Greta and the aristocrat sail the high seas to save the planet.

Dohnjoe

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Had to google her, not something I’d have agreed with either tbh because I do think it’s adults responsibility to actually think of the children and I’ve never seen anything wrong in saying that.

I understand of course that just because I don’t get the message doesn’t mean plenty more people haven’t gotten the message, but I’d prefer if it was adults delivering that message on their children’s behalf rather than adults using children to do what should be their responsibility.

In this case I don’t see it the same way you do - I don’t think the adults are as clueless as they appear to be in permitting a child to put themselves at risk. I think the adults are thinking of the bigger picture from their own perspective in the very same way as you’re doing which appears to make a child making sacrifices on behalf of adults somehow acceptable. I just don’t think it is acceptable and there is no justification for allowing a child to put themselves at risk. It doesn’t matter that they want to.

Teenagers can be pretty strong willed and make life-choices. Sometimes their parents, despite their best intentions, cannot change those choices, and end up having to support them (rather than risk alienating) Greta will technically be an adult anyway in 2 years.

ILoveYourVibes

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Teenagers can be pretty strong willed and make life-choices. Sometimes their parents, despite their best intentions, cannot change those choices, and end up having to support them (rather than risk alienating) Greta will technically be an adult anyway in 2 years.

My thoughts exactly.

One eyed Jack

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Teenagers can be pretty strong willed and make life-choices. Sometimes their parents, despite their best intentions, cannot change those choices, and end up having to support them (rather than risk alienating) Greta will technically be an adult anyway in 2 years.

I’d sooner risk alienating my child than allowing them to put themselves at risk. I get the “I’m fourteeeeeen” argument from my child all the time as if that’s supposed to mean something. When he’s 18, then as I said earlier in the thread, I’ll be only too happy for him to piss off and do what he likes, because then he’s an adult. Until then, he’s still a child and is my responsibility and I consider myself responsible for his welfare.

There are good reasons even in law we do not permit children to do things that adults do, generally for their own protection until they reach a point where they are considered mature enough to do those things and have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. That’s why I’m suggesting it should be the adults leading the campaign on behalf of their children, rather than using their children as poster children for their campaign.

ILoveYourVibes

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’d sooner risk alienating my child than allowing them to put themselves at risk. I get the “I’m fourteeeeeen” argument from my child all the time as if that’s supposed to mean something. When he’s 18, then as I said earlier in the thread, I’ll be only too happy for him to piss off and do what he likes, because then he’s an adult. Until then, he’s still a child and is my responsibility and I consider myself responsible for his welfare.

There are good reasons even in law we do not permit children to do things that adults do, generally for their own protection until they reach a point where they are considered mature enough to do those things and have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. That’s why I’m suggesting it should be the adults leading the campaign on behalf of their children, rather than using their children as poster children for their campaign.

True but having said all of that she will probably be fine.

Dohnjoe

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’d sooner risk alienating my child than allowing them to put themselves at risk. I get the “I’m fourteeeeeen” argument from my child all the time as if that’s supposed to mean something. When he’s 18, then as I said earlier in the thread, I’ll be only too happy for him to piss off and do what he likes, because then he’s an adult. Until then, he’s still a child and is my responsibility and I consider myself responsible for his welfare.

There are good reasons even in law we do not permit children to do things that adults do, generally for their own protection until they reach a point where they are considered mature enough to do those things and have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. That’s why I’m suggesting it should be the adults leading the campaign on behalf of their children, rather than using their children as poster children for their campaign.

Cool, but this isn't a teenager whining for an Xbox for Christmas

Some kids mature a hell of a lot faster than others. The whole "aaand now you're 18, now it's okay to become a global climate activist, but not a second before" is a bit subjective.

To get back to planet earth, I really don't think you have to worry about Greta inspiring millions of teenagers to suddenly start crossing the Atlantic in sailboats, if that's the case, you should be far more worried about what they are watching on Youtube.

One eyed Jack

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Cool, but this isn't a teenager whining for an Xbox for Christmas

Some kids mature a hell of a lot faster than others. The whole "aaand now you're 18, now it's okay to become a global climate activist, but not a second before" is a bit subjective.

To get back to planet earth, I really don't think you have to worry about Greta inspiring millions of teenagers to suddenly start crossing the Atlantic in sailboats, if that's the case, you should be far more worried about what they are watching on Youtube.

I do that too, just it hasn’t come up in this particular thread is all.

FWIW it’s a bit strange to say that I don’t have to worry about Greta inspiring millions of children, when isn’t that the whole justification her supporters are using in the first place? Claims that she has inspired all these children to care about climate change and all all the rest of it? But when it comes to inspiring children to think that putting themselves at risk makes adults bend to their will - “Oh no, she’s not doing that”

It isn’t all that different from the ideas a child gets when they don’t get an Xbox for Christmas, and when the novelty wears off they’ll continue not giving a shiny shìte about climate change while unwrapping their new games consoles and showing them off on social media.

Tell me how

One eyed Jack wrote: »

FWIW it’s a bit strange to say that I don’t have to worry about Greta inspiring millions of children, when isn’t that the whole justification her supporters are using in the first place? Claims that she has inspired all these children to care about climate change and all all the rest of it? But when it comes to inspiring children to think that putting themselves at risk makes adults bend to their will - “Oh no, she’s not doing that”

Any children who are invited by the owner of a yacht who has raced around the world on it and which will be captained by and experienced sailor, and whose parents have given them permission, and will accompany them, to travel to America to speak to the UN, should most definitely use Greta's example to at least consider that opportunity.

Does that mean a 16 year old will hijack a punt in Dunlaoighre and head for Cape Cod?
I'm willing to bet not.

To suggest kids can't understand the context of what she's doing frankly makes it sound like you think they are incapable of any rational thought.

recedite

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am a lot more confident though knowing her Dad is with her.

Why, is he a good swimmer?

Dohnjoe

One eyed Jack wrote: »

FWIW it’s a bit strange to say that I don’t have to worry about Greta inspiring millions of children, when isn’t that the whole justification her supporters are using in the first place? Claims that she has inspired all these children to care about climate change and all all the rest of it? But when it comes to inspiring children to think that putting themselves at risk makes adults bend to their will - “Oh no, she’s not doing that”

You're right back to "won't someone think of the kids" hysteria again. She's an inspiration to many regarding climate change. Will thousands of kids start pressuring their parents to suddenly take risky modes of travel to get to climate conferences? well we'll see. Somehow I think not.

One eyed Jack

Tell me how wrote: »

Any children who are invited by the owner of a yacht who has raced around the world on it and which will be captained by and experienced sailor, and whose parents have given them permission, and will accompany them, to travel to America to speak to the UN, should most definitely use Greta's example to at least consider that opportunity.

Does that mean a 16 year old will hijack a punt in Dunlaoighre and head for Cape Cod?
I'm willing to bet not.

To suggest kids can't understand the context of what she's doing frankly makes it sound like you think they are incapable of any rational thought.

You’re a rational adult and yet you think children should consider Greta’s example if they are offered the opportunity, and as Donjoe observed sometimes parents can’t just say no to their children for fear of alienating them, and because Greta is an average child of that age who is doing what she’s doing... all things considered I think it’s entirely justified to argue that children are incapable of any rational thought.

That’s why we hope they are in the care of adults who are capable of rational thought, for those children’s protection. Does taking a child across the Atlantic in a yacht seem like a rational thought to you? Does foisting a child into the media spotlight seem like a rational thought to you? I beg to differ on both counts, and I don’t know too many people who do think any of this is a good idea. Like myself they’re wondering what are the adults involved thinking?

Frankly I think it’s stupid risking a child’s life like that when it would make more sense to allow the child to grow up first and then make decisions for themselves when they’re an adult. They just won’t look as cute on the campaign material so won’t make as much of an impact is all.

One eyed Jack

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You're right back to "won't someone think of the kids" hysteria again. She's an inspiration to many regarding climate change. Will thousands of kids start pressuring their parents to suddenly take risky modes of travel to get to climate conferences? well we'll see. Somehow I think not.

As opposed to hysteria about climate change?

Ok then.

biko

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Blame the adults its not Greta's fault.

I don't think anyone is blaming Greta.
It's not like a 16 year old could get this far without a big adult entourage.

I posted about this months ago

biko wrote: »

Example how PR agencies are helping drive PC and profit from it.
Climate change kid Greta Thunberg is helped by more than one person connected to PR agencies
First Ingemar Rentzhog https://www.svd.se/english-version-swedish-start-up-used-greta-thunberg-to-bring-in-millions
Then Helena Iles, owner of "Iles PR Agency" (nothing in English yet)

More
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6946815/Whos-REALLY-16-year-old-Greta-Thunberg.html

ILoveYourVibes

Since when do activists need pr companies anyway?

One eyed Jack

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Since when do activists need pr companies anyway?

Since PR companies discovered there was serious money to be made in environmental causes


EDIT: An inconvenient truth: 'Climate change industry' now a $1.5 trillion global business

“The $1.5 trillion global ‘climate change industry’ grew at between 17 and 24 percent annually from 2005-2008, slowing to between 4 and 6 percent following the recession with the exception of 2011’s inexplicable 15 percent growth, according to Climate Change Business Journal,” he writes.

“The San Diego, Calif.-based publication includes within that industry nine segments and 38 sub-segments. This encompasses sectors like renewables, green building and hybrid vehicles.

And the talkers, creatives and handlers too.

“That also includes the climate change consulting market, which a recent report by the journal estimates at $1.9 billion worldwide and $890 million in the U.S.,” Mr. Jergler says.


I had no idea it was worth quite that much :eek:

ILoveYourVibes

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Since PR companies discovered there was serious money to be made in environmental causes


EDIT: An inconvenient truth: 'Climate change industry' now a $1.5 trillion global business

“The $1.5 trillion global ‘climate change industry’ grew at between 17 and 24 percent annually from 2005-2008, slowing to between 4 and 6 percent following the recession with the exception of 2011’s inexplicable 15 percent growth, according to Climate Change Business Journal,” he writes.

“The San Diego, Calif.-based publication includes within that industry nine segments and 38 sub-segments. This encompasses sectors like renewables, green building and hybrid vehicles.

And the talkers, creatives and handlers too.

“That also includes the climate change consulting market, which a recent report by the journal estimates at $1.9 billion worldwide and $890 million in the U.S.,” Mr. Jergler says.


I had no idea it was worth quite that much :eek:

Makes sense.

Tell me how

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re a rational adult and yet you think children should consider Greta’s example if they are offered the opportunity, and as Donjoe observed sometimes parents can’t just say no to their children for fear of alienating them, and because Greta is an average child of that age who is doing what she’s doing... all things considered I think it’s entirely justified to argue that children are incapable of any rational thought.

That’s why we hope they are in the care of adults who are capable of rational thought, for those children’s protection. Does taking a child across the Atlantic in a yacht seem like a rational thought to you? Does foisting a child into the media spotlight seem like a rational thought to you? I beg to differ on both counts, and I don’t know too many people who do think any of this is a good idea. Like myself they’re wondering what are the adults involved thinking?

Frankly I think it’s stupid risking a child’s life like that when it would make more sense to allow the child to grow up first and then make decisions for themselves when they’re an adult. They just won’t look as cute on the campaign material so won’t make as much of an impact is all.

We disagree.

This has not happened as hoc, overnight.

The idea 16 year olds are not capable of rational thought is insulting to them, as a demographic.

(I'm not suggesting they are fully mature but to suggest that they are all as flighty as to ignore all the other elements which led to Greta getting on the boat is not the case (not withstanding Gretas parents still authorised it))

SafeSurfer

gozunda wrote: »

On panic:
Seems to be one of her standard lines in a bunch of videos on her speeches

Here's some examples ...


And



Panic usually involves running around headless hence the chicken analogy .

Also this on cliff edge thinking:

Ms Thunberg


This is what one of the scientists responsible for the IPCC report said.



...

Yes I think this strange too. Her message is she wants Pluto panic but as adults we know that good decisions are rarely taken when we panic compared to when we address problems coolly, methodically and rationally.

One eyed Jack

Tell me how wrote: »

We disagree.

This has not happened as hoc, overnight.

The idea 16 year olds are not capable of rational thought is insulting to them, as a demographic.

(I'm not suggesting they are fully mature but to suggest that they are all as flighty as to ignore all the other elements which led to Greta getting on the boat is not the case (not withstanding Gretas parents still authorised it))

Well to be fair I mean that generally speaking, children are irrational, they simply don’t have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions in the same way that adults do. I don’t think it’s insulting to say that, it’s simply an acknowledgement of the differences in children and adults and why adults are held responsible for children’s welfare.

For example apparently thousands of children have followed Greta’s example already in organising and implementing school strikes. Eventually people are going to get tired of it when it’s no longer a novelty or generating headlines.

It hasn’t happened overnight and I don’t expect it will disappear overnight either, it’ll just fade out until the next cause to get behind comes along that we can get the kids involved in, because they love it, makes them feel like they’re a part of something bigger than themselves, like they’re making a huge impact on society and creating social change. I totally get all that.

It is of course a well documented among young people that they are inherently self-centred and immature, and that they will behave irrationally and engage in attention-seeking behaviours. That’s what makes them such great activists - they can be mobilised quickly and easily and don’t fully understand the consequences of their actions. That has both positive and negative effects for children as a demographic, especially when it comes to their interactions on social media where they just want to fit in with their peers and be noticed.

I think the adults in this case have taken advantage of a child to promote their own agenda, because nothing is more chilling than a child who speaks like an adult, especially when they’re accusing adults of having stolen their future and humanity is doomed and all the negative messages which are being fed to them by adults who are preying on their uncertainty to promote what is really those adults insecurities.

hetuzozaho

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It hasn’t happened overnight and I don’t expect it will disappear overnight either, it’ll just fade out until the next cause to get behind comes along that we can get the kids involved in, because they love it, makes them feel like they’re a part of something bigger than themselves, like they’re making a huge impact on society and creating social change. I totally get all that.

I think you're too hung up on her age. She is on the way to the UN climate talks.
In 17 months (?) she'll be 18. Will your opinion of what she is doing just change over night?

SafeSurfer

hetuzozaho wrote: »

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It hasn’t happened overnight and I don’t expect it will disappear overnight either, it’ll just fade out until the next cause to get behind comes along that we can get the kids involved in, because they love it, makes them feel like they’re a part of something bigger than themselves, like they’re making a huge impact on society and creating social change. I totally get all that.

I think you're too hung up on her age. She is on the way to the UN climate talks.
In 17 months (?) she'll be 18. Will your opinion of what she is doing just change over night?

Like the way society decides that 16.5 year olds are not responsible enough to drive cars but 6 months later they are?

hetuzozaho

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Like the way society decides that 16.5 year olds are not responsible enough to drive cars but 6 months later they are?

I mean we have to draw the line somewhere etc. But people discrediting what she is doing and calling it childish just doesn't seem to stack up with what she is doing, from what I've read. She's not playing UN down the playground.

I'm no expert on climate change etc and and am awful at being nicer to the planet but I really don't get the backlash at Greta.

One eyed Jack

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I think you're too hung up on her age. She is on the way to the UN climate talks.
In 17 months (?) she'll be 18. Will your opinion of what she is doing just change over night?

How am I hung up on her age when the fact she is a child is the reason why she was chosen in the first place by adults to promote their cause?

My opinion of what she is doing won’t change overnight, I’ll still think what she’s doing is stupid and I’ll still think the same as I do of the adults who are taking advantage of her to promote their own cause.

hetuzozaho

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My opinion of what she is doing won’t change overnight, I’ll still think what she’s doing is stupid

Is it that you think the UN climate change summit is stupid? Raising awareness about climate change is stupid?

Royale with Cheese

I had no strong opinion of her before this but agreed with her message, I rolled my eyes when I read about this stunt though. You want to make a difference and set an example that other people can actually follow? Don't fúcking go to New York. Zero emissions in avoiding unnecessary transatlantic trips. What exactly is she going to say there that couldn't have been done via Skype?

hetuzozaho

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I had no strong opinion of her before this but agreed with her message, I rolled my eyes when I read about this stunt though. You want to make a difference and set an example that other people can actually follow? Don't fúcking go to New York. Zero emissions in avoiding unnecessary transatlantic trips. What exactly is she going to say there that couldn't have been done via Skype?

It's a common way to raise awareness though is it not? People do cycles etc I didn't think anything of it when I heard it.
Doing something like this gets it media coverage and a thread on boards that your Skype idea would not I guess. Not sure what the Skype idea is though to be fair.

One eyed Jack

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I mean we have to draw the line somewhere etc. But people discrediting what she is doing and calling it childish just doesn't seem to stack up with what she is doing, from what I've read. She's not playing UN down the playground.

That’s pretty much what she is doing -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzH1OuqvaAg

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I'm no expert on climate change etc and and am awful at being nicer to the planet but I really don't get the backlash at Greta.

It’s not really a backlash at Greta herself, it’s a backlash against a campaign that’s using a child to promote their political, social, environmental and economic beliefs.

Pa ElGrande

Dohnjoe wrote: »

If she travels on a plane certain types will claim she's a hypocrite, if she travels by sail-boat, it's ludicrous. Again demonstrating the undercurrent to this whole thread.

It is all a virtue signalling exercise, but it has no discernible virtue to it whatsoever. It shows them all up for the complete hypocrites they are in reality.

For the assortment behind the Green blob she is the ideal useful idiot since there will be no hard questions because no interviewer will want to risk looking like a bully by causing an autistic young adult to have a meltdown.

Her guardians might want to reflect that there are people who don't know about their daughters condition and without their protective bubble some people may well be inclined to take it to her directly rather that the people who use her for their own ends.


'F**k you Greta' bumper stickers appear on German roads, taking aim at youth climate activist

MarquisDeSad

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I mean we have to draw the line somewhere etc. But people discrediting what she is doing and calling it childish just doesn't seem to stack up with what she is doing, from what I've read. She's not playing UN down the playground.

I'm no expert on climate change etc and and am awful at being nicer to the planet but I really don't get the backlash at Greta.

Industries don't want to change. Then there's climate change denial.

MarquisDeSad

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

It is all a virtue signalling exercise, but it has no discernible virtue to it whatsoever. It shows them all up for the complete hypocrites they are in reality.

For the assortment behind the Green blob she is the ideal useful idiot since there will be no hard questions because no interviewer will want to risk looking like a bully by causing an autistic young adult to have a meltdown.

Her guardians might want to reflect that there are people who don't know about their daughters condition and without their protective bubble some people may well be inclined to take it to her directly rather that the people who use her for their own ends.


'F**k you Greta' bumper stickers appear on German roads, taking aim at youth climate activist

Russia today. Quality stuff. Also considering you are a conspiracy theorist. Wouldn't that make you a useful idiot for climate change denial and other propaganda?.

ILoveYourVibes

It would be useful to change the language. No one cares if the planet dies. Its the fact that us humans live on it that makes it matter.

Trying to make life safer for people would be a better way to put it.