Greta and the aristocrat sail the high seas to save the planet.

Wibbs

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Loss of habitat for animals but increase in habitat for humans. Does the new green deal address population control?
I didn’t see any placards at the marches yesterday calling for fewer people please.

Indeed, the current very pervasive mantra in the west from business and politics is we must have more people and we don't have enough we must then import people from elsewhere. Instead of seeing a population levelling out or even declining slightly as a good thing, it is seen as some sort of emergency. Even here in Ireland where we have one of the highest birth rates in Europe we're getting fed this mantra from the great and the good(tm).

BarryD2

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We are destroying everything. Look at loss of natural habitat around the world and the pollution in rivers and oceans, including our own back yard.

I'm not sure that's entirely true in the case of Ireland anyway. Notwithstanding fly tipping of rubbish, rural Ireland is cleaner now I think than say 20-30 years ago. Farms have tidied up a lot, you don't see nearly as much random plastic like silage wrap stuck in the ditches etc. This is part due to general education but also efforts like tidy towns, green miles, farm subsidies connected to management, recycling of silage wrap etc. I think waterways too are on the whole cleaner, more care taken with slurry spreading and run off. We've still some towns pumping sewage into the sea, but many of these now have treatment plants and so on. Still too many sprays and artificial fertiliser applied. So things have improved in areas like this. We drive more, heat our houses to higher temperatures and so on.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

And yes some kind of subsidies should be given to people like you to encourage this kind of thing.

LOL, won't be holding my breath!

Thelonious Monk

Less people and population control means slowing down the economy which i am all for but it would probably lead to having less stuff so you wouldnt be happy with that either would you?

SafeSurfer

Wibbs wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Loss of habitat for animals but increase in habitat for humans. Does the new green deal address population control?
I didn’t see any placards at the marches yesterday calling for fewer people please.

Indeed, the current very pervasive mantra in the west from business and politics is we must have more people and we don't have enough we must then import people from elsewhere. Instead of seeing a population levelling out or even declining slightly as a good thing, it is seen as some sort of emergency. Even here in Ireland where we have one of the highest birth rates in Europe we're getting fed this mantra from the great and the good(tm).

I wonder is there any derogation on emissions targets for countries who accept large numbers of refugees. It would seem unfair to penalise an altruistic country.

Rockbeast2

Environment and climate are different things.

I believe we must treat our environment better.

I don't believe we can change the climate.

Carbon Tax is a scam to pay for the influx of people into the Northern Hemisphere in order to keep the growth of share prices going.

Wanderer78

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Environment and climate are different things.

I believe we must treat our environment better.

I don't believe we can change the climate.

Carbon Tax is a scam to pay for the influx of people into the Northern Hemisphere in order to keep the growth of share prices going.

largely due to polices that inflate asset prices such as qe

MrMusician18

Tell me how wrote: »

I gave you one example around car use last night that helps the situation and doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in quality of life.

Or how about, we ban disposable coffee cups, that'll help the environment and people can use reusable ones.

Or how about if manufacturers were obliged to make devices which could be repaired. Less would be unnecessarily discarded meaning less new ones having to be produced.

All good ideas, but are tinkering at the edges really.

Carbon is a big problem, and the problem areas are electricity generation, agriculture and transport.

Renewable electricity generation is still more expensive than fossil thermal.
There are no genuine technical solutions that are near cost effective to decarbonise agriculture
And transport - nothing really happening in aviation or road haulage. Can see the electrification of the private fleet, but that just shifts the problem. Irish population is too dispersed for public transport to be efficient.

A big tax on carbon or carbon rationing would force change, but since we cannot magic equivalent low carbon technical solutions out of thin air these would inevitably make the country poorer.

SafeSurfer

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Less people and population control means slowing down the economy which i am all for but it would probably lead to having less stuff so you wouldnt be happy with that either would you?

When growing up in quite a big family, having less people around meant more for those left.

So why would World resources divided among free people mean less for everyone.

BarryD2

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Less people and population control means slowing down the economy which i am all for but it would probably lead to having less stuff so you wouldnt be happy with that either would you?

Personally, I'd be more in favour of quality rather than quantity. But so many now, including many of the young climate protesters, want a bit of everything going and not next week but now.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I wonder is there any derogation on emissions targets for countries who accept large numbers of refugees. It would seem unfair to penalise an altruistic country.

The whole issue is full of paradoxes isn't it. It'd be wonderful if everything was black & white like young Greta would have it. But real life & society is much messier. We can all do & consume less personally but the fecker down the road who doesn't give a s**t can carry on normally and just laugh.

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Environment and climate are different things.

I believe we must treat our environment better.

I don't believe we can change the climate.

Indeed, climate has been changing since time dot. I suppose the issue is the pace of change and whether earth and society can adapt as quickly as before. Part of the reason we might see more immigration from other parts of the world is when their lands get less habitable. But humans have always done this too over longer periods of time.

Rockbeast2

QE?

20 BILLION a week in EU now, is it?

Keep an eye on a certain bank. 77 TRILLION in the red, is it? That's why it is imperative that the Brits can't get divorced.

Not too long ago, I was the most slightly-to-the-left-of - center person you could meet.

Time changes everyone :-(

This new "EU" is an attempt at a 4th Reich IMO.

*SPOILER ALERT*

It will fail. Again.

Jimmy Garlic

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We are destroying everything. Look at loss of natural habitat around the world and the pollution in rivers and oceans, including our own back yard.

There will be more real environmental issues as punitive taxation bites deeper. Why pay for rubbish collection when it can be dumped in a ditch or burned. When peoples backs are to the wall the last thing they care about is the environment.

Rockbeast2

I expect Greta and Sinead O'Connor to sing a duet on a certain Irish show this side of Christmas.

BarryD2

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There will be more real environmental issues as punitive taxation bites deeper. Why pay for rubbish collection when it can be dumped in a ditch or burned. When peoples backs are to the wall the last thing they care about is the environment.

I think some of these aspects of managing the environment are more easily managed. Most people can be persuaded to recyle and dispose of waste properly, litter less and so on. That's relatively easy to address compared to the real problems that Musician refers to above in terms of electricity generation, agriculture and transport, along with increasing demand for consumer goods and so on. These require substantial changes in how we live and in how we work and earn our crust, how we holiday and our life expectations etc. I don't think Irish people are ready to address these matters though. We just want to carry on as we've become accustomed to, wave a magic wand (placard) and be happy we've done enough to make our contribution.

walshb

Just another fad that people have latched onto for attention, likes, approval and a sense of belonging...

The earth is doing fine...the people? #georgecarlin..

Tell me how

MrMusician18 wrote: »

All good ideas, but are tinkering at the edges really.

Carbon is a big problem, and the problem areas are electricity generation, agriculture and transport.

Renewable electricity generation is still more expensive than fossil thermal.
There are no genuine technical solutions that are near cost effective to decarbonise agriculture
And transport - nothing really happening in aviation or road haulage. Can see the electrification of the private fleet, but that just shifts the problem. Irish population is too dispersed for public transport to be efficient.

A big tax on carbon or carbon rationing would force change, but since we cannot magic equivalent low carbon technical solutions out of thin air these would inevitably make the country poorer.

Well, in the meantime we should do what we can instead of saying, there is no point because it won't fix everything.

Also, this is a point which Greta herself has made repeatedly, the large scale solutions do not yet exist to fix all the problems, that is why we need to fund the development of alternative solutions.

She was involved in a video released yesterday which suggests 3 central tenets of the fight to help the climate.

Protect. Restore. Fund.

In that video, the strongest claim to help things immediately, is to plant trees, I have seen this ridiculed in some locations but I think we should be doing it immediately and planting native trees or at least a mix instead of one type of spruce with no variation.

Micky 32

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

MrMusician - how do you expect living standards to stay the same without messing up the whole planet or are you happy to be on that trajectory?

The living standards will be nicely maintained for the rich snobs and the well off in this sh×thole don't you worry, and I'll have to work harder or take less to fund it. Didn't they get a pay rise in the dail lately did I hear correctly? If so it's nicely timed to offset the carbon taxes coming next month..

Rockbeast2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Garlic View Post
There will be more real environmental issues as punitive taxation bites deeper. Why pay for rubbish collection when it can be dumped in a ditch or burned. When peoples backs are to the wall the last thing they care about is the environment.
I think some of these aspects of managing the environment are more easily managed. Most people can be persuaded to recyle and dispose of waste properly, litter less and so on. That's relatively easy to address compared to the real problems that Musician refers to above in terms of electricity generation, agriculture and transport, along with increasing demand for consumer goods and so on. These require substantial changes in how we live and in how we work and earn our crust, how we holiday and our life expectations etc. I don't think Irish people are ready to address these matters though. We just want to carry on as we've become accustomed to, wave a magic wand and be happy we've done enough to make our contribution.

*Just clean up after yourself, guys.

Take all the Phantom sh*tters from that after hours thread and tell them to poo in a field.

Then we don't need to use chemicals to clean up workplaces.

* and the phosphorous in poo is great for the land.

That's my part for Ireland today.

Someone else can save the world...

Tell me how

walshb wrote: »

Just another fad that people have latched onto for attention, likes, approval and a sense of belonging...

The earth is doing fine...the people? #georgecarlin..

Ok, on one side, we have scientists, the other, a comedian...... How do you decide who to listen to? Hmmmm?

Also, he made that statement 10 years ago, things have gotten a lot worse since then, particularly in the area of losing animal species.

Micky 32

Tell me how wrote: »

Ok, on one side, we have scientists, the other, a comedian...... How do you decide who to listen to? Hmmmm?

Also, he made that statement 10 years ago, things have gotten a lot worse since then, particularly in the area of losing animal species.

Animal species go extinct throughout the earth's history.

Rockbeast2

Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.

Tell me how

Micky 32 wrote: »

Animal species go extinct throughout the earth's history.

Yes. Obviously. But we are responsible for that happening at an excessively fast rate.

National Geographic

New research shows that surveyed animal populations have declined by more than 50 percent on average in the last two generations.

Tell me how

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.

Really? By what metric?

Maybe you mean 'quality of life' but even so I'm not sure it's an accurate statement.

MrMusician18

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, in the meantime we should do what we can instead of saying, there is no point because it won't fix everything.

Also, this is a point which Greta herself has made repeatedly, the large scale solutions do not yet exist to fix all the problems, that is why we need to fund the development of alternative solutions.

She was involved in a video released yesterday which suggests 3 central tenets of the fight to help the climate.

Protect. Restore. Fund.

In that video, the strongest claim to help things immediately, is to plant trees, I have seen this ridiculed in some locations but I think we should be doing it immediately and planting native trees or at least a mix instead of one type of spruce with no variation.

Planting trees is great, but it effectively means taking agricultural land out of use for at least 500 years for it to have any carbon benefit. Are these farmers going to be happy to see their income go for the greater good?

I'm all for solutions, but they need to be effective realistic ones.

Tuisceanch

Tuisceanch wrote: »

I keep seeing variants of the following argument "The climate has been changing since time began" insinuating that the human impact on climate change is negligible or irrelevant or that it's even a hoax. This is a very strange argument since nobody with any credibility would dispute that.
An extract from the following link https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/GlobalWarming/page2.php might help to illustrate that point.

"As the Earth moved out of ice ages over the past million years, the global temperature rose a total of 4 to 7 degrees Celsius over about 5,000 years. In the past century alone, the temperature has climbed 0.7 degrees Celsius, roughly ten times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming."

In brief it's the rate of change that is unprecedented. This would be a more useful starting point to base your arguments against the human impact on climate change.

lola85 wrote: »

Seriously who the **** was around 1 million years ago holding a thermometer in the air?

The reply to my post was thanked by three individual posters! Do they all think that measurements of temperature were performed using a thermometer? Surely nobody in this day and age is that ignorant? I can understand someone being skeptical and suspicious about ulterior motives regarding the case for "Anthropogenic Climate Change" and its potential consequences but is this the extent of their argument? Is the educational system really that bad in this country (Republic of Ireland)? I can't believe that is the case so are these people being paid to spout this drivel or are they just trolls. Genuine question because in truth I could do with making some easy money on the side.

Micky 32

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.

Courtesy of the governments you reckon?

SafeSurfer

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-ranked-fourth-in-the-world-for-living-conditions-un-report-finds-1.3629707%3fmode=amp

Pa ElGrande

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnsiZOJjfUg

Huh - I remember the 1980s well and I don't care to repeat that experience.

Tuisceanch

Tell me how wrote: »

Ok, on one side, we have scientists, the other, a comedian...... How do you decide who to listen to? Hmmmm?

Also, he made that statement 10 years ago, things have gotten a lot worse since then, particularly in the area of losing animal species.

In fairness George Carlin was making the point that the earth will adapt to abrupt climate change but humans not so much.. because we are only a recent arrival.

Rockbeast2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockbeast2 View Post
Living standards have gone down in Ireland in last 30 years.
Really? By what metric?

Maybe you mean 'quality of life' but even so I'm not sure it's an accurate statement.

I'll tell you exactly how.

Very few of my peers can afford kids. That's with him and her working good jobs.

The ones that can have to put their kids in creches from 3 months old.

* You're correct, "quality of life"

Time is all you've got, and there's not so much anymore.

** Not fighting with you :-)

Tell me how

Tuisceanch wrote: »

The reply to my post was thanked by three individual posters! Do they all think that measurements of temperature were performed using a thermometer? Surely nobody in this day and age is that ignorant? I can understand someone being skeptical and suspicious about ulterior motives regarding the case for "Anthropogenic Climate Change" and its potential consequences but is this the extent of their argument? Is the educational system really that bad in this country (Republic of Ireland)? I can't believe that is the case so are these people being paid to spout this drivel or are they just trolls. Genuine question because in truth I could do with making some easy money on the side.

I think there are a certain group within society who always adopt the opposing view for various reasons. They don't like the idea of any change being imposed on them (whether or not that would be a material change is irrelevant even) and so they automatically try to discredit anything which they disagree with and support others who do the same.

If they are demonstrating that they don't know how scientists have been able to determine what temperatures were before we had the presence of scientists to do it in real time, you're really not arguing with any form of intellect.

They mostly do appear on anonymous forums, they obviously exist in real life, but for some reason keep their beliefs much more to themselves. It would be easier for us all if they were public about how they don't understand science or rational thought, but, it's one of the disadvantages of the internet we all must put up with.