decade.

In the 1980s and 90s, they also won 1 per decade, exactly the same ratio as the previous 60 years. So they weren't underperforming, they were performing exactly as they were going back to 1924.

After the rules of residency were tightened up in the early 1920s, Dublin's dominance came to an end. From then on the gaps between their AI successes were 19 years (1942), 16 years (1958), 5 years (1963), 11 years (1974) a gap of 6 years from '77 to '83, then 12 years to 95 and 16 years to 2011.

There have often been long gaps between Dublin successes, nothing new in that.

charlie14

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I think TSG were off on their analysis of Kerry’s sweeper v Tyrone. They weren’t playing one. They left Murphy in position at CB to stop runners coming through after McHugh ran riot in the Super 8 game. That left too much space in front of McShane and Donnelly and Tyrone were able to kick lovely 70/30 ball in to them. Foley hadn’t a hope really but did his best. They sorted it out in the second half by putting much better pressure on further up the field, Tyrone just couldn’t get the ball away the way they were doing earlier.

Someone mentioned the Cork game as well where Kerry really appeared to struggle at the back, yet the moment Paul Geaney was sent off they dropped men back and looked much more solid, they never looked in any danger after that even when down a man and they went on to close it out comfortably enough in the end.

I don’t know what they will do Sunday as it has changed from game to game and even half to half so far.

Perhaps, but I`m not really sure that is what Kerry were trying to do with Murphy in that first half. The danger at that stage was not the center but the possibility of McShane running riot.
It was obvious which of Tyrone`s only two game plans they were going with. Long ball into McShane, which he was winning easily.Meanwhile Murphy was in no mans lands and left that way until the second half.
I could not understand watching how the Kerry management, if you are correct, did not see the the danger that McShane was creating and tell Murphy to just sweep in front of him as Donegal did in the Ulster semi final and totally negate his influence and Tyrone`s game plan.
It is not something the Dublin management will have missed and with a much more lethal forward line than Tyrone imho will look to exploit if Kerry do not use a sweeper.
With the speed Dublin transition, the ball will have traveled a lot faster than Kerry getting men back and if they have one on ones to aim at in their full forward line, then I`m afraid Kerry could be in serious trouble in a short space of time.
Hope I am wrong, but for what my tuppence halfpenny is worth. Kerry will need to employ a sweeper who knows what he is doing if they are going to have a chance.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

No its not. Why do you Dubs keep persisting with this nonsense?

Look at the history books:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_finals

Before 2011, Dublin had won 22 All Irelands. They won 14 of those before 1924!

Between 1924 and 2011, they won 8, which averages at 1 per decade.

In the 1980s and 90s, they also won 1 per decade, exactly the same ratio as the previous 60 years. So they weren't underperforming, they were performing exactly as they had going back to 1924.

After the rules of residency were tightened up in the early 1920s, Dublin's dominance came to an end. From then on the gaps between their AI successes were 19 years (1942), 16 years (1958), 5 years (1963), 11 years (1974) a gap of 6 years from '77 to '83, then 12 years to 95 and 16 years to 2011.

There have often been long gaps between Dublin successes, nothing new in that.

So you are telling me that before Kevin Heffernan took the reins there was not a complete apathy towards the Dublin team?
That level of apathy fed into the underachievement
The Dublin public did not relate to the team in anyway - there were loads of culchies in it.
Then between 1983 and 2011 Dublin should definitely had won more AI's.
The team of the 90's in particular definitely under-achieved given the players they had.
They were poorly managed, and not focused.
It does not make a difference what players you have if the focus/mental strength is not there.
No matter how you look at it Dublin underachieved from 1983 - 2011.
I cannot speak with complete authority about the other decades prior because I was not around to see it.
But I know enough to know that the club was king in Dublin - Vinnies ruled the roost.

As Mickey Whelan said:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/decades-of-the-dubs/when-i-started-playing-dublin-guys-didnt-count-in-the-gaa-it-was-a-country-game-38423714.html

"Dublin guys? We didn't count in the GAA.

It was a country game really, until Vincent's started to dominate football and hurling in the county."

--

If that is not underachievement/disorganisation/apathy I don't know what is.

Should Kerry win on Sunday it will be an over achievement for Kerry as they are the underdogs - many are not giving Kerry much of a hope.

Everything has it's context.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

No its not. Why do you Dubs keep persisting with this nonsense?

Look at the history books:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_finals

Before 2011, Dublin had won 22 All Irelands. They won 14 of those before 1924!

Between 1924 and 2011, they won 8, which averages at 1 per decade.

In the 1980s and 90s, they also won 1 per decade, exactly the same ratio as the previous 60 years. So they weren't underperforming, they were performing exactly as they had going back to 1924.

After the rules of residency were tightened up in the early 1920s, Dublin's dominance came to an end. From then on the gaps between their AI successes were 19 years (1942), 16 years (1958), 5 years (1963), 11 years (1974) a gap of 6 years from '77 to '83, then 12 years to 95 and 16 years to 2011.

There have often been long gaps between Dublin successes, nothing new in that.

Yawn, so they have been underachieving for a very long time. Great, that will mean people won't mind them overachieving for a very long time.

Truth is, with the population of Dublin, they should be winning 2-4 All-Irelands every decade. They got that right at the start of this decade, when Gilroy got them playing to potential. However, the influx of players in 2013 and 2015 from the two U-21 teams took them to a new level. Together with the best of the oldies - Cluxton being the most outstanding - they have taken football to a new level. All down to great players and a great manager.

Dublin will revert to the norm in the next few years. If they win on Sunday, it will be very difficult to see them winning next year, as some of them are bound to wonder what is left to achieve. That will see a drop in performance, and they should be caught then. Can they come back quickly after that? Who knows.

In contrast, should they lose on Sunday, the drive to show they are the best will actually be reinforced by the gloating from the sidelines and I would expect them to come back very strongly next year.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Yawn, so they have been underachieving for a very long time. Great, that will mean people won't mind them overachieving for a very long time.

Truth is, with the population of Dublin, they should be winning 2-4 All-Irelands every decade. They got that right at the start of this decade, when Gilroy got them playing to potential. However, the influx of players in 2013 and 2015 from the two U-21 teams took them to a new level. Together with the best of the oldies - Cluxton being the most outstanding - they have taken football to a new level. All down to great players and a great manager.

Dublin will revert to the norm in the next few years. If they win on Sunday, it will be very difficult to see them winning next year, as some of them are bound to wonder what is left to achieve. That will see a drop in performance, and they should be caught then. Can they come back quickly after that? Who knows.

In contrast, should they lose on Sunday, the drive to show they are the best will actually be reinforced by the gloating from the sidelines and I would expect them to come back very strongly next year.

This is a discussion for the other thread. But in summary saying Dublin should be winning 2-4 AIs per decade based on population is nonsense and clear evidence of the Dublin inclination towards rigging gaelic football in their favour when they couldn't win it fairly.

Lets continue this on the other thread.